Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Oldman731 on July 25, 2010, 09:43:22 AM
-
Strolling around to see what other people are doing, I stopped into the WWI arena last night. I believe there were four others in there at the time. What a pleasant experience! No ganging, a smaller amount of HOing, pleasant and respectful conversation, and a collection of very fun-to-fly aeroplanes whose wings always seem to be blotting out my view of the enemy aircraft. I enjoyed it very much, and recommend it to all.
- oldman
-
I love the WW1 arena.
Success in the MAs I think are due to the fact that there is an objective involved.
The simple hatred for bomb****s, toolshedders, NOE hordes, milkrunners are what keep the MAs alive and hopefully soon, some sort of objective is incorperated into the WW1 arenas to keep player's attention span focused in there a bit.
As it stands now, I frequent the WW1 arena. Although great fun, I do tend to get bored after a few sorties
-
The WW1 arenas are the most fun when there is around 8 to 10 players in there. Does not take a lot of players to make those arenas really fun to play in.
-
Always a fun arena. I tend to fly there only anymore when I do log in due to the fun fights and the lack of immature "fights" on channel. Wormzila, Ehre, Death, Billreed, Snefens and several others are great fun to fight and are great people in general. Always fun when we see one of the HTC crew come in for a sortie or two. :D
-
Yes, agreed with all. A fun place to visit.
-
WWI is fun, good clean fights!
-
Does not take a lot of players to make those arenas really fun to play in.
(looks at Skuzzy with arched eyebrows)
That is true of any arena. It's the nature of the people that makes the difference.
- oldman
-
(looks at Skuzzy with arched eyebrows)
- oldman
Put the botox down and back away slowly. :devil
-
I have a couple WW1 terrains in-progress to help either breathe a lil' life into the arena and/or give the regulars some new scenery. The last TE update contained some new WW1 stuff not yet seen in-game that I'm planning to use.
-
I love the WW1 arena.
Success in the MAs I think are due to the fact that there is an objective involved.
The simple hatred for bomb****s, toolshedders, NOE hordes, milkrunners are what keep the MAs alive and hopefully soon, some sort of objective is incorperated into the WW1 arenas to keep player's attention span focused in there a bit.
As it stands now, I frequent the WW1 arena. Although great fun, I do tend to get bored after a few sorties
Forgive me if I find it humorous that you say the thing you hate the most in the MA are what makes it successful and you wish for them in the WW1 arena. And you don't really believe that the "hatred" is the reason the MA's are successfully do you? Bottom line is you are correct in your second part of the sentence, objectives are what makes the MA's successful if this wasn't true the DA would be packed. Incorporate objectives into WW1 and you would have a winner. :aok
:salute
-
I really enjoyed popping your melon oldman.... please come back soon! :angel:
-
Wormzila, Ehre, Death, Billreed, Snefens and several others are great fun to fight and are great people in general.
Meh, they are easy kills :neener:
:bolt:
-
Forgive me if I find it humorous that you say the thing you hate the most in the MA are what makes it successful and you wish for them in the WW1 arena. And you don't really believe that the "hatred" is the reason the MA's are successfully do you? Bottom line is you are correct in your second part of the sentence, objectives are what makes the MA's successful if this wasn't true the DA would be packed. Incorporate objectives into WW1 and you would have a winner. :aok
:salute
If you find that humorous, then I did my job. Its a game with so many dynamics that keep me and a bunch of others addicted. I was joking redwing :x :salute
-
Here's hoping that the next update will include some WWI love in it :devil SE5a, DVa would nice wink wink nudge nudge :D
-
haven't been there in a while.
may try it again from time to time.
feel like i am missing something.
froger
-
If you find that humorous, then I did my job. Its a game with so many dynamics that keep me and a bunch of others addicted. I was joking redwing :x :salute
lol, you and me are both addicts. :salute
-
No descent British planes to fly in WW1 and that is why i stopped going there.
Shame really as the HTC chaps have done such a good job :salute
I find the Bulldog too much of a challenge particularly facing the ubiquitous DR1 :frown: Its wrse than flying the P40 in the ma as at least with the P40 you can use alt to even the odds. The Bulldog seems to do nothing well and has poor visibility and seems to be the wrst hadler and gun platform. I would try agaon if we had a decent allied fighter.
-
I was enjoying the AVA but it has thinned as of late.
-
The WW1 arenas are the most fun when there is around 8 to 10 players in there. Does not take a lot of players to make those arenas really fun to play in.
Yeh i love a little time in the WW1 arena its so pleasant and peaceful :)
-
No descent British planes to fly in WW1 and that is why i stopped going there.
The F1 is a great ride.
-
Dr1 rules the roost to a certain extent, and there is a major factor in it I don't understand. While clearly it *should* be the best turner of all the WWI planes we currently have, the fact that it is anvil-tough, both against speed and Gs and against bullets, stymies me. The Camel falls apart much more easily than the Dr1, to the point that a downward spiraling high G turn by the Fokker is dangerous to follow. From everything I have read, this is opposite how it really was, the Fokker being the one who suffered dangerous wing failures at speed. Also, the damn thing is just a bullet sponge. Correct these two odds factors, without changing any of the flight factors, would do alot to bring the Camel and any other planes that may be added later into contention with the Dr1.
No descent British planes to fly in WW1 and that is why i stopped going there.
Shame really as the HTC chaps have done such a good job :salute
I find the Bulldog too much of a challenge particularly facing the ubiquitous DR1 :frown: Its wrse than flying the P40 in the ma as at least with the P40 you can use alt to even the odds. The Bulldog seems to do nothing well and has poor visibility and seems to be the wrst hadler and gun platform. I would try agaon if we had a decent allied fighter.
-
I was enjoying the AVA but it has thinned as of late.
thats what happens when you "hot" sticks get in there and clean the place out night after night. The poor baby seals can only take so much clubbery!
:neener:
-
Actually the F1 is a good ride for some, Zmeg comes to mind he flies that thing to its' best, there indeed seems to be something wrong with DR1s' durability and speed but I am sure HTC checked it out so I accept it, the DVII was developed AFTER the DR1 and was by all historical accounts the best plane of the war, so potent that the allies ordered them all destroyed, in our game that honor would go to the DR1.
Our DVII is the early model I think with the smaller engine and NOT the one of renown.
What makes the game tuff for me is that some of you guys have such a good shooting eye it is almost like you have aimbot, while I am spraying lead all over the sky.
I have high hopes for WWI since we are starting to become like the MA with ack huggers, score mongers who will not fight each other and stay on the same side, etc etc etc all of which points to guys liking the arena :rock
-
thats what happens when you "hot" sticks get in there and clean the place out night after night. The poor baby seals can only take so much clubbery!
:neener:
:neener: Meeny.... I'm going to take my ball and go home.
:rofl
-
"I find the Bulldog too much of a challenge particularly facing the ubiquitous DR1"
Really? What Bulldog? The Bristol Aircraft Company Ltd didn't build their splendid single-seater of that name until the late 1920s. Methinks you mean Sopwith's best-known product, the Camel?
And what a laugh that the Fokker Tripehound's become ubiquitous in the AH WW1 arena; in the real world, it didn't last long at the front because it was too slow to catch a cold, let alone a SE5a or SPAD. Just shows the limitation of having only a Furballers' Fun Palace instead of providing a proper WW1 simulation.
