Image not only a power outage, but actually anything with circuitry or a chip being fried and having to be replaced. Phones, computers, cars, ATM machines, etc.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 20, 2022, 10:17:38 AM
yeah since the 80s I've heard of several of them. then again a meteor the size of mount Wilshire can hit us.
but realistically you won't see humvees on the streets. perhaps on a few places but that's about it. take the city of Los Angeles, it's actually dozens of cities all lumped together. doesn't even include San Bernardino or orange county. you would need hundreds of thousands or armed forces to control. and what about the rest of the country? not enough manpower to even make a dent.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on July 20, 2022, 11:13:18 AM
It will go down by computer hacking not emp- natural or man made imo
The destruction will come as we destroy ourselves through fear and greed
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 20, 2022, 12:06:07 PM
A few guys with rifles can cause this. It’s happened before on small scale at the metcalf substation. Let’s hope the bad guys aren’t sending in teams through our open southern border to do exactly would be required to drop US grid.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 20, 2022, 12:29:42 PM
The power companies should take a hint from Captain Adana.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: MiloMorai on July 20, 2022, 12:43:32 PM
On August 14, 2003, much of the east coast was plunged into darkness. The power outages, which affected more than 50 million people, was sparked by a glitch at an Akron Ohio energy company, causing 265 power plants to shut down. Trains and traffic came to a halt as everyone tried to get out of New York City and back home.
https://youtu.be/FMCPuE_7oE8
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: MiloMorai on July 20, 2022, 12:45:34 PM
As New York and the entire northeast of the United States, quickly followed by southern states in Canada, were plunged into darkness in November 1965, it would prove to be the first of many mysterious “blackouts” that would stretch into the following year.
The one thing that appeared to connect these massive power failures was the appearance of strange objects in the area. They would usually hover over, or near power plants. While authorities, as you might expect, were quick to dispel any notion of alien interest in the Earth’s energy supplies, many other people would push for further study.
As New York and the entire northeast of the United States, quickly followed by southern states in Canada, were plunged into darkness in November 1965, it would prove to be the first of many mysterious “blackouts” that would stretch into the following year.
The one thing that appeared to connect these massive power failures was the appearance of strange objects in the area. They would usually hover over, or near power plants. While authorities, as you might expect, were quick to dispel any notion of alien interest in the Earth’s energy supplies, many other people would push for further study.
if the ufo hotlines limits you to 10 calls a day, you might be a redneck.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: mthrockmor on July 20, 2022, 01:26:10 PM
The danger is real. The biggest issue is hackers. China is a real threat.
The threat is real, the scenario is hugely ugly. We'll see what happens.
https://emptaskforce.us/
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: MiloMorai on July 20, 2022, 01:34:58 PM
One of the biggest service providers in Canada, Rogers, went down almost 2 weeks ago. Rogers said it was their fault but could just have been a hack by China, Russia or some other State.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 20, 2022, 02:26:43 PM
If your power systems are not on the net, they cannot be hacked.
Power companies eliminated many jobs by using internet connections. The savings at the price of more risk will seem stupid in the future.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on July 20, 2022, 03:16:45 PM
Not at all. If they are not connected to the outside world, they can only be accessed from within.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: decoy on July 20, 2022, 04:19:23 PM
It wasn't the power grid, but about a year ago in north Georgia a cell phone switching station lost power and the backup generator failed. Everybody in Georgia north of Macon (about the middle of state) lost cell phone service. People went NUTS.
I can't imagine if Georgia Power's grid went down.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on July 20, 2022, 04:20:19 PM
It wasn't the power grid, but about a year ago in north Georgia a cell phone switching station lost power and the backup generator failed. Everybody in Georgia north of Macon (about the middle of state) lost cell phone service. People went NUTS.
I can't imagine if Georgia Power's grid went down.
OH NOOOOOOS blind peaches. :D
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 20, 2022, 04:36:24 PM
for 6 days a couple of weeks ago I had almost no data service. was driving me nuts. on the local Facebook group others posted the same thing. finally I called spectrum the lady was very nice, did everything she could think of. finally she said last resort it's to change Sim card. next day I drove to their store, half way I stopped for a soda and noticed data was working, turned on youtube was perfect turned around as I got close to my house data stopped. I kept driving 2 miles south data started working. around 2 miles from my house data was bad. next day back to normal. called phone company, I got a bs excuse that everything was working normal. people on Facebook reported data came back at same time as me.
crap happens wish they had been honest.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: AKIron on July 20, 2022, 04:56:12 PM
It wasn't the power grid, but about a year ago in north Georgia a cell phone switching station lost power and the backup generator failed. Everybody in Georgia north of Macon (about the middle of state) lost cell phone service. People went NUTS.
I can't imagine if Georgia Power's grid went down.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 20, 2022, 05:47:12 PM
we wouldn't have had this song.
