Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Terrain Editor => Topic started by: oboe on December 03, 2021, 06:30:34 PM
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Thinking of something like this. I would like to lift off with heavy bombers from an airfield outside of London and bomb Berlin. Or hit Rome from a captured base in North Africa.
(https://i.imgur.com/vjjtkU7.jpg)
I have to believe people have tried it over the years but found play balance too difficult to achieve?
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I think something like that would be really cool. Like you said the balance might be hard to achieve.
Other issues would be the mixed plane availability to all countries would kinda take away from the immersion of the more realistic map lay out.
For me it wouldnt bother me. If the balance was off, or people flew the wrong planes, or there is not Japanese area it would still be a fun map to play on. Im all for anything new. I wish Hitech would release the other new maps he has from Kong and Kenii
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Do I understand correctly that there have been new maps submitted, but are sitting at HTC with nothing happening toward getting them in game? As if HTC doesn't have the time or resources to review maps and get them into the game?
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Do I understand correctly that there have been new maps submitted, but are sitting at HTC with nothing happening toward getting them in game? As if HTC doesn't have the time or resources to review maps and get them into the game?
Correct, I think KONG has 2 This (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,401855.0.html) being one and Kenai redid the ndisles map here (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,402473.0.html)
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Oboe that looks really do able at first glance. I'll do a check to see if it is possible.
Yes several maps have been submitted by Kong and by me, they have, however not been put in the rotation. Not sure why, I got a message from Hitech back in August saying he was going to try and get my maps up. All I can think of he is too busy, or there are issues with the maps. So far no feed back.
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Oboe, would this work??
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That looks fantastic. At this point I overlay a 3-section colored pie to break roughly the areas of the 3 countries and get a feel for the land vs sea area ratio for each country:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34611)
I think the extra land area in North Africa is great for getting the strats out of the way for the southern country, and east Russia/Siberia is a good location for the East country's strats. But the NW country will need to use Ireland and Scotland and that's not much land area. They may be too close to each other?
One question, what is the minimum clearance needed for a CV group to pass between land areas? I'm wondering if it would be better to go to 11x11 map grip, extended to the Nort and West so there is more ocean maneuever room for NW countries fleets to get around Spain and into the Med.
Also, can you widen the narrow passages like the English Channel, Strait of Gibraltar, the Kattegat between Denmark and Sweden, and the Dardenelles Strait between the Black Sea and the Aegean Sea? So that CV or BB Groups can navigate through these passages? The East country will have ports in the Baltic and Black Seas, and will need to be able to get fleets out into the North Sea, Med, and even the Atlantic theoretically...
Also, can you mix tilesets? It would be great to use desert tiles in North Africa, mountain tiles in the Alps and Pyrenees, and mixed woodlands for the rest of the land areas...
This is so cool seeing it, thanks for bringing it to life Kenai!
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There are some things we can do to enable better CV mobility, also this is a small map, 256 X 256. If we went to a larger map that would open up a few things. The larger map would entail longer flight times, and more bases.
Strat locations is not a major issue in my opinion. Each countries area will have different advantages and disadvantages, just like in real life, there is never a perfect balance. Limit this to no more than 30 bases per country.
We would most likely have to modify the English Channel, the Straits of Gibraltar, and some islands in the baltic to allow cv usage. The Aegean Sea will also need some work.
As I understand it, we can not mix tile sets, how ever the tile sets have a pretty good variety of terrain types to choose from.
I'll pursue this some more and see what we can come up with. I'll keep you posted. :salute
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My first reaction is whether someone would be willing to sit in on 1 flt of bombers for many hours to Berlin. Realistic but not practical in the game. A 10 min GV ride from a spawn is tortous by times.
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Absolutely fair points, Turt21. I think the idea of this map should be to provide an strong ETO-like experience but at a compressed scale to support active MA-style game play.
On Kenai's map, Berlin would be located at approximately 10.13.2. Bombers lifting off from an airfield in East Anglia (7.13.3) would need to travel about 2.5 sectors to target. Each sector on this map is 25.6 miles, so its about 64 miles straight line to Berlin. At a cruising speed of 200 mph, this would take approximately 20 minutes real time.
A B-17 with 50% fuel and full bomb load climbs at about 1000 ft per minute, so climbing straight to target would get you there at an altitude of 19,000 ft, which is somewhat realistic. B-17s climb speed however is closer to 150 mph, so it would take longer. And you also have to level out at least half-sector before target so you can get the bombsite calibrated.
I think the dedicated heavy bomber players are used to this type of time commitment for a single mission in the MA. T I see them frequently in excess of 25000' so they are willing invest game time to climb to a very safe altitude. I don't have that patience myself, I typically only make it to 12-16000 before I'm over target.
Another thing I think needs to be kept in mind is the distance of the land borders between countries, to allow lots of opposing GV bases along the borders. In Kenai's map, the colored pie overlay's origin in central Italy means there is not much of a land border between the NW and Southern countries. If you compare to my proposed map above, you can see how I've tried to maximize land borders between all 3 countries.
Kenai, I'm especially encourage to hear your thoughts on Strat Target locations - I don't care for them grouped together way at the edge of the map, however this seems to be a characteristic of many MA maps. In my first map way above, you can see I've tried to spread them out through each country's domain, and put the large city at the site of a real world large city - London, Rome, and Berlin. In my proposed map, these 3 cities form a triangle and are roughly equidistant from each other.
I'd be interested to see the land area included at using 11x11 or 12x12 grid, if possible? I don't know the terrain tool, but am I correct in saying the maps either had to be 256x256 or 512x512? And Hitech has changed that somehow to support map dimensions that are OK as long as they are divisible by 2? Something like that?
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... but am I correct in saying the maps either had to be 256x256 or 512x512?
Correct as far as past MA terrains go. The player numbers don't really support the 512 size terrains any more so your have your size correct.
Consider the extreme example of mindnao where the western country was usually frozen out of the win the war part of the game because of the distances. While much better, you might want to throw some non RL islands into the Mediterranean to mitigate any issues with distances and balance for Africa.
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Here is a revised map;
I was having difficulties getting any data above Latitude 60 deg., that is now a none issue.
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I see a lot of potential there. The NW country could comprise England, Ireland, Norway, 1/2 of Spain, the west 1/2 of Germany. The Southern country could be all of N Africa, the other 1/2 of Spain, Italy, Greece, the Balkan States, and Turkey. The East country gets the rest.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34618)
The East country has the most land mass, but its naval fleets would be split between northern ports in the Baltic Sea and southern ports on the Black Sea. I don't know how that would play out in the MA? With so much ocean area around England and Ireland, would the NW Country's strat targets be subject to shelling by naval fleets, unlike the East country?
