Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kazaa on September 18, 2009, 10:16:04 AM
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... after it was nerfed to the ground!
That's all.
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Here we go.
:lol
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Actually it was over-modeled to begin with...its now closer to the real thing.
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... after it was nerfed to the ground!
That's all.
Tell that to the real Wirbel gunners. They would probably had agreed with you that cranking the turret by hand wasn't "fun" ;)
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It'll take some getting used to, still landed 9 kills in it last night though, including a 262 :lol
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ha im glad that its turret moves slower its not so deadly anymore tired of that thing killing me all the time :lol
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Just got two kills in one. No more whipping that turret around. :lol :lol
I've flown by those things at 400 mph only have them track me. I think its a great change!
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It'll take some getting used to, still landed 9 kills in it last night though, including a 262 :lol
i could never hit anything in the dam thing anyway......unless i drove into a tree or something.
i do much better in the m16's to be honest......
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
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This is a bad change.
just for some. OF course it was overmodeled to start with
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When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
Maybe you should switch to the aluminum plane. :rolleyes:
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
A SINGLE 50 CAL ROUND could damage the gear drive. it could kill the dood spinning the wheel.
the multiple 20mm rounds could simply pass through hollow portions of the plane, not hitting anythign vital.
just sayin.....
when i't my plane? they never miss. :rofl
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As a Wirbel Junkie I will agree that the modeling was incorrect to begin with. I spent time practicing and implementing different ways of dealing with the now much slower turret speed. Yes I came up with some workable strategies! I began having success again, but crossing shots of a high speed target are a thing of the past unless you can get a burst in ahead of the con and let them fly through the stream of shells. Frontal shots are still plain deadly to aircraft. I congratulate you HTC on your willingness to stick to accuracy.
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I admit it's tougher to gun in one now, but that has two sides to it... Always hated getting torched by them from the air too... so I am glad to see the turret speed corrected.
For me, I never used the Wirble that much... mostly the Ostie (whose turret speed has also been reduced)... and mainly as a town assault vehicle. Air defense in them has always been secondary for me. So I will still keep upping in them, and still using them to wreck towns with. And if the pilots are foolish enough to come at me head on when I am in one, then they will go down just as easy as before. It just means that one Flakpanzer cant defend on his own as easily now... a little teamwork is needed.
Yeah, the turret is weak, but it's open... so it always will be weak. I have taken shots in the turret and not been damaged... it just depends on the angle.
It will just take some getting used to.
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It might be tougher to wipe out an entire horde with one or maybe,require teamwork or new tactics. :huh
Changes in the game are challenge to some and blasphemy to others.
Let the whining commence. :D
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
The turret is open topped. Shells going into there and bouncing around can be devastating.
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See Rule #6
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As has been said:
The turret traverse on the WW was modelled incorrectly before. And why are you complaining? You still have a historically inaccurate rate and volume of fire to play with (WWs could NOT sustain fire from all four guns the way they can in the game due to how they were loaded).
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GOOOOOOOOOOD RIDDENS to fast turrets!
:rofl
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
Its an open turret, its not out of the realm of possibility of a single .50 cal hitting one of the crew in the open turret and killing them. HTC didn't cave into anyone, they fixed a problem with the turret turn rate that was unrealistic until the change.
ack-ack
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Hitech & crew model it according to pertinant data found, I'm sure.
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I think balance is a good idea, no point in having non perked planes or gv's that unhinge the game play. Next thing to fix is the auto ack. At D6.0 there is no way the AI gunner can know which way I am going to turn, The shells have a fixed patch once fired and that correction takes time. the fly by wire 5" shells are just plain stupid and affect game play. One other thing, proximity fuses did not enter service until mid 42, they should be deleted in EW and perhaps MW, it would be an interesting experiment as long as bomber accuracy was addressed too. No one every hit a capital ship with four engined bombers, almost all hits were dive bombers and torps.
Over all I think good tactics should be allowed to produce good results.
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It's gun movements are slower, but you put two of them together and use constant Vox to call out the EA, man o man we had a blast.... me and a squadie had over 12 kills protecting our spawn point, just adapt how you fight with it thats all.
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No worries, we (L.T.A.R.) will work out some new tactics and everything will go back to normal just like after every other change. :rock
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No worries, we (L.T.A.R.) will work out some new tactics and everything will go back to normal just like after every other change. :rock
Were doing that right now, see above post.... its just like flying you need a wingman to watch your back, just apply that to the wurble.... travel as one = die travel as 2 or 3 = killing machines
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:cry :cry :cry
:uhoh
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It would be nice to have 5" with contact fuse shells....
Would bring the 5" back in to some of the early time-period scenarios perhaps?
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No one every hit a capital ship with four engined bombers, almost all hits were dive bombers and torps.
No one ever bombed a capital ship with a 4-engined bomber from 10,000 feet, or lower....
I do agree with you, however.
wrongway
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No one every hit a capital ship with four engined bombers, almost all hits were dive bombers and torps.
The ability of high altitude heavy bombers to hit a maneuvering warship was greatly exaggerated historically. Their increased effectiveness in AH may not be a result of made modeling by HTC. There are a lot of factors that they simply have no control over. They can model accurate speeds by both the bomber and the ship, as well as accurate speeds of the bombs along their flight path but what they can't model is the fact that our cartoon bombardiers have a lot more practice in hitting those moving targets. There are bomber pilots who know exactly how much to lead and offset their drops to hit a CV from a given alt regardless of what the ship captain does (assuming there is even someone on or near the CV trying to swing it out of harms way).
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The ability of high altitude heavy bombers to hit a maneuvering warship was greatly exaggerated historically. Their increased effectiveness in AH may not be a result of made modeling by HTC. There are a lot of factors that they simply have no control over. They can model accurate speeds by both the bomber and the ship, as well as accurate speeds of the bombs along their flight path but what they can't model is the fact that our cartoon bombardiers have a lot more practice in hitting those moving targets. There are bomber pilots who know exactly how much to lead and offset their drops to hit a CV from a given alt regardless of what the ship captain does (assuming there is even someone on or near the CV trying to swing it out of harms way).
none of what you said has anything whatsoever to do with bombing CVs in AH vs real life........... real life didnt have F6 easy calibration..... nuff said
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No wind... no freezing cold... nothing but simple calibration.
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No wind is exactly right, so far as I'm concerned, there should be wind on every map, in every arena, and speed and direction should be changing at least daily. As for 4 engined bombers bombing the CV, in real life do ya think they would have made it through the ack @ 3k - 5k ? I gotta believ the answer is " probably not"
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It would be nice to have 5" with contact fuse shells....
Would bring the 5" back in to some of the early time-period scenarios perhaps?
I think the HE 5" shell hitting a plane would just about be the same. The blast radius is still there.
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no matter how good the gunner now........any and all wirbs are insta-dead now with two planes simply coordinating an attack from opposite sides...
ya wanna make it realistic? allow us to jump out and away when we hear...but can no longer shoot at.......the plane coming behind us.
real bad move folks... real bad. two thumbs down.
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No matter what you do, people will ALWAYS find something to gripe about. #S# HTC.
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No one every hit a capital ship with four engined bombers, almost all hits were dive bombers and torps.
Tirpitz?
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No matter what you do, people will ALWAYS find something to gripe about. #S# HTC.
they can live with that I'm sure.....but as I said on another thead......it may very well cost them new customers.
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no matter how good the gunner now........any and all wirbs are insta-dead now with two planes simply coordinating an attack from opposite sides...
ya wanna make it realistic? allow us to jump out and away when we hear...but can no longer shoot at.......the plane coming behind us.
real bad move folks... real bad. two thumbs down.
The attackers aren't supposed to use tactics do defeat a mobile AA threat? The attackers only supposed to attack one at a time, from the same direction, and preferably in a conga line to make it easier to shoot them down?
Your complaint is pretty much the same as those that cry about planes bombing their tanks. The only worth your complaint has is the humor factor when you whine about the changes.
ack-ack
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they can live with that I'm sure.....but as I said on another thead......it may very well cost them new customers.
:rofl No one comes to a flight game to drive vehicles. Usually they find they have troubles in planes so they move to vehicles.
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:rofl No one comes to a flight game to drive vehicles. Usually they find they have troubles in planes so they move to vehicles.
ooorrrrrr......
they have a problem with something that may prevent them from effectively flying a fighter.........like......dar e i mention?
an infected toe(que horror/comedy echo now)
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Tirpitz?
and point goes to Slash :aok
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Topic says "Wirbies" and Banshee7 comes in to orally clean HT exit chamber,, ack-ack.. back to mid-war and "grab-up". Start another topic if you wanna "whine bash" ..Slower turret,, yes... tin foil turret,, yup..i personally think they should make the turret a little tuffer. Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
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Tirpitz?
:aok
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Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
SSSHHHHH........ these girls dont want to hear any mention of nerfing a plane......... they need the gv to be easy mode kills to help their SCORES.........
they will sit all day long and tell you about historical modeling and realism until you make a change on any plane let alone the spixteen......... then its whine whine whine
I give up...... and yes ladies in the other thread too even though you are wrong........... let them nerf the GV game and think AH is all about the sky............ then tell us later about numbers
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Topic says "Wirbies" and Banshee7 comes in to orally clean HT exit chamber,, ack-ack.. back to mid-war and "grab-up". Start another topic if you wanna "whine bash" ..Slower turret,, yes... tin foil turret,, yup..i personally think they should make the turret a little tuffer. Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
Prove that there is a problem with the Spitfire Mk XVI's modeling with some film in game showing what you claim it can do and real life flight data. This way we can see if what you say is true or just an example of another player of mediocre skill and ability crying about the Spitfire.
ack-ack
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Topic says "Wirbies" and Banshee7 comes in to orally clean HT exit chamber,, ack-ack.. back to mid-war and "grab-up". Start another topic if you wanna "whine bash" ..Slower turret,, yes... tin foil turret,, yup..i personally think they should make the turret a little tuffer. Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
go to the ta, and find snaphook.
he'll merge with you, in any plane, and do just what you described.