[https://youtu.be/b07-yKnKRMQ]
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CptTrips on July 20, 2022, 05:57:44 PM
It only takes 9 substations down to take down “the grid”
I assume you are referring to transmission interchanges.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 21, 2022, 02:29:28 PM
Yes, “substations” is broad term. Stations that contain transmission transformers are “sub” to the power generating stations.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 21, 2022, 02:50:53 PM
Only 9 substations?
Boy, I've really missed the memo in my job, either that or someone believes more than they know.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 21, 2022, 03:04:44 PM
Nine…….carefully picked.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 21, 2022, 03:11:17 PM
Again, some wants to believe more than they know.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 21, 2022, 03:31:59 PM
the 9 is based on a paper that is 8 years old. and it says it might not it will.
and they would have to be completely destroyed is my guess, I don't know. I guess down to the foundation.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 21, 2022, 03:37:23 PM
Considering there are a couple of thousand electric utilities in the US most of which have substations. Destroying 9 substations to cause national outages is a stretch, a very long stretch.
Hurricanes slam substations yearly, ice storms, lightening storms, floods, and trees in all of the above.
People in general are very gullible when they don't know much about a subject.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 21, 2022, 04:21:38 PM
just remember the steel company I used to work for, the substation blew up, it was loud, I was cutting slabs, I turned around and started running, I was probably 100 yards from it. no fire just a flash and a bang. another guy was 100 feet away, he was coming down the crane to poop, he didn't need to poop anymore.
took I think 7 days to restore power. they used that incident to upgrade. but half the plant did have power next day.
we got a week off with pay. good thing the furnace did have back up power. it shut down immediately which means 4 or 5 hours. can't shut down a furnace in 30 seconds, those guys were scared
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 21, 2022, 04:31:26 PM
The problem with your story, besides not knowing when you are telling the truth, are drunk, or just stupid, is that you don't know whether the steel company actually owned the substation OR if it was owned by the local power company.
Many large companies own their substations. The local utility sells them power at that point. The local power company doesn't necessarily provide maintenance to that equipment. Neither does the power company manage that equipment.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 21, 2022, 04:33:22 PM
The previous attacks targeted the cooling systems of transmission transformers.
Had they had bigger rifles, the transformers themselves would have needed replacement. That means finding one and transporting them on super wide trailers with telephone line moving and removal required because they are tall and wide.
Do you know where most substations store spare transformers? Right next to the working transformers. My dad worked COG (continuation of government) and his job was assessing risk and security for power grids in the Midwest. He’s worried.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 21, 2022, 04:37:23 PM
The problem with your story, besides not knowing when you are telling the truth, are drunk, or just stupid, is that you don't know whether the steel company actually owned the substation OR if it was owned by the local power company.
Many large companies own their substations. The local utility sells them power at that point. The local power company doesn't necessarily provide maintenance to that equipment. Neither does the power company manage that equipment.
I maybe stupid or drunk or high but it was inside company property, but you are right, I don't know who owns it, but I do know it only supplies to the steel mill.
and it's a small probably 25 yards by 25 yards. maybe less. couldn't even tell you what a substation is but that's what it was called at work
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 21, 2022, 04:54:13 PM
Wow, I didn't know that substations stored transformers. What I do know is that utilities generally try to have spare equipment somewhere in their operations area. That equipment is extremely expensive! So many smaller utilities will not have the spares on hand such as larger outfits. I also know that most utilities have agreements with other companies to help each other in times where spare equipment is not readily available.
So tell me icepac, since you seem to have the assumptions, can transformers in substations be repaired on site? How can a substation cause the national grid to crumble? Can power be diverted to other circuits that allow a substation to basically be skipped? Do you have any direct knowledge of power company operations?
I can answer each of those questions from direct experience, not from a gullible or ignorant position.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Peanut1 on July 21, 2022, 06:41:54 PM
So tell me icepac, since you seem to have the assumptions, can transformers in substations be repaired on site?
Yes, to a certain extent. The Metcalfe transformers only suffered damage to the cooling reservoirs and jackets. If windings were damaged, it's doubtful they would be repaired on site.
I seriously think the Metcalfe attack was purposely planned to NOT destroy the transformers but rather to "warn" of what could have happened. Somebody was trying to make a statement.
How can a substation cause the national grid to crumble? Can power be diverted to other circuits that allow a substation to basically be skipped? Do you have any direct knowledge of power company operations?
I can answer each of those questions from direct experience, not from a gullible or ignorant position. Metcalf was down for nearly a month even though the damage was only to the cooling systems on the transformers.
Nine carefully picked stations downed within minutes. Certainly not "a substation"
No, I'm not going to name the critical stations.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 22, 2022, 03:16:24 PM
Quote
Often, the shipping process is very intense and some will ship two at a time even though only one is being replaced.
Ok, in some instances your statement is correct. In most others it is ambiguous at best. I'm going to stop with that one there and ask exactly how you know this information? Is it thru work experience or that you've talked to a supposed authority/read someones article?
9 carefully selected substations taking down the national grid is silly for a number of reasons. Care to show your conviction and tell me how I am making an incorrect statement? Please don't tell me it is because some government agency says so...