I don't mind the assymetry of real world geography, as long as it can be counterbalanced somehow.
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Here is a revised map;
I was having difficulties getting any data above Latitude 60 deg., that is now a none issue.
For data above Lat 60 you need to use GTOPO30. Since you are working in such a big "downscale" the GTOPO30 will be good enough. Make sure that you use up-to-date download sources
Also I strongly recommend reduce the number of rivers for a map of such a scale:
Default river_level=3 is too high, reduce it to 1 or even to 0 since the map filled with too many rivers.
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For data above Lat 60 you need to use GTOPO30. Since you are working in such a big "downscale" the GTOPO30 will be good enough. Make sure that you use up-to-date download sources
Also I strongly recommend reduce the number of rivers for a map of such a scale:
Default river_level=3 is too high, reduce it to 1 or even to 0 since the map filled with too many rivers.
Thanks artik, will do. You were correct earlier on the availability of gtopp30, as you know. I will change the river levels and see what we get. Your program is still AWESOME!!!!!! :x
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May need to change the Major cities to just Large airfields instead of the super field, take a look. I have London, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Rome so far. The super fields may cause frame rate problems for some.
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Here is a view of the latest tinkering.........
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That looks just excellent, Kenai! Thank you for bringing this idea to life!
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Here you are Oboe, bases set, still need to do spawn points, Shore Batterys, Flak Bases, Roads & Trains and finally Clouds. Give me some feedback.... :banana:
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- Looks like there is quite difference for blue country since there is huge water body inside.
- CV force is much more important in Mediterranean than for UK/France and quite negligible for eastern Europe. (Like in real life)
Other than that. Cool map!.
BTW: can you convert the map to png, jpeg or gif before attaching it? 16MB is way too much. It is 1/3 in png and ~1/8s In gif or jpeg.
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Kenai, this is just fantastic - thank you again for working on this. I'm not an experienced terrain designer, so please take these suggestions with that in mind - I'm not sure what I'd like to see is even feasible or practical for an MA terrain, however I would like to find a way to make it work, if possible. I've made a copy of the map and notated proposed changes with pink arrows.
1) City strat locations - is it possible to put city strat objects on the real world locations of London, Berlin, and Rome? These cities were all strategically bombed during the War, and I'd like to give heavy bomber groups the opportunity for realism in locations of targets.
2) Ploesti Fuel Refinery - I've moved the Green Country's refinery to the real-world location of the Ploesti refineries. These were attacked multiple times from bases in North Africa, and later Italy, I believe.
3) Italian Port of Taranto - this major Italian Navy base is located just inside the heel of the Italian 'boot'. It was the main base of the Italian Fleet.
4) Love that you put the major British anchorage of Scapa Flow at the tip of Scotland. Perfect!
5) Hamburg - I've moved the Norwegian port location to the German North Sea coast - the port of Hamburg, located miles inland from this coast on the River Elbe, is where the German battleship "Bismarck" was laid down. Love the idea of a 'breakout' into the North Sea with a battleship group spawned from here.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34711)
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Excellent Oboe, great ideas. I will get right on it. :rock
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Awesome!
Coupla more thoughts - I think we need to spread out the Red country's strat targets more. Freeing up the City location in western Ireland helps some, but may need to use the west reaches of France or northern Spain?
- I think these targets need to be protected from naval sheeling also - so can they have shore batteries, as well as Flak batteries, near them?
- The strait of Gibraltar may be a prime location for shore batteries as well, to protect entrance into the Mediterranean Sea.
- Also, could you place one or two more Vbases along the North African coast? The idea being to provide opportunity for the strung out land campaign North Africa, with lots of tank battle opportunities, and
Excellent stuff!
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Here is the latest rendition, I'll work on these added items next. You rae coming up with some excellent ideas Oboe. :rock
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I'd like to suggest removing the super large airfields. They kill frame rates for many players, myself included.
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That can be done Devil, but there is only 1 super base per country, near the HQ.
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I don't disagree with Devil - my frame rate suffers on CraterMA and I've been told its the mega-fields.
Coupla questions - what is a reasonable range on the map for accurate naval gunfire? We should keep this in mind as strats are placed, so they are situated as far inland as practicable.
Also, how far off-map can fleets sail? I know bombers sometimes fly off-map to avoid interception - I'm concerned the Blue country could sneak a fleet off-map and then bring it back in just near Ireland or Scotland and start shelling Red's strats. Is it possible to introduce a hidden land mass that would block all off-map fleet travel in the Atlantic?
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I'll replace the 3 remaining super bases with Large Airfields, that is no problem.
Gun range for the BB 16" guns is easily 26 miles, as I understand it. That puts most of the Red and Blue targets in range, due to the scale of the map. I have installed Shore Batteries at the Straits of Gibraltar, exit from the Black Sea, and the exit from the Baltic Sea. I also intend to install a pair across the Straits of Dover. Also as a general reference, I would put shore batteries at any base, or strat, near the shoreline.
As to Ships sailing off the map, we have several maps currently in rotation that have that "possibility", and I have never seen it. I'll try a few experiments to see if it is possible and what counter measures we can take if necessary.
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What is the general consensus on Flak bases? 4 for each strat?, just 1 or what. :cheers:
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Here is another update on the Europe map.........
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first, click "save as...." and please! save them as a jpeg! :devil
Second, it looks like for most of the map once you start taking bases you'll be flying in puffy.
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Here it is:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34721)
I see what Fugi is saying, perhaps remove the Flak bases that you've put near the Ports, and go down to one flak base per strat target?
Or, maybe only have Flak bases near Strat targets that are located on the edge of the map? I would also having no GV spawns into strat targets.
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Fugi, I know there is a way to display the picture in the forum, I just don't know how to do it. I can save the file as a JPEG and will do so in the future, if I don't forget.
As to all the flak bases, I just can't imagine a strategic asset not having some added protection, I will however comply with the request. I will say that the Cities, IMHO, should have at least 1 flak base due to their accessibility. Maybe what I should do is go extreme the other way, no flak bases.
I'm actually having a lot of fun with this map. I still have not done the spawn points, nor fine tuned the terrain/trees. Flying around in cms/eye mode it looks awesome!
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Kenai, I really appreciate the work you're doing on this terrain, and am glad to here you are having fun with it! Every suggestion I make has to be taken with a grain of salt, as I have no terrain building experience. Having said that:
- I think Red country;s Fuel strat is too close to front lines. No other country has a strat so close to enemy fields.
