Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on April 15, 2018, 11:40:02 PM
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Gang, I stole a page from Oboe's book and have been working on a P-51 that is only NMF and basic markings. That way I have a base to work with and then can update all my other stuff to it with minor tweaks.
The first Mustang I intend to use it on is the 352nd FG skin, "DOPIE OKIE" that I adopted. It has a couple of blue shades on the nose and I would like to know what the correct color should be. Shreenshots would be appreicated as well as the numbers you guys always provide. I have still not figured out interpretation.
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-PKNdJ-Wqx0c%2FU8D4LqgwybI%2FAAAAAAAABHM%2FJFpmvejAdNQ%2Fs1600%2FPhoto%2B8%2Bblog.PNG&f=1)
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Do you have any other pics of the plane?
That reference pic makes things very difficult to judge as the Insignia Blue seems too light and nearly matches the blue on the nose.
I'd say start with a shade of blue similar to the header of that pic as your darker blue on the nose and use a lighter shade like on "Cripes A Mighty 3rd" for the replacement panels.
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http://wingstracksguns.com/picture-gallery/historic-pictures/american-aircraft/fighters/north-american-p-51-mustang/
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=05658
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=05661
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=05739
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=12114
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=09083
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=09084
http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=12116
http://www.californiawarbirds.org/p51_historic.php
https://airforce.togetherweserved.com/usaf/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=AssignmentExt&ID=224301
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Good stuff, Lyric, thanks.
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Do you have any other pics of the plane?
That reference pic makes things very difficult to judge as the Insignia Blue seems too light and nearly matches the blue on the nose.
I'd say start with a shade of blue similar to the header of that pic as your darker blue on the nose and use a lighter shade like on "Cripes A Mighty 3rd" for the replacement panels.
(http://wingstracksguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/p-51d-mustang-dopey-okie-44-14955.jpg)
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(http://wingstracksguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/p-51d-mustang-dopey-okie-44-14955.jpg)
That's the same photo as the first one, just without the border.
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That's the same photo as the first one, just without the border.
It's a different shade of gray I believe. It's the only one that I can find of the airplane anywhere.
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I've always wondered about the colored aviation paint used by the AAF squadrons after they received and customized their aircraft. Is the colored paint AAF issue or, was it all sourced from the RAF locally? The AAF seemed to go with a standard issue pallet while the RAF had many shades of primary colors. Until 1944 all AAF fighters used for escort and other direct fighter to fighter combat used the british MKII gunsight for the 100Mill ring. AAF gunsights until 44 were 70Mil ring. So I've been curious about the paint.
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Try something in the Azure range
RGB: 0, 127, 255
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Try something in the Azure range
RGB: 0, 127, 255
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That will be far too bright
I took that and darkened and desaturated it. Try RGB 33,89,146 and adjust for taste.
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Bright yes, but it’s a good starting point.
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The blue changed as is evident in photos. Some from fading, but also due to the paint choice. In “Bluenoser’s Tales” by Punchy Powell there is a chapter on it. I’ll dig it out when I get a chance later.
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Also a good read on paint:
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_us.htm (http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_us.htm)
And
https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/intro3.shtml (https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/intro3.shtml)
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Thanks all. I will keep at it.
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And here is an ANA standard to RGB converter
https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp (https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp)
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Here is another guide:
https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_table.shtml (https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_table.shtml)
https://www.cybermodeler.com/resource6.shtml (https://www.cybermodeler.com/resource6.shtml)
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Excellent. Thank you kindly... :salute
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You’re welcome
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The blue changed as is evident in photos. Some from fading, but also due to the paint choice. In “Bluenoser’s Tales” by Punchy Powell there is a chapter on it. I’ll dig it out when I get a chance later.
I think part of the cowling was painted over in order to add the DOPEY OKIE nose art. I don't have any history on the airplane to tell me if it had another name before.
Which brings me to the next question... What was the base color they used for this? Insignia blue or true blue? Something else?
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Which brings me to the next question... What was the base color they used for this? Insignia blue or true blue? Something else?
True Blue seems close to what is seen in most of the color reference photos Lyric posted. Start there.
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True Blue seems close to what is seen in most of the color reference photos Lyric posted. Start there.
First try... All I'm looking at here is the blue shade. There is nothing else that is close to finished yet.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29509)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29511)
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Looks too bold to me. Try desaturating the color (gray out) then darken it to get a similar, yet duller, tone of blue.