So with a couple of thousand electric utilities in this nation, exactly how many times will that number 9 be multiplied in order to cause a national grid outage? If you really believe that 9 will do it, please explain how...........
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 22, 2022, 06:22:07 PM
Ok, in some instances your statement is correct. In most others it is ambiguous at best. I'm going to stop with that one there and ask exactly how you know this information? Is it thru work experience or that you've talked to a supposed authority/read someones article?
The driver of this plane pictured told me. His last reserve gig had him inspecting critical power stations to rate vulnerability. It was "continuation of goverment" duties.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: SIM on July 22, 2022, 06:51:13 PM
Quote
The driver of this plane pictured told me. His last reserve gig had him inspecting critical power stations to rate vulnerability. It was "continuation of goverment" duties.
That picture says a lot! Thanks for his service to this nation!
But by posting that picture, and your comment, you've essentially shown that you have no direct knowledge of the subject matter we have been discussing.
I am no expert whatsoever, but I have spent most of my adult life working for an electric utility and I take as much pride in that fact as you appear to do about that pilot. I am very familiar with some of the myths that are out there about the "national grid". I also know that every power company in this nation has concerns over security issues. I am bombarded by those concerns on a daily basis, and so are others that frequent this forum. I have spent time working the type of outages you fear. I've been there, done that, more times than most people would understand. What I refuse to "let go", is the absolute idiocy of assumption regarding electrical power utilities. I spend every single day working to provide power to citizens in my area. I work with people that are just as amazing as that pilot. Their dedication to duty, their work ethic, and their attention to detail is oft-times unbelievable. Their commitment to safety for themselves and others is inspiring at the least and damn near god-like at its best. They care, each and every damn one of them try to make things better. Believe it or not, it's not always about the money.... So, when anyone decides that making assumptions about my profession is the only way to come to some sort of conclusion, you are damn right I will speak up and question their comments.
If it were not for linemen, this conversation would not be possible.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 22, 2022, 08:24:30 PM
In the event that a vital power transmission substation goes off line unexpectedly, The nature of the grid allows for “lateral support” by one or more functioning nodes. All goes well assuming the functioning nodes have enough reserve capacity. If not, the supporting nodes could trip and possibly cascade into more nodes going offline.
Is it safe to assume that some regional grids operate near 100% capacity?
How would they carry the extra loading?
My comments in this thread assume a good amount of damage being caused in the attempt to start a cascade of failures.
Had the clowns who took down metcalfe substation had used something stronger than 7.62X39, The incident would have had a much longer lasting effect.
I’m perfectly capable of discussing the dynamic nature of fly back voltage and hole charges on large scale transmission if you want to get that deep. My experience engineering automotive control unit test equipment every time a new family of control units should be enough but I can add my time prototyping power supplies at orbcomm (orbital sciences).
I don’t have to have lineman experience to understand distributed loads and I’m not detailing which stations and ordering of attacks to induce a major catastrophic event.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 22, 2022, 08:57:07 PM
for what I read the 196 something black out happened because off the failure of a single relay.
times have changed but I do believe it's possible to take down the grid. is it likely probably not but the chances are never zero.
will we go back to the planet of the apes. no. or at least I hope not.
semp
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2022, 04:17:15 AM
Linemen, the original storm troopers.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on July 23, 2022, 06:26:04 AM
It doesn't have to be nation wide just your neighborhood for things to get interesting
Eagler
the northern part of the city gets electricity shut off when the Santana winds come down. I hear on the local Facebook group. nice homes but not worth 700k. no power for days at a time. too cheap to spend on a house generator. oh well. no riots at least.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 23, 2022, 03:19:27 PM
If you’re going to generate, look for about 10kv or more. 1800rpm diesel generators are less thirsty and a bit more quiet.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2022, 11:00:29 PM
I ordered my 24kw Generac 2 months after the February freeze last year. It finally came in and was installed in March this year.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on July 23, 2022, 11:29:03 PM
That's nice. I wouldn't mind having one and a big giant propane tank.
I live in a very mild climate but I've been looking at property in Michigan.
I bought a new 500 gallon propane tank. That way I can use whatever supplier I choose. My home is electric so I did not have propane. You can run it on LP but it will only produce 22kw max on that.
I had them run a line to my back patio for my Webber 4 burner and Blackstone 4 burner.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on July 24, 2022, 06:59:04 AM
I bought a new 500 gallon propane tank. That way I can use whatever supplier I choose. My home is electric so I did not have propane. You can run it on LP but it will only produce 22kw max on that.
I had them run a line to my back patio for my Webber 4 burner and Blackstone 4 burner.
Sounds like a nice setup Shuffler
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 24, 2022, 10:44:47 AM
A pallet of cheap, used solar panels, two large inverters with required control units and batteries for a “power wall” stored in a metal boxes is a good start. Said metal box needs attention to make it into a faraday cage. That would survive a large EMP event. Just don’t take them out for a few days because weaponized EMP pulses mean a scenario where there would likely be more. It would suck to set up your emergency generation/storage just to have a subsequent EMP pulse damage your ability to generate power.