:cool:
-
Like I say, I think if it was given its historical fragility instead of being the Jug of the WWI arena (dives and takes a punch), it would do alot to even things out.
"I find the Bulldog too much of a challenge particularly facing the ubiquitous DR1"
Really? What Bulldog? The Bristol Aircraft Company Ltd didn't build their splendid single-seater of that name until the late 1920s. Methinks you mean Sopwith's best-known product, the Camel?
And what a laugh that the Fokker Tripehound's become ubiquitous in the AH WW1 arena; in the real world, it didn't last long at the front because it was too slow to catch a cold, let alone a SE5a or SPAD. Just shows the limitation of having only a Furballers' Fun Palace instead of providing a proper WW1 simulation.
:cool:
-
Always a fun arena. I tend to fly there only anymore when I do log in due to the fun fights and the lack of immature "fights" on channel. Wormzila, Ehre, Death, Billreed, Snefens and several others are great fun to fight and are great people in general. Always fun when we see one of the HTC crew come in for a sortie or two. :D
Xcelsior....my feelings are hurt. As many times as I had to face your F2B....lol
I agree that the DR1 is the top dog of crates...although has anyone seen the AK (Arabian Knights) handle a D7? They can give a DR1 fits in there. I also fly the F1 and D7. Really hate the view of the camel so I rarely fly it any more. However if there is not a serious fight going on I will fly the D7 to increase my skills in it. Ehre and Worm are also great stiks in the D7 as well.
I have been flying online sims for many years and the greatest goal i have is to kill..kill..kill. Must be why I like the WWI arena so much. Really miss the days when there where 10 vs 10 in there. That is more intense than any fight in the MA. The planes might be slower but the action is alot faster. There is no B&Z then extend and come back for another. When you get in one of these fights you have got to claw your way back out of it or die.
Just my input of the arena. Would like to see more planes but would like to see more pilots first. The better stiks usually try to help and give tips to the noobs that come in there. It's a very freindly arena. No one has a certain color they fly for...they just want to fly and kill.
-
I have a couple WW1 terrains in-progress to help either breathe a lil' life into the arena and/or give the regulars some new scenery. The last TE update contained some new WW1 stuff not yet seen in-game that I'm planning to use.
For me, what would breath life into the WW1 MA is a larger selection of planes....
-
all historical accounts the best plane of the war, so potent that the allies ordered them all destroyed,...
Not true....The Allies specifically wants D7`s intact because they were considered the best fighter plane of the war...They wanted to copy the design....
-
Not true....The Allies specifically wants D7`s intact because they were considered the best fighter plane of the war...They wanted to copy the design....
Yep, so much so that it was included in the armistice and the only plane to be specifically named in the armistice.
ack-ack
-
I have not been flying as much as I used to.......busy in the summer....
..but when I do, I usually fly the camel.
It is a challenge. I spin it in often....arghhhhh.....but there is some point in
time when you get the feel of th plane and take
it to the limit without the Crash and Burn. I hope I make it there sooner than later.
:rofl :O :rofl
-
It's encouraging to see quite a few good sticks supporting some sort of redress between the Camel and Dr1. You could debate endlessly around the way that might happen, but the fact is that the Dr1 is a good ride for the novice. The learning curve is steep in there (as I'm sure even veteran WW2 arena players would agree) so if the Dr1 was handicapped new players would likewise be further handicapped, and we don't have the numbers in there to introduce more reasons to leave.
We covered the issue re gyro effects already, there's been no action there (or anywhere else in the WW1 arena) but I'm hoping this is just a matter of time. Maybe one day soon the Camel FM will get a little tweak to allow its' famous gyroscopic turn (for which it was specifically designed, yet which only the Dr1 currently enjoys) but if not I'll gladly give up my ride in the old girl for a brand new SE5a (preferably one with a working Foster mounting on the Lewis gun).
Living upside-down here in Australia I don't often get to fly when the numbers are high, but I agree that the majority of players who frequent the WW1 arena are unsurpassed (in my experience) in their good humour, sense of fair play and general friendliness.
-
I fly the D7 99% of the time and I have a lot of success in it, as most of you know lol! When you're flying any plane you have to be very clean with your angles but when I'm in the D7 I really have to be in the zone in all aspects of the fight. Some planes like the DR1 and F1 are very forgiving, if you make a wrong move you can sort of rely on your turning ability a bit. With the D7 a few wrong moves and you're done. I've had many fights against DR1's and F1's where I could have ended the fight in 30 secs. but because of 1 slight angle error it takes a few mins to get a shot. A general rule in the D7 is if you're in a flat turn with any other plane for more than 1 circle or 2 you've already made a huge mistake. But that doesn't mean you can't turn against other planes, you just have to switch the angles up and pull a few tricks on them.
-
you just have to switch the angles up and pull a few tricks on them.
The best trick I've found for my D7, to ensure the guy on my six will overshoot, is to auger into a tree or building. :D
-
I fly the D7 99% of the time and I have a lot of success in it, as most of you know lol!
Ive watched you and there is something unique about the way you are able to make the D7 perform. What sort of stick set up are you using?
-
I'm using a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold joystick with no rudder petals.
-
You get that machine to respond so crisply. I can see the sharpness in the movements there and all I get is mush...delayed response on all my inputs.
I'm using the default stick scaling with a Saitek AV8R. Any recommendations there as far as stick scaling?
-
I have no clue how to set stick scaling and to be honest with you I don't even know what stick scaling is lol. But I do know that everything is very sensitive on my computer, one slight movement of the stick causes a large input. This makes it almost impossible for me to use the main gun in a tank though, I try to move the crosshairs an inch and they go all over the place lol.
-
yeager....without looking at them...mine is set starting at far left just before bottm and staggered upward to the far right which is maxed. Deadband is nearly all the way to bottm and dampening is just above the deadband. This is set the same for all 3 axis. I use a twisty stik so maybe this can be a start for your settings. Hope this helps.
Now for raven...where have you been. I believe I owe you for a few kills...lol
-
I have no clue how to set stick scaling and to be honest with you I don't even know what stick scaling is lol. But I do know that everything is very sensitive on my computer, one slight movement of the stick causes a large input. This makes it almost impossible for me to use the main gun in a tank though, I try to move the crosshairs an inch and they go all over the place lol.
Can I assume that F6FRaven = AKRaVeN? If that is not the case please disregard the following, with my apologies..... ok how did you manage to ace the gunnery aspect of the rankings (by a wide margin may I add) with an oversensitive stick and no clue as to what stick scaling is? Anyone else as gobsmacked as I am? My settings have been tweaked repeatedly specifically for the Camel, to that sweet spot where I can manoeuvre hard enough yet fluidly enough to maintain a decent gun platform. This setup is tailored to the Camel, if I fly anything else it's almost as bad as flying with the arrow keys. So I guess that at the moment, with the default scaling, you must feel that your controls are pretty ordinary.
I'm fairly sure when asked in the arena about your excellent shooting you mentioned practising offline before every online session. This doesn't tally with a failure to investigate and make use of the stick scaling system. I'm not trying to push any buttons here, just a little perplexed. If anything, I'm even more impressed by your gunnery. And I'm fairly certain that if you spend some time on the stick scaling your experience will improve significantly.... and the rest of us will suffer accordingly :joystick:
If you need any help with the scaling I'd be happy to explain the basics. Less than 5 minutes to understand it, but I guarantee you'll spend hours fiddling with it.
