Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: W7LPNRICK on December 16, 2009, 08:33:03 PM
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Showing war in the pacific. Navy SBD's escorted by USM F-4F wildcats against Japanese KI-43 Oscars, P float planes, & KI-72 bombers. Were these Japanese planes common? Any plans for float planes like Japanese "P" or USN PBY? They Claimed the Oscars were very maneuverable. It did well against the F-4F.
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The point of this thread?
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Were these Japanese planes common? They Claimed the Oscars were very maneuverable. It did well against the F-4F.
The Ki 43 was the main aircraft of the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force early in the war. It was basically their counterpart the Navy's A6M. It was very light and maneuverable (more so than the A6M I think) at the cost of being very fragile and having a very light armament (two 7mm or 12.7mm machine guns depending on the variant IIRC).
I've not heard of the Ki 72. I think the most common Japanese bomber of the earlier period was the IJN's G4M Betty.
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Oscars (Ki-43) were basically the IJAF's version of the IJNAF's Zero. Are you sure they said Ki-72? If they did, they were incorrect, as far as I recall, the Ki-72 was a proposed updated version of the Ki-36 Ida with a more powerful 600hp Hitachi Ha-38 and retractable landing gear but no examples were built. The Japanese fielded numerous float planes, I think the Aichi E13A (Jake) was probably their most numerous design but not sure.
ack-ack
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He may be thinking Ki-27?
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Yes I think KI-27 not taking notes. My hearing is shot too. I thought they referred to the float plane as a "P-Float Plane...? They also said the "Oscar" had a cannon, was indeed fragile, & in a head to head with the F-4F would be blown to pieces, touting the Wildcat's armor. I wounder how they could go head to head against a cannon and survive. Oh, point of this thread...discussion, OK with you Fudgums?
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Yes I think KI-27 not taking notes. My hearing is shot too. I thought they referred to the float plane as a "P-Float Plane...? They also said the "Oscar" had a cannon, was indeed fragile, & in a head to head with the F-4F would be blown to pieces, touting the Wildcat's armor. I wounder how they could go head to head against a cannon and survive. Oh, point of this thread...discussion, OK with you Fudgums?
Don't think the Oscar (Ki-43) had cannons, thought it only had a couple of 12.7 mm mounted in the cowl but not quite sure.
ack-ack
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The Oscar is definatly on the list of "high production planes still missing in the planeset" which imho should move it quite high on the prio list for comming planes.
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Don't think the Oscar (Ki-43) had cannons, thought it only had a couple of 12.7 mm mounted in the cowl but not quite sure.
ack-ack
KI-43-I had two 7.7 mm machine guns. KI-43-II had two 12.7 mm machine guns, an optical gunsight and a little bit of armor protection for the pilot. In 1944, they intro'd the KI-43 III with a more powerful engine, but it appeared that the guns remained the same. (P-40 Warhawk vs KI-43 Oscar, Osprey Book)
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I thought they referred to the float plane as a "P-Float Plane...?
Pete possibly? Mitsubishi F1M
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Could be. I remember they said the float plane was a mitsubishi
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anyone remeber that episode of dogfights when they said p-51 was armed wit 6 50mm guns? or was that some other documentary? :D
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Could be. I remember they said the float plane was a mitsubishi
This is probabaly the plane they were referring to.
(http://www.avionslegendaires.net/Images/Gf1m.jpg)
ZOOM ZOOM!
ack-ack
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I had this episode about Guadalcanal on Netflix Roku so I played it again & took notes. :salute The Float plane was a F1M Mitsubishi w/ 2x 7.7mm forward guns and a single 7.7mm in the rear seat. As someone said the Oscar had 2x 12.7mm guns. The clip about head to head with an F4F was against an A6M3 Zero. In this episode the army was using P-400 & SBD's escorted by F4F's to hit the "Tokyo Express" shipping lines coming thru the corridor to Guadalcanal. :airplane:
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I would think that it would be the A6M2N 'Rufe'....
Made by Nakajima, but it's the History Channel so... :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/A6N2-N_Rufe.jpg)
Ah nvm
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This is probabaly the plane they were referring to.
(http://www.avionslegendaires.net/Images/Gf1m.jpg)
ZOOM ZOOM!
ack-ack
Yup! That's it. :rock
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:banana: duplicate post
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:banana: duplicate post
First one I have seen since Skuzzy's work the other day.
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First one I have seen since Skuzzy's work the other day.
Work??? Probably was like a vacation for him not having to play baby-sitter. :)
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Work??? Probably was like a vacation for him not having to play baby-sitter. :)
HA... yup looking at it that way he figured it was a few hours of posts he did not have to police.
I've only had a couple of small hiccups since the maintenance though. Much better now.
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anyone remeber that episode of dogfights when they said p-51 was armed wit 6 50mm guns? or was that some other documentary? :D
I'm sorry, but that version of the P-51 would defintely have to be perked. :huh
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"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.
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"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.