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Prove that there is a problem with the Spitfire Mk XVI's modeling with some film in game showing what you claim it can do and real life flight data. This way we can see if what you say is true or just an example of another player of mediocre skill and ability crying about the Spitfire.
ack-ack
first mediocre skill is something you should know very much about......... dont bring your inadequecies to the boards
second no proof is needed for you........ as I can simply scroll through your posts and find accounts of you yourself stating the spixteen is overmodeled as with many others on the historical accuracy bandwagon..........
its only important when you dont have a horse in the race I guess
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first mediocre skill is something you should know very much about......... dont bring your inadequecies to the boards
Oh please, don't even try and go there. There is not a fighter in this game that you can even remotely stand a chance against me in 1v1. I will be more than happy to show you my *snicker* mediocre skills if you like.
ack-ack
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Tirpitz?
Level 4 engine bombers never sank a "Moving" capital ship. Tirpitz was at
anchor when it was bombed, and it took a few trips for them to sink it still.
The Tirpitz was ready for action again in the Spring of 1944 and once again she represented a real danger to Allied shipping. On April 2nd, a carrier-based plane attack was launched on the Tirpitz that was anchored in Altenfjord. The first strike had complete surprise and the ship was badly damaged. 122 crew were killed and 316 were injured. Major damage was only averted by the fact that a 1,600 lb bomb was dropped from a low altitude and failed to penetrate the armoured deck of the Tirpitz The attack disabled the Tirpitz for three months.
The Fleet Air Arm continued its attacks but the Tirpitz was invariably saved by bad weather. On August 22nd, 1944, in yet another raid, a 1,600 lb bomb did penetrate 8 decks but failed to explode. The Germans later found that it had only been half-filled with explosives rendering it redundant.
On September 15th, the Tirpitz was attacked by Lancaster bombers. One bomb hit her and peeled back her deck. She was now no longer seaworthy and it was decided to send the ship to be anchored off of Haakoy Island, three miles from Tromsö where she would operate as a floating fortress. On November 12th, 1944, the Tirpitz was attacked by 29 Lancaster's - including some from 617 Dambuster Squadron. Flying at 14,000 feet, their new Mark XIV bombsight gave them an excellent target to aim at. 'Blockbuster' bombs ripped into the ship and a 100 feet hole was ripped open. Her magazines exploded and the Tirpitz rolled over trapping over 1000 men in her as she turned turtle. A few - 80 men - managed to get to the bottom of the hull where a hole was cut through it and the men escaped. Many others were not so lucky.
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Oh please, don't even try and go there. There is not a fighter in this game that you can even remotely stand a chance against me in 1v1. I will be more than happy to show you my *snicker* mediocre skills if you like.
ack-ack
I believe I'll bet heavily on AA on this one! :rock
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Oh please, don't even try and go there. There is not a fighter in this game that you can even remotely stand a chance against me in 1v1. I will be more than happy to show you my *snicker* mediocre skills if you like.
ack-ack
Can your head fit between a normal sized door?
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Level 4 engine bombers never sank a "Moving" capital ship. Tirpitz was at
anchor when it was bombed, and it took a few trips for them to sink it still
i think they originally said no 4 engine bombers never sank a capital ship. i don't think "moving" was mentioned.
as for us doing it ingame? well, it is quite different.
first off, we get many many tries. we can go into hte training arena, and practice all night till he figure out how to hit it. i don't think the real life guys got to do that?
secondly, in real life, they had lookouts on pretty much every ship in every fleet(to the best of my knowledge). so there was never a group just steaming straight ahead when the ordinance was dropped.
in the game, very often, when a ship is sunk this way, it's due to the fact that no one is watching, and therefore, the buff drivers drop on a slow moving target, traveling in a straight line.
if it's not that, then it's the person in command of it, trying to play "cat and mouse" with the bombers....trying to wait till the last possible moment to turn, in their attempt to make the buffs miss. they all seem to forget that the ship cannot turn instantly, and they often do it too late.
for some reason, it seems that no one thinks that evasive maneuvers at first sight of the bombers is a good idea. then when the cv gets sunk, the cheating accusations generally start.
it's great, the way htc has done their best to model things so accurately in this sim/game/addiction. things like lancstukas are going to happen, because the playerbase is going to experiment in ways that the guys in real life couldn't.
this is irrelevant though.(the lankstuka thing). they do the best they can. we can't start asking them to find a way to prevent certain things.....such as those things that annoy us(and we all know one that a LOT have asked to have turned off), as something like that would snowball. it'd be like nascar. no longer a race, so much as a 200 mph traffic jam.
the most important thing here, is to take what is in here and make the best of it. they try to make things accurate.
stop comparing real life to this sim/game/addiction for anything other than the tribute to the real life guys. when ya log in, adapt. if the turrets on the wirbels are/were too fast, then adapt when attacking. now that they've slowed em down......adapt.
just come in the arenas, and have some fun.
<<S>>
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Topic says "Wirbies" and Banshee7 comes in to orally clean HT exit chamber,, ack-ack.. back to mid-war and "grab-up". Start another topic if you wanna "whine bash" ..Slower turret,, yes... tin foil turret,, yup..i personally think they should make the turret a little tuffer. Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
I'd say modeling is pretty accurate. You can't model users. Spixteen is little threat by itself.
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Can your head fit between a normal sized door?
Must be contagious:
Quote from Kazaa, May 08 2009 - "I have the ability and knowledge to fly any plane better then you could possible dream of."
:P
Wtg HTC on the UberWind. :aok
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(http://newmediachatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/231-focus-300x300.jpg)
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question.....Did the whirbel have to re load at all?
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question.....Did the whirbel have to re load at all?
Constantly. The Flakvierling is using 20 shot magazines. 16 magazines were usually carried in the turret for quick reloading, the rest were stored in the body
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So should we possibly have pauses in the firing
Oh and the il2 needs to be nerfed
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So should we possibly have pauses in the firing
Yes, but this is not an "issue" limited to the Wirbel. Unlike the rotation speed, it's more like a general game design descision - time for swapping magzines (or changing ammo type) or similar stuff is not implemented in Aces High at all. Of you would introduce it for the Wirbel, you would have to code the whole thing for all weapons. I don't see such a major change coming in the near future yet
Oh and the il2 needs to be nerfed
Why does it "need" and more important - how? You have any data about it?
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Must be contagious:
Quote from Kazaa, May 08 2009 - "I have the ability and knowledge to fly any plane better then you could possible dream of."
:P
Wtg HTC on the UberWind. :aok
Ouch!
Hypocrisy is a biatch!
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I was being honnest. :rofl
Caldera, you have too much time on your hands if you can search the BBS for a single quote. :aok It must have left a sting.
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I was being honnest. :rofl
:lol #S# sir
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<S> :lol
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<S> :lol
funny stuff.
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I was being honnest. :rofl
Caldera, you have too much time on your hands if you can search the BBS for a single quote. :aok
I didn't have to search very hard. You addressed that to me in a thread about the Rainbow 16. I remembered it and merely had to scan back through my posts to find it. Knew it would come in handy. :)
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Oh please, don't even try and go there. There is not a fighter in this game that you can even remotely stand a chance against me in 1v1. I will be more than happy to show you my *snicker* mediocre skills if you like.
ack-ack
Pretty arrogant...you've come a long way from the astronaut cherry picker you used to be in AW eh?
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Pretty arrogant...you've come a long way from the astronaut cherry picker you used to be in AW eh?
You'll find him OTD more often these days. Turning in his 38J.
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Must be contagious:
Quote from Kazaa, May 08 2009 - "I have the ability and knowledge to fly any plane better then you could possible dream of."
:P
Wtg HTC on the UberWind. :aok
:rofl :rofl :rofl bet he pleads the fifth lol
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Pretty arrogant...you've come a long way from the astronaut cherry picker you used to be in AW eh?
Weren't you CAP1 or something like that in AW that used to wing a lot with RAGS and Krieg? And let me guess, you also used to kick my arse regularly, right? LOL!
Tools like you never change.
ack-ack
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Can your head fit between a normal sized door?
Quote from Kazaa, May 08 2009 - "I have the ability and knowledge to fly any plane better then you could possible dream of."
A kill has been recorded.
ack-ack
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Weren't you CAP1 or something like that in AW that used to wing a lot with RAGS and Krieg? And let me guess, you also used to kick my arse regularly, right? LOL!
Tools like you never change.
ack-ack
I was Caps and I did fly with RAGS and Krieg quite a bit, but no, I've never really been a fan of chest thumping about my cartoon pile-it abilities. :aok
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I was Caps and I did fly with RAGS and Krieg quite a bit, but no, I've never really been a fan of chest thumping about my cartoon pile-it abilities. :aok
Your choice of wingmen pretty much tells me what kind of player you were in AW. Let me guess, Rice1 was also one of your buddies?
ack-ack
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Changing the turret speed on the wirbel brings out old AW drama?!
Awesome!
DA now! :lol
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So should we possibly have pauses in the firing
Oh and the il2 needs to be nerfed
Changes from previous release
Il-2 37mm cannons are no longer synced together.
wrongway
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Spixteen can still merge a plane doing 350 or better,,reverse and catch it within 60 seconds,, we realllyyy wanna talk modeling here?
Gee, I wonder why with all of the claims of the Spit XVI doing this not one single film has ever been taken of it doing anything remotely close to the claims?
You are both incompetent and a liar.