-
Hi guys ... just stopped to say hi and I couldn't look the other way when it comes to Camel and Dr1 ... I personally enjoy the German plane but hands down to all those very good sticks flying the Camel out there .. I think is getting to the point where the Camel fliers r getting more comfortable w the plane and started to shoot down the happy trigger Dr1's more and more .. ScTusk, Zmeg, Kuhnn are clear examples of a Camel well flown although there are also others that do wonders w that plane ... I must agree the Camel is not a plane for newcomers , takes time and practice to develop the "touch" for the plane, it is good for those willing to sacrifice time and practice in order to learn the ride and also rewarding because once you learn your favorite plane every kill becomes enjoyable and every death a challenge to do better next time.
The Dr1 on the other hand is a plane where the newbie can surely turn a lot and it is easier to learn the ABC but if you really want to master that triplane and face the experienced w the possibility of victory , it surely wont happen by turning left and right only . The Dr1 is a slow plane if u compare it with the others and horrible on the vertical with a nasty tendency to stall if you are not careful , it climbs nicely and unstopable on tight situations but again if u expand the fight and give yourself some room to maneuver it becomes a target like any other plane. I kindly remind the readers the Dr1 pilot goes there for one thing and one thing only .. to kill as fast as he can as many as he can , the sooner the better , but he can easily become a prey when facing a skilled pilot just because this one takes his time choosing not to fly under the Dr1 conditions. As they said it is not the plane who makes the pilot but the pilot makes the plane , whoever understand better the plane he is flying will become victorious unless the odds are staggering against him .
Personally I cant wait for more WWI planes to be introduced so we have other choices but as it stands now I think it is fair play for everyone .
Ehre
-
The Dr1 is a slow plane if u compare it with the others and horrible on the vertical with a nasty tendency to stall if you are not careful
And the Camel isn't?
it climbs nicely and unstopable on tight situations
... and the Camel doesn't and isn't. If the Camel was the equal of the Dr1 there'd be more people flying it.
the Dr1 pilot goes there for one thing and one thing only .. to kill as fast as he can as many as he can , the sooner the better
.... and that is their prerogative. Some however play for the pure enjoyment of a good fight, regardless of victory. Everyone pays the same fee, so no foul there. It just gets a bit old going up against the Dr1's flown by such experienced fliers as yourself, knowing that the fight will quickly deteriorate into a flat right hand turnfight on the deck, with the inevitable outcome. There is one plus, the challenge of coming up with a counter move. But I'm yet to find it. Starting the fight up high evens the odds a little, but not much due to the Dr1 being better in the vertical. The Camel does have some similarity to the Dr1 in that once engaged you are pretty much unable to extract, as there just isn't enough speed available. So if the Camel pilot wants a good fight, he has to avoid any Dr1 flown with confidence.
If you ever get sick of amassing large numbers of kills quickly, try a different a/c. You might enjoy the challenge :)
-
Hey Tusk, don't worry you haven't ruffled my feathers yet : ) I've been flying in AH offline since about 1998 or 99 I think (or around that time) and I flew in Flying Circus with my dad before that when I was only a few years old. My dad AKOwl set me up with AH at that time and since I'm a pretty young person I've never really messed with any of the settings except the sound settings, so I honestly have no clue as to what stick scaling is but I assume it has to do with sensitivity? But to be honest with you, after flying with the same settings for all these years I bet even a slight change would have huge negative effects.
As far as my shooting goes, I'll give you the whole lecture again hehe. And btw, this is all my opinion. Most people join AH and go directly into the main arenas. This has its advantages and disadvantages. Like this they are able to get in the action quickly and learn the ropes of AH at a fast pace. Unfortunately though, going directly online in my opinion doesn't give them enough time to really learn how to fly an airplane to its limits, and some people may never learn how to. However, if you take some time to practice offline first you're able to learn each plane at your own pace and really get a great feel for how each plane flies, what it can and can't do and also how to shoot. From around 1998 to 2006 I had a lot of time to get to know how to control a plane. I remember spending hours just turning planes in as tight of a turn as I can going around and around, doing loops and other maneuvers and flying through hangars in different ways until I either crashed or ran out of fuel, and I still do this. I also remember shooting at offline drones going around in circles seeing how accurate I could get, how many planes I could shoot down on one ammo loadout and seeing how far I could shoot. I treat Aces High like a sport, if you want to be good at it you better do a lot of practicing first before you get into the game. Would you play in a basketball game before shooting a few hundred shots first at your own house in order to get use to it? I would hope not lol!
-
Thanks Raven, I always had a lot of respect for your dad, I remember we had some laughs and some good fights both with and against in those days; say hello from - ahhh - he'd remember me as SC-1Shot :)
As for practising offline you're 'preaching to the converted'. Although I find after many hundreds (thousands?) of hours in dozens of sims, with the Microsoft series as the 'home' sim, you tend to get up to speed fast enough to enjoy risking a few early 'deaths' in the arena due to lack of time on type. As for stick setup, when you've been flying around with an old worn out stick, and become used to it, then for sure when you finally replace the stick you struggle for a while. But once familiar with it, I'm fairly certain you're usually better off. I think this is a similar thing.
For what it's worth, there's some pretty good info re stick setup in AHWikki, here's the link:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Set_Up_Controllers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Set_Up_Controllers)
If you decide to try it and get stuck, as I said before I'd be happy to help.
Salute :salute
-
Just to throw a thought out there.....if you get in a dr1 and think all you got to do is get in a fight and start turning hard right circles to get the kill you will most likely die. There is alot more to the dr1 than that. Especially against a d7. If you do not learn how to fight vertical with a dr1 you are gonna die alot. The d7, although not as tight of a turner, is a very manuvarable plane. Try a barrel roll in a dr1 then try it in a d7. The dr1 is just as hard to master as the d7. The camel on other hand just simply is to weak. Wings rip way to easy and the views are horrible. If I can't keep an eye on the con throughout the fight that is not the plane of choice for me. Actually...I would have to say that the views are my biggest complaint of the camel.
I enjoy flying the d7. Fun plane to be in and will face anyone with it. But if there is many cons I will have to get in my baby...the dr1. It's just easier to face 3+ cons due to its ability to duck and turn. And for all the new pilots remember....the ability to work your stik is not all....working speed is just as crucial and always know what and who is around you at all times in a fight.
Here's a ?....How many in WW1 works there elevator trim?
-
The Dr1 holds together when all other planes break apart. I have been in numerous fights with Dr1s in everything available (yes, including Dr1s) and the only plane that can follow the Dr1 through all its convoluted gyrations, without breaking apart at the seams, is another Dr1.
If Dr1s would simply fail structurally at a rate roughly comparable with the other three rides then some balance would be restored to the force. Both Brit planes break apart with relative ease, the D7 is harder to break but does so on occasion. I cannot recall an instance where I have broken a Dr1 structurally. I have ruined plenty of engines in the Dr1, perhaps more so than the others, but the reason for this I figure is the other planes are breaking apart before the engine can fail.
-
Sometime over the last day or two (chronologically challenged due to old age) another Camel jock fired a tongue in cheek text to the Dr1 pilot who'd just shot him down, along the lines of 'why do you always fly that noob plane?' This sort of thing occassionally ruffles a few feathers but I'm pretty sure it's all in good fun, maybe with a slight sting in the tail brought about by frustration. Unless you can bring something else into the fight, a turnfight with a well handled a/c which can out-turn you will usually only end one way. But I presume we'd all agree that since the nature of the game is to seize an advantage and capitalize on it, there can be no valid complaint. So all the leg pulling is either in good fun, or just sour grapes.
