Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BaronVonDeath on November 04, 2018, 08:49:31 AM
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The T34-85 is WAYYYYY over modeled and needs a perk upgrade!! It's like when the c hog ruled the sky, the T34-85 only costs 1 perk most of the time!!!! WTF.
It's WAYYYY to powerful and damage resistant. Every one drives them and "most" of the time, you can't kill it with one shot, unless I'm in it, I die with 1 shot hits 95% of the time. The T34-85 should be at minimum equal to or more then the Jagpanther. It should start at 25 perks a least.
HTC please review the K/D data and rework the over modeled T34-85. Thanks my rant is over. :)
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The T34-85 is WAYYYYY over modeled
Do you have solid engineering data to back up this claim?
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I believe it already has a coffee pot.
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the T34-85 is not over modeled, I drove it 98% of the time. it's probably you're gunnery, and the way you attack other tanks
and 25 perks is way too high, maybe 5 perks at the most. and depending on Eny even the PantherG isn't even perked that high.
this is my list of kills in tanks for October--T34-85 187 kills-PantherG 74 kills-Panzer4H 41 kills-Tiger1 17 kills-Tiger2 22 kills total kills 487 total deaths 243...and I didn't even get to finish the tour(video card died). but I don't gv entirely because I fly fighters and bombers as well, so others will have a lot more kills and deaths then I. and there is no real defense for campers unless you can see their shot before you die.
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Do you have solid engineering data to back up this claim?
Agree. Facts are a great way to productively advance the discussion.
I believe it already has a coffee pot.
:rofl
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Maybe the 1-2 perk cost is too low, but 25 is obnoxious. 5 or so would be sufficient. Current there's no reason to take, say a Firefly over it.
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:old: I think this page or post or conversation will be moved to the wish list- it sounds more like a wish.
-1 for raising T34-85 perk points at least to 25 anyway.
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:old: I think this page or post or conversation will be moved to the wish list- it sounds more like a wish.
-1 for raising T34-85 perk points at least to 25 anyway.
It is in the wish list with one response.
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Maybe the 1-2 perk cost is too low, but 25 is obnoxious. 5 or so would be sufficient. Current there's no reason to take, say a Firefly over it.
the only reason to use a firefly is for the 17PDR gun-from cover it's to slow to be of use in an open field, the firefly was modified from the M4 to use the 17PDR against the Panzers-the speed went from 24-25 mph to 20-22 mph.
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It is in the wish list with one response.
sorry my friend I didn't see it
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I'm starting to have AH3 withdrawals. :D
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I'm starting to have AH3 withdrawals. :D
Take 2 WWII documentaries and call us in the morning :aok
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I'm starting to have AH3 withdrawals. :D
I have a suggestion of what you can do with your time. I know I would appreciate it.
Check out the "Help and Training" thread for my suggestion.
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,395151.0.html
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I'm starting to have AH3 withdrawals. :D
I went over a year when Hurricane Harvey messed up my life for a while.
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All great replies from gv guys who like the 85. Why up a tiger when she dies one hit all the time from 85, why up jagdpanther when she dies with one hit from 85, should I go on? the gun is to powerful for 1 perk and the armour takes multiple hits in all locations on it ridiculously. I only suggested 25 (would love to see it) but any increase deemed appropriate should be applied.
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An M8 can kill a tiger if the person using it knows what they are doing. the 37mm is way too OP, it needs perked too!!! :old:
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This is not about what gun CAN do to another tank once in a while - it´s about what one gun can do to a tank REGULARLY.
I have no hard data or the expert knowledge to claim that the T34 is not modeled correctly, it may be just a very good tank.
But my subjective asessment from playing Aces High is that it is the most wildly used tank in Aces High - and that is most likely not due to it´s charming name or lovely shape or because the skins available for it are so cool - it is because it regularly and reliably outperforms all other tanks. It therefore needs to get hit with the perk and or eny hammer. And hard.
P.S: (Looking at it´s gun and armor performance is also warranted, in my opionion. I would not at ALL be surprised if they found a bug with that modeling).
Cheers, Jan
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I can destroy a T34.... simply let me drive it.
:aok
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I think it less to do with the T-34/85 being over modeled then the fact that most of the terrains in AH3 are suited for the characteristic of the T34. The T34 is fast and has a gun capable of killing most anything frontally shy of a T2 at 1200yds, the distance in which most combats take place. The other tanks Panzer 4, Tigers, Sherman 76, fireflys, and Jagd's are much better killing at long distance, but due to the fact that AH3 GV warfare is hide and seek tree hugging nonsense I don't see much use for them. Back in AH2 with the more open terrains, the GV action was much more diverse.
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Image: tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com
The T-34 is a Soviet medium tank that had a profound and lasting effect on the field of tank design. At its introduction, the T-34 possessed an unprecedented combination of firepower, mobility, protection and ruggedness.
dispite the info listed above, the T34 had 44,900 losses in WWII so it was killable in WWII-the gun 76.2 (3in) wasn't even the biggest.M4's 75mm and 76mm--panzer 75mm-Panther76.2, but could have sworn the in game panther was an 88mm--the Tiger1 and Tiger2 had 88mm guns. like I said earlier there is no reason to bump the t34's eny, esp to 25 that's ridiculous. if it is a higher perk then 5eny should be enough and its operators need more training or practice :D
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What was the ratio of 75mm vs 85 mm variants built?
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What was the ratio of 75mm vs 85 mm variants built?
sorry Atlau, I don't know how to figure that
but there were more T34's destroyed in WWII than M4's
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sorry Atlau, I don't know how to figure that
but there were more T34's destroyed in WWII than M4's
Kursk alone saw many killed.
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I think it less to do with the T-34/85 being over modeled then the fact that most of the terrains in AH3 are suited for the characteristic of the T34. The T34 is fast and has a gun capable of killing most anything frontally shy of a T2 at 1200yds, the distance in which most combats take place. The other tanks Panzer 4, Tigers, Sherman 76, fireflys, and Jagd's are much better killing at long distance, but due to the fact that AH3 GV warfare is hide and seek tree hugging nonsense I don't see much use for them. Back in AH2 with the more open terrains, the GV action was much more diverse.
I think this is correct. I’m no tank ace but I have had a long affection for the T/76 with its slow firing popgun. I have noticed I seem to be able to get more kills/live longer in AH3 than I could in AH2. I don’t think this is down to any skill improvement but rather, like you say, the terrain. You have to get pretty close to be effective.
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Hurri 2D likey T34 85. :aok
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mmmMMMMmmmm bacon
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Hurri 2D likey T34 85. :aok
The stuka is also way more fun albeit much riskier than bomb****ing. However t34s are tough nuts to crack compared to m4s and panzers.
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The Stuka can kill any tank in the game other then the T2 with two rounds to the top of the turret, the T2 takes 4. The thing about AH3 that makes the T34 very suited for battle is the unrealistic trees and lack of infantry. Most heavily forested areas IRL are mostly impassable to AFVS. That would force them to stay on roads leaving them vulnerable to infantry ambush, anti-tank artillery, and air attack. In AH3 however, a tank can most anywhere. If the terrain were to be more open you would see more Panzers, Panthers, ect which have better sights and longer range guns. Reasons for heavy Soviet tank losses in WW2 had less to do with the tanks themselves, and more to do with doctrine and some minor details.
1. Some T34's didn't have sights and were forced to use the mg to determine range. Others that did have sights, the were not mounted properly and could not maintain calibration. The same goes with radios.
2. The Soviets were not overly concerned with casualties, They would use shock armies to punch a hole through German lines and exploit them with huge numbers of mobile reserves. The assault forces wear usually decimated in the process.
I agree with perking to T34 more in principal, but with so few new guys in GVS and since most vets have 1000's of perks to blow I don't see it having much of an effect.
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The stuka is also way more fun albeit much riskier than bomb****ing. However t34s are tough nuts to crack compared to m4s and panzers.
Hurri2D is all Cannon. No bombs. 40mm AP.
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Perking does have an effect. It's the reason why most perk planes don't even get close to the amount of kills as a 5eny plane. The temp last tour has 1000 kills compared to the P51 with 5K kills, the yak3 and spit16 with 3500 kills and F4u1c with 700. Soo even today with players like me who have 12,000 perks, they don't utilized nearly as much as you might think.
Now, I dont know much about tanks. But i believe anything that gets 11,000 kills should be perked adjusted. This would cut those #s in half and would balance the tank fights a little better. One superior plane or tank outmatching all of the others is a clear sign that it has some kind of advantages over others.
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Well, again tonight, guys were complaining about the 85...a player ranted "I tracked him and he was smoking and another 4 hvap hits to kill him" it's frigging crazy. The guys that love it will buy it. I pull my hair out hitting that tank. Don't tell me it's where you hit it. I've hit it every possible place. All the same out come. Actually I did kill one tonight with 2 hits!! Woohoo
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Take 2 WWII documentaries and call us in the morning :aok
:rofl Thanks Doc...er Drunk Monk :aok Its the Robitussin for AH geezers, but it works! :rock
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Hurri2D is all Cannon. No bombs. 40mm AP.
Im aware of that. Its just that even with the stuka guns the t34 is significantly more difficult to kill than the other primary tanks.
Might try the hurri2d as its an easier platform to fly. I just have less luck with the 40mm
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I had 5 T-34/85 kills last month in the Yak 9T, which usually involved a shot down through the top of the turret with the 37mm. I even got a decent whine out of 8thjinx which was extremely satisfying.
Melee Tour 225
Kills of T-34/85 by Vulcan in a
Yak-9T
Player Name Killed
1BDSPADE 2
8thJinx 1
eddiek 1
NoTaR 1
So the /85 isn't that bad. I also got hamrdown on the weekend (in a panther), he went full tard calling me a hacker and everything, made my day :) . People from that squad seem to have anger management issues.
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Im aware of that. Its just that even with the stuka guns the t34 is significantly more difficult to kill than the other primary tanks.
Might try the hurri2d as its an easier platform to fly. I just have less luck with the 40mm
Try setting convergence to 400, dive at 45’, hit the top of the turret or the turret hull confluence. That will either kill if both rounds hit, if only one round hits, it will disable the turret or engine. I don’t think it’s the armor but the relatively small size of the turret.
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Try setting convergence to 400, dive at 45’, hit the top of the turret or the turret hull confluence. That will either kill if both rounds hit, if only one round hits, it will disable the turret or engine. I don’t think it’s the armor but the relatively small size of the turret.
This. I get a lot of kills but you have to get close and fire like a sniper right down into the turret top.