For example, the RGB 1943 and later True Blue is RGB 0,92,136. It seems very close to what you used.
I modified it to RGB 28,88,123
(https://s6.postimg.cc/3v96ch35t/True_Blues.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
True Blue(1943) on top and my adjusted color on bottom.
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I'll try it. Thanks!
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According to the 352nd historian Sam Sox, the blue has been match to two different remnants of wartime paint. It’s RAF Deep Sky Blue, and was from British sources
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According to the 352nd historian Sam Sox, the blue has been match to two different remnants of wartime paint. It’s RAF Deep Sky Blue, and was from British sources
That's great!
Thanks Dan.
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I took the RGB value from this source: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/colourcharts/Digital%20RAF%20WW2%20Colours.pdf
(https://s6.postimg.cc/7t11ficr5/True_Blues_2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
RAF Deep Blue Sky RGB 46,110,146 is the top sample.
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According to the 352nd historian Sam Sox, the blue has been match to two different remnants of wartime paint. It’s RAF Deep Sky Blue, and was from British sources
Much appreciated.
I took the RGB value from this source: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/colourcharts/Digital%20RAF%20WW2%20Colours.pdf
https://postimages.org/][img]https://s6.postimg.cc/7t11ficr5/True_Blues_2.jpg
RAF Deep Blue Sky RGB 46,110,146 is the top sample.
That bright????????????????????? Wow. That's amazing. How is it everyone has it as something approaching a royal blue or dark blue?
Thanks man. I will try that.
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Here it is now...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29513)
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That bright????????????????????? Wow. That's amazing. How is it everyone has it as something approaching a royal blue or dark blue?
Thanks man. I will try that.
I've seen representations of Preddy's "Cripes A Mighty 3rd" that is very close to that shade, but most others look to be darker.
Googleing "RAF Deep Sky" comes up with other darker mixes - some much darker.
http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/05/16/british-ww2-colors/
http://avionsenkits172.blogspot.com/2014/06/les-mustangs-au-nez-bleu-du-352nd-fg_15.html I like this one
Also, there's a post on SimHQ saying that the 352nd switched to RAF Deep Sky from Medium Blue in the autumn 1944 because it was darker. Explains why Preddy's bird is usually lighter.
EDIT:
Here it is now...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29513)
Yeah, that looks much too light compared to reference photos. Try the sample in link #2. RGB 0,69,109
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Can I darken this one?
Anyone like Lyric1 have a date for the photo I posted?
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From the second link...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29515)
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How about this?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29517)
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That's not RGB 0,69,109 is it? that should give a shade darker than any other in my examples.
Here it is on top
(https://s6.postimg.cc/6taqju069/True_Blues_3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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This?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29521)
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wow, it is still that light?
it's closer to what I'd go with. I'd try to match this as close as you can get: http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=05658
Maybe you will have luck with the sample from this link.
http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/05/16/british-ww2-colors/
It looks too dark there, but it may look right in the game.
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Dug out all the 352nd books and got the scanner going as well as Illustrator and Photoshop. The following is all with the preface that I think we are way over thinking this. Clearly the blue changed via different paint, weathering, sun etc and in the end it all comes down to what looks good :)
First, from "Bluenosers Tales" The story of matching the later blue paint.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/blue1_zps4plu2mvr.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/blue1_zps4plu2mvr.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Blue2_zpsodvokdpc.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Blue2_zpsodvokdpc.jpg.html)
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Note the comment that as part of Lend Lease the British were to supply paint to meet US requirements.
Now some color shots of 352nd birds. Clearly weathered, lighter blue, darker blue etc.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Blue3_zpsy98u1jxb.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Blue3_zpsy98u1jxb.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Blue4_zpsnndhmxed.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Blue4_zpsnndhmxed.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Snoops_zpsrhoskdmh.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Snoops_zpsrhoskdmh.jpg.html)
I couldn't get the scan on this any better, but it's the 51 you are doing. It clearly shows two shades of blue where they had overpainted with a darker blue but left the section with the name unpainted and still on the earlier lighter blue. Kinda gives you some freedom to play with it and still be right.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Blue5_zpsuuvipb7x.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Blue5_zpsuuvipb7x.jpg.html)
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I took the CMYK codes for RAF Blue that may have been used and put them on a Mustang nose.