A deep well pump usually requires up to 6kw to start and run and I consider having water to be the most important for survival. A working well pump is usually not easily identified by outsiders because most deep well pumps are silent.
During a long blackout event (one month or more), don’t flaunt that you have power because the “have nots” will surely be attracted like a moth to flame. It’s hard to conceal solar cell arrays and generate power with them.
It’s best to present a “we’ve got nothing” view to society until law and order are once again established.
If power goes down in a nuclear attack scenario, there really would be no safe haven much like in the movie “on the beach”. Not sure how Fred Astaire ended up in the cast of a disaster movie but he was also in “towering inferno”.
I bought a new 500 gallon propane tank. That way I can use whatever supplier I choose. My home is electric so I did not have propane. You can run it on LP but it will only produce 22kw max on that.
I had them run a line to my back patio for my Webber 4 burner and Blackstone 4 burner.
I would love to do that very same thing. That sounds like a great setup.
My nephew bought his fist house. He lives in Arizona. He has a Tesla whole-house battery setup. I want to ask him if he has a generator and solar too. He's just a kid still but he's a wizard engineer - so he can afford these things.
I think a lithium battery backup system would be really nice to have too. Some day I hope to have a small place with a little bit of land in an area that has ample water and the possibly of limited hunting and fishing. And gardening. Like I said, I'm looking at upper Michigan. I've only ever lived in Phoenix and southern California though - so that cold weather is something I'm thinking through at the moment. lol.
What part of the country are you in? Is it Texas?
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on July 24, 2022, 12:29:37 PM
With electrical storage comes risk of fire. Cheapest power wall DIY would be with LiPo batteries like hobby town rc batteries. The problem is these batteries often burn electric bikes after hitting a large bump. Imagine that happening within your house.
A power wall constructed with 18650 batteries is much safer. That’s what many Tesla cars use in their battery pack. LifePo4 are a bit safer than most other lithium batteries.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on July 24, 2022, 12:38:07 PM
Good point. I would be concerned about fire.
Maybe make a special underground room just for the batteries?
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on July 25, 2022, 08:38:23 AM
I am in East Texas.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on July 26, 2022, 01:08:18 PM
are you aware that the SOR is not a literal thing? It's just funds for more fuel... lol
It is the largest known strategic stockpile of oil in the world. There are underground storage tanks in Louisiana and Texas. 714 million barrels can be stored there.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: MiloMorai on July 26, 2022, 09:57:48 PM
It is the largest known strategic stockpile of oil in the world. There are underground storage tanks in Louisiana and Texas. 714 million barrels can be stored there.
You are a where that these underground tanks are old salt mines.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on July 26, 2022, 10:29:00 PM
not entirely accurate only one was a Morton salt mine and is no longer used. but they're all salt mines per say but salt was not mine.
by the way the life expectancy is only a few years from now.
semp
The SPR management office is located in Elmwood, Louisiana, a suburb of New Orleans.
The reserve is stored at four sites on the Gulf of Mexico, each located near a major center of petrochemical refining and processing. Each site contains a number of artificial caverns created in salt domes below the surface.
Individual caverns within a site can be up to 1,000 m (3,300 ft) below the surface. Average dimensions are 60 m (200 ft) wide and 600 m (2,000 ft) deep; capacity ranges from 6 to 37 million barrels (950,000 to 5,880,000 m3). Almost $4 billion was spent on the facilities. The decision to store in caverns was made to reduce costs. The Department of Energy claims that it is approximately ten times more cost effective to store oil below the surface, with the added advantages of no leaks and a constant natural churn of the oil due to a temperature gradient in the caverns. The caverns were created by drilling down and then dissolving the salt with water.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on July 26, 2022, 11:37:22 PM
A story you might find interesting. There is a good video about it on YouTube Lake Peigneur drilling accident.
Oh yes! I remember seeing that several years ago. That is incredibly scary. Can you imagine being sucked into that or being on that lake when that water is going down that thing? Or being the people that were underneath it? I forgot if there was people underneath it or not?
There was a recent video from Israel where they were having a pool party and a sinkhole opened up under the pool and it sucked all the water out and it sucked one person into it. They were all just sitting around mostly and not doing anything but then what could they do? They found the person's body about 600 ft down a drainage pipe or something.
Things like that lake though are amazing to me. Giant barges being sucked down. The sheer size of it.