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IRL T34/85 had only 45mm angled armor, but had a bouncy hull, and up to 100mm in the front of the turret.
It was fast, specially in snow. It's optics was not as good as the gun it had.
Only -5 deg depression of the gun was a defect all Russian tanks of the war had.
Germans had better optics than the T34/85, with a wider FOV.
Not all T34/85's had radios, even at the end of the war, a real killer in a dynamic mobile warfare.
IRL the worst thing was the average Russian crewmen: they where only trained on one position in the tank.
Russian where smart enough not use them as infantry when they got shot out of the tank, as the Germans did.
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I'd take the Hs129 with the 75mm gun as a solution to the T34 armor over a perk cost increase for the T34
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I'm starting to have AH3 withdrawals. :D
I went through them.....took about 2 weeks and got into another routine...and all's well now
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I went through them.....took about 2 weeks and got into another routine...and all's well now
Evidently not.... you are still here. :rofl
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All tanks except 3 are the same so why bother perking anything except thoose 3.
Every tank type has a model with a gun that kill every other tank with one shot.
They all have speeds between 22-34 mph
They can all be killed with one shot.
The only differentiation of note is...
M18 has a substantial speed deference but it can be knocked out by machine guns.
Tiger II can take multiple hits
Hetzer can take multiple hits
I can kill a T-34/85, or a Panther, or a Firefly. with one shot from a Panzer Mk IV, which is free. So what are you getting for those perk points?
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My T34s have been destroyed by every tank but the stug.
I did get a couple of easy T34 kills in a M16 when they were upside down.
I'm sure the shells were beating their speakers for 15 seconds after they were in the tower.
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All tanks except 3 are the same so why bother perking anything except thoose 3.
Every tank type has a model with a gun that kill every other tank with one shot.
They all have speeds between 22-34 mph
They can all be killed with one shot.
IRL many tanks were not a one penetration kill, but you slowed down the response from that tank, incapacitated crew members or disabled the gun engine or other parts.
For instance an APCR shot does 'only' a hole in through the armor and sometimes a hole out, with some fragmentation from the hit part. More frightening are the shots with explosive filler, but I suspect HTC are not using it since we don't have it for our planes.
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I would like to suggest the perk value of the T-34/85 be increased to 10 perk points because everyone is using it now and that puts it close to it's direct competitor the Panther G with a perk value of 12. You really don't see any other tanks being used anymore.
We used to see Hetzers,M-4/76's, Panzer H's, Panzer F's, and M-8's on a regular basis. Now it is rare to see them in battle. Increasing the perk value of the T-34/85 would balance out the use of tanks and restore the even spread we had before.
There used to be a couple of guys, their call signs escape me at the moment, but they used to pop the turrets of the Panzers with a M-8, knock out the engines of the Hetzers from behind, and forced everyone to up T-34/85's (mostly on the Bishop side) to counter the M-8's activity.
Now that everyone is driving a T-34/85 it is rare we see M-8's, Panzers, M-4/76's, or Hetzers being used in AH. Please restore the balance by increasing the perk value of the T-34/85 to 10 perk points. The GV aspect of AH is allot more fun when all of the tanks are being used.
That is my wish.
:salute
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All tanks except 3 are the same so why bother perking anything except thoose 3.
A bit late but...
If all those tanks were that much the same, they would not only be used more, but they would have quite similar results battling each other.
Since the very day AH3 dropped, the T-34/85 is totally dominating the battlegrounds.
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Just did some offline testing on a range where I can populate the end of the range with tank drones.
I set all T34\85 in the drone slots and did HVAP testing first, then some AP.
HVAP
2500 - 5
2000 - 2
1500 - 1(smoked engine), 3 more to kill.
1000 - 1
AP
2000 - 6
1000 - 1
The sloped armor defends the tank well until 1000yds. On the same range I have an 88 1.5 miles off with the closest tank drone about 2500yds, farthest about 3500yds. Takes a lot of 88 AP to kill the T34\85 becasue of that armor at long range. Same issues on a range with the 17lb at 1.5 miles.
Tested the Ju87, Il2 and HurriD.
Ju87 level shooting sub 100yd grass level will pop the T34 just like the Germans learned was the best way to use the tungsten carbide core rounds by the end of 44. The Hs 129 was famous for shooting 30mm TC cor rounds sub 100m at ground level killing even the heaviest Russian tanks.
IL2 at a 45degree angle starting from 1000yds out, firing at 600 going in, will either smoke the T34 or kill it on one pass with a 1-2sec burst. Shallower angles are next to usless.
HurriD takes a great deal of precision with a very steep angle of attack shooting the turret top or engine hatch. Also the rounds work best under 500yds making lawndarting a way of life.
The T34 is hard to kill with only attacker guns outside of very narrow parameters and many T34 drivers know this and wing shoot you for your trouble. Bombs are still the best way to get rid of them. No wonder everyone drives them in the game now.
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True using bombs is the most effective way but not nearly as fun as using a stuka g!
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A bit late but...
If all those tanks were that much the same, they would not only be used more, but they would have quite similar results battling each other.
Since the very day AH3 dropped, the T-34/85 is totally dominating the battlegrounds.
dominate how? Meaning everyone is using it? or that it's kill ratio vs other tanks is highest?
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dominate how? Meaning everyone is using it? or that it's kill ratio vs other tanks is highest?
It's both combined. A tank with high usage and high K/D at the same time could be called 'dominating the battlefield' (Of course, there is no exact threshold, it's a rather vague term)
'Kills-Deaths' can be used for a quick evaluation of the impact a machine has on the battlefield. For example, in the other thread I posted the top 'dominators' for fighjter vs fighter combat:
(https://i.imgur.com/LbDweV6.png)
This is the same chart for tank vs tank combat but time not just for the top tanks, but for all of them:
(https://i.imgur.com/OWSjZSH.png)
In 2018, the T-34/85 had not only 45% of all tank vs tank kills, it also had a K/D of 1,43 at the same time. This is huge.
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See rule #4
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Don't forget the T34\85 unique sloping armor. This last week I extensively tested shooting them 2000-4000 across the pit in the screen capture below. It was all ricochet light lances off their armor and 5-9 rounds to finally blow the drones up. There is a way to get tank drones onto test terrains that respond to tank fire exactly as in the MA. It's how I'm tweaking the shape of that bowl and removing at this point 50% of the trees you see in this screen capture after testing. The amount of trees here looks sparse which I thought also. Once I started testing shooting with drones out on the slopes, that is way too many trees. You have 6 drone slots and at best I would see 2 with that many trees.
The target is 4000yds and the T34\85 armor just laughs off rounds at that range. Inside of 3500, except for the Tiger2, the rest of the stable is not too hard to put down with fewer solid hits from panthers, Tigers and the T34\85. The Firefly is probably in that group, I didn't test it. Another interesting visual I ran into, I would spawn close to the drones and drive around to find the ones I could not see from across the bowl. Between 1500-2000 I would find them and at the moment I resolved the sight picture, it was obvious a shut down tank even in trees that sparse would have blown me away. A tank sitting under or next to a tree(s) seems to be rendered more like a part of the tree due to a lack of contrast you get if a tank is sitting on open grass away from trees at 1500-2000, it gets worse past 2000. In and under trees and clutter, a tank is a sitting duck if it's in motion becasue of the obvious contrast as it's motion through the trees creates contrast. No wonder so many tank players just sit around and do nothing in their tanks. He who moves first is blown away.
I now understand why the trees and bushes in AH3 are hated so much by players when they tank fight. The T34\85 at 2000 is problematic to a one shot kill even with HVAP due to the sloping armor. Depends on the angle your round at 2000 meets the sloped armor. At 2000 the T34\85 blows through most armor other than T34\85 and the Tiger family. It's AP does a number on the rest of the tanks past 2000 well enough to compete with the Tigers. I think it's on par perk wise with the Tiger family after my recent testing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJsLtbkY/tileset84.jpg)
Ultimately so I could see up to 5 tank drones I had to remove 50% of the trees on this tile type I painted the bowl with. The T34\85 will slaughter everything except for the Tiger family across this bowl.
50% of the trees are removed now augmented with random houses, barns and tiny hamlets. It takes hours to get random houses, barns and hamlets to show up inside of a 3mile diameter mixed elevation area.......thank you Waffle...... :furious
(https://i.postimg.cc/02DsJfjq/tileset93.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvCcjVC1/tileset94.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdXb4MZ2/tileset95.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8TCL80Q/tileset96.jpg)
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After all the testing I've recently performed with the T34\85 on my offline gunnery ranges and with the drones in the tank town on my new terrain. The T34\85 probably should be perked between the Tiger1 and Tiger2. In the MA for the last almost 3 years I have watched it slaughter everything forcing everyone into T34\85 just to compete. I understand why everyone drives the T34\85 almost exclusively now. Kind of puts to waste the investment in all those other tanks Waffle built for the game. Just like the CHog problem when it was first introduced unperked.
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Yeah it should definitely be perked signficantly.more than the m4 76 or even the firefly
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Don't forget the T34\85 unique sloping armor. This last week I extensively tested shooting them 2000-4000 across the pit in the screen capture below. It was all ricochet light lances off their armor and 5-9 rounds to finally blow the drones up.
The target is 4000yds and the T34\85 armor just laughs off rounds at that range.
4000 yards!!! wow. ummm what was the effectiveness of the real ww2 tanks at that range?
From what I read the effective range of WW2 tanks, even the Tiger, was sub 2000 and in reality sub 1000, in the region of 750 to 900 yards. I find your study lacking and I suggest more thorough testing before jumping to a conclusion.
Respectfully.
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I do think with those numbers it should be perked much higher, unless the intent is that it is the most used. In it's current state there really is no reason not to take it, it's the best bang for your buck.
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What would the effect be of Less t-34s on the battlefield? Another words how would it change the fight?
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The numbers don't lie.
They also don't have opinions on complex issues. :aok
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See rule #4
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What would the effect be of Less t-34s on the battlefield? Another words how would it change the fight?
One question to ask the community of tanker fans is how they used the tank stable in AH2 at the TT on Greebo's CraterMA. The whole stable was used, not just the T34\85 and other perk tanks. The recently added German stable of anti tank vehicles during that time period were a go to ride in that crater along with the Firefly for many.