With all this in mind, from now on when I come across an experienced Dr1 driver I'll presume that complaints about HO's, gang-banging and alt monkeys are also leg pulls and continue to press home any advantage with gusto :D If you'd prefer to return to 'gentlemens rules' grab another ride and leave the freaky little tripe to the newcomers.
And yes, if I'm involved in any HO's, gang-bangs or alt monkeying on your DR1 you can take it as a compliment :salute
(A call goes out to Camel drivers everywhere - the gloves are off chaps. Eliminate the Dr1's at any cost; let us be rid of this scourge! Terminate with prejudice muhaha)
-
Hiya Tusk , ty for answering my post ... humm my experience with the camel comes from the ppl I have been fighting and not cause I fly the plane. I think the camel is more of an energy fighter vs the Dr1 , what I see from my cockpit if I'm fighting one is that turns on a dime at high speed and can reverse the fight terms in a heart beat if someone skilled and experienced is flying it . The weak points I find is being outturn at lower speeds and poor diving performance w wings breaking , low on the deck and slow is really flying under the Dr1 terms , hard to outmaneuver the German triplane under those conditions. As you said the longest the fight and the lowest it goes the more chances for the Dr1 to be victorious.
I do agree with Raven post, you have to practice and learn what u r flying before you go there , he simply nailed the whole topic right in the head.Honestly when I learn you guys been playing AH since the 90's I can only bow in respect.I didn't know it was that long !! I joined AH when WW1 arenas came up by pure coincidence and since then I ve spent 99% of my time flying there and one plane only although sometimes I jump in another plane. I have try to learn by watching how you guys fly , MeanDog , Raven , Tusk , Snefens , Wormzila , Death , Mano, Kuhn , Billreed , Viper , Pipaluce, Iwlf , Skullace or anyone going there with something good to show , from every fight always learnt something and yes I memorized the "Dicta Boelcke" and read WW1 testimonials , novels and all that .. The whole purpose of a fight no matter which one and no matter what conditions is to win. I enjoy the game winning or losing but everytime I take off the ideal set in my mind is to go there and land as many kills as I can , sometimes it can be done and sometimes cannot but that's another thing. Losing is not an option but if it does happen I salute my opponent , I congratulate him for his victory and take off again thinking how I'm going to achieve success this time. That's the beauty of the game .. unless real life .. there is always a next time.
:airplane:
Ehre
-
Great post Ehre...which is one my favorite nemesis along with Worm and Happy....
All of these negative post about the camel is getting old. For the next 2 weeks I will fly only the F1 camel. I am sure I will die alot during the learning curve but that's part of learning.
Maybe we could get all the experienced dr1 stiks to go to camels for awhile just to give the arena a chance. Just a thought...but I will be in one myself.
-
Had my first night with the camel. Took several sorties to get the feel of the bird. Died several times but got a few kills also. I am still disgusted with the views in it but only ripped wings once. The last fight was with a dr1 pilot that is in the top 3 in there. Had him bleeding oil and was a long intense fight. The 2nd dr1 came in right at the end of the fight. But naturally I did not win. I made a mistake and the result was me ramming him. But it was my fault not the planes fault.
By the end of 2 weeks I might even take on raven,ehre,worm,xcelsier and the rest of the pros without fear.
-
Sorry Meandog but even after 200 weeks you'll still be fearing me in a D7 hehe
-
The whole purpose of a fight no matter which one and no matter what conditions is to win.
If this really was WW1 I would agree, but a game (particularly a game struggling for numbers) has different priorities. I believe we need to take player satisfaction into account. If I come across a lone opponent in the evening here in Australia (my usual time to play but USA asleep so very few on) it's quite likely he's new to the arena, and possibly even to air combat sims in general. Should I gun him down until he leaves in frustration? I don't think so. Even if only 1 in twenty of the guys I treat with kid gloves returns, it's a step in the right direction. So I try to get them to open up... sometimes no response (can they even figure out the radio?) sometimes a good chat; often I'll drop below them and throw a few evasives for awhile as they slowly get the hang of it. I know that Zmeg does this also, maybe a few others.
So in that instance at least, the win is secondary. The next situation depends more on the general mood in the arena at the time, and respect for the opponent. But quite often after damaging his wing or similar, it's a feelgood moment for everyone if you simply pull off and allow your adversary the opportunity to attempt an rtb. I guess it's all very 'early war' this stuff, before everyone realised (in the real war) that with so much death and horrible injury around they just couldn't afford to fight a 'gentlemans' war'. We don't have to worry about death or fearful wounds though, not unless you pull an all nighter with a weak ticker or the suction cups fail on your stick just as RaVeN drops on your six. So I figure in general we can afford to carry on with the early war sentiment, the 'boys own' version of WW1. And bravo say I, more fun all round.
The Dr1 matched with a capable and experienced pilot is (as the game stands now) the ultimate weapon; the longbow, the gatling gun, the Fokker Eindecker. It's full of helium and has twice the ammo as the Camel; it's built like a shipping crate and turns fast, initial and sustained. It has good visibility, and for some strange reason it knows the extreme limit of where your guns will bear, and can fly just outside it in the most annoying way while the pilot graphic turns leering and gives you the finger - I swear I've seen it many times over.
Just as the Fokker Scourge swept away any remaining traces of the 'gentlemans' war' so we have our own Fokker (Dr1) Scourge. The future of the arena hangs in the balance.... will history repeat itself?
Maybe we'll get the SE5a's or Spad's lol
btw wtg Meandog and good luck in the Camel :salute
-
I just had a fight with my good friend flying the camel properly .. he got my Dr1 full of holes and no I couldn't outturn him cause he timed his maneuvers correctly .. I got myself into a Camel and got two kills my first time in that plane , and I mean fighting 2 vs 1 at same time and yes one of them was a Dr1 the other a D7.. sure it took me 5-6 minutes but still .. Meandog also experimenting with the camel got 4 kills in one sortie fighting outnumbered , wormzila already an experten w the green plane throws himself in the middle of the furball with confidence .. Why most ppl choose a Dr1 coming to the arena ? Maybe cause it is got three wings , maybe cause is short and fat , I have no clue ... :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
Maybe they can give the Dr1 a little bit more of roll rate to make it even w the D7 !! hahahaah (just kidding)
Tusk you are pointing at one specific situation (newbies coming to the arena trying to get the "feeling" of an air combat sim ) ..I thought we were talking about the regulars . You are very passionate defending your points of view and that's fair. We should all do the same :D :D :D Peace
I stick to my opinion ..I think it is fair play for everybody as it stands now .
Ehre
-
Wtg guys, sounds like you're already having some success in the F1 :salute Good on you also for giving it a go.
Just to be clear, this isn't a respect issue; everyone has that (from me at least, tentatively) by default even if I don't know them, then eventually by confirmation through observation (unless they turn out to be one of those thankfully rare types who sadly doesn't play well with others). As for game skill, I suppose the acknowledgement of that is a form of respect but let's just call it appreciation. So where I'm coming from here is that I already appreciate the skill of many Dr1 drivers; and most of them also have my respect (and I would like to think are or are becoming good online friends). Which should clear up any doubts about this issue being personal or casting aspersions in any way.