That also reminds me of those coal fires that are burning underground for a hundred years or more and that they expect to burn for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: MiloMorai on July 27, 2022, 10:03:14 AM
The Centralia mine fire is a coal-seam fire that has been burning in the labyrinth of abandoned coal mines underneath the borough of Centralia, Pennsylvania, United States, since at least May 27, 1962. Its original cause is still a matter of debate. It is burning in underground coal mines at depths of up to 300 ft (90 m) over an 8 mi (13 km) stretch of 3,700 acres (15 km2). At its current rate, it could continue to burn for over 250 years.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on July 28, 2022, 09:08:27 AM
They say it could have even been started by a camp fire that was over a exposed patch of coal. Interesting stuff for sure.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Vulcan on July 28, 2022, 08:15:16 PM
We just had a couple of tourists steam cooked by a geothermal sinkhole opening up under a footpath. Both survived but one sounds real bad.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: zack1234 on July 28, 2022, 11:54:59 PM
Was it Trumps fault and did Clinton save the poor?
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: dieter on July 29, 2022, 05:57:05 PM
Another Carrington event is going to happen, it's just a matter of time. The collapse of the magnetosphere is another thing that will happen, and since we're still essentially monkeys banging rocks together, we don't understand the true mechanics. The magnetosphere collapse is tied to the pole reversals that happen with a cycle that appears to be somewhat predictable. That happens every so often, but with today's electronics, the problem will be on par with a Carrington like event. A civilization collapse is never really that far away with the things that can go wrong. This is a subject (EMP, Power Grids, etc.) that is best discussed in private, as you really don't want to give ignorant people any ideas. Perhaps a good discussion on whether red chile or green chile is best may be more appropriate?
Dieter
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: RotBaron on July 29, 2022, 08:19:45 PM
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on August 01, 2022, 02:05:25 PM
Norway is a very small country and they get most of their electricity from hydroelectric. It's not like most countries would be able to do that. So you can't really point to something like that and say they went all renewable energy just because they have giant potential for hydroelectric dams and a very small country.
A place like China or the United States or Russia or most countries it will be a pipe dream.
Not that we can't go a long way toward renewable energy
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Arlo on August 01, 2022, 02:10:34 PM
Wrong thread?
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: FLOOB on August 01, 2022, 05:44:27 PM
Rioting would start immediately. Looters in a blackout know they’re in a race against time. Some of us would fare better than others.
https://youtu.be/xWMj-mFUDGA
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: -gg- on August 02, 2022, 08:44:21 AM
Rioting would start immediately. Looters in a blackout know they’re in a race against time. Some of us would fare better than others.
https://youtu.be/xWMj-mFUDGA
Excellent video.
I remember all of that well. If that isn't a prime example of armed citizens protecting themselves and their community, I don't know what is.
People don't realize how fast society can break down. Hours. and the police or medical aid will not be there for you.
Another example is the aftermath of hurricane Katrina - only that time police attempted to disarm citizens. at first.
Recently I have witnessed other minor riots in Los Angeles county. I believe it was the George Floyd riots. It went on sporadically for a few weeks here.
I was in the field as IT for places like Target, 711, Home Depot, and others. Some of those places were decimated. The rioters even started to target more affluent neighborhoods, just because. There were curfews but we were exempt. Some neighborhoods were too dangerous to go into,
The rioters, in my opinion, are mostly opportunists. Most of them are out destroying things and stealing things because they know they can. I've seen the patterns. Peaceful protesting during the day, thugs at night.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on September 07, 2022, 07:43:05 PM
I’ll bet it wouldn’t take much to cause a significant blackout event in California considering they are running near or over capacity.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Ripsnort on September 07, 2022, 07:59:58 PM
When I read the book "One Second After" the wife and I began prepping. We are up to 1.5 years of stores, food, medical, etc in our SHTF storage now. And living in MT in the high country with a fresh water source.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on September 07, 2022, 08:42:42 PM
you just made everyone at the bar laugh. you are a funny guy :rofl
semp
And you are quite Simp.
Coogan
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on September 13, 2022, 09:43:43 AM
The obvious thing people are missing is that they will actually have to educate themselves on the new electrical devices. If you don’t, you will be ripped off badly.
Electric everything is coming and it won’t be stopped. A little research on the part of consumers would benefit everybody……..unless you want to pay for what you could simply do yourself.
What none of the vocal protagonists is mentioning is how more points of generation strengthen or help support the grid” because the generation is spread across the grid. They’re too busy screaming at us to adopt without research and reflection.
Instead of ramming it down our throats before the tech. is ready, maybe they should mention how we can benefit right now in the form of grid support offered by having a good amount of the the population with generation (or storage) capability.
This means possibly not having to double the amount of high voltage transmission lines once charging an electric vehicle becomes more common.
While solar and wind contribute very little to the grid currently, they are still useful to lessen the impact of a key power transmission station failure and possibly stop a cascading failure.
“Points of generation” (likely incorrect term) I’m describing anything connected to the grid which can send power to the grid whether battery banks, home solar, or anything else that meets the requirement.
At some point, though, we need to make sure we aren’t vulnerable to having our energy throttled remotely by whoever controls the power companies.
It’s a double edged sword. Research research research because not doing so could adversely affect your life.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on December 05, 2022, 05:41:18 AM
Power companies going to build some concrete walls after last night.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 05, 2022, 07:30:23 AM
An idea stolen from a black mirror episode and modified..