This current bowl is modeled on the AH2 crater, a 1x1 structure in the center to hide in with 500ft higher slopes surrounding it to a 3mile diameter. As you see from my screen shots and testing with the vbrmt mini vbase object to get 6 tank drones on the ground. I had to remove 50% of all trees in that 3mile diameter area so tanks were not hidden. The goal with this tank fighting area is open vistas with varied terrain to use for concealment versus the brute force of easy mode disappereing inside of trees and clutter. The trees and clutter hiding has turned the AH3 tank combat game into a matter of who is better at shutting down and hiding versus driving and fighting. Historic European WW2 tank combat was varied from ambush hiding like is the norm now in AH3 on the eastern continent, to long open varied terrain grasslands in the east during the fight between Germany and Russia.
I was too conservative in how I opened up the tank combat terrain by removing trees on my first two terrains. My last one riftval is reasonable but, it did not inspire the use of other tanks since the T34\85 was now a competition driven reflex to choose it in the hanger. If the T34\85 was not 90% of the tanks competing on riftval, the way I designed the terrain would make the three anti tank german vehicles extremely effective due to the micro terrain and open vistas around every spawn. Their low to the ground profile would blend them into the sparse trees better than normal tanks.
Becasue I have the vested interest in three terrains for AH3 in which I was trying to give tank players enjoyable places to compete. It was obvious without Luche's graph that the T34\85 is used 90% of the time by the tanking community due to staying competitive. It dominates everything else below the Tigers from my observing tank game play becasue of my three terrains. No one notices that since all they see now are T34\85 to compete against.
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Granted my perspective on the matter is a tad out of date, but as far as I understand it, the primary factors driving the T-34/85 usage are, in conjunction with the heavy tree cover limiting typical range of engagement considerably from previous versions:
1) fast, and a quick turret traverse.
2) HVAP round is most useful at close ranges typically seen (in comparison to its total uselessness beyond 1200m in the engagements that were fairly common in previous versions)
3) loads of HVAP let it be the default if anyone's laid supplies
4) armor is very tough for non perk tanks beyond 2000m, where the terrain seem to open up a bit to extended shots. Even the L/70 and 88 L/56 need to be aimed with deliberation at that range.
5) it's cheap as hell
Basically the 800-2000m engagement window closed and blocked out much of the other tanks that excelled in that zone, such as the M4(76), Hetzer, and the generalist Panzer IV suffered across the board due to its weak armor necessitating a more opportunistic approach in slugging matches seen around spawns.
Were I to hazard a guess, reduced T-34/85 usage would be replaced by a combination of Fireflys and Panthers.
That hard punch up close sounds like it's a big factor for a lot of people. However the M4(76) will also likely see some more usage since it's turret is strong enough to shrug off poorly aimed rounds, and the rate of fire gives it a leg up at close range in the event of a miss or ricochet.
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Were I to hazard a guess, reduced T-34/85 usage would be replaced by a combination of Fireflys and Panthers.
But that's not my question. How would tactics/game play change with the switch to these vehicles.
HiTech
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But that's not my question. How would tactics/game play change with the switch to these vehicles.
HiTech
Ah, apologies.
Probably a lot less YOLO rushing and one-for-one kill exchanges.
Thinking on it, I'd posit that hull-down positions become rather more important with returned usage of the M4(76) and Firefly. People will gravitate towards the few open lanes of fire more.
Overall slightly increased Mean Time til Death due to reduced average travel speeds.
Dispersion of vehicles over the terrain will be more patchy. Few lanes of relatively high concentrations, and then less dense patches with people who pony up for a T-34 stalking in the denser areas, trying to flank the people stacked up on firing lanes.
Of course you'd have a few people in T-34's trying to hunt the enemy T-34's.
M18's might become quite important again actually, as the fast travel speeds could let them flank the firing lanes without the T-34's being able to engage because of the heavy cover.
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What would the effect be of Less t-34s on the battlefield? Another words how would it change the fight?
More lesser perked or unperked tanks I suppose. Panzers, M4s, T-34/76. The T-34/85 is used so much because it is fast, has a great gun, and costs very little compared to say a Panther of similar speed.
I'm not sure if tactics or gameplay would vary that much other than the use of a wider variety of tanks instead of just flocking to "the best one".
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The T34-85 is a video game tank. After you use it a while there is almost no point in using the gun-sight. I think if you take it out of the rotation, so to speak, the game play will be less dynamic, the perk tanks will feel more secure but their price will still curtail their use, (a major shame if you ask me.) People will still drive Panzers and the other T34 but it is not like removing the 85 will make driving those tanks any more secure.
To be honest, I think you could make the heavy tanks more accessible so they would get used more. You could make them randomly free from time to time, or not have them have to drive for 2 minutes dodging bombs to land without losing all their perks, maybe that way more people would get off the concrete.
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Unfortunately some vehicles have all but disappeared... jagpanther for example. Maybe they should have their perks lowered to make them less rare. Shame that the programming team created them but they hardly get used due to the terrain.
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Hitech likes data collected from his game.
I created a gunnery range for tanks that allows me to spawn in at 2000yds facing a drone 90deg to it's side on level ground. I tested shooting for the T34\85, Tiger1\2, Panther and Firefly at 2000, 1500 and 1000. I did the same with the PanzerH, T34\76 and M4\76 but only at 2000 and 1500 since 1000 will be pretty obvious. Testing at 1000 was to reach the range the T34\85 could take a Tiger2 with a single Hv or AP round.
Shooter-----Target
2000yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1-----Panther-----Firefly-----T34\85-----T34\76-----PanzerH-----M4\76
Tiger2--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Tiger1--------2AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Panther------2AP--------2AP-------1AP-- ------1AP--------1AP
Firefly--------2AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
T34\85---HvNef\12AP--2Hv\2AP--3Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----2Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef----19Hv\3AP- --2Hv\1AP---13Hv\12AP--6Hv\6AP----5Hv\1AP----6Hv\1Ap
PanzerH------7AP-------2AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
M4\76--------9AP-------4AP------2AP----------1AP--------2AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Shooter-----Target
1500yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1-----Panther-----Firefly-----T34\85-----T34\76-----PanzerH-----M4\76
Tiger2--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Tiger1--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Panther------1AP--------1AP-------1AP-- ------1AP--------1AP
Firefly--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
T34\85-----5Hv\2AP--2Hv\1AP---1Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef-----2Hv\2AP- --2Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----4Hv\2AP----2Hv\1AP----4Hv\2Ap
PanzerH------3AP-------2AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
M4\76--------5AP-------2AP-------1AP------ --1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Shooter-----Target
1000yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1
T34\85-----1Hv\1AP--1Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef
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So... the t34 85 gun is pretty darn good. Sights aren't as good as German tanks but at MA ranges it's not usually an issue....
What about frontal shots?
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Find out for yourself, it took hours to get that data oh lazy one, anyone has access to the terrain editor. I chose 90 deg as the benchmark of most often armor hit for all rides tested. Most of these tanks are almost impregnable into the galcias, T34\85 and others are beasts at off angles from 90deg. You test long enough and also start finding variances in the armor that can be exploited. Our tank aces probably know them and is part of why the T34\85 is so devastating. I started seeing those variances as I replicated shots to make sure 1AP was a standard for a given range.
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Since the accepted wisdom in AH3 is that tank combat takes place between 1000-2000 on average, the data collection of tank round effectiveness places the 85mm AP up there in the top 3 heavy guns not 88mm. In my testing I found even at 90deg against the T34\85 armor, shot placement at 1500-2000 could result in ricochets if you were not hitting under the upper sloped armor. The Panther a little less, while the only benefit the Panther had was it's hitting power against Tiger2 at 1500-2000. The two rides seem to me as identical in hitting power for normal MA engagements with the Hv round being problematical versus the AP.
What then is the difference in the Panther and T34\85 that causes so many to choose the T34? Should only the Tiger1\2 be perked or even only the Tiger2? From the shooting data you can extrapolate how well other rides in the tank stable will be expected to do between 1500-2000. From 1500-2000 the Tiger2 is the only beast in the stable, maybe at 3000 it's gun becomes equally ineffective as all the rest.
I will also venture from my range experience that no two players are getting the same results when they line up the aiming reticle. In the T34\85 at 1500-2000 I found just the width of the horizontal line high or low translated into ricochet or hits into the tracks and wheels. Same with the german optics triangles and the US\Brit ladder. Offline my drones are not effected by the internet for positioning, so is it possible internet issues can make what you think is a just under the upper armor killshot a ricochet off the sloped armor just above? I have listened for years during fights, players complaining about things like that after firing 5-7 shots. The T34 sloped upper armor takes a lot of rounds if all you want to do is create ricochets. That sloped armor may well be 1\2 it's selling point versus other rides. My squad has 3 hard core tankers and from time to time they have logged for the evening due to that. And this is all AH3 standard combat range 1500-2000. Until I got used to the T34\85 sight, I scored lots of ricochets off that upper armor at a 90deg to the tank shot on my range. It took awhile to learn where to aim for a 1 shot kill. And that may well be another issue entirely since with each tank tested especially at 2000, I had to learn where the 1 shot kill spot was for rounds less than the 88mm.
I remember a long time ago someone telling me the reason they could shoot faster than most other tank players was that they used dry erase marks on their monitor so they could stay in commander mode for the better vision. I tested something like that on my tank range but, with a silk thread taped on my monitor frame. Works pretty good 1000-1500, and I do use a ball mouse which gives me very good control of my turret. This leads to another common complaint I hear, how can players see through trees or over hills. The gun position aiming port is 3-5ft below the eye level of the commander while the round in some cases will arc just over the hilltop dropping into the target or pass through the leaves of the trees on the way out.
So just like with air combat ACM, some tank players invest more time and effort into the game like I just spent my Sunday building a test arena with a gunnery range to collect data on the tank cannons in this game. My current terrain in production still benefited from it since I needed to know something about how a tile looks on flat ground that I'm using on the terrain.
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By the way, here is the gunnery range, I use the tiny vbase so it can generate tanks in the 6 drone slots. Then I set the spawn into the place at 2000yds from the closest drone tank. I up the target with the target command at 2000. It's just a matter of changing the target to 1500 then 1000 and driving forward. The drone slot is number four so I change out tank targets on the fly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKnHLZxN/tileset97.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tn5cqW6/tileset98.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M6XxQSk/tileset99.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSSS0VYd/tileset100.jpg)
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Unless gun performance has changed since the AH2, the T-34/85's Zis-S-53 is actually among the weakest performers in practical terms beyond 1200m.
The primary problem being a lack of penetration especially against other T-34's, with the compound angle on the armor when an opponent properly angles their tank defeating the gun nearly 100% of the time in practical applications.
The Hetzer was a strong performer against the T-34/85 since its effectively immune from the frontal quarter beyond about 800m.