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Gee, I wonder why with all of the claims of the Spit XVI doing this not one single film has ever been taken of it doing anything remotely close to the claims?
You are both incompetent and a liar.
Exactly, no one has shown so far any evidence from in game that the Spitfire Mk XVI is modeled inaccurately.
ack-ack
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Are you guys calling coronado a liar? :mad:
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Are you guys calling coronado a liar? :mad:
He bluntly lied, so yes.
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He bluntly lied, so yes.
Pretty serious thing to say in most circumstances, including this one. Might be more sensible to suggest that he was simply exaggerating (at worst).
- oldman
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... after it was nerfed to the ground!
That's all.
:rofl
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Pretty serious thing to say in most circumstances, including this one. Might be more sensible to suggest that he was simply exaggerating (at worst).
- oldman
An exaggeration so extreme it no longer resembles the truth in the slightest is a blunt lie as I see it.
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
don't make me laugh. I can just see HT's desk piled high with complaint letters from "vulchers" threatening to leave game if the Wirbel doesn't get made more historically correct.
Unless you have a Flak panzer in your backyard and you can tell me it did traverse that quickly you can drop the blatant biase you have on this change.
Get yourself some vehicle supps or better fighter cap. Simples.
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Well bruv i just happen to be holding a technical manual for the Möbelwagen, Wirbelwind, Ostwind and Kugelblitz printed by the Lodz ghetto printing house 1944 and it says right here in plain english after translation that " The traverse and elevation of the turret was hydraulic, making a full elevation in little over 3.5 seconds, and a full traverse in 8.5 to 10.0 second". But i guess a technical manual dated 1944 and haveing to be translated from german to english is wrong . All this dribble about the turret being hand cranked is false. So wheres the bias?? I can back up my talk with facts can you??
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does the new wirbel meet those specs?
I'll get the stopwatch out when I get home. Thanks for the information.
the bold text is what i took issue with. The wirbel still has teeth it just can't swing around as fast!
For the record I have no problem with the wirbel before or after. Insinuating that HTC changed it due to people whining is absurd.
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Well bruv i just happen to be holding a technical manual for the Möbelwagen, Wirbelwind, Ostwind and Kugelblitz printed by the Lodz ghetto printing house 1944 and it says right here in plain english after translation that " The traverse and elevation of the turret was hydraulic, making a full elevation in little over 3.5 seconds, and a full traverse in 8.5 to 10.0 second". But i guess a technical manual dated 1944 and haveing to be translated from german to english is wrong . All this dribble about the turret being hand cranked is false. So wheres the bias?? I can back up my talk with facts can you??
while I obviously dont have your hand manual for review..... I can say that "historically accurate" is obviously being subjected by user opinion in this case...... I looked at countless sources and could not find one with a traverse rate listed...... I did however find nearly every source citing that it was a powered turret and used a handcranck as a backup .......... and I did see a few actual footage videos that show it traversing at a fairly good speed
also noted (for the fire rate whiners) the fire rate was very high and could be sustained for long periods of fire
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Well bruv i just happen to be holding a technical manual for the Möbelwagen, Wirbelwind, Ostwind and Kugelblitz printed by the Lodz ghetto printing house 1944 and it says right here in plain english after translation that " The traverse and elevation of the turret was hydraulic, making a full elevation in little over 3.5 seconds, and a full traverse in 8.5 to 10.0 second". But i guess a technical manual dated 1944 and haveing to be translated from german to english is wrong . All this dribble about the turret being hand cranked is false. So wheres the bias?? I can back up my talk with facts can you??
"The turret of the vehicle (...) was moved by the Flak and had no self drive. With the side traversing equipment of the Flak, a side traverse of 27°/s was possible. A hydraulic gear, built by DVL (...) was tested on a prototype and allowed a side traverse of 60°/s, but that gear was not used in the production vehicle"
(Detlev Terlisten: Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind (Sd.Kfz.161/4) & Ostwind. in: Nuts & Bolts Vol. 13)
The above book is the most detailed description of the Wirbelwind & Ostwind Weapon Systems I have found so far, with a plethora of pictures both from war time as well as surviving Wirbelwinds (many closeup pictures of internal mechanisms and layout)
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9539/worbel1wi5.jpg)
The gun rotation handwheel is even animated in Aces High :)
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after reviewing more sources........ still gonna say your book is wrong lusche.......... WW was indeed built with a hand crank...... as your picture clearly shows..... as all pictures show......... but it also had a drive motor place on the lower left front of the frame which drove the turret........ the handcrank was there for motor failure.....
however given that the book cited by smokey lists about a 10 second full rotation.......... and I just tested with stopwatch and our version has a 13 second rotation....... I have to say that its probably pretty accurate..... after all I doubt 3 seconds for a full rotation is going to make that big of a difference in a game
still couldnt find any sources that listed the speed....... but they do clearly show the motor and state that it was powered
some other vehicles using the PIV chasis (which is what the WW sits on) were actually fixed onto the turrets drive... although the WW is self powered....... the other variants using the PIVs turret drive I would assume would operate at its speed which is a full rotation in about 25 seconds......... which our version of PIV accurately reflects
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after reviewing more sources
Which ones?
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I love the new traverse speed. I can do this now...
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/hangarpass38.png)
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/flybywirb.png)
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/salutewirbs.png)
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..... after all I doubt 3 seconds for a full rotation is going to make that big of a difference in a game
3 seconds can be a lifetime. How fast did the old whirbel make a complete rotation?
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after reviewing more sources........ still gonna say your book is wrong lusche.......... WW was indeed built with a hand crank...... as your picture clearly shows..... as all pictures show......... but it also had a drive motor place on the lower left front of the frame which drove the turret........ the handcrank was there for motor failure.....
however given that the book cited by smokey lists about a 10 second full rotation.......... and I just tested with stopwatch and our version has a 13 second rotation....... I have to say that its probably pretty accurate..... after all I doubt 3 seconds for a full rotation is going to make that big of a difference in a game
still couldnt find any sources that listed the speed....... but they do clearly show the motor and state that it was powered
some other vehicles using the PIV chasis (which is what the WW sits on) were actually fixed onto the turrets drive... although the WW is self powered....... the other variants using the PIVs turret drive I would assume would operate at its speed which is a full rotation in about 25 seconds......... which our version of PIV accurately reflects
Interesting...... hmmm
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Interesting...... hmmm
Are you one of Batch's sources, Dadsguns?
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:noid
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I love the new traverse speed. I can do this now...
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/hangarpass38.png)
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/flybywirb.png)
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/salutewirbs.png)
A beautiful example of why SA applies in GV's too! Priceless... :rofl
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I upped a wirble today and didn't really notice that much of a difference.
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I upped a wirble today and didn't really notice that much of a difference.
Did you turn the turrent lol it's REALLY slower.
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A beautiful example of why SA applies in GV's too! Priceless... :rofl
:lol
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How fast did the old whirbel make a complete rotation?
6.5 seconds.
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6.5 seconds.
Soooo....
The upshot here is that the guy that posted from his manuals to complain about HTC, in fact proved that HTC pretty much matched what the manual said the rotation should be.......go figure. :aok
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Apparently, it used to be 6.5 seconds, it's currently 13, and it should be 10.
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after reviewing more sources........ still gonna say your book is wrong lusche.......... WW was indeed built with a hand crank...... as your picture clearly shows..... as all pictures show......... but it also had a drive motor place on the lower left front of the frame which drove the turret........ the handcrank was there for motor failure.....
The Wirbel is based on which Panzer hull?
Did the Panzer in question have a powered turret? Very probably yes.
So, why take it out of the Wirbel? Maybe a supply issue, but the only engineering reasons would be space and weight. The WW turret seems like it would be lighter and have less angular momentum issues. Space seems more of a possibility, but a big gun panzer would have space restrictions, also.
Anyway, that HTC works to this level of detail is commendable.
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It's not that they took it out, it's that it was far too fast for historical accuracy before and has been brought down to match whatever data they found...but, some argue that it's been taken down too much.
EDIT: I believe it was based on a Panzer IV-H chassis.
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So, why take it out of the Wirbel? Maybe a supply issue, but the only engineering reasons would be space and weight.
Actually the main engineering reason is resources, which where pretty scarce at that point of the war. Even the final Panzer IV variant, the Panzer IVJ (1944) got it's powered traverse removed completely! (Be glad we have the midwar variant ;) )
Wirbels were for the most part built on damaged Panzer IV chassis.
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My tech manual shows the wirblewind turret was produced by Brünn or Rheinmetall-Borsig) and installed on a Pz.Kpfw.IV chassis.
other wirble tech info.
Length 5.92m
width 2.90m
Height 2.76m
Weight 25tons
Engine Maybach HL 120 TRM 12 cylinder water cooled 11.9 l. gasoline
Crew
Commander/gunner
2 * loader
Radio operator
Driver
Armour 10 -80mm
Max speed38Km/hr
Range200km
theres alot more but i have to go to work :D
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Apparently, it used to be 6.5 seconds, it's currently 13, and it should be 10.
If this is true, then this is just to make up for the past. When HiTech feels that the Wirbles have been disabled enough by other planes/tanks, they will put it back to 10. Then, everyone will be happy like kids playing with their new favourite toys. :P
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Untill they get the game perfect for everyone, here ya go....
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/dmbear/pacifiers.jpg)
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I see a bunch are hangin' around to see where this will go....
(http://www.goletavalleydogclub.org/images/funnypics/pupsonaline.jpg)
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I see a bunch are hangin' around to see where this will go....
(http://www.goletavalleydogclub.org/images/funnypics/pupsonaline.jpg)
Shuff....which one are you?? :D
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Shuff....which one are you?? :D
This one....
(http://www.graphicsarcade.com/comments/funny/funny_comment_graphic_06.gif)
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This one....
