WWII: 1940-1943 (Request for Comment)

[1stpar3]

Let's say, for arguments sake, Hitech signaled he wasn't against the idea if I felt like doing it.  Let's say, for arguments sake, I felt like jumping back into the meat-grinder for 6-8 months.    Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena?  Would anyone ever fly in it?  For those who have tried WWI: Western Front, would there be any desire for a WWII version along those lines?

WW1WF gets a little traffic, but not much.  I suspect that is largely because most players aren't that in to WWI.  Or was there something else about it that wasn't fun?  Or is it because the AI environment is not fun?  Is the basic idea of AI-Augmented side arena a dead-end? 

In WW1WF, I only had 2 aircraft per country to work with and no bombs or bombers.  I think a WWII arena would have a lot more variety of targets and action.  I guess I'd like to get a sense of the community.  I'm not expecting to compete with the Melee, but I don't want to waste our time either.   Would we be?  Now would be a good time to learn that. 




Basically, what I was thinking was a 256x map divided in to multiple zone for various Early/Mid War matchups.  This is a fantasy terrain meant to be evocative of those areas of combat, but not actual realistic representations.

Dividing the map left to right, every to the left of middle is Early War and everything to the right is Mid War.  Dividing the map upper and lower half, everything in the upper half is European, everything in the lower half is CBI/Pacific.

Permanent, overlapping perpetual AI scheduled missions (just like WW1WF) being run with the appropriate planes in each AO.  Fighter sweeps, bombers with escorts and interception.  Jabo raids.  etc. 

I don't care if a player flies all the way over to an incongruent AO.  If that floats their boat, fine.  The AO are just defining what the AI will respect.  The goal would be to provide the players a buffet they could move around in and sample various era-AO-specific plane match-ups they don't often get to enjoy in the Melee.

Below is a sloppy mock-up to help you visualize what I'm thinking:

Thoughts? 

(Image removed from quote.)

HELL YES! I would fly this sort of arena! Its like a "Il2 quick mission" with drones. It would serve as a valuable practice tool!

[CptTrips]

The chat might get really crazy but that would be small price to pay for such an arena

Heh.  Good point.  And you gave me an idea.

I might have the AI Fighter Command for each AO transmitting on a different text buffer channel for alerts and orders.

I'll have a arena message popup when you enter giving general instruction including what channels each Fighter Command is using. 

I could also have room on the clipboard map to put them in a legend block.

[snugar109]

Ok CptTrips I went into WWIWF and yeah I had a ball in there. I was going to spend 10 - 20 minutes in there and stayed an hour. I like the way the map legend at the top clarifies what to do and where to go. The AI was interesting, got dizzy a few times they turn so fast and so much lol. Last sortie I had one fly up on my 6 and chop off my horiz stab after I shot his buddy down, I actually laughed at that one. 3 sorties maybe 5 kills but was a good time in planes I didn't think I would like or really know how to fly well. All down by 14 since I wanted to see the most difficult and yes the AI will splat right into your prop if you are in a bad position.

Seeing an arena like that in something I know how to fly better like WWII plane sets would be a ton of fun. I use the MA for practice and minor edits to my convergence and gunsites and other things for FSO or scenarios so a better place to do that would be in an arena like the WWIWF. Plus when numbers get low in the MA then it would be a nice place to go for some organized missions.

Great job 

[CptTrips]

Ok CptTrips I went into WWIWF and yeah I had a ball in there. I was going to spend 10 - 20 minutes in there and stayed an hour.

Thanks for taking the time Snugar!  I wasn't so much trying to convert you to WWI, but it is definitely the most efficient way to give you a tiny glimpse of what a WWII AI-Augmented arena might be like.

And keep in mind, I had almost NOTHING to work with in WWI.  One AO, two planes per country, no bombs, no bombers, very little variety to work with.  So if I was able to make that even mildly entertaining, it really makes me want to go try a WWII version.  With the embarrassment of riches I'd have to work with in a WWII arena, I think I could blow the doors off it.  Maybe someday Hitech will give me ship and tank AI and then I can RULEZ ZEE VORLD! 

Yeah, A14 is CrazyTown.  Not really realistic in any way, but good for a chuckle.  The WWI AI use to all fly like that.   I was about to give up on the idea until Hitech gave me the parameters to tweak the AI ability so I could tone it down.  That made the project doable.  And it gave me the idea to graduate the AI across the front which justified having all the bases instead of just one or two.  Yeah the higher level AI will just run you down and crawl up your six until they chop off your rudder.     And all AI with shamelessly HO and ram you without a second thought. 

A3-A4 is more my speed.  I can get in a good 2v1 fight and it is a stalemate and we just dogfight for 10 minutes straight unless one crashes or another AI jumps in.  Good practice.