The pure killing power of the Zis-53 WHEN IT PENETRATES has been known about for a long time; this can be inferred without any experience from damage tables, and is certainly well known to HiTech.
More useful would be logs of real-usage data, such as rounds fired before first hit, percentage of hits ricochetting, penetrations to kill, and type of round fired.
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It's WAYYYY to powerful and damage resistant.
Everybody like to say that. Proving it is another matter.
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Unless gun performance has changed since the AH2, the T-34/85's Zis-S-53 is actually among the weakest performers in practical terms beyond 1200m.
The primary problem being a lack of penetration especially against other T-34's, with the compound angle on the armor when an opponent properly angles their tank defeating the gun nearly 100% of the time in practical applications.
The Hetzer was a strong performer against the T-34/85 since its effectively immune from the frontal quarter beyond about 800m.
The pure killing power of the Zis-53 WHEN IT PENETRATES has been known about for a long time; this can be inferred without any experience from damage tables, and is certainly well known to HiTech.
More useful would be logs of real-usage data, such as rounds fired before first hit, percentage of hits ricochetting, penetrations to kill, and type of round fired.
Guess I just made up that data table 1000-2000yds and didn't spend my Sunday building a gunnery range and collecting data from Hitech's virtual world. 1200m is 1312yds and the table shows 1AP killing shots doing quite well for the T34\85 in Hitech's environment at 2000. Becasue of the AH3 speedtree trees and clutter, the majority of game combat is 1000-2000 distance. So, do you have any Hitech environment collected data to share? Part of my investment in this data collection is the 4th MA terrain I have in production right now. I am very curious in this whole T34\85 discussion due to testing on my new terrain that opened my eyes to an aspect of how tanks are rendered. This is at a distance related to even a single tree they sit under or just behind, especially on dissimilar elevations. The AH3 trees and clutter hides tanks better with less of it. Ties back to my range shooting tests and issues related to the reticles in this game since I can put tank drones anywhere on my terrains to test seeing them and shooting at them. That was last week when I tested that on my new terrain for several days.
You got any data like that to offer, I'm pulling my own testing data to help build better tank combat micro terrain for the MA. I don't much care about the real world since I'm building against the data pulled from testing in Hitech's virtual world. Hitech once told me 1Mil is one unit wide at 1000 dist in his world. So I had to build a gunnery range to test for Hitech's data not test for the real world.
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Bustr you make great maps and I am glad they are in the rotation. You have to admit you are not a regular GV'er. It is not your thing. Nothing wrong with that. There is allot to do in AH and many prefer to fly fighters and bombers. All many of us who mostly GV are asking is to please up the perk value of the T-34/85 to be more on the level with the Panther G. If there is no ENY, the value of the Panther G is approx. 12. Make the perk value of the T-34/85 Ten only because it does not have a zoomed in scope available. The T-34/85 historically was a great tank. It literally gave the Germans fits. Angled armor required precise shots for a kill or the shot ricocheted off. The Tiger 1 and Panther G were specifically developed to counter it. What allot of GV'er would like is to see is all the GV's in the line up being used. Keyword here is: All of the GV's being used. If you increase the perk value of the T-34/85 it will be used less often. It will still be used but more in line with the Panther G usage.
My two cents
:salute
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I can't see why the jeep is not used more..... I mean Rat Patrol and all. They slaughtered everything. It was even on TV.
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Mano,
I created a way to provide comparison data for cannon effectiveness since the original poster's assertion resonated with Lusche's graphs. I don't need to be a tank player in this game to build a gunnery range to collect that data since 2000 on my range is the same as 2000 in the MA. The results will be the same becasue the same code is running for my range as is the MA.
After hours of taking shots it became obvious no two players will have the same outcomes every time since they will judge their reticles differently off the first shot along with everything else that goes with the online environment. Offline is the benchmark of what can happen when a shot is placed properly. You, me, or some 11 year old xBox hero will get the same results shooting on my offline range because it's a computer program. It's the same issue with shooting trials at Aberdeen MD during WW2 when cannons and rounds were tested under ideal conditions. And when you look at the ballistics charts to create the data in put for the in game ballistics performance, you use the ideal condition testing data from Aberdeen 1940's. After that, it's up to the individual player and his interpretation of what he sees and possibly any irregularity introduced by the internet.
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The topic is: T34 85 time for perk upgrade
Maybe you meant to post to a different thread.
:salute
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The problem is that your data is largely irrelevant to the in-game performance of the tanks and weather or not perk prices need to be changed.
Damage on penetration is perhaps the least important aspect of combat. And on top of that your testing procedure, while consistent and repeatable, does NOT take real-world circumstances into account, and thus is almost useless from a practical standpoint.
If you were advising a noob how to play, you would have given him endless frustration as you tell him his T-34/85 has a great gun, and yet he consistently struggles with penetrating enemies that aren't so stupid as to park square on into incoming rounds, and doesn't understand why they're just going through his armor like butter.
You want useful data? Compare ranges of immunity vs other tanks and their overlap (if there are any). Compare probability of first round hit at unknown ranges, compare repeatability of point of aim.
THATS what matters for fighting a tank.
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After reading Bustr's knock-out table, it does not correspond to what happened in real life ( if I read it correctly).
Only the IS2 and the 152mm monster could reliable kill a Panther at combat ranges frontally, whereas pretty much everything the Germans had could penetrate a T34/85 at combat ranges. To penetrate a Tiger I reliable a T34/85 need to get within 500 yards to penetrate it frontally.
T34/85 were almost useless over 1.5k yards due to bad optics and gun dispersion.
Normal woods should force tanks to go on small roads.
Woods have always been a tank killer, infantry weapons have a field day against tanks vulnerable sides and rear, almost regardless what tank you had.
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So... the t34 85 gun is pretty darn good. Sights aren't as good as German tanks but at MA ranges it's not usually an issue....
What about frontal shots?
Some did not even have sights, and the ones that had them found they were often faulty. It was not all that uncommon for a T34 to use its MG to ascertain range up until the end of the war.
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After reading Bustr's knock-out table, it does not correspond to what happened in real life ( if I read it correctly).
Only the IS2 and the 152mm monster could reliable kill a Panther at combat ranges frontally, whereas pretty much everything the Germans had could penetrate a T34/85 at combat ranges. To penetrate a Tiger I reliable a T34/85 need to get within 500 yards to penetrate it frontally.
T34/85 were almost useless over 1.5k yards due to bad optics and gun dispersion.
Normal woods should force tanks to go on small roads.
Woods have always been a tank killer, infantry weapons have a field day against tanks vulnerable sides and rear, almost regardless what tank you had.
Bustr's tables are only relevant for damage done upon perforation of the armor. They don't reflect penetration of the firing weapons, nor potential efficacy of the armor of the target.
A Tiger I's hull can be angled so that it is invulnerable to standard AP rounds at point blank range from a T-34/85.
Additionally I've knocked out T-34's from 2200m with a Panzer IV F2. You just have to know where to aim.
The tank game is far more finessed than his tables would indicate.
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the T34-85 has slanted amour which in this game can take more hits depending where its hit. in real life WWII russia lost a ton of T34s.
my T34 gets killed alot from othewr T-34's and panzers
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the T34-85 has slanted amour which in this game can take more hits depending where its hit. in real life WWII russia lost a ton of T34s.
my T34 gets killed alot from othewr T-34's and panzers
Yeah Lunatic, but your special!!! :neener:
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Aside from in game, your shots might be at quarter angles and varied elevations, I pointed out that and the obvious of the width of the pixel line Waffle constructed the reticle with was the difference in a 1 shot kill or ricochet. Other variances by 1-2pixels in aiming are simply how the bottom of the treds and the ground look from different players graphics card and monitor.
You gents want to quibble and flutter your purses about, build a gunnery test terrain and pull your own data. THE DATA IS THE DATA BECAUSE IT IS A COMPUTER PROGRAM. Otherwise you are only describing anecdotal experiences and your personal needs based on your bias's in response to my testing. I didn't test off angles as a "data set" becasue the rounds will ricochet as expected, because I did off angles tests and didn't get penetration data to help me build my tank combat pit. I did a static test at 90 degrees to pull Hitech's data table at 90 degrees.
Find something else to start a purse fight over you numpties.....
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Your data is irrelevant. If you don't understand the subject The topic is: T34 85 time for perk upgrade,
then post to a subject you understand.
:salute
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Yeah I'm pretty sure the argument is that the t34/85s gun penetration + reload + turret rotation speed + armor + vehicle speed is a killer combo worthy of a significantly higher perk than say the m4/76, firefly or jagpanzer that all have much worse rounded tanks.
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It's both combined. A tank with high usage and high K/D at the same time could be called 'dominating the battlefield' (Of course, there is no exact threshold, it's a rather vague term)
'Kills-Deaths' can be used for a quick evaluation of the impact a machine has on the battlefield. For example, in the other thread I posted the top 'dominators' for fighjter vs fighter combat:
(https://i.imgur.com/LbDweV6.png)
This is the same chart for tank vs tank combat but time not just for the top tanks, but for all of them:
(https://i.imgur.com/OWSjZSH.png)
In 2018, the T-34/85 had not only 45% of all tank vs tank kills, it also had a K/D of 1,43 at the same time. This is huge.
It's interesting that it's kill ratio is high. Is that data skewed at all by some highly effective players making it there tank of choice? I don't believe that the performance differences of the T-34 give it a decisive advantage in the vast majority of tank encounters in AH. I suspect the tank aces making it their choice of tank are making the tank look invincible.
Perking it will redistribute numbers among the other tanks, but why is that better and how does game play change? :salute
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Perking it will make it drinkable.
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It's interesting that it's kill ratio is high. Is that data skewed at all by some highly effective players making it there tank of choice? I don't believe that the performance differences of the T-34 give it a decisive advantage in the vast majority of tank encounters in AH. I suspect the tank aces making it their choice of tank are making the tank look invincible.
Perking it will redistribute numbers among the other tanks, but why is that better and how does game play change? :salute
It means that the T-34/85 is simply the default choice, and that most everything else is fodder for the T-34/85.
Reasonably I think that the Panther, Tiger, and Tiger II are not falling victim to it at disproportionate rates to its overall usage.
Taken together, this means the M4's, Panzers, and T-34/76's (if any meaningful usage remains) are being utterly eaten alive, since the Cats will likely depress the T-34's KTD.
In other words, it's stupidly OP for its perk price.
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It means that the T-34/85 is simply the default choice, and that most everything else is fodder for the T-34/85.