Everyone over the age of 12 are issued their government energy generating exercise bikes which are monitored for daily activity..
In order to exist you are required to exercise and generate your daily allotment of energy as determined by our green energy leaders..
Those that have more times on their hands and sit around all day can provide more energy..
Your SNAP distribution is tied directly to your energy generation participation..as it is also tied to your medical records
Participation is mandatory and a daily doctors excuse is required to be excused..the excuse has to be provided by your Obamacare HDHP doc via a televised monitored visit ...
Might have to pedal for an hour to be issued 2hrs of AH play time or tv watching..
Throw in a digital currency tie in..
This scenario is also only if we are still this side of a civilized society which is questionable every time I turn on the tele...
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on December 05, 2022, 07:39:46 AM
I wrote something very similar to that episode in 1982.
I wouldn’t worry about that far forward in time just yet.
I’m worried about the next few months.
Pallet of solar panels (new or used), carefully selected inverters to handle well pump start loads, two LifePo4 48v batteries, hardwood stove……etc.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 05, 2022, 09:14:01 AM
Power companies going to build some concrete walls after last night.
i'm assuming this is in reference to the attack on the substations in north carolina?
those aren't the first. i heard there were some in kalifornia also attacked recently. if i gotta be honest, i'm very surprised it took them this long to start hitting those.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CAP1 on December 06, 2022, 07:32:19 AM
now......
if something happened that the entire countries grid(s) went down....or even saaaayyyy.....just 1/3 of it.......there would be almost immediate rioting/looting. it would take at LEAST a week for any branches of the military to begin any form of effective patrolling. this would however be useless, as they are severely outnumbered, even when combined with the local/county/state law enforcement agencies. initially the rioting/looting will be just the same crap we've seen in the past with the blantifa morons. once they've realized that power's not coming back anytime soon, then the real "fun" starts, and many will die. the blantifa morons first, as they're not prepared for the resistance they'll encounter when they try raiding someones home and taking their food, followed by those who thought that they didn't need any specific tools or training as they squirl'd away their food/med supplies.
this will take less than a month. and depending on what's been damaged to take it all down, it will be months or years before reliable power's restored
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Nefarious on December 06, 2022, 08:03:09 AM
Cantwait.gif
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on December 07, 2022, 08:08:51 PM
Charterer North Carolina had a substation shot up 3 weeks ago. Leaking coolant……etc.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on December 08, 2022, 06:47:32 AM
One power station in N.C. was hit 3 weeks ago . Four power stations were shot up November in Washington and Oregon.
Brings it to 7 stations shot in 1 month if you count Moore county for 2 stations…..which it was.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CAP1 on December 08, 2022, 07:21:59 AM
probing attacks.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: GasTeddy on December 08, 2022, 07:22:23 AM
You would think with the availability of drones, homemade terror weapons wouldn't be to difficult to piece together...
An organized attack on multiple targets at the same time would make it interesting quickly
The terror such attacks would create would crash the markets just as if it were 9/11 imo
Eagler
they're not. anyone with any basic knowledge can do what you mentioned above. thankfully we're not a country full of extremists and terrorists. sadly though it would seem that many extremists and terrorists are entering the country illegally. and they have said knowledge.
i'd like to think i'm wrong on what's gonna happen when they do the next "big one". i pray i am to be honest.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Vulcan on December 08, 2022, 05:19:34 PM
We (NZ) just chucked a guy in jail under a charge of sabotage : https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/478077/who-is-graham-philip-the-first-new-zealander-convicted-of-sabotage
Guys a bit of a nutter, his brother was convicted of murder and cannibalism.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on December 09, 2022, 09:33:59 AM
More like $131 per day (based on $3.29 gal). Really less as my home is pretty efficient. I really like that now my whole home is on a surge protector. I still have a battery backup on my main computer. If the power drops the generator starts instantly but runs a few seconds to get the power clean at 60Hz before switching over. The norm for this is 8 seconds. When the area power comes back up, the generator keeps running for a short bit while making sure the grid power is clean and stable, then it shuts off.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Brooke on December 09, 2022, 03:14:14 PM
If the national power grid were down for a month, I think a lot of people would die.
Right away, there would be rioting, looting, arson, and breakdown of law and safety in numerous cities.
Folks in bad shape in hospitals and some who need specialized treatment or medicine might die.
Within a couple weeks, there might be people in arid regions dying from lack of water, depending on how well organized are the groups that have generators and access to water.
There would be an economic crash that could last to well after restoration of power.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on December 09, 2022, 03:24:36 PM
If the national power grid were down for a month, I think a lot of people would die.
Right away, there would be rioting, looting, arson, and breakdown of law and safety in numerous cities.
Folks in bad shape in hospitals and some who need specialized treatment or medicine might die.
Within a couple weeks, there might be people in arid regions dying from lack of water, depending on how well organized are the groups that have generators and access to water.
There would be an economic crash that could last to well after restoration of power.