(http://www.graphicsarcade.com/comments/funny/funny_comment_graphic_06.gif)
LOL
that looks like nkl5!!!!!
:rofl :rofl
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See Rule #4
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somebody doesnt get to the boards very often....... he said that 3 months ago
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Can only muster the blood pressure to power his e-peen every once in a while.
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jeez Louise :headscratch:
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IN with the old news to make new news today
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/ernaehrung/food-smiley-013.gif)
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
Agreed!!! Was turreted by a combined 3 shots twice yesterday.
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Disagree with arbitrarily changing values for balance. I'm sure if you took "just one" .50cal to the forehead, you wouldn't work the turret too well either.
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
Got film? I'd love to talk to someone who knows how to do this with 50 cal's.
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Since the powers that be caved to the vulch tards and pulled the teeth on the wirble, you would at least think they would make it alittle tougher. When one .50 cal round takes out the turret. However it takes multiple 20mm rounds from the wirble to take down an aluminum plane. The least they could do is make it harder to take out the turret. This is a bad change.
Do you realize what a single 50 cal round bouncing around could do?
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Funny a 4 month old argument is resurrected........never mind continue :noid
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Do you realize what a single 50 cal round bouncing around could do?
not only that, but the only way to take out the turret is attack it from above.
-
... after it was nerfed to the ground!
That's all.
You expected it to fly?
(Sorry if someone got to that before me, I didn't read past the O.P.)
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osti the only thing worth uppin now,
wirb is a junk heap now.
not sure what happened but last update makes it lagg when the trigger is pulled.
im just sayin...
froger
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not sure what happened but last update makes it lagg when the trigger is pulled
I'd bet money you run on onboard sound or an ancient sound card. You also use a custom soundpack.
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I'd bet money you run on onboard sound or an ancient sound card. You also use a custom soundpack.
:huh I run an ancient sound card and I have problems with my ping......Hmmm think I'm going to check into getting a new one.
Lambo
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A new sound card won't help your ping. It will tend help sound related stutters, which is what he's describing. His game minifreezes when the sound for the gun firing is called.
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See Rule #4
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Wirbelwind seems fine to me. :aok The lag is most likely machine or "too many guys in one place" related.
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When one .50 cal round takes out the turret.
doubtful is was just one .50 round. Since it has an open turret, a burst of well placed .50's would have likely immobilized any operators. The turret was way to fast anyway, and it is still very effective, just as in RL back in WWII....if a plane is too low, it will be toast. :aok
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osti the only thing worth uppin now,
wirb is a junk heap now.
Well, imagine that . . . The Ostwind was the upgrade from the Wirby. The game imitates life after all.
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If the turret needs to be moved faster you can augment/reduce effective traverse speed by running in 1st gear. Turn the vehicle in the direction you need. Adds in another aiming factor though, which is a little hard to get used to. But it also makes you harder to hit.
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If the turret needs to be moved faster you can augment/reduce effective traverse speed by running in 1st gear. Turn the vehicle in the direction you need. Adds in another aiming factor though, which is a little hard to get used to. But it also makes you harder to hit.
Until you run into something. :)
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Wirbelwind seems fine to me. :aok The lag is most likely machine or "too many guys in one place" related.
Especially when you sit about 3k off the runway and pop them when they come over your head :D :cheers:
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Thanks ooz,
I'LL look in to it. somewhere down the line my sound messed up and like the last 5 comps,
i shut down the o/b sound and installed a simple sound blaster.
always helped the sound out in the past. looks like i will try it on this one now.
:salute froger
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First off let me say I was considering starting a new thread :headscratch: Then decided to continue with this one as it seems to be the in the same vain on a number of points I would like to pursue. So my apologies for reserecting a thread from several years ago.
Of late just for fun I have been using the Ostwind a fair bit & it is one of the few platforms in AHII that I seem fairly competent at. The gun to me is some what like the manned soft guns at bases just not as accurate & can't reach out & touch some one like the soft manned gun can.
The one thing I think that we all can agree on is that the turret is of course very easy to disable with just a few well placed rounds. I would agree with this. :aok Since we don't have cartoon soldiers in Ostwind's & Wirbelwind's to replicate a disabled gun due to a non functioning crew. So to have the smoking turret is a fairly decent way to represent wounded & dead crewmen & a damaged gun platform.
The one thing I noticed of late is that after the gun is knocked out the Wirbel or Osti will eventually explode from enough 50 cals after a few passes from aircraft. I have also heard enough people complain over the years that 50 cals should not explode a flack Panzer on the BBS & in game while playing. So I decided to find out a little more on this issue. Can these two vehicles be destroyed by bullets alone in a real flack Panzer during WWII?
There is a few books about these platforms & one really stands out & there is a couple that have a few pages dedicated to the vehicles in question. All the books are done by reputable authors that did a lot of research & came up with the conclusions that they did. The one problem that I have is they don't all match each other on certain points. :eek: So the question is who is right? Frankly I don't know & I have no bias as to who is correct. The one document I would like to see is the German manual mentioned earlier in this thread. Reason being if this is the document presented to the crews of these vehicles I would think they are most likely to be the most accurate since your asking your troops to risk life & limb in it to fight for your country. Sadly I have not found such a document to date.
So lets start with our AHII flack Panzer's & address can these vehicles be destroyed with bullets alone.
Here is a screen shot of the turret floor of the Ostwind. This is view you wont see much while playing because you would not be looking down at all while in play.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ostdeck_zps08b8fbd9.jpg)
The Wirbel is not that different.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/wirbdeck_zpsc2a40489.jpg)
As you can see in the screen shots there is a void that extends in to the body of the tank. Now actual Ostwind information is very hard to come by there is few photos & near no surviving documents & no actual Ostwind's left after the war. So most books are a little vague about this platform & they say as such in the books.
I did find a photo of an old Ostwind turret photo & you can see it below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/post-1427-0-23872300-1346011875_thumb_zps499285ab.jpg)
As you can see a very large hole with no plate at all protecting the inside of the Panzer like in the AHII screen shot. Plus a very narrow surface area for the crew to step on when needed.
Now there is no surviving Ostwind chassis I will use photos from the only two surviving Wirbelwind's as they were supposed to be very similar in regards to the mounting of the turret to the chassis.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img115_zps4149b3a4.jpg)
Now in this picture the quad gun of the Wirbel is clamped in to place.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img116_zpsabe57c9b.jpg)
Just to give you an idea off the gun this picture from WWII shows a portable platform.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/088b805d8f1c_zps77c1ee8c.jpg)
When you look at line drawings they clearly show a very large hole around the guns.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img117_zps26cf2c66.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img118_zps9c333015.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img119_zpsa6f5b96d.jpg)
So the question is now how deep is the recess of that hole around the guns
& why would you have such huge gaps in your armour?
Answer is all the way to the bottom of the tank.
The picture in the middle shows the top of the transmission.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img120_zps3ab26b45.jpg)
Second part of the answer is here in these images.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/wirbelwind202_zpsfc354e82.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img121_zpsc474f9ac.jpg)
On the left & right near the loaders is the magazine racks as mentioned by Lusche in this thread & some how I don't think 3200 rounds will fit in those two racks. The area below the gun is clearly to store the magazines & a crewman had to be below handing the magazines to the loaders above.
In one of the books it mentions that flack panzer's were sent to ground armour units to protect them from attacking aircraft. Those same aircraft made it a point to get rid of the flacks first after they were gone the rest of the unit was meat on the table nothing really to stop them.
As seen by these photos they did try & hide them as much as possible.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/knipselw_zps30d7deb7.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/123_140_zps9b0ee9de.jpg)
So the chances are of a attacking aircraft seeing them would be slim until they were fired upon & the tracers could be seen giving away there position. At that point after they were sighted I would imagine they would drop bombs rockets & shoot with anything they had.
With all that ammunition stored below & a big hole for bullets to bounce about in and explode & start a possible fire. :headscratch: I would say yes a flack Panzer could be destroyed by a few well placed bullets.
So I think HTC has it right with the damage model on these two platforms. :aok
Enough for now more to come on other issues later.
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Keep in mind that killing the pilot in any Aces High model will cause it to immediately explode; before the days of the "spiraling to death" plane animation this was much more evident, though the explosion is still visible for some odd reason. As such, the meatbag in the driver's seat of ground vehicles is considered the pilot; this is why you could roll a Jeep into a Tiger and shoot the driver's console to destroy it. Thus, if any gunfire makes it down the holes in the turret to either hit the driver directly, explode into the driver, or ricochet into the driver, the vehicle will explode.
EDIT: 7,000th post. Party hard.
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Keep in mind that killing the pilot in any Aces High model will cause it to immediately explode; before the days of the "spiraling to death" plane animation this was much more evident, though the explosion is still visible for some odd reason. As such, the meatbag in the driver's seat of ground vehicles is considered the pilot; this is why you could roll a Jeep into a Tiger and shoot the driver's console to destroy it. Thus, if any gunfire makes it down the holes in the turret to either hit the driver directly, explode into the driver, or ricochet into the driver, the vehicle will explode.
EDIT: 7,000th post. Party hard.
In the case of the Osti & Wirbel they built a steel partition between the storage area & the driver so if the ammo was to go off the driver had a chance to survive..
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In the case of the Osti & Wirbel they built a steel partition between the storage area & the driver so if the ammo was to go off the driver had a chance to survive..
I would guess that would be little more than a morale boostee for the driver. Couple of thousand 20mm explosive shells cooking off inside a vehicle would likely turned the driver into a stain.
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I would guess that would be little more than a morale boostee for the driver. Couple of thousand 20mm explosive shells cooking off inside a vehicle would likely turned the driver into a stain.
Well it would ceratainly have made him "Stain" something! :lol
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Lazarus is that you?