Reasonably I think that the Panther, Tiger, and Tiger II are not falling victim to it at disproportionate rates to its overall usage.
Taken together, this means the M4's, Panzers, and T-34/76's (if any meaningful usage remains) are being utterly eaten alive, since the Cats will likely depress the T-34's KTD.
In other words, it's stupidly OP for its perk price.
This pretty much sums it up, my thoughts all along.
Why take a M4-76 when you can have a T-34-85 for 1-2 more perks?
Why take a Panther when the T-34-85 is just as fast and costs much less?
It's the best bang for the buck tank available. Fast, hard hitting, bouncy. It doesn't really have a downside.
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This pretty much sums it up, my thoughts all along.
Why take a M4-76 when you can have a T-34-85 for 1-2 more perks?
Why take a Panther when the T-34-85 is just as fast and costs much less?
It's the best bang for the buck tank available. Fast, hard hitting, bouncy. It doesn't really have a downside.
Except that it's literally the third worst tank in the game beyond 1300m or so.
But that seems not to matter.
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Your data is irrelevant. If you don't understand the subject The topic is: T34 85 time for perk upgrade,
then post to a subject you understand.
:salute
Data is irrelevant when it comes to adjusting perk cost? C'mon, man. Really? It's suddenly starting sound like an 'I want what I want and who cares about the reasoning!' thing whenever you post. :aok
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Data is irrelevant when it comes to adjusting perk cost? C'mon, man. Really? It's suddenly starting sound like an 'I want what I want and who cares about the reasoning!' thing whenever you post. :aok
His "data" is only relevant for damage done upon penetration of the armor, which is almost the most useless Stat for tank combat, right ahead of range and how big the cup holders are.
More to the point though, it's also redundant since we have damage tables from HTC available to us, and with a bit of extrapolation we can infer what he wasted time plotting out on a table to a finer degree of precision than is useful.
His claim that the Zis-S-53 is a good gun is entirely incorrect given the conditionality of its merits and the generalized nature of the statements he tends to make.
Its just more off-the-mark pedantry, and mano is entirely correct to dismiss its usefulness out of hand.
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Its just more off-the-mark pedantry, and mano is entirely correct to dismiss its usefulness out of hand.
Out and out dismissal does not make for a claim that the argument is off topic entirely. You can say someone is wrong in their argument ... and why (sorta like you) but stomping one's feet and attempting to dis-invite another from the topic entirely simply because one doesn't like the manner in which it was approached is sophistry.
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Out and out dismissal does not make for a claim that the argument is off topic entirely. You can say someone is wrong in their argument ... and why (sorta like you) but stomping one's feet and attempting to dis-invite another from the topic entirely simply because one doesn't like the manner in which it was approached is sophistry.
While I don't disagree in principle, mano was nonetheless quite correct in saying that THE DATA THAT WAS GATHERED is irrelevant (as I explained why previously). But I don't think Mano was saying data in general is useless.
However Bustr, as per usual, has simply ignored any feedback and implied we were simply not reading his tables or that were calling him a liar.
I think the blatant refusal to make meaningful responses, while not warranting Mano's response, does exempt him from such harsh criticism.
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This pretty much sums it up, my thoughts all along.
Why take a M4-76 when you can have a T-34-85 for 1-2 more perks?
Why take a Panther when the T-34-85 is just as fast and costs much less?
It's the best bang for the buck tank available. Fast, hard hitting, bouncy. It doesn't really have a downside.
Hmm I think you need to see the data. If everyone takes a T-34 it's kill ratio would be 1:1
Folks are super careful with Panthers, TigerII. so they're bound to have high kill ratios.
Stats are padded by spawn campers racking up big numbers against spawn breakers. No one tries to spawn break with perk tanks.
I've had thousands of panzer vs T-34 encounters, and it's super easy to kill a t-34 with one shot. I feel the higher kill ratio might be based on situational usage and Driver skill. I think the claims that its because the tank is uber are exaggerated. Perhaps Lusche has a way to clarify.
If it's use case, perking it wont change game play, it will just move kills from T-34s to Panzers and Sherman. The same drivers will continue to win, and lose in the exact same way they do now. Only the name of the tank will be different. :salute
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Inside of 2500 per my testing, the T34's armor configuration was it's single best attribute to survival. At those ranges 75mm and larger guns were pretty much single shot kills if the player understood the T34 armor. If you don't, until you are under 1500, you probably think the T34 is over modeled, over used, and needs a hefty perk added to it.
I love how all the barracks lawyers can quibble there is a there when the testing data is pure and raw. The T34 has an armor configuration advantage that makes it more than an easy kill while it's gun as long as you fight 2000 and closer is a one shot kill on most tanks. It is used more than other tanks giving it the perception of uber qualities.
Becasue I build MA terrains and am always asking questions of GVers and listening specifically for GV real time information feed back in the MA. Many of these complaints about the T34 boils down to the sloped armor doing what it was designed to do. Or at least Hitech's interpretation of the real world data presented in his version of the T34\85.
Our barracks lawyers as usual are trying to turn this into the equivalent of you can't present information about your head cold unless you are a doctor to make their opinions the only knowledge we can use as gospel. That for them is easier than building a tank gunnery range and testing all of this to produce a data set. Kind of lazy.....
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Inside of 2500 per my testing, the T34's armor configuration was it's single best attribute to survival. At those ranges 75mm and larger guns were pretty much single shot kills if the player understood the T34 armor. If you don't, until you are under 1500, you probably think the T34 is over modeled, over used, and needs a hefty perk added to it.
I love how all the barracks lawyers can quibble there is a there when the testing data is pure and raw. The T34 has an armor configuration advantage that makes it more than an easy kill while it's gun as long as you fight 2000 and closer is a one shot kill on most tanks. It is used more than other tanks giving it the perception of uber qualities.
Becasue I build MA terrains and am always asking questions of GVers and listening specifically for GV real time information feed back in the MA. Many of these complaints about the T34 boils down to the sloped armor doing what it was designed to do. Or at least Hitech's interpretation of the real world data presented in his version of the T34\85.
Our barracks lawyers as usual are trying to turn this into the equivalent of you can't present information about your head cold unless you are a doctor to make their opinions the only knowledge we can use as gospel. That for them is easier than building a tank gunnery range and testing all of this to produce a data set. Kind of lazy.....
Bustr we know the tanks are modeled different. your data only confirms that. Are folks racking up big kills in T-34s from 2500 yards? USE CASE doesn;t take advantage of strengths and weaknesses. if they are all shooting at each other at a spawn or fighting on a base, or ambushing each other between spawn, they are shooting from 1000 yards +- 200. at those ranges, everything can kill everything with one shot. so your "data" on armor thickness, and kills@ distance are most likely meaningless. :salute
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... everything can kill everything with one shot.
Un-perk all tanks.
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Not sure why Bustrs data hijacked the basis of this thread. The T34 85 is the best balanced tank. Good speed, gun, turret rotation, reload time, and armor. No magnifying sight which is largely negated by the normal ah3 engagement ranges. It's almost as good as a Panther overall but with a much lower perk value. And much better overall than the m4 76 or firefly or jagpanzer which are perked similarly.
Doubling its perk cost to be more in between the m4 76 and panther seems like a no brainer.
Now you can go back to bickering about the range at which you can kill eachother with each tank armor/gun combo.
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Not sure why Bustrs data hijacked the basis of this thread. The T34 85 is the best balanced tank. Good speed, gun, turret rotation, reload time, and armor. No magnifying sight which is largely negated by the normal ah3 engagement ranges. It's almost as good as a Panther overall but with a much lower perk value. And much better overall than the m4 76 or firefly or jagpanzer which are perked similarly.
Doubling its perk cost to be more in between the m4 76 and panther seems like a no brainer.
Now you can go back to bickering about the range at which you can kill eachother with each tank armor/gun combo.
Exactly!
:aok
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Not sure why Bustrs data hijacked the basis of this thread. The T34 85 is the best balanced tank. Good speed, gun, turret rotation, reload time, and armor. No magnifying sight which is largely negated by the normal ah3 engagement ranges. It's almost as good as a Panther overall but with a much lower perk value. And much better overall than the m4 76 or firefly or jagpanzer which are perked similarly.
Doubling its perk cost to be more in between the m4 76 and panther seems like a no brainer.
Now you can go back to bickering about the range at which you can kill each other with each tank armor/gun combo.
Why is less T-34s a good thing? Is this Jedi logic where we must bring balance to the Force? The Force was good until it was "Balanced" by turning Anakin into a Sith. Duh!
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The only thing the perk cost on the t34 the m18 and the m4 does is make you pick another tank when trying to up from a camped hanger or over camped spawn. V perks only effect the cat tanks and pricey bug tanks. I think if you want to restrain t34 usage you would have to put its price up to an obnoxious cost. Frankly I don’t know what you should do as the cost of some tanks makes them hanger queens, on the other hand concrete sitting seems less of a thing now and it is nice to see some players willing to risk as much as .01 percent of their perk wealth :) by coming out to play
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I can own you all in a jeep.
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Not sure why Bustrs data hijacked the basis of this thread. The T34 85 is the best balanced tank. Good speed, gun, turret rotation, reload time, and armor. No magnifying sight which is largely negated by the normal ah3 engagement ranges. It's almost as good as a Panther overall but with a much lower perk value. And much better overall than the m4 76 or firefly or jagpanzer which are perked similarly.
Doubling its perk cost to be more in between the m4 76 and panther seems like a no brainer.
Now you can go back to bickering about the range at which you can kill eachother with each tank armor/gun combo.
It is because he did not comprehend the original post made by BaronVonDeath. Anyone who disagrees with him is a Barracks Lawyer.
BaronVonDeath made a second post not long after his first post. It is possible he did not read either post and wanted to post his gunnery data anyway.
:D :D :D
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Why is less T-34s a good thing? Is this Jedi logic where we must bring balance to the Force? The Force was good until it was "Balanced" by turning Anakin into a Sith. Duh!
Variety is nice. HtC spent a lot of effort modeling various planes and tanks. Might as well see them out there.
Come to think of it, maybe this game would be more interesting if we only had 3 planes and 3 tanks to choose from with a rock paper scissors mindset. Not sure what 3 it would be though
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Variety is nice. HtC spent a lot of effort modeling various planes and tanks. Might as well see them out there.
Come to think of it, maybe this game would be more interesting if we only had 3 planes and 3 tanks to choose from with a rock paper scissors mindset. Not sure what 3 it would be though
Please try to understand that variety of shapes is not the goal. The different performance attributes of each vehicle/plane are supposed to create a diversity of outcomes driven by adapting use cases. if the use cases nullify the attribute differences, then all your left with is a variety of shapes. in such a case, why is even distribution across the shapes a good thing?