- I agree with flakbase protection for strats, however the current map has flakbases around some ports and if the goal is to trim down the number of flakbases, I think these Port flakbases could be removed without too much negative effect.
- I am not much of a strategic bomber, so I don't know how much flak a flakbase puts up against attacking bombers, or why it might be necessary to have 2 flakbases per strat. But I have seen this configuration in MA terrains. Perhaps it's overkill, and one would suffice?
- The map has 6 small AFs, 7 medium AFs, and 7 large AFs per country. I'm not sure what the correct/best distribution is, but it seems to me that small AFs should be the most numerous, followed by medium AFs, and then large AFs. Maybe replace one of the large AFs with a small AF for each country? I really like that you've made Paris a large AF, but perhaps there should be at least one small AF along the French northern coast?
- I think the 3-way GV bases around Switzerland is a good idea. Perhaps each of these GV bases should have a spawn pt into a central ground combat area. Is it possible to make GV bases uncapturable?
That's all I've got for now. I'm really excited to see this terrain and see how it plays out in the MA.
Thanks again for your efforts!
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No Problem Kenai, I just hate using the bandwidth on my phone to see your map, I have to wait until I get home. Just dont have the patience :P
I understand what your saying about the protection, but that should be up to the players to provide. If you make it a nightmare to fly, whos going to want to play that map? Id remove the ones at the ports, and only keep one at each strat.
I like the base count. I think if you push for a larger percentage of small bases over medium and large your setting it up for quicker base grabs and rolling a map. A few small bases to get started, but then the bigger base sure dominate to slow the base grab down.
I dont think Hitech will allow "uncapturable" GV bases. It was brought up years ago for the "ndisles" map and he didnt like it then. For the longest time he didnt like a "tank town" area on a map either but well the only way to know for sure is to ask him.
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Excellent suggestions gentlemen, will try to get these implemented next. Adding or deleting a base is not a big issue, nor is moving one. It only gets tedious after you set the spawn points. :rock
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Awesome - and if the central 3 GV bases are intended to form a "tank town" for GV play, you could move them as close to each other as practicable, with each have a single spawn into the central combat area - which could be a mix of trees/open space and those small villages. No opposing spawns into the Vbases, but perhaps defensive spawns supporting the VBase from other of the country's fields - to make them harder to capture and remove any tactical reason for their capture, other than adding to the base totals.
Will the Alps be high enough to have snow capped peaks?
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Will the Alps be high enough to have snow capped peaks?
If we want, the peaks are very steep due to the scale of the map, areas adjacent to bases and spawn points will have to be smoothed out. But again a normal map production routine. I'm thinking we do spawn points from the base to the towns, as Bustr and Kong did on their maps. This seems to enhance the gv activity.
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Here it is w/o the flak bases and the minor base count changes.......
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Some early ideas on spawn points..........
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Some early ideas on spawn points..........
Personally, I'm not a fan of cross-water vehicle spawns. I'd rather see an actual amphibious invasion required where necessary. But it may be a necessary concession to game play. 'Course, it could also make up for England's disadvantage of strats being more exposed to naval bombardment? It looks like A2 and A3 locations could be switched - Paris, could be the larger airfield, but its real world location is closer to A2. I'm also partial to small airfields along the northern French coast...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34737)
More comments coming as I can think of them, but will you be able to form the Rock of Gilbraltar? Very important lankmark, as are the Cliffs of Dover on the Channel...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34735)
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IMOH, over water spawns are essential for good game play. Albeit duplex spawns may not be needed. In the case of A29, I believe one spawn in (from A5) is needed, however the spawn form A19 to A29 could be eliminated. With A19 and A20 duplex spawns, they are covered. I think game play is enhanced when components are not geographically isolated.
Swapping A2 and A3 is no problem. Moving Small airfields up on the French North coast could be done by switching A4 and A16.
I think we have to work on the imbalance on Red/Green front. I think I need to move the Large airfields A24 and A51 back from the front.
I will try to duplicate the Rock of Gibraltar, and the Cliffs of Dover, but at best they will be approximations.
Keep giving me feedback, I’m having fun so far. Hope you are seeing what you wanted. :rock
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IMOH, over water spawns are essential for good game play. Albeit duplex spawns may not be needed. In the case of A29, I believe one spawn in (from A5) is needed, however the spawn form A19 to A29 could be eliminated. With A19 and A20 duplex spawns, they are covered. I think game play is enhanced when components are not geographically isolated.
Swapping A2 and A3 is no problem. Moving Small airfields up on the French North coast could be done by switching A4 and A16.
I think we have to work on the imbalance on Red/Green front. I think I need to move the Large airfields A24 and A51 back from the front.
I will try to duplicate the Rock of Gibraltar, and the Cliffs of Dover, but at best they will be approximations.
Keep giving me feedback, I’m having fun so far. Hope you are seeing what you wanted. :rock
Yes sir, thank you! Very excited about the prospect of flying on this map, and I hope we can achieve balance even with the asymmetry of real-world locations and land masses. I'd like to see it be able to support strategic bombing of enemy population centers and industrial targets, large air-supported land battles in the East and in the Ardennes, amphibious invasions of North Africa or Italy, air assaults on Crete and/or Malta, etc.
Might I also suggest moving London city a little closer to iot real-world location, and moving the large airfield to the real world location of Norwich - there were many 8th AF bomber fields in the Norfolk/Suffolk/Norwich area. You could move a small AF A25 to the English Channel coast near the former location of the large AF. The the Fuel Strat could be placed west of Birmingham, where A25 was formerly.
Also, the Rock of Gilbraltar had 2 shore batteries built into its sides. Really commanded the entrance to the Mediterranean.
btw, was up the other day and a set of buffs overflew a target protected by a flak base. The amount of puffy ack it threw up was amazing!
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Here are the latest changes to the map. I have most of the spawns laid out for the Red country, note these are interior spawns only. I will set up the cross country spawns after all the interior spawns are done.
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Here are the latest changes to the map. I have most of the spawns laid out for the Red country, note these are interior spawns only. I will set up the cross country spawns after all the interior spawns are done.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34741)
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I think the spawn from A5 to A19 could be eliminated, with out any negative impact on game play.
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Looking good Kenai. One concern I still have is the eastern side of the map - is there enough sea-room for a fleet vs fleet action, for example, as a blue CV or BB tries to break out into the Atlantic, and a red fleet moves to encounter them off Spain's western coast? It just looks very tight to me with regard to fleet vs fleet maneuvering room in that portion of the map...