-
ostwind
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ostwind3_zps590dbe38.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ostwind_zpsa1579dae.jpg)
:cheers:
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What?
Ineffective and discontinued after 100 were built? Really 100? And their slicing planes from the sky left and right, up and down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=fQMMi7sLOr4
I mean you cant even look at them, there like Medusa!
Ridiculous,
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Wish it did have a slight perk, just so people would use other types of anti aircraft.
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Wish it did have a slight perk, just so people would use other types of anti aircraft.
It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).
And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.
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It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).
And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.
If they modeled in reloading, I wouldn't complain. Would make flying the G4M1 a bit more challenging, that's for sure. :) Sure as hell wouldn't stop me from flying her, or the Ju. :aok
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It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).
And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.
It could fire all 4 at once if loaded..but then it wouldn't be firing during reloading. It certainly would not be firing hundreds/thousands of rounds at a pull. The firing, sighting, turning of the turret, and elevation all done by the gunner with 2 mechinacal wheels.
The Wirble and the Osti both carried spare barrels in the boxes next to the engine compartments, maybe there could be barrel changes implemented after a certain amount of rounds expended.
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I think that was for non-combat situations. I don't think you should force pilots of P-51s to overhaul their own engines, too, while you're at it? Reloading was a combat limitation, barrel changes? Ehhh.. not so much.
P.S. The ammo boxes contained 20 rounds only. You could fire all 4 guns but only for 20 rounds. In WW2 they didn't spray nonstop streams at planes like they do here. They also weren't so invisible as they are in here.
IMO the wirble needs a heavy perk. Then they need to introduce the 4x20mm flak halftrack. Same gun but open turret, minimal armor. Even MGs could take it out. THAT and the M16 should be unperked.. possible leave the Osty unperked as an inbetween step from the halftracks to the Wirb. Maybe?
THIS is what Aces High should have modeled instead of the wirble: The SdfKz 7.
It was THE workhorse of the German army. Over 5000 produced and saw service in every part of the war. Loaded out in many quite common variants, it carried a 37mm like the ostwind:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-2-02.png)(note those sides on the flatbed are laid flat for operational use)
It towed 88mm:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdKfz-7-zugkraftwagen-8t-towing-88mm-flak-18-02.png)
It had quad 20mm like our wirb:
(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/835/3rdReich_pzaaa_SdKfz7I1-2.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-1-01.png)
If we had the firepower with a much softer (and let's be honest, more representative) target, it would be a better tradeoff. Then the armored tank-chassis osty and wirb could be perked.
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I think that was for non-combat situations. I don't think you should force pilots of P-51s to overhaul their own engines, too, while you're at it? Reloading was a combat limitation, barrel changes? Ehhh.. not so much.
P.S. The ammo boxes contained 20 rounds only. You could fire all 4 guns but only for 20 rounds. In WW2 they didn't spray nonstop streams at planes like they do here. They also weren't so invisible as they are in here.
IMO the wirble needs a heavy perk. Then they need to introduce the 4x20mm flak halftrack. Same gun but open turret, minimal armor. Even MGs could take it out. THAT and the M16 should be unperked.. possible leave the Osty unperked as an inbetween step from the halftracks to the Wirb. Maybe?
THIS is what Aces High should have modeled instead of the wirble: The SdfKz 7.
It was THE workhorse of the German army. Over 5000 produced and saw service in every part of the war. Loaded out in many quite common variants, it carried a 37mm like the ostwind:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-2-02.png)(note those sides on the flatbed are laid flat for operational use)
It towed 88mm:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdKfz-7-zugkraftwagen-8t-towing-88mm-flak-18-02.png)
It had quad 20mm like our wirb:
(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/835/3rdReich_pzaaa_SdKfz7I1-2.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-1-01.png)
If we had the firepower with a much softer (and let's be honest, more representative) target, it would be a better tradeoff. Then the armored tank-chassis osty and wirb could be perked.
Yes!
The Osti and the Wirble came from the Mobelwagen which was also on a Panzer chassis. 240 of these were produced this would also allow the wirble and osti to have a perk price. With less than 50 osti and around 100 wirbles this would be easy to add.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Mobilwagen_zpsa39d7602.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Mobilwagen1_zps57282206.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Mobilwagen3_zpsc62d09a6.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Mobilwagen2_zpsc29909dc.jpg)
Your offer would be a whole new addition but... <don't let this go to your head> ....you are right.. with that many produced it should have been in the game long before these two :)
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Agreed 119.8%
Wirb should be perked like a Panther or Tiger I. Osti, slightly less. The M16 and German halftrack with quad 20's or 88 should be the unperked AA platforms.
:aok
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Quantity produced, armor differences, gun differences, round dispersion, rate of fire, etc. are not reasons used for perking. It's all about it's impact on the play in the game. At this time the Wirbelwind does not imbalance play in any way in the main arenas.
-Wirbelgawd
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Wirble's are east to shoot out... they are definitely not worth perking... I have upped tehm but now will take an osti before a wirb anytime....
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Next subject Wirbelwind gun sights. :headscratch:
Yes sights :confused: Wirbelwind's & Ostwind's had two sights one for ground targets & one for aircraft.
A lot of people complain about they can't hit anything with this sight in AHII. All I can say is practice a lot & if what I am about to show comes to pass we may all have to practice some more. :uhoh
First off the ground sight was called the Zielfernrohr 3x8deg Flack.
It looked like this.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Schwebekreisvisier_38_006_zps60fe842a.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Schwebekreisvisier_38_zpsb226fe74.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Schwebekreisvisier_38_005_zps0e057c5c.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/20201_zpse2079318.jpg)
It was mounted next to the sight for other anti aircraft guns a bit like this.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Visierkopf38-1_zps2c843be4.jpg)
Also after doing a bit of digging Wirbelwind's were used in the ground war as shown in this below.
So yes they were used in this role & that should end any of the doubters on that issue.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/img127_zps268973b4.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img128_zps0f2d22d4.jpg)
When the crews entered the turrets of Wirbel's & Osti's they entered through a small flap that folded down. Then they would step up from the top of the tank & over in to the turret. That same space when left open is what was used by the gunner to shoot ground targets.
Now with the Wirbel & Osti for any one who has used these in game we only have one sight. It makes sense to simplify the game as much as possible so one sight for all purposes makes sense. :aok
The AHII sight for the Wirbelwind is a square picture frame looking device when viewed while shooting. If you look at it in the film Viewer it is actually a rectangle shaped box. Just like the picture I posted above & shown a little closer below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Visierkopf38_zpsb741c063.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Flakvisier38-19Sm_zpsbb52390d.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics204_zps851904ed.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics201_zps43b039fe.jpg)
http://www.rzmilitaria.com/viewitem.php?id=10243
Only one problem with this site it was not put on the Wirbelwind. :O
When HTC slowed the rotation speed of the turret it was done with the information from this book I believe.
http://militarymodels.co.nz/2010/06/05/book-review-nuts-bolts-vol-13-flakpanzer-iv-wirbelwind-sd-kfz-1614-ostwind/
I don't have this book it was printed in 1999.
Since then they printed a new edition in 2010 that has more information & this one I do have.
http://www.michtoy.com/item-DSK-NB25-Nuts_and_Bolts_Vol._25__German_Flakpanzer_IV_Wirbelwind,_Ostwind_and_Kugelblitz.html
The sight that was put on the Wirbelwind was the Schwebekreisviser 38 not the Visierkopf 38 as shown above.
The Schwebekreisviser 38 sight looked like this.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/05751_g_zpsba68d552.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/38flack_zpsf077f466.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img125_zpsafed77d6.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img126_zpsb5301783.jpg)
The next few pictures are missing parts.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/6130303162393038_zps844e1e51.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/70201_b_zps7b7d9a82.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Linealvisier38_zps90ae23a5.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/flak_38_20_mm_00_zpsf932fc8e.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/VisieraufhangungSchwebekreisvisier_zps8444065b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/SchwebekreisvisierEyepiece_zps5160072b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Visieraufnahme-HangungSchwebekreisv_zps441bcd36.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/22wl2_zpsa01f9ad0.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/aa-sight-30-38_zps12e7682b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ring-sight_zps51ccee9f.jpg)
This link describes how it worked.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt09/german-aa-sight-30-38.html
I have looked at all the photos of Wirbels that I have that show a sight & they all show the same sight like the photo below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img129_zps5d73c9c4.jpg)
Line drawings & profiles all show the same sight.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img123_zpsbf1b6821.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img124_zps96887ae0.jpg)
Question is did HTC pick the wrong site on purpose to make it easier to use in game?
Or did they confuse the name & number of the sight due to the German language & that the square sight was used on the same flack gun on other platforms?
Remember they used the book link above to slow the turret speed down & correctly so based off of the information in hand from that book.
Here is the page listing the sights used on the Wirbelwind.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/6c9c877a-be5d-49c1-87b4-235eb28ec903_zps48454f5d.jpg)
Oh & just take note of the above page & read the part about aiming range & elevation. :headscratch:
HTC Wirbel only has +90 deg not the +100 deg listed. :bolt:
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Bring a bomb and quit whining.
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Thanks lyric, that was informative! :aok
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First off the ground sight was called the Zielfernrohr 3x8deg Flack.
Few more pictures I forgot to load earlier with the ground site.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr5b_zpsc213de8c.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr2b_zps8d80a89f.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr3b_zps8f29112e.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr4b_zps2e277c3f.jpg)
Found these two from a Czech site that says this is what the view looked like.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr6_zps85d5a06b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/obr7b_zpsebfe14b3.jpg)
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After being away for 3 years i can still get kills in a wirble pretty easy so yeah id say its still deadly, i still wont fly anywere near one too as they still slice my wings off easy enough.