Plane fights differ greatly, because the sky does not limit the use case of engagement. Tank fights are all the same because most of the terrains (trees, hills, etc) limit the use case for tank engagements to close range shots. This makes the differing tank attributes (speed, armor thickness, muzzle velocity) non-factors. That's why you don't see Tiger IIs running around in the woods chasing Panzer IVs. You will see 262s and Typhoons engaging Brewsters, and P-40s in the sky however.
So perking Tanks only balances the shapes not the fight. The fight is already balanced. :salute
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Huh?
I just like different matchups. I'm all for changing the terrain to give other tanks more usefulness. Maybe a desert terrain or open plains with less cover that provide longer range engagement opportunities.
Cue offtopic mapmaking rant in 3, 2, 1...
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Huh?
I just like different matchups. I'm all for changing the terrain to give other tanks more usefulness. Maybe a desert terrain or open plains with less cover that provide longer range engagement opportunities.
Cue offtopic mapmaking rant in 3, 2, 1...
This will only encourage the mudhens.
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Huh?
I just like different matchups. I'm all for changing the terrain to give other tanks more usefulness. Maybe a desert terrain or open plains with less cover that provide longer range engagement opportunities.
If the terrains were as you say then the tank differences would be more of a factor in the out come. Then the data of usage and kill ratio to determine perks might be worth something, and a diversity of match ups and outcomes would result. But I don;t make terrains so I can't help. :salute
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I cant remember the map, but there was a spawn (85?) fight that was always a hoot with 2 sides just duking it out non stop. And I'm not really a GVer. But I do wish for some additional variety in the gv fight. I cant even remember the last time I encountered a jagdpanther.
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You need to ask the right questions.
The heavy tree and bush cluttered maps have been conquered by a handful of players who shoot from commander mode while their victims waste time looking for them, then jump to the gun sight. Commander mode your eyes are up to 6ft higher than in gun mode making people think you can shoot through trees and hills. As long as your round is 4ft or so away from large branches and trunks, your round passes through leaves your target's commander can't see through from the gun sight 5-6ft lower down than the commander view. I kill tanks hiding under leaves all the time shooting blind with my IL2.
The right question to ask if the aces will give it up, how do you setup commander mode so you have an aimpoint to aim the main gun 2000, 1500, 1000 and so forth. Past 2000 many of the tank guns are not sure one shot killers. After that, it's developing those tank combat skills of shutting down to ambush and driving smart to hunt. Commander mode is superior to seeing around than gunsight mode.
Someone told me he has marks on his monitor and drives people nuts with how easy he kills them in commander mode. Maybe you guys should wish for a commander mode reticle like the fire control Mil reticle you get shooting the big guns on the cruiser and battleship. WW2 binoculars had reticles.
And I've listened to the complaints for several years now from many tankers about the trees and players like Dr7's magic invisibility and incredible shooting in deep clutter and trees. So the terrain currently in production, here is what I'm doing for all those long rangers who believe long open vistas will magically make them GV gauwds.
At all spawns the trees will be this sparse or sparser, I'm still undecided since this spot on the map I keep playing with the trees and spawning out to test the view. That is a village in the bottom of the depression that everyone will spawn right on top of each other to fight over like the AH2 CraterMA tank town. The dimensions of this area are the same. I'll make the terrain around all the airfields just as sparse for tanks. All I can say is be carfule what you scream for. And I'm testing laying down random bits and pieces of villages to hide behind.
SPARSE
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5kLHvh3/tileset91.jpg)
SPARSER
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdXb4MZ2/tileset95.jpg)
I'm about halfway finished with all those mountain ranges and that vbase in the center is so I can test offline by setting out tank drones and finding them from the rim with the panther optics. I move that vbase all around the area in the center to see what the tanks look like through my SAPRSE AND SPARSER testing. It's one of those super tiny ones I used in the center of BowlMA. Good way to setup an offline tank gunnery range to shoot at tanks. Tested a silk thread with marks on it taped to my monitor frame down the center for commander mode shooting. Yeah, marks on your monitor or a clear overlay with marks from commander mode will work shooting to 2000. And you get zoom in your T34 that way. Maybe a clear plastic strip an inch wide that I tape on just before using a tank each time. Can probably get something from a stationary store that will work. That would make my squad mates 1bspade and slider monsters...hmmm, I tested that string with the 88 on a tank range for direct fire....wish we had the direct fire reticle... :lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1Cp9wwf/tileset132.jpg)
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SPARSER
Bustr, new maps and all the work you do on them is greatly appreciated. are the trees a response to bomb****s? it seems like a great map for tank battles, might result in no tank battles due to the ease with which sparse terrain allows aircraft to find and kill GVs. Hmmm it's difficult problem.
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See I told you, first whines for years the trees are too thick and all I heard in the MA from O'l Goldilocks and the Bear Co. was Hitech needed to thin the trees to be like AH2. So now I thin the trees and O'l Goldilocks thinks the porridge is too thin.
Fortunately that tank town, I set a circle at 1.5radii sectors out from the three center 1x1 vbases on my blueprint. There are no airfields inside of that 3 sector diameter center of the map area to make casual airplane interference a time involved chore for most players. Also each vbase will have a spawn from one of it's country's uncapturable feilds close enough on a high wooded overlook so you can spawn in a panzer assault force and wipe out the vbase quickly with HE and run in an M3 hoard. That way the tankers can keep the fun going one way or another in spite of the greifers.
As for the rest of the map, there will only be those three vbase while airfields will be connected with spawns. At this time I'm pretty sure since I will be placing spawns much closer together to speed up tank to tank contact, I'll add a local spawn from each airfield out to the incoming GV spawns. With today's numbers, four vehical hangers at a vbase feeding tanks onto airfields is just too many hangers to expect anyone to take down to relieve the pressure by tanks against an overwhelmed airfield. With airfields having the single hanger, it will be easier to slow down a tank assault for your average MA player. These days I hear a lot of the equivalent to "why bother, it's way too much trouble" against the AH3 objects. I can't change the objects themselves but, I can change how I use them to speed up or slowdown the game flow in the MA. It takes about three or four MA terrains to get a handle on this aspect of the game.
As for the thin trees, live with it. I suspect the players most impacted by it will be the small number of tank ACM monsters like Dr7 who have adapted to the AH3 too thick trees and clutter. The North Sea island I'm using to pattern the topography from has no trees, and there have been those asking for more real world like MA terrains. So this time around, screech alls yas wants, thin trees and more real world like topography. Each and every one of my past three terrains screwed someone's sacred pooch while making others happier than Peggy Bundy locked in a Bon Bon factory overnight.
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I dont think anyone is saying there are too many trees. Just that it would be nice to have to be some variety in cover that would lead people to use different tools (tanks) based on the situation. Some desert terrains or open plains, and some forest terrains. Simulating the different environment of ww2.
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Then build a terrain if you want that.
This one below is based off Norway's Svalbard island near the arctic circle. I used a topographical profile geomap and stretched and added a little to fit it into a 10x10 sector import file for the terrain editor. All the glacier cuts are mine due to having to fit airfields to a set of MA rules from Hitech. I moved it south a bit so I could use summertime trees from that region and not have to create all the glaciers. I actually put some glaciers on Oceania above one of the HQ. The snow tile for AH3 reflects the sun so intensely you cannot look directly at them if the arena is at 12noon.
So you really think I'm interested in your observations atlau when none of you are willing to do this yourselves? The area with tan in the south of this clipboard map file are today's pending work area to create mountain ridges and side cut canyons. The tan defines the glacier cut path which the real Svalbard island is defined and sculpted by them. At Svalbard's latitude, it only has arctic vegetation which if I did that, all the tank guys would be driving on nothing but rock and grass. Now that would be some fine whining here in the forums. I did consider it as an option for awhile since I was hearing so many tankers recently complaining about our tank aces having magical abilities to see them through buildings and hills and dense trees. They all wished Hitech would remove most of the trees and then they would show those tank wizards a thing or two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brTBRk2C/tileset134.jpg)
I laid down the keel for this project on March 4th, this is the base terrain created by the import on 3-4-19, today is 5-16-19. So atlau show me some of your terrains.....
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nps1zVy/tileset51.jpg)
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Bustr I'm a paying customer. I can ask for whatever I want or make suggestions to the developers on ways to enhance gameplay. They can of course choose to ignore it.
Not every thread is about you and your maps or how your squad likes to crush Dickweed bomber missions. Why you take it so personally is beyond me. You come off as a map making martyr in your own mind. (If you want to make maps as a hobby more power to you - and I'll gladly fly and fight in them). I'll spend my unpaid time playing the game or hanging out with my kiddo.
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I think we are now in 2019 and a little less bush nicely trimmed in the right places is always appreciated.
semp
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Bustr I'm a paying customer. I can ask for whatever I want or make suggestions to the developers on ways to enhance gameplay. They can of course choose to ignore it.
Not every thread is about you and your maps or how your squad likes to crush Dickweed bomber missions. Why you take it so personally is beyond me. You come off as a map making martyr in your own mind. (If you want to make maps as a hobby more power to you - and I'll gladly fly and fight in them). I'll spend my unpaid time playing the game or hanging out with my kiddo.
Bustr politely suggested that you take charge of your dreams when, in fact, you've been given the tools by HTC to do so. Now, granted, if you're like me and that skill set seems out of your wheel house and other matters press you can always enlist the aid of someone with the skill and time. Your methodology eludes me. Spending your unpaid time on this forum poking at someone who can and does both make terrains for others to enjoy and enjoys the game without as much need to endlessly nitpick as some seems like it would take from the valuable time of you playing the game and hanging out with said kiddo.
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Arlo if you follow the thread it started with the t34 85 being perked too low based on how good it was in AH3. We identified that part of it was the terrain which features mostly short range engagements thus making a large set of vehicles hangar queens and that it would be a nice addition to gameplay if we had greater variety of terrains to keep things interesting. That is a valid observation regardless of who spends their Sunday afternoons making maps.
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Arlo if you follow the thread it started with the t34 85 being perked too low based on how good it was in AH3. We identified that part of it was the terrain which features mostly short range engagements thus making a large set of vehicles hangar queens and that it would be a nice addition to gameplay if we had greater variety of terrains to keep things interesting. That is a valid observation regardless of who spends their Sunday afternoons making maps.
I follow threads fine. I addressed your latest input in it.
