Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CptTrips on October 17, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
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Let's say, for arguments sake, Hitech signaled he wasn't against the idea if I felt like doing it. Let's say, for arguments sake, I felt like jumping back into the meat-grinder for 6-8 months. :O Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena? Would anyone ever fly in it? For those who have tried WWI: Western Front, would there be any desire for a WWII version along those lines?
WW1WF gets a little traffic, but not much. I suspect that is largely because most players aren't that in to WWI. Or was there something else about it that wasn't fun? Or is it because the AI environment is not fun? Is the basic idea of AI-Augmented side arena a dead-end?
In WW1WF, I only had 2 aircraft per country to work with and no bombs or bombers. I think a WWII arena would have a lot more variety of targets and action. I guess I'd like to get a sense of the community. I'm not expecting to compete with the Melee, but I don't want to waste our time either. Would we be? Now would be a good time to learn that. ;)
Basically, what I was thinking was a 256x map divided in to multiple zone for various Early/Mid War matchups. This is a fantasy terrain meant to be evocative of those areas of combat, but not actual realistic representations.
Dividing the map left to right, every to the left of middle is Early War and everything to the right is Mid War. Dividing the map upper and lower half, everything in the upper half is European, everything in the lower half is CBI/Pacific.
Permanent, overlapping perpetual AI scheduled missions (just like WW1WF) being run with the appropriate planes in each AO. Fighter sweeps, bombers with escorts and interception. Jabo raids. etc.
I don't care if a player flies all the way over to an incongruent AO. If that floats their boat, fine. The AO are just defining what the AI will respect. The goal would be to provide the players a buffet they could move around in and sample various era-AO-specific plane match-ups they don't often get to enjoy in the Melee.
Below is a sloppy mock-up to help you visualize what I'm thinking:
Thoughts?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/scd18x9uiaaay45/WWIIAI_Design2.png?raw=1)
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We were just discussing something like this last night on the radio. How we like the FSO and Scenarios so much that it would be cool to have an arena that was more mission focused like they are. Not having to go searching for a fight but to know a fight will show up eventually and not degrade into an avoid the ack to get the con thing or have 3 different attacks going on at 3 different places with varying numbers to each attack that we might end up getting one base.
I've never used the WW1WF just because I am not into WW1 plane sets so that's why I am not fully understanding the AI part about it, but if it turns out to be something like a running scenario split into those different areas then I know an entire squad that would fly there. Having era plane match ups would be awesome too. I like the early/mid war planes but if you take up and early era plane in the MA then ur toast in about 5 minutes against the speed demon planes. Taking up era planes and not being able to take the risks we take in the MA because of those later plane sets makes for a better experience to me but that's just me.
Great idea :salute
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CptTrip - so what you're proposing is a large map - each divided by certain plane sets where we have staged missions running on a continuous basis?
Can you go through what a typical sector would look like?
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CptTrip - so what you're proposing is a large map - each divided by certain plane sets where we have staged missions running on a continuous basis?
Can you go through what a typical sector would look like?
Snugar, Mister Fork,
Sorry. I kinda wrote that up from a prospective of asking someone who had tried WW1WF, if they would be interested in a WWII version. If you haven't tried WW1WF I should provide more detail.
The user experience would be sort of a hybrid between Melee/Mission Arena/Scenario. The AI would be running min-scenarios on each AO using the mission system. But you interact with the arena more like the Melee in that you can spawn where and when you want and just take off and interact with AI. So no waiting around for a mission to start like in the Mission Arena. It is a two-sided Axis v Allied matchup.
You would be limited to the appropriate aircraft for the era and AO at each field, but it is up to you when and were to spawn and take off and go look for trouble. And AI never run for their ack. If you enter their activation range, they will attack and fight you to the death. (Well not bombers. ;))
Example....
Lets say I get tired of chasing runners in the Melee, but instead of just logging for the night I decide to go play in WWII: 1940-1943 a bit.
I enter the arena an say.."Hmmmm let's see...I feel like some Mid-War Us v Japan Pacific action. I pan over to that side of of the map and examine the radar. Hundreds of aircraft are in flight and fighting all across the map. All day, all night. 24/7. Holidays too. AI never rest.
Then I see the AI system post a message in the text buffer:
"[Allied Command] Alert! Coast watchers have spotted a large Japanese force heading toward our port P46. 20+ aircraft. Angels 15. ETA 5 min. Request all available fighters to defend."
