General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fuzeman on February 03, 2023, 09:53:54 AM
Title: Spy ballons.
Post by: fuzeman on February 03, 2023, 09:53:54 AM
Seems we have a balloon hovering over central US mucking up airport flights. Supposedly a Chinese spy gizmotch. Seems silly to let it keep doing it’s thing but what do I know.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Chris79 on February 03, 2023, 09:56:28 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 03, 2023, 10:01:33 AM
Gotta wonder why we don't take it out
Guess it hasn't completed its mission...
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
According to an article I read this morning they left it up because they were worried about dropping it on a populated area. Given that it is over Montana I find that to be a bit spurious. There isn't that much population to be that picky about where to drop the damn thing.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Shuffler on February 03, 2023, 10:14:12 AM
Our security issue is our government. I just shake my head when they require us manufacturers to jump through security hoops while they leak our secrets to our enemies.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Meatwad on February 03, 2023, 10:32:15 AM
Its in US airspace. Shoot it down.
But doing so will offend someone so we cant do that because of hurting their feelings..........
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Volron on February 03, 2023, 11:08:38 AM
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 03, 2023, 11:23:15 AM
Where's all the guys here with those powerful telescopes? Let's see some better images than what the media is putting out.
Coogan
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Nefarious on February 03, 2023, 11:30:02 AM
News story I saw said don't be alarmed..It's not the first time this has happened and has happened under several administrations.
Spy Satellites or aircraft.. OK. But this is the first time in my life I've ever heard of any foreign power using spy ballons on us. To brush it off like this is alarming.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: turt21 on February 03, 2023, 04:20:00 PM
It cant be for survielance they have lots of satellites . However it would be a great way to drop some disease or virus . I would shoot it down 200 mi offshore.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: guncrasher on February 03, 2023, 04:25:45 PM
It cant be for survielance they have lots of satellites . However it would be a great way to drop some disease or virus . I would shoot it down 200 mi offshore.
ever heard of the kiss principle? no? look it up.
what is wrong with diplomatic mail?
zemp
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Busher on February 03, 2023, 05:01:47 PM
According to an article I read this morning they left it up because they were worried about dropping it on a populated area. Given that it is over Montana I find that to be a bit spurious. There isn't that much population to be that picky about where to drop the damn thing.
1.1 million people live in Montana but I guess you don't care if the wreckage of a vehicle the size of 3 city buses were to kill one of them.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 03, 2023, 05:50:21 PM
When the media runs with a version of one story that ends up being false and waits almost two years to retract and admit they were wrong, we ALL should be suspicious. But, nahh they’re not complicit and involved in anything nefarious
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 03, 2023, 08:43:20 PM
I'm going with an alien ship that is stuck here and their cloaking device has failed. China and the world are covering it up ;)
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 03, 2023, 08:50:31 PM
When the media runs with a version of one story that ends up being false and waits almost two years to retract and admit they were wrong, we ALL should be suspicious. But, nahh they’re not complicit and involved in anything nefarious
:rolleyes:
He doesn't care about any of that nonsense as long as he gets his check every month.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Meatwad on February 03, 2023, 08:52:55 PM
You are wrong. Its Rosie Odonnell after an all you can eat buffet at golden corral
Apparently I got a rule 4 hit on my post above. One of the certain posters in this thread didnt like it
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 03, 2023, 09:06:15 PM
This happened, though it doesn't appear to have hit the "balloon" Seems like a warning shot to the aliens to hurry it up.
1.1 million people live in Montana but I guess you don't care if the wreckage of a vehicle the size of 3 city buses were to kill one of them.
Way more than that live in other cities in other states, but you know that. Other states have population densities far higher than Montana where it would be far harder to drop a balloon on open ground, but you know that also. Try to not be so pedantic.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 04, 2023, 08:55:46 AM
Way more than that live in other cities in other states, but you know that. Other states have population densities far higher than Montana where it would be far harder to drop a balloon on open ground, but you know that also. Try to not be so pedantic.
Just to confirm… you’re ok with someone dying over it?
It should have been dealt with way before it entered airspace over land.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RotBaron on February 04, 2023, 09:10:31 AM
1.1 million people live in Montana but I guess you don't care if the wreckage of a vehicle the size of 3 city buses were to kill one of them.
Proactive action would not have let it cross from over water to US soil…
Many of us here understand how/why that happened, however based on many of your previous comments I imagine you will find excuses why it was allowed to become problematic.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: icepac on February 04, 2023, 09:16:18 AM
If they are going to shoot it down, it should be done by the least capable interceptor in the inventory…….or vulch it right before it lands.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 09:22:02 AM
Not sure what the jingoistic panic is about. This seems laughably low tech. Almost SteamPunk.
What about this is more frightening than the hundreds of other countries spy satellites that over fly our country multiple times a day? Why is a balloon a bigger threat than a satellite?
It’s operating at an altitude far above commercial traffic as far as I know. Doesn’t appear to be a threat to navigation. There is no evidence of it being a weapon system.
It is operating at an altitude in the ballpark of what our U2 and SR71 operate which we’ve flown over other countries more ties than can be counted.
The US has been promoting the Open Skies doctrine for decades. It’s been our belief that the ability of nations to surveil each other leads to more stable peace. It reduces the odds of a miscalculation based on fears an adversary is preparing for a first strike against them. It should be in our and China’s interest that we can surviel each other. That’s what we’ve been telling other countries for decades.
Strangely, there does not appear to be any established internationally agreed upon upper limit on sovereign airspace. We claim ~60k ft but China claims all of the South China Sea. Claiming something doesn’t make it reasonable. We extend our territorial waters 12 mi off shore horizontally. Based on that, a reasonable sovereign airspace limit might be 12 mi above the surface vertically. That’s right about where this thing is drifting I believe.
It’s certainly a gray enough area that we should refrain from blowing stuff up unless it is posing an immediate threat. By our own standards we shouldn’t care if we are survielled. I think we should have treaties defining an agreed upon airspace limit before we start shooting stuff down. What if China wants to claim that space shuttle and ISS overflights of it’s country are threat? What if they claim their airspace extends 200k miles?
It seems to me that the current course of action is the most prudent. Track it. Monitor it. Have to ability to destroy it if it becomes a threat. Otherwise avoid knee-jerk overreaction.
Believe me, I hate the Chinese government. They do plenty I think is beyond the pale. This just doesn’t seem to rate very high up my list. Thankfully, those charged with our national defense are a little more prudent than some of our chest-thumping internet whack-jobs.