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Something tells me we may get the OST/WIRB updated soon... :noid
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The AHII sight for the Wirbelwind is a square picture frame looking device when viewed while shooting. If you look at it in the film Viewer it is actually a rectangle shaped box. Just like the picture I posted above & shown a little closer below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Visierkopf38_zpsb741c063.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Flakvisier38-19Sm_zpsbb52390d.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics204_zps851904ed.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics201_zps43b039fe.jpg)
http://www.rzmilitaria.com/viewitem.php?id=10243
Another link I found with pictures of the 38/40 sight I think used on the Wirbelwind in AHII.
On one picture you can see the actual lines on the lens of the sight.
http://www.leibstandart.com/reenact/3472/39457/
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Its plenty of fun to me. Still pissing everyone off without much fuss.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/AAAfrustrationrevisedcopy.jpg)
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It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).
And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.
For those who don't know this is what Saxman is talking about.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/20mmquad_zps7f937cbc.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/20mmquad2nd_zpsf9dd9770.jpg)
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Its plenty of fun to me. Still pissing everyone off without much fuss.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/AAAfrustrationrevisedcopy.jpg)
1st Geez Lyric stop posting a book :D
2nd The wirble is JUST FINE. It is easy to disable, there are sometimes where I survive 1-2 tank hits and am like WTF I should've died. But hey, I won't complain. However, there are times I have only heard 3 pings from machine guns and gotten disabled. So it's a give and take.
However, the wirble is fine. There are quite a few ways of effectively killing a wirble. Just it isn't well known, and I am fine with that. (Considering I am a "pro" at using one :D).
Seriously though, there is nothing wrong with it, packs a punch.. relatively easy to destroy, strafe, shoot with tank, or bomb. All are easy. Although the strafing might get you killed more often than not.
So far, record is 19 kills in 1 sortie. Against rook horde of A119 :), that didn't get the base by the way!
In the end, no wirble is fine.
And is NOT PERK WORTHY, PERIOD!!!!!!
Tinkles
:salute
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1st Geez Lyric stop posting a book :D
No. :devil
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Great info Lyric! We appreciate you taking the time. :salute
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Ostwind gun sight.
This has been hard to find out about due to the fact the only known photos with the sight showing is the prototype Ostwind. The hard part has been finding out what sight it is & the same book shows line drawings on the prototype that don't match the photos? There seems to be two sights that are typically used on the 37MM flack 43 gun. The one in the photos on the Ostwind is not a match from what I can tell by the images I have collected so far.
What we have in AHII for a sight is not a match either on any of the two types that I have found for the 37MM FLACK 43 & not for the prototype as well. The Ostwind had two sights as I mentioned in this thread as did the Wirbelwind. One for ground targets & one for air contacts. The ground sight is the same as the Wirbel & you can read all that from my prior posts.
So here are the pictures of the prototype Ostwind that show the sights. If viewing the turret from the front the air sight is on the left & the ground on the right.
The prototype was put in to action on the Western front & the results were good. They then made alterations to the production models & one of those was a slight change to the exterior,front,bottom portion of the turret. They added a couple of protrusions to deflect bullets away from the top of the tank as small arms fire was causing damage to the bearing surface that the turret needed to rotate.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img134_zpsa1d03efc.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img132_zps1073d39f.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img135_zps5a84223a.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img138_zps56dcd580.jpg)
The line drawings all show the same sight on the prototype & production here are those pictures.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/d3c6c32e-94b3-4093-96a6-b27af1cea257_zps0a8d8fa1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/d69f2e85-9ce1-415b-950a-640250c99178_zps92f8225d.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/6e12d306-5cf0-4b9c-b8b0-8c68f27a8b3d_zps3a7597fd.jpg)
I first tried to find other Flack Panzer's with similar gun sights as well as flack batteries using the 37MM flack 43 gun.
This is the flack Panzer called the Mobelwagen an earlier model prior to the Wirbel & Osti.
The third & fourth photos is the same sight on a fixed 37MM flack gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img131_zpsbc69c706.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img130_zps5ba1feb7.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/8163458_zps6da7e2fc.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2970229_zps806b9214.jpg)
The above photo's shows a rather large bulky sight that had gears & switches with lead a tracking computer for air contacts & this is that same sight.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/9467651_zps9d36ec6a.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2721623_zpsa08e8abc.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4752290_zps29d2ee95.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/9365369_zps571fe05b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/derrire2xz_zps362ae3ed.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4104532_zps82722ce8.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/9851296_zps5a3b263b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/6757840_zpse242048c.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/imagesCAYAGPQW_zps8eea6092.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/5466244_zpse7ce2547.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2229750_zps4eb2799d.jpg)
This is to bulky to be the same sight as in the Ostwind photos & have ruled this out for the prototype sight.
Next I found these three pictures with the same sight as the line drawings.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37_mm_plk__vz___43_N____eskoslovensk__voj_k__1955_____21_zps256ada81.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/flaktower_zps2f750668.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-301-1957-32_Nordfrankreich_Zwillings-Flak_zpsd0f03308.jpg)
This clearly not on the Prototype Oswind photos but it is on the line drawings.
I found a web site that had some information on this gun sight that was from a captured Mobelwagen.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightfacts_zps592c9e1d.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsight_zpsa3354f65.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightfire_zps14e28674.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightinfo_zps29382693.jpg)
You look at the date & the information written on the images above this was to become the standard sight for the 37MM flack 43 gun? :headscratch:
Why would you place a primitive looking sight compared to the one with the computer on it? I don't know for sure & none of the books I have say why. For some reason the Wirbelwind & Ostwind regressed with sighting technology where the fixed gun sights for standard flack units did not seem to have this problem in obtaining the electronic sights. Was it that a rumbling tank was to harsh on a calibrated electronic computer?
I have no idea.
Did the German shortages hinder the production of those more modern sights? Your guess is as good as mine on that. Was the cost to high to place them on flack Panzers? All good questions that I don't have an answer for.
If any one can identify the Ostwind photos gun sight post it in here.
Still have other books on the way on this subject. The current book that most of this info is from is not much help on the Oswind gun sights unlike the Wirbel gun sights here is what it lists as the Ostwind sight.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/019057f4-0139-44b1-93a5-907d32f8c7a1_zpse9a958be.jpg)
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My favorite is the Chicks handling that enormous piece. I love picture books. :O
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I think that was for non-combat situations. I don't think you should force pilots of P-51s to overhaul their own engines, too, while you're at it? Reloading was a combat limitation, barrel changes? Ehhh.. not so much.
P.S. The ammo boxes contained 20 rounds only. You could fire all 4 guns but only for 20 rounds. In WW2 they didn't spray nonstop streams at planes like they do here. They also weren't so invisible as they are in here.
IMO the wirble needs a heavy perk. Then they need to introduce the 4x20mm flak halftrack. Same gun but open turret, minimal armor. Even MGs could take it out. THAT and the M16 should be unperked.. possible leave the Osty unperked as an inbetween step from the halftracks to the Wirb. Maybe?
THIS is what Aces High should have modeled instead of the wirble: The SdfKz 7.
It was THE workhorse of the German army. Over 5000 produced and saw service in every part of the war. Loaded out in many quite common variants, it carried a 37mm like the ostwind:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-2-02.png)(note those sides on the flatbed are laid flat for operational use)
It towed 88mm:
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdKfz-7-zugkraftwagen-8t-towing-88mm-flak-18-02.png)
It had quad 20mm like our wirb:
(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/835/3rdReich_pzaaa_SdKfz7I1-2.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7-half-track/sdkfz-7-1-01.png)
If we had the firepower with a much softer (and let's be honest, more representative) target, it would be a better tradeoff. Then the armored tank-chassis osty and wirb could be perked.
This is one of your arguements that I must admit makes really good sense, maybe even the most. I've heard you make it before, I hope it doesn't get overlooked and even comes standard with a Krusty-meter someday.
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Next subject Wirbelwind gun sights. :headscratch:
<snip>
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/6c9c877a-be5d-49c1-87b4-235eb28ec903_zps48454f5d.jpg)
Oh & just take note of the above page & read the part about aiming range & elevation. :headscratch:
HTC Wirbel only has +90 deg not the +100 deg listed. :bolt:
Great post(s). If I understand correctly, the AH WW only has 90 degrees elevation instead of the 110 degrees as presented (a range from -10 to +100 = 110 degree range of motion).
The Osti though you are correct, with a range from -10 to +90, that's 100 total.
I would assume HTCs modeled the sight with a missinterpretation on someone's end somewhere, given the standard they try and hold up to.
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They then made alterations to the production models & one of those was a slight change to the exterior,front,bottom portion of the turret. They added a couple of protrusions to deflect bullets away from the top of the tank as small arms fire was causing damage to the bearing surface that the turret needed to rotate.
Picture of production a Ostwind with the modification to the turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/b400f32a-e8a4-4cfd-9d8e-17ed1b2a74be_zps7e583cb6.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/c48b1f77-2f0d-4d13-80bc-5fc1b5a56a36_zpse1db7a13.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/1210636a-54c4-46c3-ab55-c36907de1b38_zps6ce5c4f2.jpg)
AHII must be the prototype Ostwind as only it had this style of turret below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img134_zpsa1d03efc.jpg)
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"we have wirbles... someone put out supplies!"
:lol
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Wirbelwind Ammunition?
I think that in AHII we only have HE rounds?
It seems based off of what was available they had a choice of a number of shells to choose from.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/f12bbefe-a029-488a-bf50-60a8d215de7e_zps408711b1.jpg)
It would be nice to have some AP as well to deal with some of the ground vehicles that run out to meet you in game. I have not found what type of load out options were typical for the Wirbelwind & none of the books say much about that. Since they did use them in the ground roll a fair bit I think they would change over to an AP load if needed.