Ohh that sounds fun. I can spawn at A123 right near there. In the hangar I scroll through what planes are available for US mid-war...OK, I'll take a P-38J. I take-off and and spot a flight of four F4U-1 AI already heading in that direction to intercept the attack. I decide to follow them in. We catch the attackers right outside the port and engage, but some of the diver bombers slip though and hit the docks. We eventually mop them up.
Next I launch again from the same base in a F6F-5 and head out over the water. I run across a 4 v 4 AI fight already in progress. F4U-1 vs Zeros. I dive in and get shot down. Drat.
Enough fun and sun. Next I go over to the Finland area and join in some AI fighter sweeps and fights I-16 vs Brewsters.
Or maybe I go to the BoB and fly 109 escort for AI HE-111 bombers hitting London.
Etc, etc.
The AI are running constant missions fighting themselves even when you are not around. You can launch anytime, in any AO, with the appropriate aircraft and join in the on-going action.
:salute
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Sounds interesting....
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CptTrip - so what you're proposing is a large map - each divided by certain plane sets where we have staged missions running on a continuous basis?
To answer your question more directly....sorta. ;)
- 256x256 mile map divided into separate era-AO.
- Each AO limited to era-region specific planesets.
- AI are running staged mission on a continual 24/7 basis.
- You can free-spawn and join in at any point on an ad hoc basis.
:salute
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Ah gotcha, thanks for the clarification on how it would run CptTrips. So an AI war all the time with the ability to join either side and help out the AI in the constant battle. Still sounds fun. So I would not know whether I am up against an AI or a real pilot on the other side correct?
Very interesting.
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It would be interesting to know how successful the average players are in the Western Front arena.
I think a WW2 AI arena is a good idea for a volunteer project.
I wonder if AI arenas by HTC, on the pay side, would give new players a better experience than the MA and be more popular.
Most of the games I've seen with the sort on training missions and yellow overlays discussed recently also have different levels of difficulty. The MA is always set on EXTREME. It's a tough start.
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Ah gotcha, thanks for the clarification on how it would run CptTrips. So an AI war all the time with the ability to join either side and help out the AI in the constant battle. Still sounds fun. So I would not know whether I am up against an AI or a real pilot on the other side correct?
Very interesting.
Exactly. Well, you might be able to tell if it's a human if it breaks and runs for it's ack protection. :t
If I do it right, it should really feel you spawned in an arena full of players. Taking off. Landing. On patrol. Attacking targets. Dog-fighting furballs. It should have the feeling of an on-going organic environment that was fighting a war when you walked in and will be continuing after you leave. It is amazing too how much emergent behavior you get.
As opposed to a single, sterile set piece mission in an otherwise empty world you'll get running a single mission offline or Mission Arena.
Even if you don't like WWI stuff, I'd recomend giving WW1WF 30 min of your time to get a glimpse of what I'm talking about. Of course I had very very little to work with in the WWI plane-set.
:salute
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Exactly. Well, you might be able to tell if it's a human if it breaks and runs for it's ack protection.
I'll do what I do now, let them fly around low in the ack and find something else to do ;)
I'm still working up to average ;) but I will jump into WW1WF tonight to get a better idea of the AI stuff.
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It would be interesting to know how successful the average players are in the Western Front arena.
I'll occasionally pop my head in if I see someone on there and see who it is. If I don't recognize the name, I'll check their stats.
A lot appear to be non-subscribers. Which I consider a good thing. Kinda what I intended.
A lot of people, maybe especially young players, may be too intimidated to go into the Melee. An F2P AI arena gives them somewhere to go where they can actually do something. However, getting shot down by AI doesn't have the same embarrassment factor as getting dominated by a human. So maybe that is a good place for people to build up their confidence to the point where they eventually what to give the Melee a try.
:salute
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interesting
I want to see ai bomber missions in main arena be nice to intercept
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I would love to see something like this take shape. I would be awesome to fly my lumbering B17s around with a huge AI formation. The big thing that sells me on this arena is the exactly what CptTrips says "the AI never rest". As much as I would like to see these AO's in their own servers for the sake of consolidating numbers I could get behind it. The chat might get really crazy but that would be small price to pay for such an arena. If it were free to play that would be a great way to draw in new players. I can say from personal experience there is nothing more frustrating for a new player they flying for 5 minutes to get to a fight only to get shwacked by a P51 diving from no ware. A arena like this would give a much more PVE experience.
On a side note: CaptTrips how feasible would something like this be to make (assuming that hightech gave it the go ahead.)?