Neither am I completely suprised that 'ace' Dr1 drivers can jump into the Camel and achieve great results. But I do honestly believe that if you could somehow fly against yourself in both a/c then the Dr1 'you' would win most of the time. In this type of combat even a 5% advantage is going to result in victory 95% of the time. I think the advantage which the Dr1 holds over the Camel is probably worth at least 5%. If you have some clever tactic that could reverse this situation I would be very happy to hear it lol.
-
I have had some great fights recently F1 vs Dr1 that simply end with my F1 breaking apart.
-
I have been flying the camel now for few hours and I can feel the pain you are mentioning ... however I have been able not to let the Dr1 take me down to the deck where he is stronger by fighting energy an making sure I always hold a little advantage over him in case something goes wrong .. very difficult to do. As a result I can leave the fight if I want but of course I cannot kill the guy .. the problem is when the bloody swarm of Dr1's come to the deck looking for the next possible victim (me in the F1) ... then I come back to base and land .. of course 20 minutes flying and .. you guessed , zero kills . It seems like the F1 with those big wings attracts the Dr1 cause they are a big target to shoot at so at any given point if 3 Dr1 are fighting X number of enemies and you show up in the F1 , they will leave whatever they are doing and try to jump on you ... bloody hell , I ve experienced this in my own skin , was fighting a Dr1 and suddenly 2 more show up out of nowhere leaving their fights and coming for me.
My biggest fear like Yeager pointed , I' m afraid to break my wings on the dive . I have never been afraid to break my wings flying the Dr1 under high stress situations and although I have break them eventually .. they can hold together longer than the F1. It is a fact .. when diving you must keep your eyes on the speed or else you ll find yourself wingless. My other problem is visibility, dam is difficult when u r used to the open view of the Dr1. One thing I notice , if you want to look your enemy when you bank , u must do so through that semicircle hole on the top wings ( unless u ve trackIR , not present here ) , that automatically makes you to bank left or right sharper than intended , otherwise u cannot see the enemy , very difficult to keep the enemy at bay when u have no idea what he is doing. I think it is essential to watch enemy maneuvers at all times during the fight , this is difficult to do in the Camel , by contrast extremely easy on the Dr1 ... also bleeding speed on these sharp turns is something the camel pilot cannot allow himself to lose , it performs excellent at high speeds but not so good less than 80 mph unless of course some serious expert camel flier is on the controls, certainly not me .
I will keep flying the F1 and will post more , so far I think your post are very accurate and the plane is not intended for newbie hands. I would love to hear from Wormzilla , he has been flying the F1 for some time now .. I know he was unsuccessful vs Iwlf and I counted 2 kills for worm (F1) and 4 for iwlf (Dr1) when they clashed 1 vs 1, couple of times worm ended like a matchstick with his engine on fire. I can testify this cause I was in the cockpit with my good friend iwlf when this happened.
Ehre
-
There is no doubt that when a fellow fights as much to stay above you as he does to shoot you down, then you are fighting against someone who knows what he is doing. The best way I have found to kill a Dr1 is to stay on top. To pull him up to me and then as he stalls and falls away that is where I shoot him. Try to shoot the pilot. Its when I have the nose down straining to stay with the Dr1 as it gyrates out of his stall that I typically lose my wings.
-
The best way I have found to kill a Dr1 is to stay on top. To pull him up to me and then as he stalls and falls away that is where I shoot him.
Of course, the problem there is that the Dr1 is known (both historically and in-game) for its' ability to hang on its' prop and shoot accurately at a/c above; the more you look into it, the more you realise what an outstanding little beast it is. And that leads inevitably to a contradiction.... why did they only produce a few hundred of them? The obvious yet incorrect answer is structural failure. In the first place, losing a few pilots due to occassional over-eagerness wouldn't have been enough to abandon the entire type (the Camel for instance killed almost as many allied pilots as it did German airmen, yet over 5,000 were produced). Second, in light of its' other virtues they would have simply redoubled their efforts to correct the design.
Considering that at the time the skies over the Western Front were darkening with Sopwith Camels (also a turnfighter - designed specifically to capitalize on the gyroscopic effect of precession) the reason for abandoning the type becomes clear; the Camel was superior. Whether it was simply a better turnfighter, or had a more complex advantage (almost as good in the turns and significantly faster?) seems unclear, but the fact remains we have a situation in-game which does not reflect reality. Whenever this comes up there's a small storm of indignant outrage from the Dr1 drivers, but it's a fact none the less.... you just have to examine the evidence to realise that in reality the Camel was superior, and in-game the Dr1 has the edge.
-
From the mouth of a dr1 stick.... it's over modeled compared to the Camule. Or Camule is under modeled....The Dr1 turns left or right with ease...no effect from rotating mass of engine... Camule harder to turn left than tri plane. Seems like Dr1 should have that same effect. I think Dr1 had a little bit better turning radius than Camule, but it shouldn't over take it in one and a half turns...... Camule blows e way faster, but it may have in real life, so wont wine about that. In all i really love flying the Camule now. And the d7. I think the whole ww1 thang would be served a good turn if HT would nurf the Dr1 ...just a little :)
-
After 2 days of flying the camel I will admit that the DR1 is a superior crate to all others in the arena as far as fast handling and toughness. As some will call it the noob plane. So they call the Spitfire in the MA. BUT....now that I have flown it, it is starting to grow on me. It is a great crate for the noobs and pros. Believe that the biggest complaint was that they should but couldn't keep up or handle the DR1. I disagree with that strongly. Knowing the plane is the key. What ever you do, don't get it on the deck with it slow against a DR1. A certain death you will experience. Don't get trapped into the circle of death. The DR1 hates barrel rolls however the F1 is waiting for them. Loops are easier to handle. Listen to the plane...it will tell you when you pushing a little to hard. Made hard dives and pulled out of them with wings remaining in place. I use alot of engine control during a fight. If I get in a hard turn to get a bead on a con I will cut engine on and off. It will make the tight turn plus keep all wings. Yes I am using the governor as all else is that I know of.
I don't know about the history of any of these planes other than what has been stating on the BB. These planes might not be historically correct and am not doubting the words of those that have taken there time and studied them. I commend those like SCTUSK and others that has this knowledge to share with us. I would like to see HT get the planes as close to original specs that they can and add a few more if possible. I'm sure the WW1 arena is kept on the back burner but in front of them.
All in all...I have gotten to enjoy flying all the planes except the F2B yet. Hope more will come in and try any of them. If your new..come over buffer and say it. I grant ya that help is just a question away.
-
try the game with engine governor off. Makes for a more realistic experience.
-
I don't use no stinking governor!! :D I gotta get in there more often. Yall is having to much fun.
-
Hi Gents.. let me add my two cents to the debate .. good post this one !! At this point it is just out of curiosity and the desire to learn more about the topic and nothing else.
I went deeper and straight to the books trying to figure what aircraft was better in real life. Also couple of websites which I would gladly suggest if asked. This is what I found :
J.M. Bruce. in British Aeroplanes 1914-18 says ...'The Camel 'was an extreme dog-fighter that could out maneuver any contemporary airplane with the possible exception of the Fokker Dr.I Triplane."
Worldwar1(dot)com second paragraph reads.. The Camel would become the premier Allied fighter aircraft of the war. Its optimal fighting altitude was at about 12,000 ft. and its maneuverability made it competitive with the Fokker Dr.I.