Seems they did have some success in real life as well.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img148_zpsb64a0f56.jpg)
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It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).
And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.
Quick video of an approximate time of changing out a magazine.
In combat I would think it may be a little faster than what is done here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ugZhqz4AQUk&NR=1
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Quick video of an approximate time of changing out a magazine.
In combat I would think it may be a little faster than what is done here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ugZhqz4AQUk&NR=1
showing that the barrels were changed out during battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEItGE0SqCE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEItGE0SqCE)
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Leave the wirble in peace. Nerfed the derned things still beat my IL2 and Ju87-G2 70% of the time no matter how I shoot at them.
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Ostwind ammunition?
Unfortunately not a lot of info on the types loaded & no glossy picture like the Wirbel ammo in my other post.
How ever there is a difference on what amount is loaded & what the few books I have say about quantity.
AHII Ostwind has 1000 rounds & I assume they are all HE.
Panzer tracts#12 lists 400 rounds.
http://www.librarything.com/work/3186142
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img149_zpsf16e2e69.jpg)
Nuts & bolts volume 25 lists 400 rounds also.
http://www.michtoy.com/item-DSK-NB25-Nuts_and_Bolts_Vol._25__German_Flakpanzer_IV_Wirbelwind,_Ostwind_and_Kugelblitz.html
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img136_zps9a2ebaf7.jpg)
Why the big variation between AHII & these two books I have no idea.
Even the captured Mobelwagen documentation lists 400 rounds & this early version of this flack has the same chassis & the same gun as the Ostwind.
With one difference this lists 80 AP rounds as well as 320 HE rounds,this makes sense that they carried AP since this early flack gun was used in ground warfare as well as aircraft like the Wirbel & Ostwind.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightfacts_zps592c9e1d.jpg)
I would say we are carrying to much ammo on the AHII Ostwind & most likely should have AP rounds as well.
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THey mention the ground ammo in this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=tcI0kuARYSk&feature=fvwp
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40mm AP but less total ammo? I'd take it.
the ostwind would see a boost in usage despite having less ammo, just for those situations where you expect a mix of nmy planes and gvs
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40mm AP but less total ammo? I'd take it.
the ostwind would see a boost in usage despite having less ammo, just for those situations where you expect a mix of nmy planes and gvs
I would love a mixed ostwind loadout, HE heavy idealy, go backup town destruction missions with some AAA protection.
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Turret rotation speed?
Saved this one for last but in fact it was the first thing I started looking in to with the Wirbel & Osti.
This has been the biggest gripe I hear all the time while in game & on the BBS from time to time.
HTC neutered the Wirbel. :mad:
So was it right or wrong the slowing down of the rotation speed? First off as I stated in this thread that I have hijacked :o that I believe HTC slowed down the turret due to the information in this book.
http://militarymodels.co.nz/2010/06/05/book-review-nuts-bolts-vol-13-flakpanzer-iv-wirbelwind-sd-kfz-1614-ostwind/
I have the later edition Vol25.
So lets see what it says on this topic.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img150_zps4461d50a.jpg)
OK so what is the 2 CM Flakvierling mentioned above?
It is of course a broad description of the 20MM gun used on Flak guns. The quad gun mount is the one in Wirbel & this is the Flackvierling 38 described in the Wiki link & picture below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/df4b1907-ea12-46a5-8cee-8b4fb50417dd_zpsf13a1ad5.jpg)
In this internal view of one of the only two surviving Wirbelwind's left it shows & describes the two controls that move the gun & turret about.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img151_zps982d7ba1.jpg)
A little more about the traverse from nuts & bolts Vol 25.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img152_zps74e8feeb.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img153_zps724b8455.jpg)
So who is Count von Seherr-Thoss mentioned above?
He was the technical director of Ostbau-Sagan which actually built the vehicles. A man I would say that would most likely would know without question about his tanks.
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/nb13.htm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img154_zps981adda9.jpg)
So no auto rotation that can give you 360 degrees in 6 seconds. They had to hand crank it at about at 13.3333 seconds per 360 degrees. :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
Or did they?
Dug a little deeper & found this book on line.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/113790510/1982-Gepard-The-History-of-German-Anti-Aircraft-Tanks
Bottom of page #93 & on to page #94.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/de46b015-549c-4878-9399-8f72132b18ba_zpse9c79b43.jpg)
There is also a few other comments about drive mechanisms throughout the Wirbel & Ostwind information of this book.
This book is a game changer if correct it implies that later they added the automatic drive.
So what book is correct?
Will let the debate begin & post my thoughts & findings later.
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Just about anything you want to know about the gun used in the Wirbelwind.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/104636119/TME9-228-2cm-Flakvierling-38-German-20mm-Antiaircraft-Gun-Four-Barreled-Mount-1943
I thought that this platform may have had two speeds for traversing low & a high gear & it did this document shows how they changed gears. Some very detailed drawings & explanations of the functioning of the weapon.
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Just got two kills in one. No more whipping that turret around. :lol :lol
I've flown by those things at 400 mph only have them track me. I think its a great change!
They can still track you if the person in them knows what they're doing (READ: Waystin2 never stops moving and uses the steering to help his turret move quicker. He will kill you at all speeds)
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I have noticed that the auto-ack at fields appear to be the same quad mount as the Wirbel, but in a ground mounting. Those guns do not seem to have a traverse issue, but it would be interesting to see what their traverse rate is.
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I have noticed that the auto-ack at fields appear to be the same quad mount as the Wirbel, but in a ground mounting. Those guns do not seem to have a traverse issue, but it would be interesting to see what their traverse rate is.
Never thought of that. :headscratch:
Wonder how you could check that 360 degree turning rate time on the auto acks?
They do seem to spin faster than the rate in that link I posted.
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I think you can use the offline arena tools to destroy all the guns except one, and then fly over it to check the traverse speed. The film viewer shot setup routines should allow you to place the camera so it is looking straight down on the gun, and from there you can time/calculate the traverse.
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Tested it offline. In the film viewer the guns do not rotate, but the quads firing pattern in the air indicates an instantaneous transition.
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I have noticed that the auto-ack at fields appear to be the same quad mount as the Wirbel, but in a ground mounting. Those guns do not seem to have a traverse issue, but it would be interesting to see what their traverse rate is.
Well, I know they have no problem tracking my arse :cry
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Tirpitz?
The Tirpitz wasnt moving.
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The Tirpitz wasnt moving.
Prince of Wales.
The Japanese twin engined bombers that dropped bombs on her were used no differently than a four engined bomber would have been.
Of course, the bombs didn't sink her, the torpedoes did.
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Thought I would come back to revisit this thread with some new information I found on the Wirbel & Ostwind firing distances.
Seems that AHII German Flack Panzers are neutered compared to the data on these charts I found.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/wirbel_zps8hfubjsj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/wirbel_zps8hfubjsj.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Ostwind_zpsl4nxpu3k.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Ostwind_zpsl4nxpu3k.jpg.html)
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The manned 37mm and the auto 20mm both seem to fire the full range. The mobile versions Hitech looks to have made the decision to cut that range in half. Probably a concession to game play.
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The manned 37mm and the auto 20mm both seem to fire the full range. The mobile versions Hitech looks to have made the decision to cut that range in half. Probably a concession to game play.
It would seem strange to me that HTC would ignore data & just decide to randomly come up with something else. I have not seen that kind of Behaviour in the years I have played.
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Why in the world you you need a BETTER Wirb? I can almost understand the Ost.. I can never hit anything with it. Then again, I don't care because I'm not a big <Flak> Pansy. :grin:
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The manned 37mm and the auto 20mm both seem to fire the full range. The mobile versions Hitech looks to have made the decision to cut that range in half. Probably a concession to game play.
It's a good concession considering the changes they made to the BENEFIT of the Wirble. IIRC, it was impossible to sustain fire from all four guns until you ran out of ammo because it was magazine-fed, and those magazines were hand-loaded. The only way to get a constant stream of fire was to only fire one pair of guns at a time, so the loader could swap out the magazines of the pair that wasn't currently firing. If the gunner fired all four guns at once he'd have to pause so they could be reloaded.
That's not a problem at all for our Wirble, which is a quad-barreled hose of death.
Why in the world you you need a BETTER Wirb? I can almost understand the Ost.. I can never hit anything with it. Then again, I don't care because I'm not a big <Flak> Pansy. :grin:
The Wirble can have its historical range if HTC implements the reload limitation above.
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And gives it the gunsight it was originally shipped with. Both osti and wribel. Then the player would need a key press equivalent to the target's speed knob to move the primary ring in and out from your eyepiece. That was the biggest weakness with this aiming system. Gunners ended up eyeballing it using the tracers because someone had to guess the speed of the target before moving the ring.
Schwebekreisvisier 30/38
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt09/pics/aa-sight-30-38.jpg)
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt09/pics/ring-sight.jpg)
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/39462/480677.jpg)
But I guess as a game play concession Hitech gave us the less commonly used Flakvisier 35.
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/39462/589153.jpg)
For direct fire that little telescope mounted next to the Schwebekreisvisier had this reticle pattern.
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/39462/589160.jpg)
As for the Flakviseir 35 which Hitech mounted to the osti and Wirbel. Here is why I added range marks to the AH3 reticle: Analog correction controlled reticle.
The Visier 35 is a projection type sight. It uses a light bulb to illuminate an image onto the sights glass image plate. When you look into the visor you see a illuminated sighting image. The gun sights accuracy is controlled by the Correction Box located on the port side of the gun. Sight & Correction Box are connected by a horizontal tube running starboard to port, linkages & connecting rods are connected to the elevation linkages controlling azimuth.