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On a side note: CaptTrips how feasible would something like this be to make (assuming that hightech gave it the go ahead.)?
It will certainly be a ton of work, but I don't know of any special problems. We know the AI-Augmented arena concept works now.
Hitech already gave me all the tools I think I need during WW1WF development. And I think we found and he fixed all bugs in the system that would block me. I don't even think it would really take any of Hitech's valuable time at this point. I think I have everything I need, other than eventually him configuring a test server for when I get to the point of building schedules, and flipping in visible when I'm ready to go live. I think he would describe those as fairly trivial tasks.
Which is why after all the work and learning we did for WW1WF, it would seem a shame to me not to complete the book-ends and do the WWII arena to complete the set. ;)
Other than that, I just would need to sit for 6 months and grind it out. :D
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This would be awesome! yes please :aok
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Let's say, for arguments sake, Hitech signaled he wasn't against the idea if I felt like doing it. Let's say, for arguments sake, I felt like jumping back into the meat-grinder for 6-8 months. :O Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena? Would anyone ever fly in it? For those who have tried WWI: Western Front, would there be any desire for a WWII version along those lines?
WW1WF gets a little traffic, but not much. I suspect that is largely because most players aren't that in to WWI. Or was there something else about it that wasn't fun? Or is it because the AI environment is not fun? Is the basic idea of AI-Augmented side arena a dead-end?
In WW1WF, I only had 2 aircraft per country to work with and no bombs or bombers. I think a WWII arena would have a lot more variety of targets and action. I guess I'd like to get a sense of the community. I'm not expecting to compete with the Melee, but I don't want to waste our time either. Would we be? Now would be a good time to learn that. ;)
Basically, what I was thinking was a 256x map divided in to multiple zone for various Early/Mid War matchups. This is a fantasy terrain meant to be evocative of those areas of combat, but not actual realistic representations.
Dividing the map left to right, every to the left of middle is Early War and everything to the right is Mid War. Dividing the map upper and lower half, everything in the upper half is European, everything in the lower half is CBI/Pacific.
Permanent, overlapping perpetual AI scheduled missions (just like WW1WF) being run with the appropriate planes in each AO. Fighter sweeps, bombers with escorts and interception. Jabo raids. etc.
I don't care if a player flies all the way over to an incongruent AO. If that floats their boat, fine. The AO are just defining what the AI will respect. The goal would be to provide the players a buffet they could move around in and sample various era-AO-specific plane match-ups they don't often get to enjoy in the Melee.
Below is a sloppy mock-up to help you visualize what I'm thinking:
Thoughts?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/scd18x9uiaaay45/WWIIAI_Design2.png?raw=1)
HELL YES! I would fly this sort of arena! Its like a "Il2 quick mission" with drones. It would serve as a valuable practice tool!
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The chat might get really crazy but that would be small price to pay for such an arena
Heh. Good point. And you gave me an idea.
I might have the AI Fighter Command for each AO transmitting on a different text buffer channel for alerts and orders.
I'll have a arena message popup when you enter giving general instruction including what channels each Fighter Command is using.
I could also have room on the clipboard map to put them in a legend block.
:salute
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Ok CptTrips I went into WWIWF and yeah I had a ball in there. I was going to spend 10 - 20 minutes in there and stayed an hour. I like the way the map legend at the top clarifies what to do and where to go. The AI was interesting, got dizzy a few times they turn so fast and so much lol. Last sortie I had one fly up on my 6 and chop off my horiz stab after I shot his buddy down, I actually laughed at that one. 3 sorties maybe 5 kills but was a good time in planes I didn't think I would like or really know how to fly well. All down by 14 since I wanted to see the most difficult and yes the AI will splat right into your prop if you are in a bad position.
Seeing an arena like that in something I know how to fly better like WWII plane sets would be a ton of fun. I use the MA for practice and minor edits to my convergence and gunsites and other things for FSO or scenarios so a better place to do that would be in an arena like the WWIWF. Plus when numbers get low in the MA then it would be a nice place to go for some organized missions.
Great job :salute
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Ok CptTrips I went into WWIWF and yeah I had a ball in there. I was going to spend 10 - 20 minutes in there and stayed an hour.
Thanks for taking the time Snugar! I wasn't so much trying to convert you to WWI, but it is definitely the most efficient way to give you a tiny glimpse of what a WWII AI-Augmented arena might be like.