Would it be forgiveable to have an 11x11 sector MA map, rather than 10x10? It IS an awfully large portion of the world we are depicting here, after all. If possible, could the map could be extended by a full sector to the East, and by 1/2 sectors each on the North and South borders? The new land in Norway could hold an additional base for the red country, and in the North Africa, Blue's strats could be pushed further south into the desert, and an additional VBase could be placed along the Mediterranean Coast near real world location of Algiers?
Forgive the crude example, but a picture explains it better:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34759)
btw, the French had a naval base (or anchorage at least), at Oran on the North Africa Mediterranean Cost, west of A94 - the French fleet was trapped and shelled here by the British early in the War, to prevent French battleships from being used by the Germans. Might be a realistic placement for P73...
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Been working on spawn points for Bishops (Red). I will post the latest map revision tonight if possible.
There should be plenty of room for CV/BB maneuvering, we have several existing MA maps that are more congested than this map. A break out of the Rook (blue) or Knight (green) task groups into the Atlantic should not be an issue. I do have defensive Shore Batteries at the Straits of Gibraltar, the Cliffs of Dover, at A65 for the access to the Baltic, and A64 access to the Black Sea.
Map sizes are limited by the Terrain Editor to very specific sizes, 64, 128, 256 & 512 sq. miles. The current map is 256, to increase it would double the size of the map and dictate more bases. I could possible change the scale to increase the overall dimensions. I'll look into that.
I can relocate P73 to Oran, I put it where it is now just to give it better access to the Atlantic and provide some protection for the Straits.
I appreciate your input, and your expertise on WW2 bases and functions during the war, while I am somewhat of WW2 history buff, your attention to detail has been very inspiring and encouraging. :salute
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Here is the latest map update.....
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Here is the latest map update.....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34765)
Looking good! It's exciting for me to see the real-life mountain ranges represented - the Alps, the Pyrenees, Carpathians, Atlas, etc.
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Okay Oboe, how are you posting the map on the forum? :headscratch:
Never mind, found it......... :D
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Finished the Knight (green) spawn points, here is the update........
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Oboe, you think it would worth the effort to put a base on Malta? We could install a small base with no town, just the map room, like what Bustr did in Rift Valley. That would be more historic.
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I like the idea of a small base on Malta. It would have the advantages of an unsinkable CV, just like it did in WWII. But the island appears so small, would it fit? It may be the airbase on Sicily will have to serve as a stand-in for Malta?
Are you trying to keep the physical distances between all bases between 19-25 miles? I *thought* I read somewhere that was an MA design criteria. And many people prefer closely-spaced bases for the shorter flight time to get into action it provides...
Really looking promising. Starting to make me salivate a little...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34767)
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love it. Adds another facet of realism to the game
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Here is a pic of the airfield at Malta in 1953. Not sure how much would've changed since 41-45
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34769)
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Here is the first draft of the spawn points for all bases, but no cross country spawns yet. Please review, make suggestions on existing spawn points and recommendations for cross country spawns. While I have tried to provide at least 2 spawn points into every base, that has not always been possible, especially on the small islands. As a starting point I would like to see at least 2 if not 3 two way cross country spawns on each front.
Oboe the Malta island, at this scale, would have to be doubled in size to accommodate a small base. It can be done, I would suggest moving the small air base on Crete to the Malta island if we decide we want it.
I can upload this map if you want to fly in it and check things out. There is still a lot of work too do, before we submit it to Hitech. Personally I like to fly out of every base, spawn into/out of every base, run M3's from every spawn, to insure there are no hidden gotcha's in the terrain. This helps insure there are no super steep hills from the spawns, the tree configuration is reasonable, Shore Batteries are aimed properly.
Well enough for now, I'm still having fun. :D
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New update...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404570.0;attach=34785)
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europe3 with cross country spawns. Any suggestions on adding the third BB group to each country??
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34799)
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europe3 with cross country spawns. Any suggestions on adding the third BB group to each country??
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34799)
I don't like the BB's in general. If you want to add more ships, add CV's. At least there is an air element to them for players who play this game to fly.
It occurs to me that A4(red) is the closest bare to the green country port in 9,12,9. Seems to me that it's a bad idea to have a port so isolated from friendly air defenders.
Also, I'm looking at the map in terms of opening moves for aircraft and the Green/Blue fronts doesn't offer the same opportunities as Red/Blue or Red/Green
I think both of these issues can be remedied by shifting one base's ownership on each front. Change A4 to Green, A93 to Red, and the green base in 12,9,6 to Blue (Can't read the number)
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I don't like the BB's in general. If you want to add more ships, add CV's. At least there is an air element to them for players who play this game to fly.
It occurs to me that A4(red) is the closest bare to the green country port in 9,12,9. Seems to me that it's a bad idea to have a port so isolated from friendly air defenders.
Also, I'm looking at the map in terms of opening moves for aircraft and the Green/Blue fronts doesn't offer the same opportunities as Red/Blue or Red/Green
I think both of these issues can be remedied by shifting one base's ownership on each front. Change A4 to Green, A93 to Red, and the green base in 12,9,6 to Blue (Can't read the number)
No big push one way of the other on the additional BB group.
Green A34 is closer to to Green P44 and Green A65 is just north. We could drop A65 south to provide additional coverage for the P44.
To balance the Green/Blue front better, we could swap A52 and V47, this would provide one more airfield adjacent to the front. This would bring the Green front up to 4 airbase, to match the 4 Blue airbases.
I appreciate the feedback Devil 505, so far I am having a ball playing with this map. Oboes, Fugitive, Turt21, Easyscor's feedback and yours feedback have had a very positive effect on the map.
I am currently driving every spawn, flying out of every base, checking the elevations and setting the terrains, to try and accommodate all the different game plays. Bombers, Air Combat, Naval, and GV's. I started at Field #1, I am now up to #26. Still a long way to go. At some point I will upload the map and let everyone have access to it, I'm hoping for a lot more feedback then as well.
Again, thanks for the feedback, and let me know what you think about my solutions to your suggestions.
:salute
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Devil505, see if this doesn't address your concerns sir.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34801)
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Well done. She’s a beauty. :salute
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Can you show some in-flight screen shots over alps?
BTW what is the scale of the map?
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Devil505, see if this doesn't address your concerns sir.
I'm not sure it does, honestly. The more I think about it, the more I think the primary problem is that this port starts directly next to an enemy field. Every other port has at least a friendly air base between it and the closest enemy base.
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Can you show some in-flight screen shots over alps?
BTW what is the scale of the map?