Is there some piece of information I am missing?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 04, 2023, 09:58:31 AM
Yes the unknown purpose of such a flight
As it could be anything lets act like it is nothing as that is the easiest course of action...not surprised
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 10:06:10 AM
As it could be anything lets act like it is nothing as that is the easiest course of action...not surprised
It is not being treated as it is nothing. It is being tracked and monitored. If it was determined to be an actual threat, it would be dealt with.
It is being treated as a third world spy satellite. That is the proper reaction at the moment. If the situation changes, the stance can change.
[edit] Anything more than that and we would need to explain why we felt free to fly U2 and SR71 over other countries at similar altitudes.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Nefarious on February 04, 2023, 10:55:35 AM
It's kind of similar to what I've learned and read on Sputnik. I'm sure there were people who felt like it wasn't a threat either but present day textbooks (or at least those of the mid 90s) memorialized it as one of the highest points of the red scare.
This is kind of different when it comes to the fact it can be seen with the naked eye and I'll admit I was kind of shook when I saw it in a news video Thursday evening.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 04, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Then let's send one over china and don't stop there Russia needs a spy balloon from us too..it's all the latest craze you know..
Let's see what they do when their airspace is invaded
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 04, 2023, 11:10:22 AM
This is kind of different when it comes to the fact it can be seen with the naked eye and I'll admit I was kind of shook when I saw it in a news video Thursday evening.
Like Sputnik could be seen with the naked-eye. It's just a fad uninformed overreaction. It's jsut something unusual for the internet whacks to get jiggy about. If you told people we have detected a spy satellite over-flying our country, they would just yawn.
In fact most spy satellites can also be seen with the naked eye if you know where and when to look in the morning or evening sky where they catch the sun against a dark sky. As they move across the terminator into the Earth's shadow they fade out. There is software you can download that will tell you where and when to look to spot them. Some are communication, some are weather, some are suspected spy satellites.
I started that hobby while waiting for skies to fully darken to use the telescope. It's amazing how many satellites you can spot if you know where and when to look on a given evening. 99.999% of people never bother to look up and watch.
Sooner or later the news will move on to some culture war outrage and this will be forgotten by the unwashed masses.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 04, 2023, 11:40:34 AM
CptTrips did you catch the comet?
Any pictures if you did?
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 11:47:06 AM
I'm well aware that satellites can be seen and used to keep an ISS tracker app on my phone years ago, it also had other satellites if I remember correctly.
I had to google about Sputniks visibility, from what I quickly read, there were some accounts of people seeing the soviet rocket motor/booster that carried Sputnik. But the much much smaller satellite was very difficult to see even in the best conditions with optics.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 12:13:04 PM
I remember reading article about people going out on their lawns to see it when the local radio man told them it was gong to be overhead.
You're not seeing the actual structure but it's reflected light just like any other satellite or ISS, or Starlink. Yeah, to actually resolve the structure you'd need serious optics. You're seeing something like a mirror flash from a long way away but moving across the sky. Low orbit stuff moves really quick so you only have a couple minutes spot it.
Quote
Though Sputnik 1 was small, it was quite reflective and therefore visible from Earth through a pair of binoculars (and perhaps even with the naked eye, if you had good vision and knew exactly where to look).
The trick is know where and when to look. They are easy to miss if you are not paying attention and often might just be mistaken for an aircraft (except they don't blink.) So you'd either need a news man to telling you or software they didn't have then.
But plenty of regular people saw Sputnik. That's part of what drove the hysteria.
My eye sight ain't great but I've spotted up to 12 satellites on an evening with software. Not hard if you know the alt and azimuth and local time to pick up your tracking.
Quote
Not only could you hear Sputnik, but, depending on where you were, it was possible to see it with the naked eye on certain days in the early morning or the late evening when the Sun was still close enough to the horizon to illuminate it.
Seriously. Is one balloon with an oversized GoPro hanging off it really worth getting hysterical over?
It's amusing and unusual, but not worth going into the fallout shelter over.
I think the point that many are trying to make is what kind of precedence is set by allowing this thing to invade our airspace in the first place. It really does not matter how harmless you think it is.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 12:36:59 PM
I think the point that many are trying to make is what kind of precedence is set by allowing this thing to invade our airspace in the first place. It really does not matter how harmless you think it is.
It is at an altitude we have flown U2 and SR71 over other countries.
Perhaps we have already set the precedence.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: icepac on February 04, 2023, 12:41:03 PM
It would be a shame if it didn’t get some graffiti sprayed on it.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 12:57:15 PM
It is at an altitude we have flown U2 and SR71 over other countries.
Perhaps we have already set the precedence.
That we're better spies? I hope so. But, if the Soviets had the capability to stop us they would have. I guess you don't have an opinion on the concern over precedence?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2023, 01:01:13 PM
Interesting things going on in Flightradar24. (https://www.flightradar24.com/2f143df1) The 2nd balloon is over Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Air traffic was closed over the area. However, there is one plane with no callsign making a bunch of circles there. Military aircraft for sure, eh?
(https://i.imgur.com/iMClc2J.png)
Coogan
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: TyFoo on February 04, 2023, 01:03:10 PM
Strangely, there does not appear to be any established internationally agreed upon upper limit on sovereign airspace. We claim ~60k ft but China claims all of the South China Sea. Claiming something doesn’t make it reasonable. We extend our territorial waters 12 mi off shore horizontally. Based on that, a reasonable sovereign airspace limit might be 12 mi above the surface vertically. That’s right about where this thing is drifting I believe.
It’s certainly a gray enough area that we should refrain from blowing stuff up unless it is posing an immediate threat. By our own standards we shouldn’t care if we are survielled. I think we should have treaties defining an agreed upon airspace limit before we start shooting stuff down. What if China wants to claim that space shuttle and ISS overflights of it’s country are threat? What if they claim their airspace extends 200k miles?
I don't disagree with the points that you have made, but in regard to Sovereign airspace - There is no gray area. The Chicago Convention established the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) back in the mid 1940's. Which China is a part of. That agreement established Sovereign airspace over each country. Whether it is recognized or not is another story.
As far as U.S. Military aircraft capabilities, the F15, and the F22 have service ceilings in the mid 60s.
The fact that the balloon has been over the U.S. for more than a few days tells you the capability/ ability of China to manipulate the winds to navigate the balloon.
Google did a lot of experimentation with this over the last 10 years. They put balloons up into the air and learned to move them up and down to keep the balloons within a specific geographical region for days and possibly weeks. The idea was to provide internet/ cell service to remote areas. If I remember correctly they did deploy this technology over Puerto Rico after one of the hurricanes.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 01:05:20 PM
So you admit we do exactly the same thing. Gotcha.