It would definitely thin the city folks.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Meatwad on December 09, 2022, 04:07:04 PM
my house is small. like less than 1,000 square ft small. i can run almost my whole house on a 5500w portable. i keep at least 1 vehicle with a full tank of gas at home, so i've generally got anywhere from 20 to 50 gallons of gasoline to run it. it'll be noisy though, which would force me to probably have to defend my home. i can run it inside the garage(separated from the house) to minimize heard noise. it's not automatic though. i have to go switch the mains off then fire this up.
lets all hope this doesn't come to fruition, 'cause if it does, i don't really care who thinks they're "billybadass"........not a single one of us is truly ready for something like this to happen. some are more prepared than others.....but it's gonna be soooooo much worse than anyone expects or thinks it's gonna be.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: JimmyD3 on December 10, 2022, 12:06:52 AM
gas pumps work on electricity. no advantage over ev.
semp
there sure is. even my excursion will still be sipping(big sips, lolol) gasoline when your f150 lightning or ev hummer runs out of battery charge. that is of course presuming that "they" haven't just shut off all of the electrics.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 10, 2022, 07:53:31 AM
there sure is. even my excursion will still be sipping(big sips, lolol) gasoline when your f150 lightning or ev hummer runs out of battery charge. that is of course presuming that "they" haven't just shut off all of the electrics.
there's no special electrical lines going to gas stations. so no juice for evs, no gas for cars. well unless gas stations install hand crank pumps then one that station runs out of gas since refineries run on electricity. not including the mess no street lights will create.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on December 10, 2022, 12:33:33 PM
they're not. anyone with any basic knowledge can do what you mentioned above. thankfully we're not a country full of extremists and terrorists. sadly though it would seem that many extremists and terrorists are entering the country illegally. and they have said knowledge.
i'd like to think i'm wrong on what's gonna happen when they do the next "big one". i pray i am to be honest.
Just be sure you are getting clean 60Hz power. I have a lot of electronics in my home, computers, refrigerator, oven, dishwasher, etc. They all have electronic boards these days.
I own my 500 gallon tank so I can buy from any suppliers around here.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Brooke on December 10, 2022, 02:23:59 PM
there's no special electrical lines going to gas stations. so no juice for evs, no gas for cars. well unless gas stations install hand crank pumps then one that station runs out of gas since refineries run on electricity. not including the mess no street lights will create.
semp
I think folks are saying that gas vehicles would be used and useful if the grid were down for a month, whereas electric vehicles would be useless once out of the current charge.
Yes, if electricity were unavailable for too long, gas would run out. So would food, medicine, healthcare, and everything else. Also, sanitation would become a problem.
Once transportation is down, food would be out in 3 days. That's about how much stock supermarkets keep.
If we had an EMP or Carrington Event, a lot of people would die.
Carrington Event would burn out the power grid. But equipment such as cars, trucks, and generators, would still work for as long as there is any gasoline.
Country-wide EMP would be the worst, as it would burn out everything with wires in it, connected to the grid at the time or not. The power grid *and* cars, trucks, generators, pumps, pumping stations, power stations would be burned out. Even 1930's Soviet tractors don't survive EMP. Under that situation, folks are immediately restricted to an area that is how far they can walk. In places without fresh water, folks would die in a week. For the rest, they'd last a month or two, as food would run out in a few days.
I think odds of a country-wide EMP attack are low. But it is easy for any country with nukes to take out the entire US this way with only a few nukes exploded above atmosphere; and the consequences are death for the unprepared. That's what caused me to do the easiest, cheapest path possible for preparing. Rice and beans in 5 gallon buckets, with sealed mylar bag inside and an oxygen absorber in it. Each 5-gal bucket worth is about $25 to do, provides 1 man-month of calories, takes no special storage, and will last for 30 years. Also rice+beans makes complete protein that a human can live off of. That plus a water filter that can input ditch water and get drinkable water out, and a big bag of salt.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: guncrasher on December 10, 2022, 04:23:27 PM
I understand that brooks. but gas vehicles would only run with the gas they have in their tanks and just like ev it's dead cars everywhere.
unless of course gas stations use hand pumps. but then it comes the problem of where to get them. no registers no sales. assuming employees will even show up as they can't get paid.
I've seen a block lose electricity not sure why. grocery store, bank, gas station and maybe 12 small stores all employees standing outside waiting. took about 1 hour.
so for those that are planning to laugh at evs, well your car won't have gas either. in the end of the world scenario you write about
me I don't care since I'm supposed to die next year from the 4 covid shots I took. according to some people here.
semp
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CAP1 on December 10, 2022, 09:21:50 PM
there's no special electrical lines going to gas stations. so no juice for evs, no gas for cars. well unless gas stations install hand crank pumps then one that station runs out of gas since refineries run on electricity. not including the mess no street lights will create.
semp
you are partially correct. the stupid people that constantly run their vehicles on or near "E" ('cause yaknow?E=Enough i guess) will run out of gas quickly. those of us that keep our tanks full on all of our vehicles will have some time. and my point was that with a 50 gallon tank(47 actually), when the average battery car runs outta juice, i'll probably still have a half of a tank. also.....many gas stations(at least here in nj) have backup gennys. now since we're talkin' gas stations, what SHOULD worry people is that many gas stations keep less than 1/4 of their capacity in the ground. that would run out in less than a week.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CAP1 on December 10, 2022, 09:26:35 PM
Just be sure you are getting clean 60Hz power. I have a lot of electronics in my home, computers, refrigerator, oven, dishwasher, etc. They all have electronic boards these days.