E.F. Cheesman. Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 war says 'The Camel' could match his counterpart the Fokker Dr1 at altitudes of 10 000 feet or more.
Arch Whitehouse in his 1964 piece" Years of the Sky Kings" explains about the Camel .. With its center of gravity very far forward (the engine, fuel tank, guns, and pilot were all in the front third of the plane), the aircraft was tricky to fly, but very maneuverable for a skilled pilot. While 413 Camel pilots were shot down in combat, 385 were lost in non-combat related situations, many due to the Camel's difficult handling.
I understand few hours research doesnt give any definitive answer and of course other authors may contradict my findings but so far I tend to think the two planes were evenly matched with advantage to the camel at higher altitudes. The Dr1 holding his ground on maneuverability and handling . With the arena we have at this time rarely we see a fight over 4k alt, and there are no fights developing over 10k at all , at least I havent seen one , the Dr1 being more maneuverable on the deck at low speeds is accurate.
Ehre
-
Getting from 4000 down to 1000 feet alt is no small chore in WW1. It takes patience and time. Its like walking on egg shells in a Camel. I cant imagine getting up to 10-12k. Besides the amount of time it would take.... all I can imagine is people egressing from anyone they see having any sort alt advantage.
-
As I've said before...
Considering that Camel and Dr.I have wingloading very close to each other and looking at their airfoils, it really is no wonder that Dr.I can fly a horizontal 360 degree banked turn slower and therefore have a smaller turn radius than Camel.
Dr.I: 6.46lbs/sqft
Camel: 6.30lbs/sqft
A pic depicting the Göttingen 298 used in the Dr.I. Camel's airfoild is very close to the RAF 14:
(http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-468/p24.jpg)
The airfoil used in the Camel, third from the top:
(http://www.southsearepublic.org/files/afc/2/sopwith_airfoil.jpg)
-
"the aircraft was tricky to fly, but very maneuverable for a skilled pilot"
I've heard that somewhere before.
-
I really don't like the idea of stepping on toes with regards to this issue (as I apparently did some time ago) but in the interests of clarity I'll have a shot at some warm and fuzzy input :)
Wmaker is correct regarding the airfoil aspect of the comparison insofar as it applies to turning ability under normal flight conditions.
Ehre has dug up a reference to the Camels' optimum fighting altitude as 12,000 feet. Certainly it was known to be less than optimum above that altitude, and with the arrival of the SE5a the Camel was mainly relegated to low level work (ground attack etc) which seems to indicate that it didn't suffer much from flying in the dense air down low, a fact which Wmakers' airfoil info supports. I think we can safely presume that this was a design which performed best at speed and at lower altitudes.
Some time ago I had a very interesting discussion with HiTech regarding the famous 'gyroscopic effect' as it applied to the Camel. There was some difference of opinion as to what in the literature qualified as hard data or evidence, and what should be disregarded. There was also (initially) some confusion as to what benefit this effect might have on turn performance. Eventually we arrived at a consensus (as far as I understood it) and it seems appropriate that I offer an explanation of the effect here for those unfamiliar with it.
The correct name for the effect is 'gyroscopic precession' and it occurs when a spinning mass experiences a torque 'off axis', i.e. in any direction other than along or around the axis of rotation. It is not related to torque effects on the aircraft around the axis of rotation. In a rotary engine aircraft such as the Camel, the mass of the spinning engine (and prop) provides a powerful gyroscopic reaction to changes in pitch and yaw. The simple way to think about it is that pitch induces yaw, and vice versa. You can notice it on take off when the tail comes up, or when flying straight and level by pitching or yawing and watching for the effect. It is strictly directional, so that the rotary engines (always spinning clockwise when viewed from the cockpit) always yaw right on pitch up, left on pitch down; pitch up on yaw left, and pitch down on yaw right.
There is enough in the literature to suggest that Sopwith (following his experience with the Pup) deliberately designed the Camel to make full use of this effect. Most of the mass was concentrated in the first seven feet of the fuselage. The wings were well forward. In effect the centre of mass, centre of lift and centre of gyroscopic rotation were very close together. This allowed the aircraft to be turned gyroscopically (i.e. outside the flight envelope) in a right hand turn by simply banking right and pitching up. In fact the effect was so powerful that full opposite rudder was needed to prevent the aircraft entering a spin. Pilots reported a strong rush of air from the left side of the cockpit during the manoeuvre, and anecdotal evidence indicates that many high scoring Camel pilots believed the Camel was able to out turn any aircraft in a right hand turn.
It took us awhile to thrash all this out (it was initially difficult to sell a manoeuvre which takes place outside the flight envelope) but the breakthrough came when it was found the AH Dr1 can actually do the gyro turn. It's difficult to hold it for any length of time but it certainly can be performed. The AH Camel however merely drops the right wing.
Dr1 drivers seem to like the idea that the triplane should be able to do it, and are unmoved that the Camel can't. My take on it is that nowhere in the literature is the Dr1 mentioned in relation to the gyro turn. The literature is full of reference to the Camel having this ability. It was designed specifically around it. The Dr1 was not (smaller engine mass, less power, mass distribution less than optimal for the effect) and the German attempt at fielding a dominant turn fighter was over. They stopped manufacture after only a few hundred, presumably when they realised that the Camel was superior. No doubt that the Dr1 could turn a little gyroscopically, but here I suspect that the AH model is correct... a brief snatch to the right. Whereas the Camel should be capable of a tidy reversal, at the very least, and more probably a full turn or more before stalling (from cruising speed).
Say what.. ? Who's coming? Oh crap :bolt:
-
Amen!
Well said Tusk!
-
Nice Tusk....and all this time I thought you was making that word up (gyroscopic)...Very interesting facts you, Wmaker and Ehre have stated..Thanks
-
The Dr1 production ceased not because the germans realized the Camel was superior but because they had a superior model themselves and what have been called the best overall fighter of the Great War, the Albatross D.VII. I think it is fair to mention only around 320 Dr1's were produce and the German high comand didn't give them to all the units in the front but just a selected few. Problems with the upper wings due to control failures and not a structural design prevented the plane from reaching the front. Two renown pilots were killed heating the controversy and although they fixed the problem to certain extent the aircraft was doom because of the fast pace of technological advances in aircraft design and production. But how can we explain that a plane that was built in such few numbers reached the fame it possessed ? By the end of the war 2500 camels were in production lines and they had another 2500 in flying conditions while the germans simply didn't have the capability of such numbers. What was the cause of the flying circus ? Germany couldn't build the planes as the allies did .. simply they didn't have the numbers and they had to adapt accordingly.
It is very difficult in a game to make reality count ... I really hope HTC will give the camel all you guys suggest to make it historical accurate... next thing happening is suddenly everybody entering the arena will fly the camel. I would love to see that, but then the real life sharpness of the Dreidecker will be lost because in real life and so far all the literature I have read points at Dr1 being more maneuverable and being able to outturn the camel and this is not a pure fruit of my imagination but the real facts cited by the experts in the historical period... Also we need to understand than this is a game and a business for HTC .. Sad but true is the fact that ppl go to our ww1 arena and after flying for less than an hour give up. I have come to realize this arena is not for everybody because it takes time , practice and effort to reach a level to match the existing players. We might be flying as is at the moment for a long time simply because we do not have the numbers ww2 arenas have , unfortunately this is the truth.