And keep in mind, I had almost NOTHING to work with in WWI. One AO, two planes per country, no bombs, no bombers, very little variety to work with. So if I was able to make that even mildly entertaining, it really makes me want to go try a WWII version. With the embarrassment of riches I'd have to work with in a WWII arena, I think I could blow the doors off it. Maybe someday Hitech will give me ship and tank AI and then I can RULEZ ZEE VORLD! :D
Yeah, A14 is CrazyTown. Not really realistic in any way, but good for a chuckle. The WWI AI use to all fly like that. I was about to give up on the idea until Hitech gave me the parameters to tweak the AI ability so I could tone it down. That made the project doable. And it gave me the idea to graduate the AI across the front which justified having all the bases instead of just one or two. Yeah the higher level AI will just run you down and crawl up your six until they chop off your rudder. :rofl And all AI with shamelessly HO and ram you without a second thought. :rofl
A3-A4 is more my speed. I can get in a good 2v1 fight and it is a stalemate and we just dogfight for 10 minutes straight unless one crashes or another AI jumps in. Good practice.
Thanks for giving me your thoughts.
:salute
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Oh it was entertaining for sure. :cheers:
AI will just run you down and crawl up your six until they chop off your rudder.
I'm still laughing about that when I read it again.
I tried to avoid the HO and last second moved but the AI got a piece of my wing. I was thinking this guy isn't gonna move, but with 2 wings I was still able to fly around and get another kill. Had a blast in there and gave me an idea of what you were talking about through experience.
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The AI in WWI is pretty slick. I like the fact that as you move south, the AI get better at fighting. It gives a new person a place to start and move up as they get better. I think a WWII arena like that would be amazing. It would also help new folks get their feet wet.
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The AI in WWI is pretty slick. I like the fact that as you move south, the AI get better at fighting. It gives a new person a place to start and move up as they get better. I think a WWII arena like that would be amazing. It would also help new folks get their feet wet.
That brings up an interesting point.
I had originally tried to think how to do something similar, but because I am dividing by AO, it would be hard to further divide by difficultly within an AO field by field.
Right now I'm thinking of doing it slightly differently. Basically I am scaling difficulty based on the experience. So everything EW would be slightly easier than everything MW by fact that all participants have been gaining combat experience over those years.
Within EW and MW I would divide by country. For instance EW Germans had first mover advantage and gained vital combat skills in Spain before the war. Where as US and Russian pilots would still be very green. Etc.
(Not intending to insult anyone) here is what difficulty scaling I would suggest:
EW (slightly easier)
==============
Russian (easiest)
Finland
US
British
Japanese
German (toughest)
MW (slightly harder)
==============
Italian (easiest)
Russian
British
Japanese
US
German (toughest)
(Note: if this arena had included LW, German and Japanese would decline due to attrition of experience pilots. US and Russia would rise due to increasing experienced pilots. )
Thoughts?
:salute
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Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena? Would anyone ever fly in it?
The first time I played Air Warrior against other online players was the end of my interest in playing against AI.
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I like the idea of it being by experience. Kind of keeps it historical which is cool.
Maybe an order like below, or however it accurately happened. I'd have to hit the books to get the proper orders but you get the idea.
EW:
Russian (easiest)
US
Finland
Japanese
British
German (toughest)
MW:
Italian (easiest)
Russian
US
Japanese
British
German (toughest)
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The first time I played Air Warrior against other online players was the end of my interest in playing against AI.
It's not just AI though, it could also be other live players combined with the AI. That's that part that interests me the most. Low numbers in MA or the big chase around the field to intercept, ok jump over to WWII and oh 10 live players here cool. Up a plane and now there is a 5v5 somewhere or however the numbers will be played out. For me it is more about flying like I do in FSO or scenario, rather than the oh 1 guy in his ack doing doughnuts might as well go try and get him nothing else going on. Great ack engined me rtb. If they hide in ack there cool I'll get his 4 friends, haha maybe, well at least a few and rtb while he hides in the ack.
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Maybe an order like below, or however it accurately happened. I'd have to hit the books to get the proper orders but you get the idea.
Your order seems pretty reasonable to me. I just threw mine out as a strawman to start the conversation. My knowledge of WWII is mainly informed by John Wayne movies. :D
:salute
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:rofl
I'm sure a couple are out of order but just bouncing around ideas really. But I do like the direction its headed.
:salute
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The WW1 arena is impressive. But fighting the AI becomes a dull routine, even when flying inferior aircraft. It can be great for gunnery practice, much better than the static circle flying in AH offline mode.