The lighter blue which is Deep Sky. Seems close to the photos of the lighter blue painted 51s
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/DeepSky_zpsxybtzbyk.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/DeepSky_zpsxybtzbyk.jpg.html)
This is Oxford Blue, another RAF color
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/OxfordBlue_zpsbmggzgqi.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/OxfordBlue_zpsbmggzgqi.jpg.html)
Interesting that this one looks good to me. Roundel Blue
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/RoundelBlue_zpspopbspty.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/RoundelBlue_zpspopbspty.jpg.html)
This is Royal Blue.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/RoyalBlue_zpsbvnm71vr.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/RoyalBlue_zpsbvnm71vr.jpg.html)
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Guppy, I think that may answer some of the mystery as to the different paint colors on some of those P-51s. I've seen another one other than DOPEY OKIE that had the darker color repaint.
In your color profiles, which one would be best???
Devil??
Looks like Oxford or Roundel painted over Sky, with Sky remaining around the nose art.
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Can I darken this one?
Anyone like Lyric1 have a date for the photo I posted?
Face book is your friend.
(https://i.imgur.com/TJ2baJ4.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/dowiuc.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2lthxcl.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2guzbzq.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/idvsk9.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/nyv6fl.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/333bm1x.jpg)
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:aok :cheers:
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Guppy, I think that may answer some of the mystery as to the different paint colors on some of those P-51s. I've seen another one other than DOPEY OKIE that had the darker color repaint.
In your color profiles, which one would be best???
Devil??
Looks like Oxford or Roundel painted over Sky, with Sky remaining around the nose art.
If it's early 352 I'd go with Deep Sky. if it's late I'd go with Roundel Blue. They just look best to me of the 4 RAF Blues
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Roundel Blue overpaint of Deep Sky. looks close to me.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/12th%20Air%20Force%20Scenario/Dopey_zpsbfxnwepf.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/12th%20Air%20Force%20Scenario/Dopey_zpsbfxnwepf.jpg.html)
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Roundel Blue overpaint of Deep Sky. looks close to me.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/12th%20Air%20Force%20Scenario/Dopey_zpsbfxnwepf.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/12th%20Air%20Force%20Scenario/Dopey_zpsbfxnwepf.jpg.html)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
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Sounds good to me. I'll try it. Thanks guys.
:salute
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Note the comment that as part of Lend Lease the British were to supply paint to meet US requirements.
Thank you Guppy for the round about answer to my question. And Like I pointed out, all AAF fighters used the British MKII gunsight that flew fighter v fighter missions. You can see the MKII in both of these P51B. Only starting with the P47-D20, was shipping with the MK8 untill 45 when they were updated with the Mk14 and the P51D came with the MK14 in 44. The P51B\C was never fitted with the N9 like ours becasue the mounting required too much cutting and refitting of the instrument panel. P51-B\C were shipped to England with the N3 and all refitted with British MKII at the reassembly depots along with P47-D model earlier than the 20 series. Our D-11 should have a MKII british gunsight. Meh, we have an F4u-1 with an early prototype gunsight used only by training units that was completely replaced with the MK8 by the time the F4u-1 made it's first combat sortie in the Pacific.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/nyv6fl.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2Bigweek/Snoops_zpsrhoskdmh.jpg)
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Interesting observations, bustr.
Here's the latest color test.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29542)
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Both shaded still look far too bold. You're going to need to make custom mixes to dull and darken the blues.
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Both shaded still look far too bold. You're going to need to make custom mixes to dull and darken the blues.
So I am basically eyeballing it?
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Based on how different these blues look on your skin vs how they look in the reference, yes.
BTW, blues are a PITA. So don't beat yourself up over it. I had to do the same thing with the Jg 54 tail bands.
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Based on how different these blues look on your skin vs how they look in the reference, yes.
BTW, blues are a PITA. So don't beat yourself up over it. I had to do the same thing with the Jg 54 tail bands.
Could it be partly due to lighting effects?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29544)
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Could it be partly due to lighting effects?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29544)
in your specific case, maybe. but even in AH2, making a blue shade that looked good was a challenge.
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It might help if you paint in your panel lines and grime it up a bit. You might find that the details pull that color in line.
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It might help if you paint in your panel lines and grime it up a bit. You might find that the details pull that color in line.
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The problem is, to get the panel lines right I need to narrow down the shade. The P-51 cowling 3D shape has a Roman nose effect (to use a horse term) and wraps in a complicated fashion. With the anti-glare panel you can mask this some, but with a solid color like this it’s just tough to manage. I’d like to get into the ballpark then weather it up. Maybe you’re right, I dunno.
in your specific case, maybe. but even in AH2, making a blue shade that looked good was a challenge.
