Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Wiley on April 01, 2014, 11:32:33 AM
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I've been thinking about it for a while, and a thread in GD got me thinking it might be an opportune moment to ask the question in here.
I have my general schtick I use when a guy points his nose at me from way out looking to shoot me. I put him at about 10 o'clock, nose down, and turn into him as he tries to take the shot or blows through not pulling the trigger. Generally speaking, assuming we're both high-E, what's the best way to optimize taking advantage of his attempted HO? Do you get him to miss by as little as possible on the way in, or go wider to ensure he misses? Is the smart move to conserve E and reset, or should you pull as hard as you can to get to his six? If it's situational, what parameters change the response?
I guess I'm looking to optimize how I go about it. I practically never get hit on the way in, but I am looking for tips for myself and the peanut gallery on how to turn an attempted HO to maximum advantage.
Wiley.
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Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots. :)
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The only times I get killed by a head on shots are when I commit to the HO also. I never get killed by a ho I avoid. All I do is move around a little just outside 1k.
I don't consider a ho at the to of a loop to be the typical setup ho we're talking about here.
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Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots. :)
The avoidance is easy. A lot of people say "The guy who tries for the HO on initial merge is at a disadvantage." I want to know how to maximally exploit the situation.
The only times I get killed by a head on shots are when I commit to the HO also. I never get killed by a ho I avoid. All I do is move around a little just outside 1k.
I don't consider a ho at the to of a loop to be the typical setup ho we're talking about here.
Yeah, once you're into the turning aspect of things, it's a different beast. As far as I'm concerned, if you're maneuvering hard with the guy and he gets guns on you, the orientation of your plane is irrelevant. The fact that he can get guns on you means you lost.
Wiley.
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Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots. :)
Ok.
The 109 driver sees the Hurri and drives in for the HO kill
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/6071/ibcx.png)
The Hurri slips to the side and drops a bit
(http://imageshack.us/a/img826/8861/xocu.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img560/8704/umh0.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/843/i3nz.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img199/9238/c7o.png[img]
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img32/3843/a7w.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/2613/tu75.png)
2nd attempt .... 1 minute later
(http://imageshack.us/a/img836/6527/h3vn.png[i/img]
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img829/2685/qbs.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img534/9621/cjpy.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img94/5167/stz7.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img42/471/9t5.png)
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Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.
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Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.
To me that sounds like he's flying to where you're going to be, anticipating what you're going to do. It's important to give him a difficult problem to solve determining where you're going to be. I quite often either start with a gentle pull with my lift vector to either side of the bandit and either pull tighter as he gets near gun range, or start pulling fairly hard and then slacking it off to go straighter. The idea is to not give him a consistent arc to aim at to mess up his anticipation of your movement.
Sometimes, you're still going to get tagged just because he either guessed right or missed what he thought you were going to do, but that's the way things go sometimes.
Wiley.
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Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.
109K
tater gun
lob like 10 rounds into his direction, you might die too, but after losing 2-3 tempons in a row, he wont try that any more.
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Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.
do not pass directly below his nose. always have a little off side component. This way, to get the shot he has to move in more than one axis simultaneously which makes aiming much more difficult. The second thing to do is to fly a curved path so it is harder to extrapolate the future gun solution.
Regarding a previous question, what puts him is a disadvantage is that by committing to the HO he is giving up lead turning you. His only option is to steam ahead and build a good separation before trying anything.
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HO claims is often too used as an excuse for a lost merge and kill.
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Separation.... Separation... Separation...
at least 800 vertically and 800 horizontally - why do people want to go dead-on?
More separation more options...
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Separation.... Separation... Separation...
at least 800 vertically and 800 horizontally - why do people want to go dead-on?
More separation more options...
Now that's interesting. When I avoid the HO, we probably pass within 4-500 yards of each other, depending on what he does. When I'm merging with someone, I tend to want to get close. My general reasoning is, I don't want to give him too much room to turn to me to get guns on. What options does the wide separation give you?
Wiley.
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2 things...
1) It will tell me what the enemy plane wants to do on the merge and plenty of time to respond to it. And more importantly it gives me a better idea of their energy state.
2) Gives you further options than a close direct merge. If you are dead head-on it can tend to be who has the most energy or who plays the dumbest! But a separated merge will openly tell you whether you have to be looking for a overshoot right away or beat them out with energy...
The more direct you are, the harder it can become to gauge energy states, the more breathing room you can observe the plane more closely and not fear the random snap shot.
You can pretty much have the enemy aircraft do all the maneuvering for you if they choose to commit to the fight while you let them come to you.
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Now that's interesting. When I avoid the HO, we probably pass within 4-500 yards of each other, depending on what he does. When I'm merging with someone, I tend to want to get close. My general reasoning is, I don't want to give him too much room to turn to me to get guns on. What options does the wide separation give you?
Wiley.
my opinion, for what its worth as I'm not a "Top Gun" by any means, is it's ok to be 400-500 yards of each other in a merge, but you had better be well off the 180 degree line of flight. By that I mean if you fly head on to the other plane you will be passing each other 180 degrees out.... he heading south, you heading north, 180 degrees. Being well off that 180 degrees means you should already be a third of the way through your first move and looking to see which way he is going.
Morph told me once that when you pass the 3-9 line of the other aircraft you had better have had made your first move or your already behind. That is where I see the "HOer" giving up any advantage. By going for the HO is is giving you the time and room to make the first move and get "ahead" in the fight.