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Arlo then you clearly missed where bustr interjected his latest essay about making maps and that he didnt care about that specific observation despite nobody asking him specifically to make said map.
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Arlo then you clearly missed where bustr interjected his latest essay about making maps and that he didnt care about that specific observation despite nobody asking him specifically to make said map.
What part of "I follow threads fine" confused you? Even your interpretation.
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I think the part you missed was bustr was implying that I wanted him to make a map with a certain feature when I never asked him to make anything.
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I think the part you missed was bustr was implying that I wanted him to make a map with a certain feature when I never asked him to make anything.
Quote:
I dont think anyone is saying there are too many trees. Just that it would be nice to have to be some variety in cover that would lead people to use different tools (tanks) based on the situation. Some desert terrains or open plains, and some forest terrains. Simulating the different environment of ww2.
Once you traipsed down the 'this would be nice' path you opened yourself up to such. Who seems to be missing what (even in their own posts)?
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That was not a request for bustr to do anything. That's the part you missed. This is a wish list thread. I wish for a Corvette does not mean I am asking you to buy me one.
Back on topic from this derail.
1. The t34 85 is very good and its perk cost does not do it justice
2. Terrains that feature more long range combat would allow other tanks to shine and see more use.
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2. Is not the OP topic.
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Either you increase the perk cost or need to provide other avenues for combat so the t34 does not dominate the AH3 ground war. That's just another logical alternative solution to the problem the OP is trying to address.
You really insist in derailing. :bhead
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Either you increase the perk cost or need to provide other avenues for combat so the t34 does not dominate the AH3 ground war. That's just another logical alternative solution to the problem the OP is trying to address.
You really insist in derailing. :bhead
It's not like you're great at keeping the train on the tracks, Tony.
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At least I'm trying to identify solutions to the issue. What are you offering?
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At least I'm trying to identify solutions to the issue. What are you offering?
The perspective that the 'issue' is overblown. This is how opinion works.
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I think we are now in 2019 and a little less bush nicely trimmed in the right places is always appreciated.
semp
Get this man an award for signature of the year.
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Hitech likes data collected from his game.
I created a gunnery range for tanks that allows me to spawn in at 2000yds facing a drone 90deg to it's side on level ground. I tested shooting for the T34\85, Tiger1\2, Panther and Firefly at 2000, 1500 and 1000. I did the same with the PanzerH, T34\76 and M4\76 but only at 2000 and 1500 since 1000 will be pretty obvious. Testing at 1000 was to reach the range the T34\85 could take a Tiger2 with a single Hv or AP round.
Shooter-----Target
2000yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1-----Panther-----Firefly-----T34\85-----T34\76-----PanzerH-----M4\76
Tiger2--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Tiger1--------2AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Panther------2AP--------2AP-------1AP-- ------1AP--------1AP
Firefly--------2AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
T34\85---HvNef\12AP--2Hv\2AP--3Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----2Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef----19Hv\3AP- --2Hv\1AP---13Hv\12AP--6Hv\6AP----5Hv\1AP----6Hv\1Ap
PanzerH------7AP-------2AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
M4\76--------9AP-------4AP------2AP----------1AP--------2AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Shooter-----Target
1500yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1-----Panther-----Firefly-----T34\85-----T34\76-----PanzerH-----M4\76
Tiger2--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Tiger1--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Panther------1AP--------1AP-------1AP-- ------1AP--------1AP
Firefly--------1AP-------1AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
T34\85-----5Hv\2AP--2Hv\1AP---1Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef-----2Hv\2AP- --2Hv\1AP----1Hv\1AP----4Hv\2AP----2Hv\1AP----4Hv\2Ap
PanzerH------3AP-------2AP-------1AP---------1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
M4\76--------5AP-------2AP-------1AP------ --1AP--------1AP--------1AP---------1AP--------1AP
Shooter-----Target
1000yd -----Tiger2-----Tiger1
T34\85-----1Hv\1AP--1Hv\1AP
T34\76---Hv\AP\Noef---Noef
So atlau when did you get off your "opinion" and build a tool to pull a subset of Hitech's game data to introduce into the discussion? You tried to dissemble by moving the goal post and wanting data from other angle shots as though now I had to work the new data set for your vlaidation of my work dismissing the data I presented. You didn't get off your "opinion" and make your own tool, pull that data, and present it to add to the discussion. Small minded and lame like sub discussions at reddit. I to pay $14.95, then back up my opinions with data.
Where is your data Oh mighty opinioned one.....
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No I was just curious since you were presenting all that info. My data regarding perk price is simple. Economics. The t34 is used a lot. It must be used a lot for a good reason. It's a great value at its perk cost. Simple.
Since you have unlimited time, how many 303.rounds does it take to kill a t2?
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So atlau when did you get off your "opinion" and build a tool to pull a subset of Hitech's game data to introduce into the discussion? You tried to dissemble by moving the goal post and wanting data from other angle shots as though now I had to work the new data set for your vlaidation of my work dismissing the data I presented. You didn't get off your "opinion" and make your own tool, pull that data, and present it to add to the discussion. Small minded and lame like sub discussions at reddit. I to pay $14.95, then back up my opinions with data.
Where is your data Oh mighty opinioned one.....
You haven't posted much of an opinion. Especially with regard to the T-34's perk price, or why it's heavily used.
You posted your data table, explained your method without explaining where you see relevance to the current topic, wibbled about how none of us read your table, and then effectively bailed from the discussion.
To be frank, your tables only confirm what is intuitively understood by most; bigger calibers generally do more damage, and damage decreases with range. Granted there may be some use in knowing whether or not you can tank a hit if you know the range of your shooter, but beyond that, it has little practical value.
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Really a piece of data that would be helpful is how many times the T-34-85 is spawned in a month. We know how much they die and how many kills they get, but I bet the spawn rate of them is insanely higher than any other tank.
That eliminates the whole "expert tankers have good runs" argument.
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Mix dawn dishwashing liquid and vinegar with a few ounces of beer and they will spawn better.
OH WAIT..... that helps your grass grow better.
Nevermind.
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My expert tankers are now finding other expert tankers are upping TigerII to ambush them off spawns to deal with their T34\85's. Hitech could just lower the TigerII perk price if there really is a T34\85 plague problem. TigerI are problematic depending on how close anything from the stable with a 75mm or larger can get before taking a shot. TigerII are slow so more showing up off the base just makes for better relations between the tank guys and their friendly local jabo guys. I know my squad will fly a sector with bombs to take out a TigerII for our tank experts. When a TigerII shows up at our airfield, half my squad hops in lancasters filled with carpets until they obliterate the thing. As many trips as it takes while singing bad show tunes and telling your momma jokes about the soon to be wall to walled back to it's home tower. Best Tiger killer in the game is a HurriC with two 500lb bombs.
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Charlie Brown's teacher used to say, "WHAA WHA WHAAA. WHA WHA WHAA."
We will never know what she really said. :D :D :D :D
............ and some of us ordinary gv'er would like to see all of the gv's being used.
Nothing wrong with that.
:salute
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Charlie Brown's teacher used to say, "WHAA WHA WHAAA. WHA WHA WHAA."
We will never know what she really said. :D :D :D :D
............ and some of us ordinary gv'er would like to see all of the gv's being used.
Nothing wrong with that.
:salute
I got killed in a jeep. I almost had that tiger too.
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So atlau when did you get off your "opinion" and build a tool to pull a subset of Hitech's game data to introduce into the discussion? You tried to dissemble by moving the goal post and wanting data from other angle shots as though now I had to work the new data set for your vlaidation of my work dismissing the data I presented. You didn't get off your "opinion" and make your own tool, pull that data, and present it to add to the discussion. Small minded and lame like sub discussions at reddit. I to pay $14.95, then back up my opinions with data.
Where is your data Oh mighty opinioned one.....
I think this data proves my point. with the exception of the Tiger II, inside 2000 yards everything can kill everything else with 1 shot.
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Really a piece of data that would be helpful is how many times the T-34-85 is spawned in a month. We know how much they die and how many kills they get, but I bet the spawn rate of them is insanely higher than any other tank.
That eliminates the whole "expert tankers have good runs" argument.
I'll bet it's a lot.
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I think this data proves my point. with the exception of the Tiger II, inside 2000 yards everything can kill everything else with 1 shot.
Now if we slightly changed the discussion format to what tanks survive better inside 2000 against frontal and oblique frontal shots, atlau could have pulled that data by placing T34\85 in the drone circle at any airfield offline. You just drive out on the runway, set the target to 2000, 1500, 1000 with a T34 frontal or frontal quarter angle to you. Drive at it until it pokes through the target and shoot at it. Record the outcome and present the data back here. It's time consuming versus my tank gunnery range with drones sitting on it.
Many players in these forums are lazy and not worth my spending the time since they don't care about anyone's time but themselves. They just want to get as much out of others as they can greif them for.
I will venture part of the sub 2000 uberness of the T34\85 is it's armor configuration in the 180 degree frontal area. I've shot them in the frontal 180 at 1000 with the 88 on feilds and not killed them with the first shot. Other tanks are more susceptible to the 88 at that range in the frontal 180. Too bad Hitech didn't give us the direct fire reticle for the 88 manned gun. Would make for some interesting range testing.
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The discussion is about the perk price being too low for how good it was relative to other tanks and how much they cost. Not captured by a table simply showing the gun and armor.
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The discussion is about the perk price being too low for how good it was relative to other tanks and how much they cost. Not captured by a table simply showing the gun and armor.
I suppose that's supposed to mean that anything somewhat related to the topic at hand doesn't count unless it is something that agrees with the OP.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
:salute
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
:salute
Who 'hijacked' the topic? Discussion of whether the T-34 is overpowered versus other tanks in a typical AH setting (instead of just used more) appears to be quite on topic.
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I suppose that's supposed to mean that anything somewhat related to the topic at hand doesn't count unless it is something that agrees with the OP.
Not at all. However the 1 dimensional table that compares number of hits to kill at different ranges is only 1 of many variables. Bustr got his panties in a wad when I asked about side shots since some tanks like the panther do worse compared to the t34 on the side.
Honestly when I go bombarding it really doesn't matter what they are in.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
:salute
#5
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Not at all. However the 1 dimensional table that compares number of hits to kill at different ranges is only 1 of many variables. Bustr got his panties in a wad when I asked about side shots since some tanks like the panther do worse compared to the t34 on the side.
Honestly when I go bombarding it really doesn't matter what they are in.