An early war WW2 arena would be great for me since the P-40C I prefer to fly would be more than effective enough to beat the AI.
But, the purpose of paying the monthly fee for AH is to fly against the real people, who are far better or in some cases far worse than the AI. That is one reason why traffic is so low besides the low interest in a limited WW1 plane set versus an awesome WW2 plane set.
A WW2 arena would double as a great training arena for newbies, especially if they were teamed up with some veterans. Just a matter of making it good enough to draw a crowd to make it fun.
But the reality is, AH is falling down the same hole as Warbirds with an ever shrinking membership. Unless you just really enjoy the challenge whether anyone appreciated it or not, I don't think it is worth your time.
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[...]
It can be great for gunnery practice, much better than the static circle flying in AH offline mode.
An early war WW2 arena would be great for me [...]
[...]
A WW2 arena would double as a great training arena for newbies, especially if they were teamed up with some veterans.
[...]
I don't think it is worth your time.
:noid Got it. Thanks. ;)
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Go for it wabbit!
Let's stop listening to the negative and start changing the narrative
Good Vibes, run with it
TC
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Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena?
For me... no. I don't pay $15 a month to kill AI, just like in IRACING wouldn't pay to racing AI.
CAVALRY
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For me... no. I don't pay $15 a month to kill AI, just like in IRACING wouldn't pay to racing AI.
CAVALRY
No worries. But just to clarify though, like WW1WF, I assumes Hitech would be placing this in the F2P area, so you aren't paying for either.
:salute
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His point isn't about the cost, just that the majority of players come here to fight people. There are much better venues for flying against AI. Even with free access, how many people are playing in free arenas? In the old days when AH was $30 per month, the main arena was pretty full, and free HTH arenas were available, there were at most 20 or 30 regulars and maybe only at most 10 or 15 flying at any one time.
But I still like the AI arena. With player numbers so low and some nights just being no fun for me despite the number of players, I can go take off in a Camel or Dr.I and do some furballin'.
And as I said before, if you make a WW2 arena, I will surely enjoy buzzing around in a P-40C in a way that isn't possible most nights in the MA.
But 6 months of work for something that is only going to be used by a very small handful of people even with free access isn't a very good tradeoff unless you will enjoy the effort and results even if it is hardly ever used.
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His point isn't about the cost, just that the majority of players come here to fight people. There are much better venues for flying against AI. Even with free access, how many people are playing in free arenas? In the old days when AH was $30 per month, the main arena was pretty full, and free HTH arenas were available, there were at most 20 or 30 regulars and maybe only at most 10 or 15 flying at any one time.
But I still like the AI arena. With player numbers so low and some nights just being no fun for me despite the number of players, I can go take off in a Camel or Dr.I and do some furballin'.
And as I said before, if you make a WW2 arena, I will surely enjoy buzzing around in a P-40C in a way that isn't possible most nights in the MA.
But 6 months of work for something that is only going to be used by a very small handful of people even with free access isn't a very good tradeoff unless you will enjoy the effort and results even if it is hardly ever used.
Correction..... most people that come here and leave do not want to fight real people. They just want to be unbeatable or be able to use a code or buy themselves better than others.
They leave because they are not scary good in 3 minutes.
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His point isn't about the cost, just that the majority of players come here to fight people.
It's my fault. I didn't really frame the question properly. I'm really not interested in the people who want to stop by and declare they will never give it a try. OK. I'm just taking it for granted that will be the majority of players. Therefore that view is not particularly useful to me. What I really need to know is, is there a minimal number of people who would. If there are a sufficient number of those, then it is worth it to me and those who refuse to try it, can go suit themselves.
And I probably wasn't clear about my goal. When I was ribbing you on the incongruities in you last answer, I should have made it clear, those minor benefits you listed that you felt were insufficient to justify my effort, are actually most of the goals I'm trying to achieve.
If it provides you a cool place to get some target practice that is available on demand to you 24/7, that is a win in my book.
If it provides a place for you to toy around with some plane matchups you don't often get the chance to enjoy, that is a win in my book.
If it provides new/young players a place to play around in something that sorta feels like a full multiplayer arena and helps them build their skills and confidence, , that is a win in my book.
Basically what I found funny in your post is that you were telling me you thought it would be a success, at least in the terms I would measure it in.
I'm not trying to change AH. I'm not trying to compete with the Melee. I don't expect this to bring 700 players back to Ah. I don't expect large numbers of players to fill this arena or spend large amounts of time in there.