I may shoot via eyeballing for the blue on that model posted by Guppy.
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Can you work the panel line mark below the diffuse layer with the diffuse layer set to a lower opacity?
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Can you work the panel line mark below the diffuse layer with the diffuse layer set to a lower opacity?
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I better ask Devil again. What should I do? Black panel lines with an opacity adjustment to the layer opacity?
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That is one route, I really need to pull one of the files over to photoshop to look at the mechanics of it all.
Most of my advice comes from years of asset creation for other platforms and applications.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What I think Ciaphas means is placing the blue layer(s) under all the weathering and detail layers as if it was on the final product. This would help.
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What I think Ciaphas means is placing the blue layer(s) under all the weathering and detail layers as if it was on the final product. This would help.
The problem I’m having is the way the noise layers interact with the shape. It causes all the seams to show and really screws with the colors to the point you have so many variations it’s hard to know what to tweak. I had to delete them around the nose for my sanity. I can add them back later and then tweak the blue back to where it should be.
I just need to know what the final color should be. If it’s that shade of blue on the screenshot, as shown...I can probably hit that for in-game use.
I have to step away from it for a day due to work but I will try to post what I’m talking about when I get a chance to work on it.
:salute
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The problem I’m having is the way the noise layers interact with the shape. It causes all the seams to show and really screws with the colors to the point you have so many variations it’s hard to know what to tweak. I had to delete them around the nose for my sanity. I can add them back later and then tweak the blue back to where it should be.
Check the noise layers at full power. I'm sure you'll find one piece has a lighter section at the seam and it's counterpart is darker on it's side of the seam. Try inverting the layer on one part to see if it helps.
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Check the noise layers at full power. I'm sure you'll find one piece has a lighter section at the seam and it's counterpart is darker on it's side of the seam. Try inverting the layer on one part to see if it helps.
Good thinking. :cheers:
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How does that nose 3D shape look with those colors if you take your screen shot inside of a test terrain?
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Here's an earlier 352nd P-51B in the blue color you were doing for the P-51D. Not sure if this helps...
(http://media.ww2color.com/images/05739.jpg)
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How does that nose 3D shape look with those colors if you take your screen shot inside of a test terrain?
It looks darker, but depending how reflective you make the paint via the spec maps you will see the bend.
I can mitigate that with the anti-glare panel but it’s pretty much impossible on a same -color nose. I will post a screenshot.
Here's an earlier 352nd P-51B in the blue color you were doing for the P-51D. Not sure if this helps...
http://media.ww2color.com/images/05739.jpg
It all helps. Much appreciated.
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I think this is close for the DARK blue. I'll get the lighter down later.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29553)
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The shade looks better but you still need to desaturate it. Far too bold.
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The shade looks better but you still need to desaturate it. Far too bold.
I will work on that. At least we are in the ballpark.
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How does that nose 3D shape look with those colors if you take your screen shot inside of a test terrain?
Here is where it is located. How visible it is depends on a lot of factors.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29555)
Flattening the paint lets you hide it. With an anti-glare panel you can eliminate it entirely but that means no reflection. So it's a matter of dialing up the reflection right to the point where you can almost see the bend.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29557)
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The blue paint in all the reference photos look pretty flat anyway, so I'd got with that finish.
Also, that 's not a bit map seam you're pointing to, just a polygon corner, so do not mess with the noise maps in that area.
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The blue paint in all the reference photos look pretty flat anyway, so I'd got with that finish.
I'll try that. Thanks.
Also, that 's not a bit map seam you're pointing to, just a polygon corner, so do not mess with the noise maps in that area.
I realize it is a part of the 3D model shape and that there are multiple things happening there where the nose parts come together with the fuselage. Lots of complex curves there. I'll show you what it looks like on the 2D. As I have it the noise layers are standard per what you gave me except I deleted them in some of these spots and added noise to the paint itself.
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I'm still working out the coloring. Then I can tweak the panel lines.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392648.0;attach=29559)
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Looking better all the time I think. :aok
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Looking better all the time I think. :aok
Thanks bruh.
BTW, that pic Guppy found of the plane is a goodmine off info. Is there a higher res version out there anywhere?
http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/2Bigweek/Blue5_zpsuuvipb7x.jpg.html