No, this doesn't particularly concern me. I believe it is being monitored and tracked by our military. As long as it is not a weapon system or drops down into airline traffic space, then I consider it relatively benign, because I believe in the Open Skies philosophy. I believe countries conducting surveillance on each other creates a more stable peace. Which is why I'm ok with our spy satellites and recon flights.
At least the government didn't try and claim it was swamp gas. :cool:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 01:07:27 PM
I don't disagree with the points that you have made, but in regard to Sovereign airspace - There is no gray area. The Chicago Convention established the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) back in the mid 1940's. Which China is a part of. That agreement established Sovereign airspace over each country. Whether it is recognized or not is another story.
"Civil aviation"
And did we over-fly other countries with U2 and SR71 after that agreement?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eviscerate on February 04, 2023, 01:10:19 PM
Interesting things going on in Flightradar24. (https://www.flightradar24.com/2f143df1) The 2nd balloon is over Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Air traffic was closed over the area. However, there is one plane with no callsign making a bunch of circles there. Military aircraft for sure, eh?
(https://i.imgur.com/iMClc2J.png)
Coogan
Yes I think it's safe to say a plane operated by the USAF is military.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2023, 01:11:29 PM
Hence, I stated "Whether its recoginized or not is another story"
But that agreement was civil aviation, right?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2023, 01:40:49 PM
They just shot down the balloon over the Atlantic. (The one near Myrtle Beach). Here is the path of a military aircraft just after downing the balloon. Reports are that a missle took down the balloon.
So you admit we do exactly the same thing. Gotcha.
No, this doesn't particularly concern me. I believe it is being monitored and tracked by our military. As long as it is not a weapon system or drops down into airline traffic space, then I consider it relatively benign, because I believe in the Open Skies philosophy. I believe countries conducting surveillance on each other creates a more stable peace. Which is why I'm ok with our spy satellites and recon flights.
At least the government didn't try and claim it was swamp gas. :cool:
So much for your "open skies" approach when a weapon disguised as a surveillance craft shows up.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 01:48:31 PM
I wonder if anyone has considered this might have been an intentional provocation to get us to over-react.
I hope it doesn't turn out to be a bunch of meteorological equipment.
Oh well, the big bag balloon is popped.
Americans can go back to Kardashians and Tucker Carlson now. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 01:49:36 PM
I wonder if anyone has considered this might have been an intentional provocation to get us to over-react.
I hope it doesn't turn out to be a bunch of meteorological equipment.
Oh well, the big bag balloon is popped.
Americans can go back to Kardashians and Tucker Carlson now. :rolleyes:
We'd never be having this conversation, or had it been taken out when it first entered our airspace, now would we? So are you ok with Joe doing it now?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 01:54:42 PM
We'd never be having this conversation, or had it been taken out when it first entered our airspace, now would we? So are you ok with Joe doing it now?
Wait. Just a sec.
You said is was a weapons system disguised as a surveillance balloon.
You have proof there were weapons on board?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2023, 01:55:12 PM
Doesn't have to be bombs on board those balloons. Those things could've very easily been carrying some type of biological weapon, and China hoping we'd shoot them down over land.
Coogan
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 01:56:10 PM
You said is was a weapons system disguised as a surveillance balloon.
You have proof there were weapons on board?
I never said that. I was referring to your "open skies" approach to our airspace. Stop trying to spin my statements. Or maybe take a reading comprehension course.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:02:06 PM
Under any circumstance. I wasn't referring to this baloon.
You said,
Quote
So much for your "open skies" approach when a weapon disguised as a surveillance craft shows up.
So you are now admitting there is no evidence this balloon was carrying weapons.
At least you are learning. :rofl
I'm leaning toward intentional provocation. We can track softball sized objects in orbit. They would surely realize we could track something the size of 3 city buses.
And no, this doesn't change my view on Open Skies. I believe countries constantly surveilling each other in a non-harmful manner creates a more stable peace. Nothing that has occurred changes my opinion on that.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: AKIron on February 04, 2023, 02:09:30 PM
98 Chinese balloons in the sky, 98 Chinese balloons. You shoot one down....
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:12:00 PM
Doesn't have to be bombs on board those balloons. Those things could've very easily been carrying some type of biological weapon, and China hoping we'd shoot them down over land.
Coogan
exactly. We just do not know. I personally do not think we should allow balloons from foreign nations to float across the United States.
I'm not in charge and I don't have all the information, but if all I knew was that it was from China and that we do not know what's on board or what it's mission is, I'd shoot it down. You might risk a life doing so, but we have to protect the nation. That's how stuff works. Nothing is without risk. Cops kill people all the time when trying to stop crimes. It's a risk. You can't be frozen in fear of acting.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 02:14:07 PM
You said, So you are now admitting there is no evidence this balloon was carrying weapons.
At least you are learning. :rofl
I'm leaning toward intentional provocation. We can track softball sized objects in orbit. They would surely realize we could track something the size of 3 city buses.
And no, this doesn't change my view on Open Skies. I believe countries constantly surveilling each other in a non-harmful manner creates a more stable peace. Nothing that has occurred changes my opinion on that.
How old are you?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:16:50 PM
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 04, 2023, 02:30:09 PM
one observation.
To me it looks like they hit the balloon itself, and that there would be no "large" debris field. I'm thinking the "400 mile debris field" excuse was a lie.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:31:00 PM
Quote
Using balloons as spy platforms goes back to the early days of the Cold War. Since then, the US has used hundreds of them to monitor its adversaries, said Peter Layton, a fellow at the Griffith Asia Institute in Australia and former Royal Australian Air Force officer.
If it turn out to be a weapon system, then I will change my mind.
If it's just a surveillance balloon, I think the situation isn't worth the ord since we've done it hundreds of times with balloons and SR71 and U2. You've certainly given them cover to shoot down a US recon plane that strays or is simply in airspace they "claim". Like South China Sea or Strait of Taiwan.
Worse case is it was an intentional provocation and purposely filled with meteorological equipment. They will have a publicity bonanza characterizing the US as an out of control war-mongering pariah shooting down unarmed weather balloons like gun-crazed madmen.
Shrug.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 04, 2023, 02:37:28 PM
If it turn out to be a weapon system, then I will change my mind.