My goals are very limited. I just wanted to provide an extra fun toy to be available when people are feeling bored or want to get some quick practice, or want to play around with some plane matchup they may only get to fly every couple of years in a scenario. When all the stars align, nothing beats player vs player action. But if the Melee is empty or the map sucks or the side are hopelessly unbalanced, or your tired of chasing people to ack, or if you want to fly some early war, I just want to provide one more option for you to have fun in Aces High rather than logging off completely and going to watch TV.
And yeah, AI does get tedious eventually. I'm not expecting that it won't. Then you'l go do something else. Cool. I expect a majority of players will turn their nose up at it. Cool. I don't need everyone to be open to it, just a few. ;)
Hitech ran a starts report for me for WW1WF. It was pretty interesting. Days varied, but on a good day it might get 10 unique users scattered though out the day. They might fly 3-4 sorties and then leave. A certain percentage of the come back again and again. So, with it's imperfections, they must be enjoying it enough to return. They are not all in there at once. That is the beauty of AI available 24/7. They pop in when ever they want at various times and get a few sorties in and then leave. A lot of them appear to be non-subscribers, I hope youngsters. Maybe some of them will eventually catch the bug and want to become long term customers.
Given how under popular WWI is and how limited I could make the experience with the WWI plane-set, I think the numbers were not too bad. I think I would do better with a WWII.
:salute
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why do people keep trying to add new arena's? barely have 150 in melee on a good night,-I have no idea if WWII-pacific is still going-WWI-western front is empty 99.99% of the time. like right sunday oct 20 1:14 pm central no one in either WWI arena.
last thing we need is another arena.
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I logged on last night and was planning of flying awhile. I logged off after 45 minutes because of one person constantly complaining.
People not there to play the game should be booted. Constant naggers are a detriment to the game.
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last thing we need is another arena.
Oh, that’s it. It’s on like Donkey Kong!
I’m going to do it for now for no other reason than looney doesn’t want me to.
All I needed was one good excuse. :)
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Oh, that’s it. It’s on like Donkey Kong!
I’m going to do it for now other reason than looney doesn’t want me to.
All I needed was one good excuse. :)
:rofl
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Gor for it Trips! It sounds like a good idea to me. :cheers:
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If it is any consolation, add an early/mid WW2 arena just for me :) I would use it, as I have already used the WW1 arena you made.
Dogfighting AI gets boring, but continually getting clubbed by late war monsters is worse. I have had some nights where my poor little P-40C was getting trounced by Me262s. Of course, I have had a few nights where I have killed Spitfire MkXIVs with my crappy little P-40C, too. The problem is most nights, I waste my time grabbing alt and transiting to the fight only to get killed within seconds due to being outnumbered by superior aircraft who are also already at higher energy states.
I miss the days when the crowds were large enough to support early and mid war arenas. There were never very many people in the early war arenas, but the fights were usually pretty good, like the many nights I spent in free HTH back in 2001-2002 when I couldn't afford to subscribe. I love flying Axis vs Allied with early war aircraft. Spit I vs Bf109E, P-40C vs Oscar/A6M2, etc. But it is rare that I can have any fun with those aircraft in the MA.
Aces High has two key strikes against it that are killing business compared to other WW2 air combat options:
1) Crappy graphics (on a relative scale, other games look way better, pretty much photo real aircraft and nearly photo real terrain at this point).
2) Extremely lethal to anyone who hasn't played regularly for years. Most of the players that remain are average or far better and will smoke anyone new to this level of realism/lethality.
Beyond that, I am willing to bet that most people who play the other online WW2 air combat games simply don't know that Aces High exists or how it is superior to most other WW2 air combat games once you get over the steep learning curve fighting against veteran players.
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I think the thing that a good use of AI would do for a new player checking out the game is to give him that shot of dopamine or whatever that comes from shooting down another airplane that is fighting back, something hard to get in an MA full of long time player concentrate, vulching, take off and climb out time. I think maybe a really simple arena called "TARGET PRACTICE" (maybe even add "new player start here") with a simplified clipboard that says "pick plane" instead of hanger and then 4 buttons that say "Difficulty 1 Launch" "Difficulty 2 Launch" .....etc. Have unlimited ammo and a map that when closed has a tab showing that says "Map" Basically throw out or hide all of the other choices and complexity of interface. Air spawn, no fence of death, a place to land and take off if you land there. Persistent AI without aircombat bombers, 4 levels of skill, ideally number of AI modulates to number of players. NO STALL PROTECTOR, SAME FLIGHT MODEL. Add another launch button that says "Intercept Bombers" that airspawns the player in front of a 15 plane bomber stream.