The scale is 8.00, all mountains are really steep at that scale. Been trying to keep the original elevations as much as possible. But that doesn't lend it's self to gv access near the bases, so I have had to modify there.
I'll try to get a few screen shoots over the Alps for you Artik.
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I'm not sure it does, honestly. The more I think about it, the more I think the primary problem is that this port starts directly next to an enemy field. Every other port has at least a friendly air base between it and the closest enemy base.
I'll look into some other options Devil505 for the port. I assume the Balance issue you had for the Blue/Green is now acceptable, or at least better.
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Artik, here are some screen shots.....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34806)
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I'll look into some other options Devil505 for the port. I assume the Balance issue you had for the Blue/Green is now acceptable, or at least better.
Yeah, I think so.
:aok
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Looks nice
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Looks nice
Thanks Artik, its all due to your wonderful program.
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Looks fantastic, Jimmy! Apologies for my absence, I've been away working on other projects.
One thing that strikes me is the distance between airfields. NHawk's post in the Terrain forum describes the best distance between fields as between 0.75 and 1.0 sectors. There are a few bases with much greater separation distances - especially in the east. Would it be possible to add another airfield or two for each country, so the field density is increased a little? I know more than a few MA pilots complain about the time it takes to fly to a fight.
Where did the flak bases go? I thought at least one by the major strat targets, (esp cities) was appropriate.
Thank you for working on this - still very excited at the possibility of seeing this terrain in the MA. At some point would it be wise to have Hitech weigh in on the concept? I'm crazy for it and I'm optimistic that the natural asymmetry of the map can be accounted for, but not sure about his feelings on it.
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Oboe loved your rendition of Greebo's Crater map btw.
WE could move the eastern Green bases more towards the central area to reduce flight times. The biggest issue is the difference in land mass between the Red/Green/Blue and an attempt to stay somewhat accurate to historic locations, albeit not 100%.
I had initially installed Flak bases, probably to many :) , and got a big push back. I agree however there should be some overall Strat protection, for at least the Cities. If you feel the need for the other strat protection, let me know.
I would LOVE to have feedback from Dale on the map as we go, it is my desire to see the map go into rotation if at all possible and I know he has the final say.
I have generated a "Tank Town" setup in the Alps. Using the Mountain style Vbases with no enemy spawns into the bases. All 3 spawn into a combat area in fairly close proximity to each other. While the bases can be captured, by flying troops in, the owning country has 2 gv spawns into it. This better allows recapture, if the base is taken unexpectedly.
I am currently working the elevations at each base to insure practical drive times for M3's and other gv's, hills that are scalable. I am also working the terrain to insure there are not too many trees while insuring the field is not wide open. Shore Batteries are going in where needed. Out of 99 bases, I am currently working on Base 37 on the map.
The map could be uploaded at this point for you to fly and review, just know it is still a work in progress. I am still enjoying myself, I love doing this, would just like to see the maps get into rotation, or at least know what was wrong if they don't make it.
Stay in touch :salute
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Oboe, this may help on the Green distance issue...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34816)
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Oboe loved your rendition of Greebo's Crater map btw.
Thanks, it was just a goofy idea I had that wouldn't go away, so I had to try making it.
Regarding NHawk's post of MA Terrain tips, he recommended base distances between .75 and 1.0 sectors. I've made a white ring around Green A39, which shows this sweet zone in white. You could move A62 northeast into the ring to solve it here.
RE: Tank town, I would go ahead and move the 3 VBases real close to each other make itr clear that is what it is - perhaps players will respect that and leave those bases out of the capture action. If not, I agree with your idea of other bases supporting the VBases.
I've also shown one additional small field for each country and giving A4 to Green to address Devil's concern about the port at Hamburg. I gave Blue a Small AF along the North African coast and moved A69 toward the real-life location of Algiers. Red lost A4, so gets a new small AF near the old location of V15 to make up for the loss, and it's new additional small AF is located in the west portion of Ireland.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34818)
Just suggestions on my part - it's easier to describe what I mean with a picture. Can't wait to play it, regardless! Its looking great!
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I like Oboe's ideas regarding maintaining that sweet spot for base distance. Not sure if NHawk specified this sweet spot being for all bases or just for air fields, but I suspect the latter is the case. Maybe more aggressive overhaul of base placement could improve things even further.
I see a few area on the map where Vbases are placed that make for long flights to nearby air fields. I see these as areas where air action will die out when it becomes the front line - mainly V98 on Corsica and the Vbases in Hungary, Romania, and Ukraine. That whole region is a dead zone for aircraft and it will only funnel Blue offensives against Green towards Austria and Germany. Southern France and Sweden are also looking a little barren.
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Here it is with the latest suggestions.......
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34821)
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Moved some bases around and added a couple more for each country. Long flight times in the Mediterranean maybe unavoidable, unless we add more Ports and CV's.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34824)
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Flying the Alps.....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34826)
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Did you have to color the terrain yourself? Seems much nicer than the Alps on our danube terrain from what I can recall.
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Did you have to color the terrain yourself? Seems much nicer than the Alps on our danube terrain from what I can recall.
We can color it or rely on the terrain settings. The Editor does allow us to set terrain settings based on the angle of the slope and altitude, these come in handy for mountains.
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Latest rendition, up to base 47 doing spawn checks and elevation verification's.........
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34828)
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We can color it or rely on the terrain settings. The Editor does allow us to set terrain settings based on the angle of the slope and altitude, these come in handy for mountains.
Gotcha, I'd have to look at Danube again, just from what I remember it didn't seem very snowy lol. Looks awesome!!
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Its looking very playable to me.
- There are some fields that seem too close to each other; I've put pink rings around them.
- Regarding the "tank town: in center, if you don't group them closely together, they will appear as part of the overall land-capture part of the game - grouping them together might help players recognize these bases are for GV battles only and should not be captured, similar to other terrains with tank towns. Grouping these VBases also opens up some more territory to spread bases out where needed.
- I've shown flakbases; one per strat, just to give an idea of their density on the full map. Personally I would expect strats to be protected like this, your earlier version showed 2 flakbases per strat and perhaps that was too much in areas where bases are a bit close to each other.
As always, take my suggestions with a grain of salt - I don't have a lot of experience in terrain design considerations. Just trying to help and show I'm following your progress with interest!
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34830)
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Its looking very playable to me.
- There are some fields that seem too close to each other; I've put pink rings around them.
- Regarding the "tank town: in center, if you don't group them closely together, they will appear as part of the overall land-capture part of the game - grouping them together might help players recognize these bases are for GV battles only and should not be captured, similar to other terrains with tank towns. Grouping these VBases also opens up some more territory to spread bases out where needed.