If it's just a surveillance balloon, I think the situation isn't worth the ord since we've done it hundreds of times with balloons and SR71 and U2. You've certainly given them cover to shoot down a US recon plane that strays or is simply in airspace they "claim". Like South China Sea or Strait of Taiwan.
Worse case is it was an intentional provocation and purposely filled with meteorological equipment. They will have a publicity bonanza characterizing the US as an out of control war-mongering pariah shooting down unarmed weather balloons like gun-crazed madmen.
Shrug.
Seems to be just the opposite effect.
also, how would you know it was a weapon system or not? Would you just allow them to continue floating balloons over then? It looks like the people in charge acted to shoot it down, so I'm glad they didn't take your approach.
The Chinese are already making fun of the fact that the United States can't even defend against a balloon.
Uncensored reactions on the Chinese internet mirrored the official government stance that the U.S. was hyping the situation. Some used it as a chance to poke fun at U.S. defenses, saying it couldn’t even defend against a balloon, and nationalist influencers leapt to use the news to mock the U.S.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:41:14 PM
So, old enough that you cannot comprehend my statements, yet young enough to resort to childish spin tactics.
Annnnnnnnd you still haven't answered the original question.
Do you have evidence that this balloon carried weapons?
You can try and squirm out of it, but you aren't fooling anyone.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 04, 2023, 02:53:53 PM
How refreshing to have some calm, steady leadership for something like this. Prez have the go ahead to shoot it down when it was safe. He didn’t need any all caps tweets all week long or outrageously nonsensical statements.
:salute
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 02:54:52 PM
Annnnnnnnd you still haven't answered the original question.
Do you have evidence that this balloon carried weapons?
You can squirm out of it, but you aren't fooling anyone.
I never said it did. How many times do I have to tell you that. I stated that your "open skies" approach might invite a weaponized craft disguised as a surveillance craft. Let me copy this so I can paste it again for you later.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 02:57:37 PM
How refreshing to have some calm, steady leadership for something like this. Prez have the go ahead to shoot it down when it was safe. He didn’t need any all caps tweets all week long or outrageously nonsensical statements.
:salute
Is that the latest spin. I haven't been watching?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 02:58:30 PM
I never said it did. How many times do I have to tell you that. I stated that your "open skies" approach might invite a weaponized craft disguised as a surveillance craft. Let me copy this so I can paste it again for you later.
Let me simplify it for you so you don't have to squirm so hard.
No, you don't have any evidence there were weapons on board that balloon.
You tried every other way to phrase it than that.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 04, 2023, 02:59:52 PM
Let me simplify it for you so you don't have to squirm so hard.
No, you don't have any evidence there were weapons on board that balloon.
You tried every other way to phrase it than that.
To be fair, you do not have any idea if it carried any kind of weapon either, but you had no problem allowing it to fly across the entire United States. I don't think that's a wise approach at all.
You cannot guess about what is on a balloon with such a massive payload. The sensible thing to do would gave been to shoot it down. Sooner rather than later.
Reports are saying that we tracked this before it even entered US airspace. it flew over very remote areas. When we finally did shoot it down, there was no debris field (apparently) since they simply "popped" the balloon and the whole thing fell down (apparently) in one piece.
I think the whole idea of doing nothing while it flew across the US shows more weakness than anything else.
We'll see.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 03:06:11 PM
To be fair, you do not have any idea if it carried any kind of weapon either, but you had no problem allowing it to fly across the entire United States. I don't think that's a wise approach at all.
You cannot guess about what is on a balloon with such a massive payload. The sensible thing to do would gave been to shoot it down. Sooner rather than later.
Reports are saying that we tracked this before it even entered US airspace. it flew over very remote areas. When we finally did shoot it down, there was no debris field (apparently) since they simply "popped" the balloon and the whole thing fell down (apparently) in one piece.
I think the whole idea of doing nothing while it flew across the US shows more weakness than anything else.
We'll see.
Stop, gg. He's not going understand what you're saying. I don't mean that as he has to agree with you either. He literally is not going to understand your statement.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 04, 2023, 03:10:34 PM
To be fair, you do not have any idea if it carried any kind of weapon either, but you had no problem allowing it to fly across the entire United States. I don't think that's a wise approach at all.
You cannot guess about what is on a balloon with such a massive payload. The sensible thing to do would gave been to shoot it down. Sooner rather than later.
Reports are saying that we tracked this before it even entered US airspace. it flew over very remote areas. When we finally did shoot it down, there was no debris field (apparently) since they simply "popped" the balloon and the whole thing fell down (apparently) in one piece.
I think the whole idea of doing nothing while it flew across the US shows more weakness than anything else.
We'll see.
So just to be clear… you’re okay with the possibility of Americans dying over the ballon? The debris field was reported to be 7 miles wide. What if they did want us to shoot it down and it had something in it? But you don’t care because not having a knee jerk reaction seems weaker.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 03:13:16 PM
So just to be clear… you’re okay with the possibility of Americans dying over the ballon? The debris field was reported to be 7 miles wide. What if they did want us to shoot it down and it had something in it? But you don’t care because not having a knee jerk reaction seems weaker.
Or this could have been done before it made it over the lower 48? That's assuming we were concerned about a debris field.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 04, 2023, 03:17:52 PM
It think it’s time to put this one to bed anyway! :D
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Puma44 on February 04, 2023, 03:27:14 PM
I N :bolt:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 03:31:00 PM
Let me simplify it for you so you don't have to squirm so hard.
No, you don't have any evidence there were weapons on board that balloon.
You tried every other way to phrase it than that.
I was pretty obvious to me that he wasn't claiming there were weapons on board, rather that "what happens IF such a "benign" balloon shows up with weapons on it".
Quote
So much for your "open skies" approach when a weapon disguised as a surveillance craft shows up.
Elementary school level grammar comprehension should make it obvious that the word "shows" is referring to a future event.
The USN should probably have a good chance at recovering a lot of the equipment, the water is apparently only 50 feet deep in the area where the debris field is located.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: AKIron on February 04, 2023, 05:42:21 PM
Provocation, intelligence gathering, or?
Almost a certainty it was no accident as China claimed.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: AKIron on February 04, 2023, 05:46:25 PM
China flew over and the dogs are barking.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 06:10:28 PM
I was pretty obvious to me that he wasn't claiming there were weapons on board, rather that "what happens IF such a "benign" balloon shows up with weapons on it".
That's not how I read it. If so, then I apologize.
Of course when asked the question, "Do you have any evidence that there were weapons on that balloon?" The straight forward honest answer would have been, "No, I don't have any evidence that there were weapons on board that balloon."