A lot of it isn't necessarily that they didn't check facts, it's that the transfer from research to script writer to narrator often gets messed up. Also, imagine reading 7.7mm 12.7mm then jumping to 50cal; probably pretty easy to misspeak something like that.
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That's no excuse. A narrator is a professional (or, should be) and they're responsible for speaking clearly and understanding the terms they're reading. I've seen good ones at work, and they ask questions before they go in front of the mic and then knock it stiff with one take. It's likely that the writers had the mistakes in the copy, and the narrator just dutifully read them.
You'd think the writer or historian would know that 12.7mm = .50 cal, and be knowledgeable on the various aircraft and their capabilities. They simply get it wrong from time to time, that's all.
And it's not just this show... I've seen others on History Channel where they get things wrong, particularly in the gun packages.
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The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.
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The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.
That was Old 666, which much to the surprise of the Japanese that day, was the most heavily armed B-17 in the Pacific with no less than 19 .50 cal machine guns, including a pair that was able to be fired by the pilot. They placed machine guns all over the place, including in spots where they didn't need any coverage. They also stored replacement machine guns in the plane so if one gun jammed they could dump it and replace it with one of the spares.
On a side note, for those that think that heavy bombers never flew NOE, Old 666 made a bomb run on a Japanese carrier and was only 50ft above the carriers deck when it flew over. In another raid, this time a day time raid over Rabuel, Old 666 was so low that it came home with branches from the tree tops it skimmed over stuck in various areas on the bomber's belly and the ball turret had one of the glass panes cracked from a tree strike on that mission. On a night time attack on Wewak, Old 666 dove on and strafed the searchlights the Japanese used to locate the attacking bombers.
Sadly, not even the book that I have about the 5th AF has any pictures of Old 666 and can't seem to locate any at all searching the Intertardnet.
One another interesting side note, no one wanted to fly with Lt. Col Zeamer, that's why before Old 666, he didn't have an assigned plane or crew and was considered a "pilot at large" but was never actually a pilot. In fact, he was the most senior non pilot in the bomber group. He never passed the checks to move from the co-pilot seat to the pilot seat, he failed on each attempt when he was assigned to the 22nd BG flying B-26s. Pilots hated to have him in the co-pilot seat and was soon transferred out of the 22nd because of this. When he was transferred to the 43rd BG, he as given odd jobs, when a crew was short he'd fill in but never as pilot. It wasn't until a friend of his, Captain McCullar, took Zeamer under his wing and allowed him to join his crew sometimes as navigator and co-pilot. For some reason, flying with McCullar really clicked with Zeamer and studying what McCullar did in the cockpit during some pretty harrowing missions. After a handful of missions with McCullar's crew, Zeamer was finally ready to get a plane and crew of his own. It was also McCullar that inspired Zeamer to outfit his bomber with all of those guns and the pilot operated guns also came from McCullan who had his own B-17 outfitted the same way. After Zeamer got his own plane and crew and after the mission where he was attacked by all of those Zekes, he became widely known as one of the first and very few that would fly their heavy bombers like fighters.
ack-ack
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Showing war in the pacific. Navy SBD's escorted by USM F-4F wildcats against Japanese KI-43 Oscars, P float planes, & KI-72 bombers. Were these Japanese planes common? Any plans for float planes like Japanese "P" or USN PBY? They Claimed the Oscars were very maneuverable. It did well against the F-4F.
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
Wait.... Let me guess.....
They did Head on.
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"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.
And Remember. You almost always getting only one side of the story.
I'd love to see them do a few shows featuring German and Jap. pilots.
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The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.
I seem to remember the end of an old WWII movie that ended that way. Or something similar
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Numerous reports of the plane sustaining heavy battle damage, with engines missing, parts being blown away and even mid-air collisions and yet returning her crews home safely have all added to the legendary status of the B-17. In June of 1943 in the Pacific, a B-17 named Old 666 was attacked by 17 Japanese Zero fighters and in a running battle survived, downing four of the attacking fighters. For their courage and bravery, the entire crew was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross while her captain and another crewmember received the country’s highest award, The Congressional Medal of Honor. During the course of the war, a total of 17 Medal of Honor’s were awarded to crewmembers of B-17s.
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Ack Ack you seem to know a lot about planes <S>
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And Remember. You're almost always getting only one side of the story.
I'd love to see them do a few shows featuring German and Jap. pilots.
+1.
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you have to take everything you see on history channel with a grain of salt. their fact checking and film to naration matchups is NOT 100%.
I have seen episodes about a specific AC have every film clip in it about every AC BUT the one the guy is talking about.
even when they match the right plane they dont always match the type.
an episode about P47s had a clip where the guy was talking about the P47Ns entering the PTO and they had a clip of a razorback Jug up.
someone in chargere there just doesnt care as long as the time is filled.