The existing matchplay could be improved if a player could use the 1v1 2v2 etc. to launch themselves against an AI, if they could pick the plane. Maybe the buttons could be "YOU vs SPITFIRE 8" etc.
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Just to clarify: Would the propsed arena be strictly human vs AI (or as they say PVE)? Or would it be a battleground where AI battles AI and humans could join in on either side?
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Just to clarify: Would the propsed arena be strictly human vs AI (or as they say PVE)? Or would it be a battleground where AI battles AI and humans could join in on either side?
More the later.
AI v AI. AI vs human. Human vs Human. But even when no one is there, the AI are happily fighting each other all day, all night, forever. Like Valhalla. ;)
:salute
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Well, I think its certainly something worth a shot! As others have said before - the lack of action and things to shoot at (with a fair chance of surviving the encounter) is something that is draining the lifeblood out of Aces High.
Count me in!
Litjan
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Well, I think its certainly something worth a shot! As others have said before - the lack of action and things to shoot at (with a fair chance of surviving the encounter) is something that is draining the lifeblood out of Aces High.
Count me in!
Litjan
Counted! :D
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:salute CptTrips - dare I ask anything further on this? :aok
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:salute CptTrips - dare I ask anything further on this? :aok
Well, let me back up to first principals a second.
The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player.
* At the time, offline missions were mostly broken.
* Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run. It was just too much friction.
* The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start. You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes. Often way less than that. And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run. The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long. A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight. The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead. Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player. It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.
So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction. There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow. The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee. They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action. It is a workflow they already have memorized. :D
So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System Hitech was doing. I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.
While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena. It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it. The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.
When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming. At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete. Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort. I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.
So currently I'm not working on it. I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work. I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.
:salute
[Edit] I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena. That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific. Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it. ;)
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:aok My opinion is.....its up to you? :uhoh I like the idea and would love to see it...then again I am not the one putting in the time and effort. It would be "CHANGE" and we all know how that is perceived :old: I am still of the opinion that, constant run AI missions in Melee would give Off Time players something to target if they wished :uhoh Not the best thing, but a supplement. Too me, it would be similar to the "AI Trains and Convoys" that ran in AH2. Some folk loved killing them and others didnt, but when they werent in AH3 a whole lot of folk noticed their absence and wanted them put back in :rofl I appreciate all the effort you have put in for the WW1 arena! I dont fly in it all that much, but it was a PLUS. Thank you :salute
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Well, let me back up to first principals a second.
The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player.
* At the time, offline missions were mostly broken.
* Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run. It was just too much friction.
* The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start. You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes. Often way less than that. And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run. The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long. A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight. The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead. Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player. It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.
So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction. There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow. The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee. They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action. It is a workflow they already have memorized. :D
So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System Hitech was doing. I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.
While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena. It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it. The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.
When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming. At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete. Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort. I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.
So currently I'm not working on it. I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work. I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.
:salute
[Edit] I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena. That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific. Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it. ;)
In any case your time is much appreciated. I have not been in the WWI arena in a bit. Of course I have not been flying that much. I do really enjoy the WWI arena when I go there... and as I have stated before, I am not even a big WWI era guy.
Excellent work and again Thank You!! <S>
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I appreciate all the effort you have put in for the WW1 arena!
You're welcome.
I guess it's sorta the old Pareto principle. I think you can get about 80% of the benefit of an AI arena with offline missions at 20% of the effort.
You get a little bit more of an organic feel with an arena. You are not quite sure how the missions are currently interacting when you spawn. You definitely see some unforeseen emergent behaviors.
I guess you also have the opportunity to meet friends in there and wing against AI in an arena. Major420 and I would wing up and work our way down the front until the AI got too hard. That was fun.
I haven't totally discarded the idea, it is just on hold now pending a justification. In the mean time I can make offline missions.
LoL. You know discussing augmenting the Melee with any AI is the third rail of Aces High. Don't touch it!!!
Your right though. It is just a logical extension of field ack, and convoys, and trains, etc. I used to love to attack trains. Finding one was a nice little bonus like finding that $10 bill in your jeans pocket doing laundry! Bonus!