Elementary school level grammar comprehension should make it obvious that the word "shows" is referring to a future event.
I disagree. There is nothing in that wording that would preclude this being one of those events where a benign looking surveillance balloon shows up that is really a weapon.
"So I'm sitting in my apartment, and my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends." Is that referring so some future event?
Perhaps you need to brush up on elementary school level grammar comprehension.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: AKIron on February 04, 2023, 06:17:28 PM
Quote
"So I'm sitting in my apartment, and my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends." Is that referring so some future event?
Only if you're lucky.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 06:21:38 PM
That's not how I read it. If so, then I apologize.
Of course when asked the question, "Do you have any evidence that there were weapons on that balloon?" The straight forward honest answer would have been, "No, I don't have any evidence that there were weapons on board that balloon."
I disagree. There is nothing in that wording that would preclude this being one of those events where a benign looking surveillance balloon shows up that is really a weapon.
"So I'm sitting in my apartment, and my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends." Is that referring so some future event?
Perhaps you need to brush up on elementary school level grammar comprehension.
Dear Lord, help this man.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 04, 2023, 07:27:47 PM
I was pretty obvious to me that he wasn't claiming there were weapons on board, rather that "what happens IF such a "benign" balloon shows up with weapons on it".
Elementary school level grammar comprehension should make it obvious that the word "shows" is referring to a future event.
The USN should probably have a good chance at recovering a lot of the equipment, the water is apparently only 50 feet deep in the area where the debris field is located.
Thanks Gman, I just got tired of trying.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2023, 08:29:45 PM
That's not how I read it. If so, then I apologize.
Of course when asked the question, "Do you have any evidence that there were weapons on that balloon?" The straight forward honest answer would have been, "No, I don't have any evidence that there were weapons on board that balloon."
I disagree. There is nothing in that wording that would preclude this being one of those events where a benign looking surveillance balloon shows up that is really a weapon.
"So I'm sitting in my apartment, and my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends." Is that referring so some future event?
Perhaps you need to brush up on elementary school level grammar comprehension.
Quote
"So I'm sitting in my apartment, and my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends." Is that referring so some future event?
No, it's present tense, which is a poor example to use to compare with a future tense sentence. "So I'll be sitting in my apartment, when my girlfriend shows up with two of her hot friends" is the example you should have written, instead of creating one using "and/shows" like you did, but you didn't want to do that as it would destroy your incorrect argument.
Read what he wrote again. He specifically used the word "when" prior to "shows", which modifies the tense of "shows", and is obviously indicative of a future/hypothetical event. "When" in this case is a conditional conjunction of time. For example - "When your missing cat shows back up". When/Shows, future tense, not present, not past.
Had he written "showed" instead of using "when/shows" in the original comment:
Quote
So much for your "open skies" approach when a weapon disguised as a surveillance craft shows up.
like this :
Quote
So much for your "open skies" approach, a weapon disguised as a surveillance craft showed up.
you would have an argument. He didn't. You don't.
"The balloon will go away when it's hit by an Aim9X". When. Future.
Care to go on?
It's painfully obvious to everyone here except you that you're using this whole "you said it had a weapon, you did, you did, you did!!" BS as a 1st rate example of gaslighting. Sad, as you actually made one comment that was insightful IMO, referring to China using the balloons in order to measure the USA's response. You devalue that though with this childish behavior.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: nrshida on February 05, 2023, 02:19:03 AM
referring to China using the balloons in order to measure the USA's response.
害怕的 :noid
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 05, 2023, 06:46:22 AM
Not sure why or how anyone is ok with china floating anything over us after their present in 2020
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: mechanic on February 05, 2023, 07:14:43 AM
I hate to have to point out the obvious but they are all in it together. The concept of nations is purely to keep Earth's population suspicious of each other. To avoid a unity that would change the way we all live for the better.
If one nation has a 'spy balloon' over another nation's airspace, reported so freely by the media, in an age when satellites can photograph your children playing in the back yard anyway... you can be sure it is to make you think the way they intend you to think.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: fuzeman on February 05, 2023, 07:40:20 AM
I’d think an inert or non-explosive missile would have degraded the thing to where it could come down slower lessening the ‘it fell on me and I’m dead’ part and increasing the ‘this is what it was’ part but again… what do I know.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 08:04:00 AM
I wonder how many drones they could fit on something the size of three school buses? Drones could be dropped from them and carry out precision strikes against god -knows what. Not that the Chinese would want their fingerprints on an actual attack like that, but what about some other country or terrorists group?
A lot of possibilities with balloons.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 08:13:15 AM
"So, I'm sitting in my apartment when my girlfriend shows up with two hot friends."
That is using both "when" and "shows" and is not referring to future events. That is a perfectly valid sentence. You don't like it because it disproves your point. Tough.
Welcome to the ignore list. You can pitch and Rush can catch to your hearts content.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Eagler on February 05, 2023, 08:22:26 AM
That's pretty much it batfink
Explains the crazy in the most probable light
Eagler
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: nrshida on February 05, 2023, 08:44:20 AM
The concept of nations is purely to keep Earth's population suspicious of each other. To avoid a unity that would change the way we all live for the better.
Commie! :old:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Nefarious on February 05, 2023, 09:41:29 AM
I wonder how many drones they could fit on something the size of three school buses? Drones could be dropped from them and carry out precision strikes against god -knows what. Not that the Chinese would want their fingerprints on an actual attack like that, but what about some other country or terrorists group?
A lot of possibilities with balloons.
Valid point.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RotBaron on February 05, 2023, 09:48:52 AM
I hate to have to point out the obvious but they are all in it together. The concept of nations is purely to keep Earth's population suspicious of each other. To avoid a unity that would change the way we all live for the better.
If one nation has a 'spy balloon' over another nation's airspace, reported so freely by the media, in an age when satellites can photograph your children playing in the back yard anyway... you can be sure it is to make you think the way they intend you to think.
Hmmm
I’m trying to apply that to Russia at the moment, I don’t think Ukraine(ians) feel that way or Pakistan feels that way about India, vice versa…
How about Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram…
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Maverick on February 05, 2023, 09:53:28 AM
Just to confirm… you’re ok with someone dying over it?
It should have been dealt with way before it entered airspace over land.
Please quote my post where I said I "was ok with someone dying over it". As an aside here I hope you will realize that I am responsible for what I actually say / write, not what you infer or imagine, that are your issues to deal with
Even the MT governor said there was plenty of open ground, especially in the Eastern part of the state where it would have been OK to shoot it down.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: guncrasher on February 05, 2023, 10:14:32 AM
while you guys argue over China, we have american patriots trying to burn our schools
semp
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 10:30:20 AM
It's possible the whole thing was filled with hard candy like a piñata. That's "possible".