- I've shown flakbases; one per strat, just to give an idea of their density on the full map. Personally I would expect strats to be protected like this, your earlier version showed 2 flakbases per strat and perhaps that was too much in areas where bases are a bit close to each other.
As always, take my suggestions with a grain of salt - I don't have a lot of experience in terrain design considerations. Just trying to help and show I'm following your progress with interest!
Thanks for the feedback Oboe, I very much WANT your feedback/suggestions, was well as anyone else's. Collaboration will lead to success with this map.
I will see what I can do with these latest ones. Should not be a major issue. The Tank Town bases can still be captured, but to me the key is they will be easier to recapture also. I'll also see about getting them closer to allow moving other base some.
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You are very welcome!
I have a question about strat targets. Are they all created equally, or are some Strats higher-value targets than others? I'm thinking that teams seem to go for the radar and AA Strats more often, however I might be mistaken in this. Where can I go to find up-to-date info on how Strats affect the game?
If there are more important Strats, maybe they should be the ones furthest away from the front lines...
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You are very welcome!
I have a question about strat targets. Are they all created equally, or are some Strats higher-value targets than others? I'm thinking that teams seem to go for the radar and AA Strats more often, however I might be mistaken in this. Where can I go to find up-to-date info on how Strats affect the game?
If there are more important Strats, maybe they should be the ones furthest away from the front lines...
IMHO with the exception of the HQ, each strat has different strategic impacts. Cities, as you know, determine Town Building down times, AAA impacts gun down times, Ammo impacts Ord Bunker down times, Radar etc, Troops and Refinery. Traditionally the focus has been on AAA and Ammo, with Radar being a close third. Troops have the potential of being very important as it affects your ability to re-supply bases and towns.
Our current configuration has each countries City representing a Major City of Europe. For the Bishop/Red it is London, for Knight/Green it is Berlin, and for Rook/Blue it is Rome.
I am not aware of any data that we have access to that would clarify Strat usage. Lusche might have some data.
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IMHO with the exception of the HQ, each strat has different strategic impacts. Cities, as you know, determine Town Building down times, AAA impacts gun down times, Ammo impacts Ord Bunker down times, Radar etc, Troops and Refinery. Traditionally the focus has been on AAA and Ammo, with Radar being a close third. Troops have the potential of being very important as it affects your ability to re-supply bases and towns.
This got me thinking that perhaps it's best to move each country's radar strat to the rear since taking it down results in horrid gameplay.
Does the HQ do anything? Maybe the HQ for Blue should be moved farther east to not be so close to the Red/Blue front. I see it as being very vulnerable if bombing it has an effect.
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Here is the latest changes suggested by Oboe.....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34832)
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This got me thinking that perhaps it's best to move each country's radar strat to the rear since taking it down results in horrid gameplay.
Does the HQ do anything? Maybe the HQ for Blue should be moved farther east to not be so close to the Red/Blue front. I see it as being very vulnerable if bombing it has an effect.
We could do that Devil505, as it is now Radar, AAA and Ammo are accessible. But they are defensible also.
HQ does not do anything anymore, its just there.
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I believe we have the layout pretty much set now. On to completing the elevations for each base, the spawn points, and the terrain. I also have to finalize the Cloud setup. I will upload in the not to distant future for everyone to fly and give feedback. When done, I will change the map name to "ETOMA".
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34837)
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:aok
Don't forget the "White Cliffs" of Dover, and the Rock of Gilbraltar!
Also - CraterMA has been back up in the MA, and I specifically choose to spawn at the Huge AFs. I did not notice a drop in frame rate; it stayed steady at 90fps (my VR refresh rate). So I'm not sure what the problem is, but it is tempting to ask for at least one Huge AF for each country. I like the layout of these fields and their associated towns, and they throw up a god amount of ack ack against bomber formations...
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Also - CraterMA has been back up in the MA, and I specifically choose to spawn at the Huge AFs. I did not notice a drop in frame rate; it stayed steady at 90fps (my VR refresh rate). So I'm not sure what the problem is, but it is tempting to ask for at least one Huge AF for each country. I like the layout of these fields and their associated towns, and they throw up a god amount of ack ack against bomber formations...
It's mainly when the ack starts firing. Go to one when it's being attacked.
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Those are no problem Oboe, IF we decide we want 1 super base per country we'll just replace the Large airfield at each City strat. As to the Cliffs of Dover and the Rock of Gibraltar those are just elevation and terrain issues. The main issue at this point is setting the bases and not changing them, every time we move a base it requires a total redo of the local elevations, terrain and spawns. With a 132 different locations, it can get tedious real quick. I do have a checklist I go by to insure I review every base, every spawn, and the access ability of the base and town from every spawn, ie no steep hills to prevent gv access. I also check every base with bombers to insure they can get off the ground and don't run into a mountain on their climb out from at least 1 runway. As of today, I have reviewed from Base #1 all the way to #20, again confirming the checklist items. :cheers:
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Changed Map name and re-sequenced base numbers....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34841)
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Still progressing along, we are in the tedious part of map building now. All of the Red, and Green bases have been individually checked for each functional gv spawn, fighter and bombers launches, Shore Battery scan ranges. Now moving on the Blue bases.
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Still progressing along, we are in the tedious part of map building now. All of the Red, and Green bases have been individually checked for each functional gv spawn, fighter and bombers launches, Shore Battery scan ranges. Now moving on the Blue bases.
Have you sent Hitech an email with the question of "would this work as a MA map?" and give him the link to the thread? I think your having fun at building this, but if you plan to submit it you should get his input on it and I think an email is the best way, short of a phone call to make sure he sees it.
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Have you sent Hitech an email with the question of "would this work as a MA map?" and give him the link to the thread? I think your having fun at building this, but if you plan to submit it you should get his input on it and I think an email is the best way, short of a phone call to make sure he sees it.
Good idea, I will do that today. The sooner we have his input the better. :rock
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Latest changes, based on some feedback, new vbases to come.......
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34891)
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Added back in 8 new Vbases....
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34891)
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I only see the 3 VBases in the center...
My thoughts:
- central Sweden looks a little barren - I think that area could support another field, around 11.15.1, you might shift A54 and 55 SW a little more to make room.
- Northern Italy has only 1 field (A92). I think a small field could fit somewhere SW of V81.
- To maintain field numbers balance, Red might squeeze another field in along England's North Sea coast. Might have to shift A28 location a bit to fit. But it looks to me like 2 fields could fit here instead of 1.