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That was Old 666, which much to the surprise of the Japanese that day, was the most heavily armed B-17 in the Pacific with no less than 19 .50 cal machine guns, including a pair that was able to be fired by the pilot. They placed machine guns all over the place, including in spots where they didn't need any coverage. They also stored replacement machine guns in the plane so if one gun jammed they could dump it and replace it with one of the spares.
On a side note, for those that think that heavy bombers never flew NOE, Old 666 made a bomb run on a Japanese carrier and was only 50ft above the carriers deck when it flew over. In another raid, this time a day time raid over Rabuel, Old 666 was so low that it came home with branches from the tree tops it skimmed over stuck in various areas on the bomber's belly and the ball turret had one of the glass panes cracked from a tree strike on that mission. On a night time attack on Wewak, Old 666 dove on and strafed the searchlights the Japanese used to locate the attacking bombers.
Sadly, not even the book that I have about the 5th AF has any pictures of Old 666 and can't seem to locate any at all searching the Intertardnet.
One another interesting side note, no one wanted to fly with Lt. Col Zeamer, that's why before Old 666, he didn't have an assigned plane or crew and was considered a "pilot at large" but was never actually a pilot. In fact, he was the most senior non pilot in the bomber group. He never passed the checks to move from the co-pilot seat to the pilot seat, he failed on each attempt when he was assigned to the 22nd BG flying B-26s. Pilots hated to have him in the co-pilot seat and was soon transferred out of the 22nd because of this. When he was transferred to the 43rd BG, he as given odd jobs, when a crew was short he'd fill in but never as pilot. It wasn't until a friend of his, Captain McCullar, took Zeamer under his wing and allowed him to join his crew sometimes as navigator and co-pilot. For some reason, flying with McCullar really clicked with Zeamer and studying what McCullar did in the cockpit during some pretty harrowing missions. After a handful of missions with McCullar's crew, Zeamer was finally ready to get a plane and crew of his own. It was also McCullar that inspired Zeamer to outfit his bomber with all of those guns and the pilot operated guns also came from McCullan who had his own B-17 outfitted the same way. After Zeamer got his own plane and crew and after the mission where he was attacked by all of those Zekes, he became widely known as one of the first and very few that would fly their heavy bombers like fighters.
ack-ack
The History channel had a picture of the 666 which they showed on the ground with the crew in front. Maybe check Histroychannel.com? :airplane:
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you have to take everything you see on history channel with a grain of salt. their fact checking and film to naration matchups is NOT 100%.
I have seen episodes about a specific AC have every film clip in it about every AC BUT the one the guy is talking about.
even when they match the right plane they dont always match the type.
an episode about P47s had a clip where the guy was talking about the P47Ns entering the PTO and they had a clip of a razorback Jug up.
someone in chargere there just doesnt care as long as the time is filled.
I've noticed this especially when they are talking about Zeroes. It seems like any plane with a meatball on the wing is good enough for filling in time. I can see someone who doesn't know any better confusing the KI-43 and the A6M, but calling Vals and Kates Zeroes?
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I liked it when they compared the performance of the 109E-4 to the P-51D. :banana:
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Ack Ack you seem to know a lot about planes <S>
Bombers only
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Bombers only
THE P-38 IS NOT A BOMBER! /stomp feet
ack-ack
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Just seems like one when it's filling your gunsight.... :D
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"THE P-38 IS NOT A BOMBER! /stomp feet"
Some P-38s were flown as bombers. The lead P-38 was fitted with a 'glass' nose, carried a bombardier and a Norden sight, and was known as a 'Droop Snoot'. The P-38s flying formation on him released their bombs when they saw his go, the same 'drop on the lead bomber's signal' procedure as used by the big boys.
The last place I'd look for historical veracity would be the History and Discovery channels; the commentary is all too often uninformed, inaccurate, 'gung-ho' drivel and the film editors haven't a clue.
:cool:
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Simba; he was kidding :)
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"THE P-38 IS NOT A BOMBER! /stomp feet"
Some P-38s were flown as bombers. The lead P-38 was fitted with a 'glass' nose, carried a bombardier and a Norden sight, and was known as a 'Droop Snoot'. The P-38s flying formation on him released their bombs when they saw his go, the same 'drop on the lead bomber's signal' procedure as used by the big boys.
The last place I'd look for historical veracity would be the History and Discovery channels; the commentary is all too often uninformed, inaccurate, 'gung-ho' drivel and the film editors haven't a clue.
:cool:
I have to agree with you on what I've recently seen on the history channel. If you believed them the best fighters ever built were the F4F, P-47, and later (Viet Nam)the F-8. No doubt they helped the war effort by the shear numbers that were manufactured & the pilots blood spilt flying them. In the mid 70's the F/A-8 was well respected as a light Ftr/Bomber/Attack platform, but no where near the best fighter around. Of course I was a 17 year old airman in S.E.A. with my own view on things.
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I thought the P-38 was a modified A-20 with twinbooms instead of a single tail piece.
:noid
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I thought the P-38 was a modified A-20 with twinbooms instead of a single tail piece.
:noid
:mad: :mad:
ack-ack