It just doesn't pass the smell test. It's obvious we can track that all the way from China even if it wasn't publicly announced. I have faith in NORAD.
It would be an exceedingly poor, slow, vulnerable, easily traceable weapons platform. I doubt it has much additional bomb load capacity. There are just some many better ways of smuggling any weapon you are imagining without it being so easily traceable back to them.
It doesn't even make much sense to me as a surveillance platform. They have plenty satellites. So do the Russians(spit) and I assume they are buddy buddy and share intel.
All that is possible, but just seems bizzarro and would imply the Chinese aren't as smart as I gave them credit for. That is possible too.
The highest probability is that is was a surveillance balloon, but it just seems hard to understand why. In the past the CIA used them to collect air samples to look for evidence of nuclear testing. I think the Chinese know we have nukes.
It does make me very suspicious if this was designed to create a embarrassing propaganda trap for the US. Build something that looks scary. Launch it knowing it will be easily trackable. Make it transmit weird signals that play on our paranoia. Goad them on the internet until they shoot it down. Then wait until the US has to sheepishly announce that it was just filled with meteorological equipment. Then use that incident as a propaganda weapon in the coming year as thing heat up around Taiwan. Portraying the US as dangerous war mongering and trigger happy. Shooting down innocent weather balloons. Gives them political cover for shooting down a US recon plane over the South China Sea which they claim as their territory. Tit for tat. That's the only scenario that would make sense to me given the facts. A propaganda ploy to embarrass the US. It would be very Sun Ztu. I just fear we are being played.
I'm not saying it was an immoral or illegal act to shoot it down. Certainly better to do it over water, but probably would have been better over Alaska. It's low odds it would hit anything in Alaska. Maybe a moose. If there was any fear it was a weapon system the military would not have waited while it crossed the entire land mass of the United States. If it was surveillance, then then the benefits of a shoot down are less clear. You always have to weigh what you gain vs what it might cost. I certainly don't want to hand them a propaganda win.
But honestly, I'm somewhat glad they shot it down because now I am REALLY curious as to what's in it. :D
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 11:17:08 AM
You need to read about the capabilities of balloons. In some cases they are more effective than satellites. Especially when it comes to picking up radio transmissions or other communications. They can also get in for better pictures. Or they can jam things and test responses. There's a million things that they can do that a satellite probably can't do as well. Also they can loiter over an area longer. And they are much cheaper than putting a satellite over a target.
And they're not easy to shoot down either. That F-22 that shot it down was at its maximum service ceiling and was still well under it when it hit it with the missile. And that was at about 60 to 65,000 ft. The raptor was at about 58,000 they said 55,000 maybe? That's above its reported maximum altitude.
There are definitely advantages that balloons have.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 11:18:16 AM
And a big advantage is that they could drop drones. Along their route and I doubt the drones would be easy to detect. A satellite couldn't do that. But they could drop a drone and bring it very close to a Target. Probably undetected.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 11:20:15 AM
There are definitely advantages that balloons have.
So that is an argument for a surveillance balloon not a weapons platform. That is probably the highest likelihood.
It will be interesting to see what they find.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 11:23:04 AM
Both. I just googled it for the hell of it and found that US spy balloons can carry suicide drones, like dropping a bunch of killer bees from a beehive. In that article they said the Chinese could do the same. And of course they could. Think about it. Even a few stealth drones dropped over its path and controlled from the balloon would be pretty interesting.
The other thing that the balloon could be doing would be testing defenses.
No matter what it was doing, it's a threat. Shouldn't be allowed in our airspace.
It also said in the article that it could be a test run for an attack. I mean an EMP attack would be devastating and those things could carry that for sure. A lot less detectable than a ICBM..
I mean you can just Google the stuff. It's not hard. I use my own brain just out of curiosity to think of what a balloon might be able to do and then I googled stuff. It's not hard
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 11:26:25 AM
My issue is that there is limited utility in arguing about what was in it at this point because there is no evidence yet. When they dredge it up, then we can talk about what was found on it.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 11:46:56 AM
I think the only argument (maybe I'm wrong) is from you downplaying the POTENTIAL threat of these balloons. Of THIS balloon
There is a reason why the balloon was tracked by NORAD and determined (after seeing how it maneuvered and it's target areas) that they needed to notify the President. Things like this do not normally go right to the president. And how many times have you ever heard of us shooting down a surveillance balloon?
what we do know is that it was considered enough of a threat to be shot down and recovered. Biden wanted to shoot it down over Montana.
You seem to be waiting for it to be discovered that it had some kind of weapon on board before you'll even conceded that these balloons should be considered a threat.
Just the potential of what could be on board - now or in the future, is enough.
My guess is that we are not just going to allow balloons to float across the United States without doing something about it.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Meatwad on February 05, 2023, 11:55:38 AM
You think that's wacky stuff? It came from serious sources. I just am on my cell phone right now and too lazy to link stuff.
I don't know what your issue is. Seems like you're just trying to downplay any possibility that it's any kind of threat. That's pretty ignorant.
Even if we don't know exactly what was on board, the possibilities make it a threat. You got to realize that, right?
Some people rather stick their head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong and listen to what certain sources spoon feed them, rather then face reality over some situations. Then act all shocked when it then becomes an incident that is too late to prevent and scream about how they never saw it coming and why didn't anyone do something to prevent it
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Gman on February 05, 2023, 11:55:47 AM
Ward Carroll made a decent vid regarding the shoot down today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2xz21HvLs8
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: BoilerDown on February 05, 2023, 11:57:00 AM
Just watched this:
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 12:06:31 PM
I think the only argument (maybe I'm wrong) is from you downplaying the POTENTIAL threat of these balloons. Of THIS balloon
Show me the link where I said it was impossible for it to be a weapons platform. I'll wait.
I just said that to me, it seems like the lowest probable case. Not all potentials have equal probability. It has a potential to have been filled with rabid flying squirls they intended to be released. Probably not the most likely scenario. I'm sure somewhere on the intardnet there is someone claiming that. Maybe Q has the evidence. There are an infinite number of possibilities, most not worth considering seriously. Even if someone on the internet said so.
I already stated that IMHO, a surveillance balloon is the most probable case. Just seems weird to me.
I already said I don't consider it an invalid act to have shot it down. I do have doubts to if it was the most prudent action. But it is the POTUS' call.