Getting very exciting to hear you got feedback from Hitech about this map. I think there are a fair number of players looking foirward to this one!
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My bad, I posted a older map, here is the correct one, with the additional V-bases.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34893)
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Here's a map showing optimum base distances. The rings are 1/2 sector wide, situated a minimum of 1/2 sector from the fields. I left off GVBases and small airfields, as it was getting too busy. But even this display might be helpful in IDing bare spots.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34900)
Norway-Sweden-Denmark area, for example. And the SE corner of the terrain looks pretty empty. Also, I think it appears that the Green and Blue strats are further apart from each other (as a group) than the Red-Blue or Red-Green strats? Maybe a blue strat shoudl be moved further east in N Afrtrica, or placed on Crete?
I'll try to do a distance analysis today of the avergae distance to opposing strat targets from the each of the countries' most forward airfields.
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EDIT: Fixed the RED to GREEN Strat paths to originate at A16, the closest base to green enemy strats.
Here is a brief analysis of distances to Strat targets - as you can see, Team RED is at a disadvantage. Distances are in pixels, scale is about 5.5 px = 1 mile. I drew lines from the closest large/medium field to the enemy strats, though maybe I erred and should have gone from Red A19 or A16 to Green strats rather than starting from A1.
I *think* you might want to address this, maybe by making the Green and Blue strats closer to each other? Not sure much can be done about Red's strat locations, except if you bring in Iceland in the far NW corner of the map...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34912)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=34914)
The most concerning discrepancy to me is the advantage BLUE has over attacking Green's Strats.
ALSO: Is there a way to disable heavy 4-engine bombers from small fields?
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We can work these issues, I believe. While it will never be perfectly balanced it can be improved on.
As a point of reference, the City for each country is represented in a geographical location. The Red City is located generally where London would be, the Green City is located generally where Berlin would be, and the Blue City is located generally where Rome would be. I believe these need to stay as they are.
The other Strat facilities can be moved as needed to balance the accessibility.
I think one of the strong points of this map, is the uniqueness of each country. No two are the exactly the same. Each has strong points and weak points, very much like the ETO was in WW2.
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All I can say is this map looks awesome and I can't wait to see it in rotation.
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We can work these issues, I believe. While it will never be perfectly balanced it can be improved on.
As a point of reference, the City for each country is represented in a geographical location. The Red City is located generally where London would be, the Green City is located generally where Berlin would be, and the Blue City is located generally where Rome would be. I believe these need to stay as they are.
The other Strat facilities can be moved as needed to balance the accessibility.
I think one of the strong points of this map, is the uniqueness of each country. No two are the exactly the same. Each has strong points and weak points, very much like the ETO was in WW2.
Totally agree on the static current locations of each City - very important to have the locations of London, Rome, Berlin on this map (as well as the refinery at Ploesti in Romania). And also agree, it will never be perfect, and the differences due to geography are part of the map's character.
For MA gameplay, you may need to fill in some gaps where bases are remote - e.g. the Eastern Med may need some additional island bases - perhaps stick one on Malta, and/or the Isle of Rhodes at 14.6.7. I think it would be acceptable to increase the size of these small islands somewhat if even a small airfield seems too large to place on them. What's important here is the historicalk significance of the island base (Malta) as well as evening out base density in the empty areas.
Like Spikes I am really looking forward to seeing this map in the rotation. Thanks for letting us watch and comment on your progress!
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Converted a base from each country to a small airbase, with maproom. Moved Dar strats for the Red and Blue countries to try and even them out some what. Still checking each base for elevations, aircraft launches, gv access at each spawn, checking terrain to insure not to many trees etc. Check out a135, A144, and A154.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34922)
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Down to just the V-bases to check now, we are getting closer. What is the opinion of adding that third BB group? Do we need more Ports with cv/bb groups?
To me the spawns look a little hectic/busy, any comments?
I hope to Up load the map, first draft, within the next week. :x
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I like seeing BB groups but 2 is probably sufficient given the smaller size of the waterways on this map. With 3 CV groups, that's 5 fleets for each country.
I would really like to see a BB Group based at Taranto (P71). Can you associate B104 with P71 instead of P75? Taranto is where the Italian capital ships were berthed and where the British staged a daring torpedo plane attack that successfully crippled the Italian fleet.
I agree the spawns look hectic/busy. I have seen other maps (can't recall which one offhand) which limit spawns to only nearby bases, but I don't know which strategy is best for online arena play. My guess is more spawns would make the map harder to flip? But it does seem like at least a few of the crossing spawns could be removed, esp. ones that are more than 1 sector in length. You might also remove spawns into strats - I don't know if they are worth it. Seems like they would be used as pesky vehicle strat raids more often than they would be used as vehicle resupply route for the strat.
You've got some Vbases without any spawns at all - V147, V148, V158, V159, V155, is this an oversight? Seems to me every VBase should have at least one spawn out, and one spawn in.
I suppose that VBases should have more spawns than airfields - since this is the way Vbases project their power on the map. Airfields should primarily project their power through airplanes, not vehicle spawns (my thoughts only, ymmv).
Its looking great JimmyD3! Very excited at the prospect of this map coming to the MA!
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I think it looks great. What is the process to update maps once they are submitted? I'm just thinking...let it go and get some data once it's been in the game for a few rotations, get player feedback, and make some changes (if it's easy enough to do).
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I like seeing BB groups but 2 is probably sufficient given the smaller size of the waterways on this map. With 3 CV groups, that's 5 fleets for each country.
I would really like to see a BB Group based at Taranto (P71). Can you associate B104 with P71 instead of P75? Taranto is where the Italian capital ships were berthed and where the British staged a daring torpedo plane attack that successfully crippled the Italian fleet. This is no problem, will try to get it done this weekend.
I agree the spawns look hectic/busy. I have seen other maps (can't recall which one offhand) which limit spawns to only nearby bases, but I don't know which strategy is best for online arena play. My guess is more spawns would make the map harder to flip? But it does seem like at least a few of the crossing spawns could be removed, esp. ones that are more than 1 sector in length. You might also remove spawns into strats - I don't know if they are worth it. Seems like they would be used as pesky vehicle strat raids more often than they would be used as vehicle resupply route for the strat.
They just appear to be to disorganized I guess is the word I'm looking for lol. As to the strat spawns, I believe they are essential, a lot of the new players get their initial perk points from resupping. Currently there are no cross country Vbase spawns.
You've got some Vbases without any spawns at all - V147, V148, V158, V159, V155, is this an oversight? Seems to me every VBase should have at least one spawn out, and one spawn in. Yeah I am working those as we speak. Was trying to set them up for support/Re-supple purposes, may have to rethink that.