Ehre
-
I hope HT does give the camel everything it needs...that way I can get back in the DR1 and start killing camels again...lol
-
I'm not so sure the camel needs performance upgrading (it very well may) but I do think the Dr1 is in need of some adjustment somewhere in the grand scheme of things. The lack of structural failure alone, especially when compared to the abundance of structural failures everywhere else, tends to make me think something is not as it should be. Considering it had a history of upper wing failure due to greater lift on top wing coupled with shoddy workmanship and unprotected exposure to the elements.
I'm just a casual gamer though, I don't know....I just play. Or not :bolt:
-
I really don't like the idea of stepping on toes with regards to this issue (as I apparently did some time ago) but in the interests of clarity I'll have a shot at some warm and fuzzy input :)
<sigh> ...and here we go again. It was already explained to you in that thread that you started why gyroscopic precession does nothing to make the aircraft turn better. It is physically impossible. If you think about the forces acting on an aircraft in a steady sustained horsontal banking turn, you should realize it yourself. No amount of anecdotes is going to change that. If you keep this in mind and read between the lines it's quite clear that the anecdotes talk about how the aircraft was easier to fly in one direction than the other in a turn. In general gyroscopic precession is a nessary evil, not any kind of advantage.
Ehre has dug up a reference to the Camels' optimum fighting altitude as 12,000 feet. Certainly it was known to be less than optimum above that altitude, and with the arrival of the SE5a the Camel was mainly relegated to low level work (ground attack etc) which seems to indicate that it didn't suffer much from flying in the dense air down low, a fact which Wmakers' airfoil info supports.
Actually the Göttingen airfoils were simply superior all the way compared to the thin airfoils that preceeded them, period. The thin airfoils were used due to a belief that thicker airfoils create excessive drag compared to the any increase in lift they may bring. Ludwig Prandtl from Göttigen University did work with the thin airfoils of the time and his research showed that thicker airfoils are the way to go. While that 298-foil is still far from the airfoils we see in GA aircraft of today, it was in many ways a real leap from the thin airfoils of the day simply because it could provide so much more lift per wing area with very very small drag penalty. Those later German airfoils were simply superior in all ways to any thin airfoils used at the time.
Some time ago I had a very interesting discussion with HiTech regarding the famous 'gyroscopic effect' as it applied to the Camel. There was some difference of opinion as to what in the literature qualified as hard data or evidence, and what should be disregarded. There was also (initially) some confusion as to what benefit this effect might have on turn performance. Eventually we arrived at a consensus (as far as I understood it) and it seems appropriate that I offer an explanation of the effect here for those unfamiliar with it.
Actually the matter is completely black and white. Either the gyroscopic presession helps the aircraft to turn better to one direction compared to the other or not. And no it doesn't. It is a clear fact. As I said it's simply physically impossible. And Hitech did a very good job explaining it to you. Drawing false conclusions from anecdotes isn't going to defy physics in any way.
Yes, there was a concensus what greates the effect and what it does. However it was clear from start to the end of that thread that the effect does nothing that makes an aircraft turn better.
Here's a link to the thread for everyone to read: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,288659.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,288659.0.html)
There is enough in the literature to suggest that Sopwith (following his experience with the Pup) deliberately designed the Camel to make full use of this effect.
Well certainly not designed to make use of the effect to make the Camel turn better because again it is physically impossible. Did they have to take it into consideration that they were going to install a rotary engine into the Camel? Of course. However the gyroscopic precession is more of a hinderance than a virtue...to any rotary engined aircraft, Fokker Dr.I and Camel included. And that is also clearly evident from Aces High's flightmodel. The engine was a product of its time. It was developed to get more HP per weight while still being able to keep the engined cooled compared to the earlier liquid cooled engines. The further the war progressed the more inferior those rotary engines got compared to the liquid cooled engines as more power was being extracted from them.
Most of the mass was concentrated in the first seven feet of the fuselage. The wings were well forward. In effect the centre of mass, centre of lift and centre of gyroscopic rotation were very close together. This allowed the aircraft to be turned gyroscopically (i.e. outside the flight envelope) in a right hand turn by simply banking right and pitching up. In fact the effect was so powerful that full opposite rudder was needed to prevent the aircraft entering a spin. Pilots reported a strong rush of air from the left side of the cockpit during the manoeuvre, and anecdotal evidence indicates that many high scoring Camel pilots believed the Camel was able to out turn any aircraft in a right hand turn.
It took us awhile to thrash all this out (it was initially difficult to sell a manoeuvre which takes place outside the flight envelope) but the breakthrough came when it was found the AH Dr1 can actually do the gyro turn. It's difficult to hold it for any length of time but it certainly can be performed. The AH Camel however merely drops the right wing.
Ehh...there's no such thing as "turning outside the flight envelope". I think you can say that if aircraft flies outside its flight envelope one of the following things happen, it departs from controlled flight due to a 0g stall, accelerated stall or experiences a sturctural failure due to excessive loading or flutter for example....or hits critical mach. Of course aircraft can depart from controlled flight due to various stability issues as well.
Hehe, I'm really curious to know what is this "gyro turn"? Please post a film of you performing it with the Dr.I in Aces High. :)
Dr1 drivers seem to like the idea that the triplane should be able to do it, and are unmoved that the Camel can't. My take on it is that nowhere in the literature is the Dr1 mentioned in relation to the gyro turn. The literature is full of reference to the Camel having this ability. It was designed specifically around it.
Please post a source which specifically discusses Camel's design process and states that it was designed to turn better using the gyroscopic presession. Saying so is complete nonsense. You can find tens of general quotes that refer to the Camel's ability to turn better to the right. I don't doubt it for a moment that it didn't have nicer handling chracteristics in a right turn. As I said before in the last thread about this. A small difference could be possible due to less control surface drag because you probably need less control input to fly it in a right turn as opposed to the left turn. But that's pretty much the only thing that can make a very very small difference.
The Dr1 was not (smaller engine mass, less power, mass distribution less than optimal for the effect) and the German attempt at fielding a dominant turn fighter was over. They stopped manufacture after only a few hundred, presumably when they realised that the Camel was superior. No doubt that the Dr1 could turn a little gyroscopically, but here I suspect that the AH model is correct... a brief snatch to the right. Whereas the Camel should be capable of a tidy reversal, at the very least, and more probably a full turn or more before stalling (from cruising speed).
"could turn a little gyroscopically"
Oh my....
So how is this little gyroscopical turn achieved compared to the better or faster gyroscopical turn? :D I truly am intrigued. :)
Here's a quote from Windsock datafile special of the Dr.I regarding the end of production of the Dr.I:
"The third and final, production triplane batch (Dr.I 400/599/17) raised the total ordered to 320. When compared to the much larger Albatros and Pfalz production figures, the number was relatively insignificant. It was triplanes' slow speed, a serious disadvantage for a combat airplane, which persuaded Idflieg to restrict production for modest levels."
As can be seen it had nothing to do with realizing specifically that Camel was superior or the weight distribution or anything like that. Both the Camel and Dr.I were very maneuverable but in the end that doesn't win squadron vs. squadron aerial engagements. Actually, Camel was probably one of the easier opponents for it compared to the powerhouses like the Spad XIII and SE5a. Both Camel and Dr.I were rather slow and had generally poor performance at higher altitudes compared to the later inline engined fighters. IMO both Camel and Dr.I have gotten a mythical reputation that neither of them deserve. It was Fokker D.VII, Spad XIII and SE5a that ruled the roost in the end of the war. The low power rotary engines alone made Camel and Dr.I inferior to those three fighters.