Sorry if I don't have the exact opinion you want me to. You'll get over it.
I'll change my position as evidence changes. What do you do?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Gman on February 05, 2023, 12:17:30 PM
When someone resorts to Ad hominen attacks, it's because they've lost.
I'd forgotten about this incident. Two RCAF Hornets mag dumped their M61 20mm rounds into a rogue balloon, and didn't bring it down.
About 25 years ago, a rogue weather balloon wouldn't come down after over 1,000 rounds were fired at it.
The balloon entered Icelandic air space and drifted north towards Norway.
Balloons, like the suspected Chinese "spy balloon" over the US, don't always pop or explode when shot.
Almost 25 years ago, a large runaway weather balloon proved to be quite challenge a for a pair of fighter jets trying to shoot it down, staying in the air even after more than 1,000 rounds were fired at it.
The research balloon was measuring ozone levels above Canada, the Associated Press reported at the time. It went rogue in August 1998, passing across Canada, over the Atlantic Ocean, and through British airspace before entering Iceland's airspace and then drifting northward.
Two Royal Canadian Air Force CF-18 fighter aircraft spotted the balloon over Newfoundland and fired more than 1,000 rounds at it. The AP reported that the jets, Canadian variants of the American F/A-18 Hornet, hit the balloon, but rather than popping or exploding and crashing to the earth, it slowly began leaking helium. The big balloon was still in the air.
A Canadian military spokesperson, a lieutenant named Steve Wills, told BBC that it was difficult to target the balloon, even though it was about the size of a 25-story building, and that the failure to take it out wasn't embarrassing.
"With something like this, which is stationary in the air when the CF-18s are flying very, very fast, it is difficult to shoot it," Wills said.
The CF-18s were reportedly equipped with air-to-air missiles, but Canadian Major Roland Lavoie told AP the pilots refrained from using them.
"Citizens would not have appreciated having a missile blowing over their heads,″ he said. "Also, it might be overkill spending a couple of hundred thousand dollars on a missile to shoot down a balloon that's drifting away."
The balloon, BBC reported, also survived encounters with British and American aircraft.
According to BBC reports from the time of the incident, the 300-ft helium balloon prompted air traffic controllers to divert and delay transatlantic flights. If deflated, the balloon would cover an area of about five football fields, The Irish Times reported.
The US currently has a Chinese balloon, which Pentagon officials say is an intelligence-gathering spy balloon but China argues is a research asset, in its airspace, and there have been questions about shooting it down.
Brigadier Gen. Pat Ryder, the Pentagon press secretary, said Thursday that the balloon is operating at a higher altitude than commercial air traffic and "does not present a military or physical threat to people on the ground." Nonetheless, the US scrambled F-22 Raptors and other aircraft in response.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 12:33:32 PM
It also provided information that I didn't know (1:43). That this was the (4th?) balloon incursion.
3 under the previous admin.
So one of my views was that maybe we should have tracked and monitored the object and not shot it down unless it became an obvious threat and then warn China not to let that "accident" happen again. THEN if they did it again shoot it down.
But if the was the 4th event (3 under the previous admin) then maybe they had already given those warnings privately. In THAT case, yeah, light it up. By the 4th event we have shown more than enough restraint.
So there is a lot about this situation that we are still getting facts on. Why the previous admin let it happen 3 times, I'm not sure. But as I said, my position will change with the evidence.
[edit]
Sorry, this would be the 5th event then. So at first I was shocked, starting shooting at first sight seemed imprudent. Now it makes more sense.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: MiloMorai on February 05, 2023, 01:13:25 PM
The previous admin says it didn't happen under his admin. Oh well, aiding and abetting the enemy.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: MiloMorai on February 05, 2023, 01:22:23 PM
LOL Gman.
Afraid of exploding missiles but have 1000 20mm shell casing dropping out of the sky.
Why didn't the 18s slow down?
Did the balloon reverse direction to enter Icelandic airspace after being in British airspace?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 02:07:24 PM
pretty clever to shoot the balloon with a sidewinder without a warhead. Although people on the ground have said they heard a huge boom that made their houses shake.
Do the missiles create a sonic boom?
After hearing it was a sidewinder 9x, I looked it up. Very interesting missile. It's designed to be uses air to air, air to ground, and ground to air without any modifications. Also, I can lock on target several different ways, including visually from the pilot.
Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: Dadtallica on February 05, 2023, 02:20:38 PM
Maybe the plane had to go supersonic to get to 58K.
Side note. It takes a Lancaster III 432 days to get to 58,000 ft. True story.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 02:35:27 PM
I don't know what your issue is. Seems like you're just trying to downplay any possibility that it's any kind of threat. That's pretty ignorant.
I was wondering in all your internet googling, have you figured why the previous admin felt it was safe to let them penetrate US airspace 3 times before without shooting them down?
Just watched a interview with little Marco and best I could determine is he felt the states they flew over before were just "some southern states" so I guess those Americans don't need to be protected from cyber drones and rabid flying squirls and such. I mean with all the "potential" risks, why not shoot down the first one, in the previous admin?
He seemed to get kinda nervous at that point. I expected him to grab for his water bottle and start guzzling. ;)
In fairness, when the previous guy was warning us about the dangers of "GINA" I thought he was talking about GG. ;)
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 03:08:16 PM
I was wondering in all your internet googling, have you figured why the previous admin felt it was safe to let them penetrate US airspace 3 times before without shooting them down?
Just watched a interview with little Marco and best I could determine is he felt the states they flew over before were just "some southern states" so I guess those Americans don't need to be protected from cyber drones and rabid flying squirls and such. I mean with all the "potential" risks, why not shoot down the first one, in the previous admin?
In fairness, when the previous guy was warning us about the dangers of "GINA" I thought he was talking about GG. ;)
I was not aware. Doesn't change my opinion that we should never allow any foreign aircraft to violate our airpace.
But I have no details of the previous instances. Can you fill me in on the details? When was Trump notified and where did the balloons travel?
As I said in a previous post _ usually these things are not brought directly to the President's attention. This current balloon was viewed as a threat important enough to notify the President. I'm not sure what the differences are in the situations. Maybe you have more details.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 03:19:02 PM
I think the only argument (maybe I'm wrong) is from you downplaying the POTENTIAL threat of these balloons. Of THIS balloon
There is a reason why the balloon was tracked by NORAD and determined (after seeing how it maneuvered and it's target areas) that they needed to notify the President. Things like this do not normally go right to the president. And how many times have you ever heard of us shooting down a surveillance balloon?
what we do know is that it was considered enough of a threat to be shot down and recovered. Biden wanted to shoot it down over Montana.