Thanks for giving me your thoughts.


 

[snugar109]

Oh it was entertaining for sure. 

AI will just run you down and crawl up your six until they chop off your rudder.

I'm still laughing about that when I read it again.

I tried to avoid the HO and last second moved but the AI got a piece of my wing. I was thinking this guy isn't gonna move, but with 2 wings I was still able to fly around and get another kill. Had a blast in there and gave me an idea of what you were talking about through experience.

[Shuffler]

The AI in WWI is pretty slick. I like the fact that as you move south, the AI get better at fighting. It gives a new person a place to start and move up as they get better. I think a WWII arena like that would be amazing. It would also help new folks get their feet wet.

[CptTrips]

The AI in WWI is pretty slick. I like the fact that as you move south, the AI get better at fighting. It gives a new person a place to start and move up as they get better. I think a WWII arena like that would be amazing. It would also help new folks get their feet wet.

That brings up an interesting point.

I had originally tried to think how to do something similar, but because I am dividing by AO, it would be hard to further divide by difficultly within an AO field by field.

Right now I'm thinking of doing it slightly differently.  Basically I am scaling difficulty based on the experience.  So everything EW would be slightly easier than everything MW by fact that all participants have been gaining combat experience over those years.

Within EW and MW I would divide by country.  For instance EW Germans had first mover advantage and gained vital combat skills in Spain before the war.  Where as US and Russian pilots would still be very green. Etc.

(Not intending to insult anyone) here is what difficulty scaling I would suggest:



EW (slightly easier)
==============
Russian (easiest)
Finland
US
British
Japanese
German  (toughest)


MW (slightly harder)
==============
Italian (easiest)
Russian
British
Japanese
US
German (toughest)


(Note: if this arena had included LW, German and Japanese would decline due to attrition of experience pilots. US and Russia would rise due to increasing experienced pilots. )



Thoughts?

[popeye]

Would there be any real interest in another AI-Augmented WWII arena?  Would anyone ever fly in it? 

The first time I played Air Warrior against other online players was the end of my interest in playing against AI.

[snugar109]

I like the idea of it being by experience. Kind of keeps it historical which is cool.
Maybe an order like below, or however it accurately happened. I'd have to hit the books to get the proper orders but you get the idea.

EW:
Russian (easiest)
US
Finland
Japanese
British
German  (toughest)

MW:
Italian (easiest)
Russian
US
Japanese
British
German (toughest)

[snugar109]

The first time I played Air Warrior against other online players was the end of my interest in playing against AI.

It's not just AI though, it could also be other live players combined with the AI. That's that part that interests me the most. Low numbers in MA or the big chase around the field to intercept, ok jump over to WWII and oh 10 live players here cool. Up a plane and now there is a 5v5 somewhere or however the numbers will be played out. For me it is more about flying like I do in FSO or scenario, rather than the oh 1 guy in his ack doing doughnuts might as well go try and get him nothing else going on. Great ack engined me rtb. If they hide in ack there cool I'll get his 4 friends, haha maybe, well at least a few and rtb while he hides in the ack.

[CptTrips]

Maybe an order like below, or however it accurately happened. I'd have to hit the books to get the proper orders but you get the idea.

Your order seems pretty reasonable to me.  I just threw mine out as a strawman to start the conversation.  My knowledge of WWII is mainly informed by John Wayne movies.   

[snugar109]

 

I'm sure a couple are out of order but just bouncing around ideas really. But I do like the direction its headed.

 

[streakeagle]

The WW1 arena is impressive. But fighting the AI becomes a dull routine, even when flying inferior aircraft. It can be great for gunnery practice, much better than the static circle flying in AH offline mode.

An early war WW2 arena would be great for me since the P-40C I prefer to fly would be more than effective enough to beat the AI.

But, the purpose of paying the monthly fee for AH is to fly against the real people, who are far better or in some cases far worse than the AI. That is one reason why traffic is so low besides the low interest in a limited WW1 plane set versus an awesome WW2 plane set.

A WW2 arena would double as a great training arena for newbies, especially if they were teamed up with some veterans. Just a matter of making it good enough to draw a crowd to make it fun.

But the reality is, AH is falling down the same hole as Warbirds with an ever shrinking membership. Unless you just really enjoy the challenge whether anyone appreciated it or not, I don't think it is worth your time.

[CptTrips]

[...]
It can be great for gunnery practice, much better than the static circle flying in AH offline mode.

An early war WW2 arena would be great for me [...]

[...]

A WW2 arena would double as a great training arena for newbies, especially if they were teamed up with some veterans.

[...]

I don't think it is worth your time.

   Got it.  Thanks. 

[TequilaChaser]

Go for it wabbit!

Let's stop listening to the negative and start changing the narrative

Good Vibes, run with it

TC