I did make an initial suggest to explore the capabilities of Melee AI augmentation. https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398917.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398917.0.html)
In limited and controlled applications, I think it could add amusements without harming the game. Maybe a little AI area on a map where there is always AI having a little war. If things are slow you could go over and hassle with them without leaving the arena. One of the magic things about the AI is they could be air spawning off in an area away from bases so this doesn't need to interfere with the base capture win-the-war logic. Just a little isolated zone of AI activity you could fly over to.
I dunno. Stuff like that is at least worth thinking about.
:salute
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In any case your time is much appreciated.
:salute
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Well, let me back up to first principals a second.
The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player.
* At the time, offline missions were mostly broken.
* Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run. It was just too much friction.
* The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start. You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes. Often way less than that. And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run. The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long. A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight. The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead. Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player. It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.
So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction. There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow. The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee. They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action. It is a workflow they already have memorized. :D
So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System Hitech was doing. I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.
While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena. It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it. The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.
When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming. At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete. Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort. I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.
So currently I'm not working on it. I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work. I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.
:salute
[Edit] I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena. That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific. Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it. ;)
thank you sir and for all you've done. I agree the new offline missions are much better and you can very quickly start again which is great. I quite understand and its your time but if you were ever bored :neener: i reckon it would go down a storm.
i think the plus with an arena like WWI is that you can take of, land kills, re-arm re-fuel etc and be back in the fight as opposed to just suddenly being in the air at 250mph, gives you all round practice. Again, thanks :aok
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i think the plus with an arena like WWI is that you can take of, land kills, re-arm re-fuel etc and be back in the fight as opposed to just suddenly being in the air at 250mph, gives you all round practice.
I totally agree. An AI augmented arena really does provide a more naturalistic experience for a player. It probably would be a good way for a new player to get exposure to an environment a lot like the Melee, but in a more forgiving controlled manner.
Though Offline Missions have their advantages too. So like most complex things in life there are trade-offs to be considered.
The idea isn't abandoned. I still have a labeled folder of notes and ideas for the arena sitting on my desk. It's just on pause at the moment until I can figure how I can best provide the maximum benefit to the community per unit of effort. I'm still evaluating that equation. ;)
:salute
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re: figthing AI - i have a sneaking suspicion that playing things like WoT, WoW or Warthunder - you do play again AI you just don't know it ;)
As for the idea, great stuff.
Couple suggestions if I may:
1. make it separate arenas. For clarity sake. List when entering should be clear for anyone
- 1944 Western Front (100 aircraft )
- 1942 Eastern Front ( 150 aircraft )
etc
2. AH gui is not most user friendly of them all. Using comms presents biggest challenge for many i think. Radio channels for this arena should be easily visible and understandable - don't use channels 2,3,4 6 etc. Rather 141 and so on.
3. Otto - AI gunner. No buts about it. But if i'm not mistaken there is one in offline play.... finetuning it might be a bit of a challenge.
Can i help you in anyway ? Can coad a little...
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re: figthing AI - i have a sneaking suspicion that playing things like WoT, WoW or Warthunder - you do play again AI you just don't know it ;)
Heh. That would be funny.
Couple suggestions if I may:
1. make it separate arenas. For clarity sake. List when entering should be clear for anyone
- 1944 Western Front (100 aircraft )
- 1942 Eastern Front ( 150 aircraft )
etc
I had originally thought of going this way, but for a couple of reasons Hitech would have wanted it all in one arena. I agree with his reasons. it had advantages. It also presented some challenges to make a custom terrset that could cover textures from the South Pacific to the Finnish winter. :rofl
However, for a couple of reasons, I think now I will just concentrate mostly on Offline Missions.
Rumor has it that WO:P might eventually support missions, so I'm working on some content towards that. (Bonus, they can be used in AH as well. )
I got some simple missions I want to do that are more micro-scenario based rather than just 4x4 furball. Pacific War based.
I'll do those while I wait on some some technical enhancements that might come someday, then I'll work on a related series of more detailed, larger scale missions that cover the Solomon Islands Campaign. Like a pseudo career progression/story line.
Can i help you in anyway ? Can coad a little...
Thanks for the offer. You know, if you have a technical bent, and a moderate pain tolerance, you should delve into building some Offline Missions of your own.
I'd love to see the community re-build an active cadre of mission designers. There are still some rough edges, but I there is huge untapped potential for this capability. I'd love to see as active a mission designer community again as there are skinners and terrain builders.
<S>