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/39462/589157.jpg)
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/39462/589158.jpg)
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IIRC all guns 30 mm and under have a set range before the bullet magically evaporates....
This causes the wirb and the Mk103 30mm to not fire out to historic ranges,all guns over 30 mm usually fire very close to historic ranges.
It may be a timed thing for the 30mm and under,I honestly dont remember whether it's distance or time that determines the range.
I bet Mr Lusche could remind me and likely explain it better,complete with charts..... :devil
:salute
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yeah we need more hiders in wirbles.
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LOL
that looks like nkl5!!!!!
==<--O--O-->==
:rofl :rofl
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It's a good concession considering the changes they made to the BENEFIT of the Wirble. IIRC, it was impossible to sustain fire from all four guns until you ran out of ammo because it was magazine-fed, and those magazines were hand-loaded. The only way to get a constant stream of fire was to only fire one pair of guns at a time, so the loader could swap out the magazines of the pair that wasn't currently firing. If the gunner fired all four guns at once he'd have to pause so they could be reloaded.
That's not a problem at all for our Wirble, which is a quad-barreled hose of death.
The Wirble can have its historical range if HTC implements the reload limitation above.
The magazines really could be changed out fast though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ugZhqz4AQUk&NR=1
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And gives it the gunsight it was originally shipped with. Both osti and wribel.
The dilemma with the Ostwind is what we have in game was the prototype they sent to the front. All others afterwards had different sights as well as different turrets.
Never have figured out what the AAA scope is on the prototype Ostwind :headscratch:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4ff2241f-ce08-421c-b9bc-8c244ddfced8_zpsik6y1ui1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4ff2241f-ce08-421c-b9bc-8c244ddfced8_zpsik6y1ui1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ebd307e7-ba20-4df5-9543-c3c2ed983f0c_zpsyge69yjt.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ebd307e7-ba20-4df5-9543-c3c2ed983f0c_zpsyge69yjt.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/a1412ee1-1659-42ec-8017-8b016797ed58_zpsa38abhqh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/a1412ee1-1659-42ec-8017-8b016797ed58_zpsa38abhqh.jpg.html)
Cleaner view from one of the above photos. Plus what the production model sight looked like.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/h2_zpsdp10xll0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/h2_zpsdp10xll0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmFlakzwilling43mitSchwebedornvisier_zpsuh12kpmg.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmFlakzwilling43mitSchwebedornvisier_zpsuh12kpmg.jpg.html)
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It's for direct fire at ground objects. That is why the rifle style sight's reticle looks like a tank reticle. I also posted two versions of the original sight with the hanging pendulum. The optical sight we have required a complicated additional analog controller setup for it. The earlier sight had an external small iron sight nib so the gunner could quickly acquire the target. His spotter had only moments to guess the target's speed and slide the lead ring to that place on it's speed track. Then the gunner opened fire using the lead oval for a general setup and refocused past to his tracer's path finishing from there. Seems the director in the aiming process always depended on a second person inputting their best guess at target speed. Either with the manual early ring sight system or later with the analog director controlled optical systems.
Morf,
The MK108 is following Hitech's imposed game trajectory in the K4 and 152. He is angling the tube through the engine up slightly at 125 then boldly up on out to 650. Surprisingly he has given the round an impression of left hand spin drift visa the dispersion modeling. It should be a right hand drift. I've tested many fighters at 400 and noticed the dispersion code function seems to impart a bit of left hand bias to the pattern if you go offline and setup for 10x ammo. Then hold down the trigger for awhile.
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It's for direct fire at ground objects. That is why the rifle style sight's reticle looks like a tank reticle. I also posted two versions of the original sight with the hanging pendulum. The optical sight we have required a complicated additional analog controller setup for it. The earlier sight had an external small iron sight nib so the gunner could quickly acquire the target. His spotter had only moments to guess the target's speed and slide the lead ring to that place on it's speed track. Then the gunner opened fire using the lead oval for a general setup and refocused past to his tracer's path finishing from there. Seems the director in the aiming process always depended on a second person inputting their best guess at target speed. Either with the manual early ring sight system or later with the analog director controlled optical systems.
Morf,
The MK108 is following Hitech's imposed game trajectory in the K4 and 152. He is angling the tube through the engine up slightly at 125 then boldly up on out to 650. Surprisingly he has given the round an impression of left hand spin drift visa the dispersion modeling. It should be a right hand drift. I've tested many fighters at 400 and noticed the dispersion code function seems to impart a bit of left hand bias to the pattern if you go offline and setup for 10x ammo. Then hold down the trigger for awhile.
The ground fire sight is there as well.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/h2%20A_zpszmnzu8ks.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/h2%20A_zpszmnzu8ks.jpg.html)
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I think that is a range finder.
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I think that is a range finder.
Range & speed finder was always this dude on the back I believe when it came to AAA.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/mobelwagen-02_zps5477114a.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/mobelwagen-02_zps5477114a.png.html)
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The 20mm antiaircraft guns of the SS panzer regiment 12 shot down 23 allied aircraft during 10-3 august 1944.
German 12th SS panzer division lost very few tanks to fighter bombers during that time, they damaged some to be repaired though. They lost a number of trucks though.
Artillery damaged quite a few tanks, most could be repaired. The terrain made tanks very hard to spot from the aircraft.
source "Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy"
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Bottom of this page is an interesting question more than answer. A page about the Flak 37.
http://www.materielsterrestres39-45.fr/fr/index.php/defense-contre-avions/153-defense-contre-avions-allemagne/520-3-7-cm-flak-37
When you look at osti models you see the same tube Flakvisier. I cannot find references for it.
Yet something more to mull over.
http://www.cartula.ro/forum/topic/5396-flakpanzer-ostwind/page__st__240
See the attachment rail for the direct fire tube.....Flakvisier 40.
(http://www.cartula.ro/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=83970)
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Bottom of this page is an interesting question more than answer. A page about the Flak 37.
http://www.materielsterrestres39-45.fr/fr/index.php/defense-contre-avions/153-defense-contre-avions-allemagne/520-3-7-cm-flak-37
When you look at osti models you see the same tube Flakvisier. I cannot find references for it.
Yet something more to mull over.
http://www.cartula.ro/forum/topic/5396-flakpanzer-ostwind/page__st__240
See the attachment rail for the direct fire tube.....Flakvisier 40.
(http://www.cartula.ro/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=83970)
That one is in this thread page #11.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/derrire2xz_zps362ae3ed.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/derrire2xz_zps362ae3ed.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/8163458_zps6da7e2fc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/8163458_zps6da7e2fc.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4104532_zps82722ce8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/4104532_zps82722ce8.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/9851296_zps5a3b263b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/9851296_zps5a3b263b.jpg.html)
Problem is it's not it. You can tell by the photo below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/a1412ee1-1659-42ec-8017-8b016797ed58_zpsa38abhqh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/a1412ee1-1659-42ec-8017-8b016797ed58_zpsa38abhqh.jpg.html)
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Giving us the analog controller would almost be giving us a lead computing sight for the osti and wirbel. Making us use the earlier pendulum versions would have players raising their default view up over the sight and aiming with the tracers only. The 35 vizier with only my adding range markers to the reticle is a mid ground compromise between using a reticle and players aiming solely with the tracers. The wider you make your custom FoV, the smaller and less bright the tracers become unless you goto zoom.
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Giving us the analog controller would almost be giving us a lead computing sight for the osti and wirbel. Making us use the earlier pendulum versions would have players raising their default view up over the sight and aiming with the tracers only. The 35 vizier with only my adding range markers to the reticle is a mid ground compromise between using a reticle and players aiming solely with the tracers. The wider you make your custom FoV, the smaller and less bright the tracers become unless you goto zoom.
Actually you have it backwards. The analog sights came out on the Mobelwagon's & some of the earlier flack Panzers the problem was they vibrated to death on the rough terrain & were essentially useless on tracked vehicles. The pendulum versions used on the Wirbelwind & Ostwind proved to the most reliable and were the type used till wars end.
Mobelwagon.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img131_zpsbc69c706.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img131_zpsbc69c706.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img130_zps5ba1feb7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img130_zps5ba1feb7.jpg.html)
Ostwind.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsight_zpsa3354f65.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsight_zpsa3354f65.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightfire_zps14e28674.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/37mmsightfire_zps14e28674.jpg.html)
Wirbelwind.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/aa-sight-30-38_zps12e7682b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/aa-sight-30-38_zps12e7682b.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ring-sight_zps51ccee9f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/ring-sight_zps51ccee9f.jpg.html)
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Hey, I had a choice, 5 years chasing down aircraft gunsights and reticles for my historic pack, or 5 years chasing down german vehicles. I like airplanes. The bits I read about the german analog controlled vizier impressed me that eventually really good gunners probably had a good range man and a good range dial twiddler man. The US NAVY produced the MK14 gyro controlled gunsight which was very accurate especially against kamikaze. The range operator had a better range controller system which he was also the dial twiddler. That removed the third guy. If there was no range control operator, the MK14 had it's own range control input for the gunner.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Ordnance/GS-Mk14/index.html
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damn fact checking dweebs are annoying. why can you just point and pull the trigger like the rest of us.
semp
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damn fact checking dweebs are annoying. why can you just point and pull the trigger like the rest of us.
semp
Just like the idea of hitting 6K bombers in an Ostwind that's all.
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Just like the idea of hitting 6K bombers in an Ostwind that's all.
:aok snicker
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Seeing toys like this really get me excited. A compromise between fun and accuracy would need to be found.
If the sight is calibrated automatically by the CPU, the accuracy would be overpowered.
If the sight was calibrated automatically by the CPU, but reduced in accuracy, it would be frustrating for the user.
If the sight was calibrated manually it would add more buttons to press (more depth to gameplay but less "stream lined").