I suppose that VBases should have more spawns than airfields - since this is the way Vbases project their power on the map. Airfields should primarily project their power through airplanes, not vehicle spawns (my thoughts only, ymmv).
Its looking great JimmyD3! Very excited at the prospect of this map coming to the MA!
I'm still having a blast, still have about 3 v bases to verify, then I'm going to take a hard look at the spawns. See if I can't redesign something that is still functional but cleaner. I'll keep you all posted. :salute
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I think it looks great. What is the process to update maps once they are submitted? I'm just thinking...let it go and get some data once it's been in the game for a few rotations, get player feedback, and make some changes (if it's easy enough to do).
As I understand it, Once they are in rotation, they are pretty much fixed. However I plan to upload the map to allow review, before we submit it to Hitech. That should be the opportunity for others to review the map and provide their feedback. Now if Hitech is willing to allow updates, I have no problem with updating the map. We'll just have to play that by ear I guess.
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Here is the latest revision. Need to go back and review the spawns
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34971)
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As I understand it, Once they are in rotation, they are pretty much fixed. However I plan to upload the map to allow review, before we submit it to Hitech. That should be the opportunity for others to review the map and provide their feedback. Now if Hitech is willing to allow updates, I have no problem with updating the map. We'll just have to play that by ear I guess.
Gotcha, I was not sure how that works. It may be something to ask him when you're ready for him to review/submit. I would imagine if there ended up being a glaring problem or advantage and an easy solution, hopefully he'd be willing to update it. :)
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Jimmy, do you have a set of guidelines you use when creating the spawns? For example, the number of spawns based on a field type, i.e. VBases have 3 spawns - one spawn in and two spawns out, small AFs, one spawn in and one spawn out, Medium and Large AFs, 4 spawns, etc. Anything like that? I'm just wondering how its done, what the rationale is for placement, etc. I have this idea that spawn placement can make or break the playability of a map, but I don't have enough of an understanding of overall MA strategies to know what kind of spawn arrangements tend to work best.
My observations on the current spawn placement:
One concern I see right away is the large AF Red 22 in Spain - it is 1/2 sector away from blue VBase V159, which has a direct spawn into the Blue Ammo Strat on the island of Sardinia in the Med. So at the beginning of War, the Red country is only one base capture away from threatening ground assaults of a Blue strat. It may be better to have rear area bases, or large centrally-located bases, spawning into Strat locations, rather than front line bases? (This is a good example of a potential spawn placement guideline I was wondering about above).
Another thing that looks unusual to me is the mutual supporting spawns between the Red Vbases in southern Norway (V139) and V136 in eastern Germany (Cologne?). It just doesn't look realistic to me that two Vbases separated by this distance, with intervening bases between them, would support each other in this way. Just my impression, for what it's worth.
I might also suggest that front line Vbases should open avenues of ground attack into enemy territory, so for example the Blue Vbases V155 and V159 in Spain should have spawns supporting ground assaults against the closest Red bases, and likewise for the Red Vbases (V138 and V140) in Spain - they should have spawns into the nearest Blue bases?
I'm very excited about the spawn arrangement in North Africa (apart from a front line base, Blue A94, with a spawn into a Strat). It looks to me like it will encourage the kind of back and forth base-hopping assaults that were characteristic of the ground war in North Africa.
<S> for all your hard work on this terrain!
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Oboe, I generally view spawn setups as follows: Every base needs 2 spawns in, with no more than 4 spawns out. Limiting spawn outs bases on air field size might be workable. I have been redoing the spawns, trying to clean them up, eliminate long distance spawns (V139/V136). I will post a new updated map of what I have done so far, later today.
I had been trying to keep the v-base separated from the enemy bases, and utilize them more for support and resupping. Remember any airfield has a VH to allow gv attacks cross country. That is not however set in concrete.
I will go back and review the strat locations again, we don't want another Buzzsaw strat attack right off the bat. :aok
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Here is the latest map with spawn updates as well.
We could change a few bases around for gv cross country spawns. Change A106 to a vbase, and 2 way spawns to v136. Change A24 to a vbase with 2 way spawns to V155. Finally install 2 way spawns between V151 and V146.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=34973)
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I was curious about where the bases are located in the real world, so I built a political map overlay. I couldn't find a matching map projection, so I had to piece the map together with lots of skewing, warps, distorting, etc - but I think its close enough for my purposes. I've added yellow dotted line international borders, and reduced the opacity enough so you can still see the bases, and which city/towns and countries they may represent.
I'm REALLY looking forward to this map. Could be the best addition to AH this year for those who like WWII history and bombing raids. I think Kenai has built in interesting spawn arrangements for exciting game play, and Switzerland is sortof reserved for tank-town type battles.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404260.0;attach=35055)
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Very interesting Oboe, seems we did manage to get things close. :D
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Latest map update, showing all gv spawns and PT spawns, Bases are pretty much set now. Uncapturable bases have been set as well.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=35091)
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Imagining this map up in the MA almost makes me salivate...
I don't see any bases marked as non-capturable though. Aren't they supposed to be identified with red circles with a diagonal line?
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They are set on the map, but they do not show up when the map is put in the Special Arena. :headscratch:
None of the existing maps show them either, must be strictly an MA display.
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Here is what I hope is the final version....... THanks to Oboe for all his input & feedback from Hitech.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=35141)
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I think it looks fantastic, Kenai! Thanks for all your hard work on this map. Really looking forward to seeing how this plays out in the MA.
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This should be the last one. I have gone over the spawns, the elevations and terrain types to many times to count lol. I believe this is the final one.
I hope to get this to Hitech this next week for his review, after that I hope to see it in rotation. Again I would like to thank Oboe for his continued support and suggestions to numerous to mention, Hitech for his direction, and all those that have suggested changes and have given encouragement.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=404572.0;attach=35169)
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:x Fingers crossed for a quick approval and insertion into the game, Jimmy.
It looks to be a brilliant terrain and I think we've addressed play balance adequately. Hopefully we get a chance to see soon how it plays in the MA!
:salute
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Good Luck Kenii I hope it makes it in soon!!!
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Good Luck Kenii I hope it makes it in soon!!!
Thank you Fugitive, time will tell, but I believe we have a good working map. :D
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Thanks for all of your hard work and time spent on trying to give us all a good time!
Eagler
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so did it become main arena?
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Nope, it's been submitted but it appears nothing has happened on HTC's end yet.
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Nope, it's been submitted but it appears nothing has happened on HTC's end yet.
Give it two weeks.