One might wanna see to their one wadded panties. ;)
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The problem with this audience is none of it wants to show Hitech they are invested in their suppositions and anecdotal observations to pull his data out of the game. Hitech programed the T34\85 and knows it better than any of us to what will happen when it's armor receives rounds at all ranges and angles. For 17 years now I have witnessed him work with players who were willing to go the extra yard and present his data in some manner to then suggest changes they think will enhance the game for all of his customers.
So far the purse swingers in this audience only want to bang keys and use allusions to their gamey experience as a substitute to pulling data sets and analyzing them for Hitech towards the change they are proposing.
One observation Luche has verified is the majority of tanks being driven by GV players is the T34\85. I tested the T34\85 against T34\85 at 2000, 1500, 1000 at quarter angle frontal shots and direct frontal shots. Only the 88 at 2000 can kill the T34\85 with less than 3 shots. At 2000 the T34\85 AP and HVAP take up to 9 hits. At 1500 up to 5 and 1000 1 shot. If almost everyone is driving a T34\85 and knowing this data, it's easy to assume the T34\85 is equal to a Tiger and needs a hefty perk increase. Results were similar with other main guns. I verified my findings with my squad uber tankers and their T34 v T34 experiences matched as I described my range shooting session.
So, reduce the perk on the Tiger family or, specify, due to it's armor configuration and shooting test results, to increase the perk on the T34\85 since most combat in the MA is 1000-2000yds.
Most of this audience is lazy when it comes to these things and more interested in purse fights and faux outrage than presenting tangible data for Hitech. Just becasue your observations and my testing have some commonality, Hitech wants data and not anecdotal excerpts from your game play. If that were the case, the MA would be full of 1946 rides and Maro Bros. airborne powerups with lead computing death rays at your fingertips. Being good at piu,piu,piu is not the same is taking the time to find a way to pull Hitech's data sets from the game. He seems to like that kind of commitment to your position on game issues.
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Dude I'm not saying it's not modelled accurately. (I think most people agree). just that it's a damn good tank and worthy of a higher eny/perk cost.
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Geez, look at the mutual respect and manners damned near boiling over suddenly (or as close as some can manage). :D
:banana:
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Lower the perk cost of the Tiger 1 and Panther G to be equal to the T-34/85.
Let us see if we see as many T-34/85’s running around in the Melee Arena.
While we are at we can remove the perk cost from the Firefly and M-18 so they are free.
Looks like we need range data on these tanks as well. :D :D :D :D
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You can place 6 tanks as drones in the offline circle. Just drive your lazy kester out and do the testing. Use BowlMA and off the end of most runways is a mile of flat ground and grass. Pull up the target to the range you want and drive it to sit on the drone you want to shoot at.
I have bigger fish to fry for this weekend.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhVrjzBp/tileset139.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Nms33x/tileset140.jpg)
It all started from this, so an hour or so if you really want to show Hitech data shouldn't be beyond you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nps1zVy/tileset51.jpg)
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It would be interesting to make the jagpanzer, m4 76, m18, and Firefly free. I dont think wed see much of a dent in the t34s usage or dominance.
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#5
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/789/1*HaxZCrfe_MId-ZOZ0zIaWw.jpeg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/789/1*HaxZCrfe_MId-ZOZ0zIaWw.jpeg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Exactly... :rofl :rofl :rofl
That is why I said 5 and nothing else. :D
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Much as I hate admitting the blowhard has a point, the T-34 DOES become quite resistant to damage when angled properly.
I the glacis angled at 40degrees has something in the realm of 125mm at LOS.
Though I would advocate reducing the rest of the perk prices.
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Not sure if reducing the rest of the perk prices would be good...tanks such as the Tiger and Panther were much more rare, but I understand the system isn't meant to take into account rarity. If you reduce the perk of those to that of the T-34-85, I'd bet more Tigers and Panthers would be used...whether that is a good or bad thing, who knows.
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...whether that is a good or bad thing, who knows.
Bad thing. Bad bad. Up the perk cost of all heavies and model some lights. :D
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xg1QMxRvL._SX425_.jpg)
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB19kotKpXXXXbXaXXXq6xXFXXXz/Free-Shipping-6767-1-35-WWII-Japanese-Type-95-Light-Tank-Model-Tank.jpg)
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Bad thing. Bad bad. Up the perk cost of all heavies and model some lights.
For those of mature age: This was one of SPI's first "simultaneous move" board games - Kampfpanzer, it was called. Very Early War light tanks.
If memory serves, the BT7 ruled. But it was a very fun game, battle of the dancing midgets.
- oldman
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More fast light tank battles would make the current gv game more interesting and dynamic I think.
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More fast light tank battles would make the current gv game more interesting and dynamic I think.
Thank you. (And I freely admit I veered off topic.)
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The problem with this audience is none of it wants to show Hitech they are invested in their suppositions and anecdotal observations to pull his data out of the game. Hitech programed the T34\85 and knows it better than any of us to what will happen when it's armor receives rounds at all ranges and angles. For 17 years now I have witnessed him work with players who were willing to go the extra yard and present his data in some manner to then suggest changes they think will enhance the game for all of his customers.
So far the purse swingers in this audience only want to bang keys and use allusions to their gamey experience as a substitute to pulling data sets and analyzing them for Hitech towards the change they are proposing.
One observation Luche has verified is the majority of tanks being driven by GV players is the T34\85. I tested the T34\85 against T34\85 at 2000, 1500, 1000 at quarter angle frontal shots and direct frontal shots. Only the 88 at 2000 can kill the T34\85 with less than 3 shots. At 2000 the T34\85 AP and HVAP take up to 9 hits. At 1500 up to 5 and 1000 1 shot. If almost everyone is driving a T34\85 and knowing this data, it's easy to assume the T34\85 is equal to a Tiger and needs a hefty perk increase. Results were similar with other main guns. I verified my findings with my squad uber tankers and their T34 v T34 experiences matched as I described my range shooting session.
So, reduce the perk on the Tiger family or, specify, due to it's armor configuration and shooting test results, to increase the perk on the T34\85 since most combat in the MA is 1000-2000yds.
Most of this audience is lazy when it comes to these things and more interested in purse fights and faux outrage than presenting tangible data for Hitech. Just becasue your observations and my testing have some commonality, Hitech wants data and not anecdotal excerpts from your game play. If that were the case, the MA would be full of 1946 rides and Maro Bros. airborne powerups with lead computing death rays at your fingertips. Being good at piu,piu,piu is not the same is taking the time to find a way to pull Hitech's data sets from the game. He seems to like that kind of commitment to your position on game issues.
Perks don't need to be changed because the use of T-34/85s is not a problem. Fights are not boring because there are too many t-34s. If you raise the perks on T-34, there will be less use of T-34s and the fights will all be exactly the same. So don't bother. :salute
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If we were all limited to spit 16s the fights wouldn't be boring either.
Less t34 85s (due to perk cost) would actually increase the number of panzers and m4s on the field and therefore m18s (speed advantage even more noticeable) and m8s (cannon actually semi effective against them) would also be more viable options and I think would make the game more dynamic.
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If we were all limited to spit 16s the fights wouldn't be boring either.
Less t34 85s (due to perk cost) would actually increase the number of panzers and m4s on the field and therefore m18s (speed advantage even more noticeable) and m8s (cannon actually semi effective against them) would also be more viable options and I think would make the game more dynamic.
I agree. More diversity. Additionally, lowering the cost of the Tiger/Panther would just lead to all T-34-85s, Tigers, and Panthers, rendering all the other tanks quite useless.
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It would not make the M-8 useless. I have killed lots of Panthers and Tigers 1's with the M-8. Just ask Kenai77 how dangerous a M-8 can be.
One night I was just about to finish off his Tiger 1 and my buddy Bannor showed up at the last second with a jeep and dropped a box of supps. I only needed one more shot to finish him off. :D
The GV part of AH would be allot more fun if we see all the GV's in use. Nothing wrong with fine tuning the perk allocations.
:salute
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Mano not everyone is as crazy as you!
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Mano not everyone is as crazy as you!
This begs repeating. :rofl
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Here, this should bring out the hanger queens. I've finished building the world and now I'm laying down all the feilds and creating the tank micro terrain. The terrain features that sparse tree tile for everywhere tanks will do combat. Shades of AH2................... :O
Oh! there is a TigerII in there somewhere and from those near bluffs, in some cases it was a 1 shot kill while not in a member of the Tiger family. Speed will probably become a winning attribute with all the space between tree clumps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv93kptR/tileset189.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/prTTgJJ2/tileset190.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbV6sPm2/tileset191.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V64vGVMG/tileset193.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jctNPSY/tileset197.jpg)
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That looks pretty impressive Bustr. Keeping the fighter pilots, pt boaters, buff guys, and gv’ers happy is not an easy task. :D
:salute
Mano not everyone is as crazy as you!
Not counting the Tiger 2, the T34/85 is the hardest gv to kill with the M8. The fast turret only allows you time for 2 shots before the t34 driver shoots you. It takes three shots. The other way to kill one is to get behind them and pop their turret with a shot at very close range, then drive away until their pintle runs out of ammo. The really good t34 drivers do not let you get behind them. The M-8 does best when the attack is a total surprise.
My point? There are too many T-34/85 drivers at this particular time. It would be nice to see a bigger variety of gv’s being used.
:salute
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Here is the work map for my next few days. I did the tank pit in the center you saw in those screen shots to work out how I'll do the micro terrain tile painting at the rest of the spawns. This is the mapping for all feilds, ports, vbases, strat and spawns. Becasue of the irregular landmass shape, each country has a unique strategic weakness. Yes, each country has a spawn from an uncapturable field onto a high overlook to it's vbase in the tank combat pit. So you can drop HE from elevation onto the vbase and take it back asap to keep the pit going. I got tired of logging in to to see the TT on my other terrains captured and out of play for tank furballers because the local feilds were easy to capture by single players late at night. That empty center is 2 sectors in diameter. A sector and a half flight just to pitch a few bombs at tanks or at a 1x1 vbase with 4 hangers supported by wirbles is I hope boring enough to leave the GVers alone. Most of the ridges are 2000-5000ft high.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvrhjW5S/tileset200.jpg)
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Agree on way too many T34s, its the only logical tank to use 100% of the time. Great gun, great speed, good armor against aircraft, good AA capability. You cant lose perks even if its the only perk tank you use since its so cheap.
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Looks great Bustr. One more thought was that Trees with Canopies high off the ground provide some cover from planes, but not hiding places for Tank vs Tank. Eliminate the bushes and shrubs that he ambush tankers hide in. A run & Gun map will but value on the diverse attributes of the tanks set, leading to more variety on the field of battle. :salute