You seem to be waiting for it to be discovered that it had some kind of weapon on board before you'll even conceded that these balloons should be considered a threat.
Just the potential of what could be on board - now or in the future, is enough.
My guess is that we are not just going to allow balloons to float across the United States without doing something about it.
Like I said here. There must be a reason why they notified the President directly on this occasion.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 03:21:56 PM
You're the Google Girl, GG. Go do your thing. I'm sure the usual suspects are denying everything. ;) We certainly need to investigate the previous incidents thoroughly. Who knew what and when. And if not, how to we make sure future admins aren't so sloppily run when it comes to national security. Maybe another Special Council.
So I'll give them the first one. You don't want to go whacko and start shooting when there is no apparent immediate threat at first sight. You would want to watch carefully and be prepared to act. You then warn them privately that the next "accident" will get shot down. That would seem prudent.
Second one after a warning? Light it up.
Third? WTF? Air balloon super weapons dropping flying monkeys and killer androids to kill us in our sleep...with a SWORD! Don't these people read the internet??? Maybe you should consider a job in the intel field. Does the CIA know about your Googling skills?
Fourth? Maybe it was nappy time. ;)
Fifth? OK. I get it. Makes more sense.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 03:34:28 PM
I did try to google the previous instances and I can't find any specific details. You're the one who brough it up, so I figured you had some knowledge that led you to believe that the events were similar in nature.
Doesn't change my opinion one bit. We should not be allowing any foreign aircraft to fly through our airspace without authorization.
To me this is not a political or party issue. I don't even know why it matters. Biden did the right thing. NORAD was tracking it and saw that it needed to be brought directly to the President's attention.
I know nothing o the other situations.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 03:40:06 PM
I figured you had some knowledge that led you to believe that the events were similar in nature.
By similar, do you mean Chinese balloons floating in US airspace?
If it turns out it did happen 3 times in the last admin, would you call that a dereliction of duty?
We might have to wait for the Special Councils report to get all the facts.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 03:43:59 PM
By similar I mean did they notify the President in light of the threat? Were the balloons deliberately loitering in US airspace? Same kind of balloons that can maneuver?
Where did they fly over and for how long? Who was aware and who was notified?
Because to be similar, something has to be similar, right?
I literally no nothing of the details. Do you?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 03:48:00 PM
Is there some portion of the US you are ok with killer drone balloons flying over? And some period of time you are OK with?
I'm thinking Louisiana. Yeah, I'm definitely OK with that. Maybe Arkansas.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 04:19:44 PM
Dude, you're swinging at the fences. I'm not arguing about anything. I don't understand your point. I've said at least three times now that I don't think we should allow balloons or anything else to deliberately violate our airspace.
I've also never said that I think everything needs to be shot down. I even said that about this balloon.
I'd imagine that our airspace is somehow tested and violated dozens of times per year. Just guessing.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: RUSH1 on February 05, 2023, 04:31:41 PM
Dude, you're swinging at the fences. I'm not arguing about anything. I don't understand your point. I've said at least three times now that I don't think we should allow balloons or anything else to deliberately violate our airspace.
I've also never said that I think everything needs to be shot down. I even said that about this balloon.
I'd imagine that our airspace is somehow tested and violated dozens of times per year. Just guessing.
He's on drugs. Gotta be. Wasn't he also the one going on and on about shrooms in another thread before it got locked?
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 04:34:12 PM
Dude, you're swinging at the fences. I'm not arguing about anything. I don't understand your point.
Well Dude, or whatever, I'm trying to get a clear yes or no answer out of you.
If it turns out these balloons had penetrated US airspace 3 times in the last admin without being shot down, would you consider that a dereliction of duty?
Or are some penetrations ok? Never mind, forget I asked that last one.
[edit] It looks like it may have happened under the last admin but they failed to detect it at the time. Seriously? I guess incompetence is better than dereliction.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 04:57:24 PM
How would I know if it's a dereliction of duty? I don't know what the official policy is, or if we even have one. I don't know who reported the balloons before or who knew about them., I don't know how far the incidents went up the chain of command so how am I supposed to even remotely know if there was a dereliction of duty.
Go pick a fight with someone else. I've already told you what I think.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2023, 05:01:00 PM
Go pick a fight with someone else. I've already told you what I think.
Which is exactly my response when you were busting my blz for not taking your flying killer drone super weapon balloon theory as seriously as you wanted.
Title: Re: Spy ballons.
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 05:08:21 PM
Classified U.S. Report Highlights Foreign Power Aerial Spying With Advanced Tech Before a Chinese spy balloon was discovered in the United States, American officials said a rival power may have used advanced technology to surveil U.S. military sites.
WASHINGTON — The Chinese spy balloon that floated across the continental United States before it was shot down by the U.S. military generated deep concern on Capitol Hill in part because it came on the heels of a classified report that outlined incidents of American adversaries potentially using advanced aerial technology to spy on the country.
The classified report to Congress last month discussed at least two incidents of a rival power conducting aerial surveillance with what appeared to be unknown cutting-edge technology, according to U.S. officials. While the report did not attribute the incidents to any country, two American officials familiar with the research said the surveillance probably was conducted by China.
The report on what the intelligence agencies call unidentified aerial phenomena focused on several incidents believed to be surveillance. Some of those incidents have involved balloons, while others have involved quadcopter drones.
So we were aware that some advanced surveillance had occured before.
remember the "swarms": of Drones on Colorado and Nebraska in 2019 and 2020? That was never explained.
I'm again thinking about drones as a very viable assets that could be brought in by balloons. Who knows?
more from the article...
Quote
The classified report mentioned Naval Air Station Fallon in Nevada and Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni in Japan as sites where foreign surveillance was believed to have occurred, but did not explicitly say China had been behind the actions, a U.S. official said.
Since 2021, the Pentagon has examined 366 incidents that were initially unexplained and said 163 were balloons. A handful of those incidents involved advanced surveillance balloons, according to a U.S. official, but none of them were conducting persistent reconnaissance of the U.S. military bases. (However, spy balloons that the U.S. government immediately identifies are not included in the unidentified aerial phenomenon tracking, according to two U.S. officials.)
Because spy balloons are relatively basic collection devices and other balloons have not lingered long over U.S. territory, they previously have not generated much concern with the Pentagon or intelligence agencies, according to two officials.
looks almost like they are talking about UFOs or something else very advanced.