The setup of the WWI and the shooting distancies in Aces High on the other hand greatly favor the more maneuverable fighters. Comparing WWI arena and real life is not a good idea in general.
-
IMO both Camel and Dr.I have gotten a mythical reputation that neither of them deserve.
The setup of the WWI and the shooting distancies in Aces High on the other hand greatly favor the more maneuverable fighters. Comparing WWI arena and real life is not a good idea in general.
I couldn't agree more ... :rock :rock :rock
-
Hello again Wmaker, thought you'd be out there on my six somewhere :salute I'm well aware of your blind spot with this issue but I don't see how anyone could follow that earlier thread to the end and not arrive at the same conclusions.
Do you understand that the gyroscopic effect causes a yaw to the right when you pull the stick back, proportionate (in the Camel probably a high proportion) to the amount of induced pitch?
Have you looked at the size of the fin/rudder on the Camel? Is it any suprise that an additional force in the yaw axis increases the rate of turn? Have you watched the T&B ball as you turn right? Notice how you have to kick hard left rudder to keep it centred? So what do you think happens if you pull backstick even more, or relax your opposite rudder?
Modern aerobatic pilots use gyroscopic precession created just from their props to perform some amazing 'outside the flight envelope' reversals and tumbles; damn this is like trying to convince someone the earth is round....
-
Hello again Wmaker, thought you'd be out there on my six somewhere :salute
Tusk, I have absolutely nothing personal against you. None. But if you keep insisting that a moment that yaws the aircrafts nose downwards during a sustained turn somehow makes it turn better, I will keep correcting you so that others here wouldn't errorously start thinking that way aswell and think that herefore there's something with AH's Camel. I haven't even said that there couldn't be anything wrong with it. I merely said the gyroscopic precession isn't making it turn better or worse to any direction in a sustained turn.
I'm well aware of your blind spot with this issue but I don't see how anyone could follow that earlier thread to the end and not arrive at the same conclusions.
Heh. On the contrary. I don't see how you can arrive into any different conclusions than mine but I'm not gonna start debating with you about it since the discussion is already had. I just suggest that you and anyone else that has any doubts reads that thread again.
Do you understand that the gyroscopic effect causes a yaw to the right when you pull the stick back
On this part I agree. This is what the gyroscopic precession causes. And it does it in the game already. Again, how would such a moment that causes that motion make an aircraft turn with a tighter radius? The force is there yes, but it does nothing to turn the aircraft any tighter. Wings carry the aircraft through the turn. The slowest speed you can fly that turn at is determined with the lift of your aircraft at that condition/close to it. All these forces are changing as you are settiling into the turn and become constant as the constant turn radius/speed is achieved.
Is it any suprise that an additional force in the yaw axis increases the rate of turn?
Look above. Such a force can't cause the aircraft to turn any thighter. It can however cause it to depart directionally. When the speeds too low for the "lift" of the fuselage to resis the gyroscopic moment. This happens already in AH for example in top of a slow ellipse loop where the momentarily very small turn radius increases the gyroscopic moment while the aircraft is at very slow speed. Again those things it does.
Modern aerobatic pilots use gyroscopic precession created just from their props to perform some amazing 'outside the flight envelope' reversals and tumbles;
They certainly do and it is very intertaining to watch such performances. But there the departure has already occurred. The aircraft really dropping more than flying at that state. Yes, some form of control can be maintained but the aircraft in those situation isn't really flying until sufficient airspeed is reached again to do so. Has absolutely nothing to with a turning contest where two aircraft are turning at their sowest possible turn speed to get the radius of the turn as small as possible. That is a steady state where all the forces involved are in equilibrium.
-
Tusk,
Again, I want to see what you mean by this "gyroscopic turn". Please post .ahf file of it.
-
Thanks Wmaker, glad to see it's not personal (I was beginning to think it was lol) :)
This is a little like those alien abduction things you hear about; those that 'have been abducted' are rarely believed, and usually seen as delusional. But in a universe of infinite possibilities the man who says something is impossible will always have that nagging doubt.... whereas the man who has been probed walks away with a grim certainty (and a slightly odd gait). You say you want proof, well we already travelled a long way down that road but you are a hard man to convince. I think with UFO's the standard response to hard photographic evidence is 'lens flare' or 'hoax' or 'Hi Tech experimental aircraft' (lol I'm on fire).
When I discovered that the AH Dr1 could (partially) execute a gyro assisted turn, I posted that information. Someone said that the Dr1 drivers had known all along but were enjoying the show too much to say anything. Certainly nobody dismissed the information openly. I would therefore like to know what others think regarding this issue. What sort of times are people getting in the turns? Better still, since the Dr1 can't hold a sustained gyro turn, let's take a look at a simple reversal. How fast can you reverse 180 degrees, what speeds? Try it along an airfield perimeter hedge, co-ordinated turns and gyro turns. I'll chip in when I see some data.
..... and there are aliens, I tell you :old:
-
Get the fight at 6k and above....the Camule starts to gain the advantage over Dr1.Them fat wings really start working up there... Right Mr Ehre? ;) :salute :salute :banana
-
Crap...dun forgot what the devil this argument was even about now... :x All I know (at the risk of sounding full of myself) is I can give even the best DR1 pilots fits with a camel. Now if I ever get sucked to the deck it just makes it that much harder and the favor goes to the DR1 hands down. Not sayig the Dr1 will win all the time but is favorable to. I have been a DR1 stik from the beginning and just started teh camel this week.
We have beat this horse to death and started on another horse. If ya not an experienced stik any plane is gonna be hard at the start. So the game might not be perfectly like real life. The same problem is in the MA as well with some peaple and some planes.
My advice is get in what you want to fly and become the best in it. Whether is be the so called best plane in the arena or the worst, it takes a good pilot to make whatever bird perform like the best. I in no way am stating that I am the best. I had to learn just like the rest of them. I was dieing in the DR1 plenty till I learned from better pilots. It's just a process that everyone has got to take.
-
Lol dog you are right.
My original beef with the Dr1 was the Tie fighter behavior that the anti gravity generator up front produced. Not saying it is wrong. Hell it might be spot on for all I know.
The one thing where I believe I actually have some validity is on the almost non existent structural failure displayed by the Dr1 when compared to the other three rides. The Camel and F2B are easy to break. The D7 less so but still breakable. The Dr1 OTOH is built like a rock. If it failed at anywhere near a comparable rate of even the D7 then the Dr1 weenies might back off a bit on the more Star Warsy maneuvers and make the fighting a bit more believable. To me at least.
With regards to the altitude: No one appears even remotely interested in grabbing these rides up to 10+k for some realistic Camel vs Dr1 beatdowns. People want their quick fix so everyone grabs Dr1s and goes rolling around in the trees. Maybe....
-
YEAGER.....I FULLY AGREE WITH THAT WHOLE POST :salute
-
Last night we fought Worm in a Camel at different altitudes several times , both pilots known each other very well and are evenly matched , we did engage in dogfights several times while testing maneuvers and chatting on private channel at the end of each fight . The result was the higher we went the better chance for success for the Camel ... at 6k high the Dr1 becomes heavier and difficult to maneuver. The Dr1 outclimb the Camel from 0 to 6k (tested w 50% gas , from take off to 6k ) but the camel seems to accelerate and keep energy a little better once engaged... at least I was having a hard time to keep up with him .
Ehre