I own my 500 gallon tank so I can buy from any suppliers around here.
i'm not sure what hz i'm getting. tv's and stereos plugged into surge protectors. computer is on a apc ups. you'll love this. my fridge is from somewhere around 1977. :D got a meat freezer in the basement that's from around 73. got an old philco fridge from the 50's. that one's unplugged though, although it was functioning when i pulled the plug. i don't have much else to worry about electronic-wise. like i said....my house is tiny. at one point i was gonna try to sell, buy something bigger/newer/nicer for mom to live out her final years in something nice.....when i offered that to her, she got mad and said she just wants to stay right here in my house. i don't need anything more than what i've got....it keeps me warm/cool/dry when it needs to do any of those, and lets me spend money on more fun stuff like cars/guns/computers etc.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Shuffler on December 11, 2022, 05:07:17 AM
i'm not sure what hz i'm getting. tv's and stereos plugged into surge protectors. computer is on a apc ups. you'll love this. my fridge is from somewhere around 1977. :D got a meat freezer in the basement that's from around 73. got an old philco fridge from the 50's. that one's unplugged though, although it was functioning when i pulled the plug. i don't have much else to worry about electronic-wise. like i said....my house is tiny. at one point i was gonna try to sell, buy something bigger/newer/nicer for mom to live out her final years in something nice.....when i offered that to her, she got mad and said she just wants to stay right here in my house. i don't need anything more than what i've got....it keeps me warm/cool/dry when it needs to do any of those, and lets me spend money on more fun stuff like cars/guns/computers etc.
LOL yup... my last fridge was almost 30 years old when I retired it. Sits I'm my Father-in-laws shop keeping drinks cold now. Not efficient but it is cold. The new stuff will not last that long with all the electronics on board.
By the way.... all I ever had to do to that old fridge is change out the timer on the ice maker. It was 15 bucks and took about 15 minutes to change.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 11, 2022, 07:55:36 AM
Semp that is what this thread is really about...
That an extended power outage should not be an "end of world scenario" but due to our level of civility and government/ personal preparations or lack of them.. it will more than likely become such an event for many
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on December 11, 2022, 11:48:18 AM
Once “the tough” get going, the going get’s “tougher”.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: CptTrips on December 11, 2022, 03:03:45 PM
Or store guns and ammo instead. And develop a taste for human flesh.
With all the contamination via processed food that people eat it’s not that good, it has a somewhat bitter aftertaste akin to half spoiled pork. If you could find a vegan that actually has some meat on their bones that might make for a fine meal.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: GasTeddy on December 12, 2022, 07:11:16 AM
I understand that brooks. but gas vehicles would only run with the gas they have in their tanks and just like ev it's dead cars everywhere.
unless of course gas stations use hand pumps. but then it comes the problem of where to get them.
semp
Service station fuel pumps can be hand cranked by removing the panel covering the electric motor and the pump. Remove the belt coming from the motor to the pump unit. Put a hand crank to the nut holding pumps pulley and start rotating. Been there, done that in exercise. Slow, but works.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 12, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
Service station fuel pumps can be hand cranked by removing the panel covering the electric motor and the pump. Remove the belt coming from the motor to the pump unit. Put a hand crank to the nut holding pumps pulley and start rotating. Been there, done that in exercise. Slow, but works.
I can picture the pants on the ground a47 swinging group standing aroung their 55 gallon drums while their homies take turn cranking on the pump while the rest of us stay out of the way..even the police at that point will find other things to do..
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: GasTeddy on December 12, 2022, 08:01:20 AM
I can picture the pants on the ground a47 swinging group standing aroung their 55 gallon drums while their homies take turn cranking on the pump while the rest of us stay out of the way..even the police at that point will find other things to do..
Eagler
I'd still rather crank some 15 minutes than push my Jeep, if those were the options.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: Eagler on December 12, 2022, 08:40:57 AM
Sure..just be ready to remove those standing guard over the underground tanks..that will be the issue imo
The reality of such a disaster would make the worse end of days hollywood flick look Disneyish imo
Eagler
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on February 07, 2023, 08:06:44 AM
Baltimore attack foiled.
Title: Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
Post by: icepac on November 03, 2023, 02:17:25 PM
I hope the utility companies have used this time to take critical equipment off of the net and manned the bigger stations.
Hamas threatens attacks on US soil. I wonder what their preferred target may be.