The main disadvantage of being in that 400-500 range is you are in gun range and a good shot will kick the rudder and try to rake you as you pass, but again, if that is his first move he has given you the advantage again by not manuvering for a kill, but throwing it away for an "ify" shot.
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The trick is offset and force their nose down for the shot. Make them going for the shot put themselves in a bad position. Eg. going nose down on an initial merge almost always gets you in a bad spot. AS you pass the bandit coming downhill you should be merging verticle as he goes past. This should fairly easily give you the bandits 6 as he'll be accelerating coming down hill and you can easily get your nose around quicker coming uphill and decellerating. So you normally end up with a higher speed bandit below in a defensive position, with you in a slower speed but superior postion. It's simple physics, the key is just getting them to commit nose low going for the shot.
:salute
BigRat
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Tempests (*cough*wussboi*cough*) are especially good at this,
:aok
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The trick is offset and force their nose down for the shot. Make them going for the shot put themselves in a bad position. Eg. going nose down on an initial merge almost always gets you in a bad spot. AS you pass the bandit coming downhill you should be merging verticle as he goes past. This should fairly easily give you the bandits 6 as he'll be accelerating coming down hill and you can easily get your nose around quicker coming uphill and decellerating. So you normally end up with a higher speed bandit below in a defensive position, with you in a slower speed but superior postion. It's simple physics, the key is just getting them to commit nose low going for the shot.
:salute
BigRat
That makes sense. It's kind of the result of what I'd been doing, but it really helps me refine things when I have a 'why' to work from. Thanks, BigRat.
Wiley.
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Good stuff ty gentlemen.
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BigRat is spot on, was going to put my reply to this thread but I am glad I read through all comments first. BigRat's answer covers it completely the way I see it, better than I could have put it too.
But I can put in my version anyway.. :D
Forcing the hoer to dive for the aim, and at the same time as you make an angle to one side he will have to dive even harder than you to force lead on you, and he will also have to calculate for your angle by using about all control surfaces on his plane to make the shot. This will be a very hard shot to make, and performed perfectly on your end you will be lower than him on the re-merge and already started your climb while he still racing downwards trying to pull out of it before he can get around. His best choice by then is to just continue to run downhill, the merge is lost on his part because you will be on his 6 very shortly. :aok
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In broad terms, where I was going wrong was I wasn't being aggressive enough with my turn, I was thinking it was time to conserve E. I've been having a lot of success with a lot of guys pulling hard after that merge, in many cases he does just blow through keeping his speed, but I usually have favorable position to start running him down. <g>
Wiley.
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That makes sense. Thanks, BigRat.
Wiley.
Why don't I ever get that response while explaining my latest toy purchase to my wife :headscratch:
:salute
BigRat
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Given that you pull this off successfully and merge nose up under your opponent while he is still in his dive you absolutely should be aggressive about your turn. Unless offcourse he is climbing out high to re-set the fight to his favor, this could be the case if he is in a better climber than you. Say a 190 or a K4 vs your 47M. But you should see this early enough to not fall into the trap of pulling back under him, while you should rather just abort the aggressive turn and just make some distance to gain back some energy to work with.
Then we are back to square one, he is high and coming for the ho while you zoom down to one side making his shot hard all over again till he makes a mistake or falls for the temptation of committing to the hard turn. ;)
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The trick is offset and force their nose down for the shot. Make them going for the shot put themselves in a bad position. Eg. going nose down on an initial merge almost always gets you in a bad spot. AS you pass the bandit coming downhill you should be merging verticle as he goes past. This should fairly easily give you the bandits 6 as he'll be accelerating coming down hill and you can easily get your nose around quicker coming uphill and decellerating. So you normally end up with a higher speed bandit below in a defensive position, with you in a slower speed but superior postion. It's simple physics, the key is just getting them to commit nose low going for the shot.
:salute
BigRat
Great description of using the "Energy Egg" concept. :aok
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The only flaw in Big Rat's post is when you are dealing with a super climber match with an average climber. The K models as an example can be nose down at the merge and still achieve position if there is enough mismatch in two planes. The only counter I have found is blow through, watch for enough spread to turn back for the second merge hopefully as Latrobe says give him a more complicated gun solution and a snap shot.
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A lot of people say "The guy who tries for the HO on initial merge is at a disadvantage."
A lot of people say things that simply aren't true, and this is one of those things. Real fighter pilots are trained to fire weapons on head on merge. Doing so does not implicitly prevent you from lead turning and otherwise doing that pilot sh**. But in real life two plans converging head to head at a combined 800 mph would go from being a barely visible dot to blasting by you so quick that your window to identify, aim, and shoot would be limited. In AHII you have the icon from 6K which greatly improves the probability of hits on a head on pass, plus so many people are good at gunnery. This tends to turn head on passes into a coin-toss situation that will end with one plane shot down and the other at least badly damaged almost every single time, so most experienced players tend to avoid that no-win situation.
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Real fighter pilots are trained to fire weapons on head on merge.
Real fighter pilots are trained with the crawl-walk-run concept of employing the aircraft/weapons system using BFM/ACM to effectively manage energy to get the kill, not a one move fits all. :salute
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Real fighter pilots are trained with the crawl-walk-run concept of employing the aircraft/weapons system using BFM/ACM to effectively manage energy to get the kill, not a one move fits all. :salute
Robert Shaw, for instance, suggests firing on a front quarter pass when practical for psychological reasons and to possibly do some damage. But as far as I can tell, there is a major difference in how easy it is to line up a front quarter shot on the merge in RL versus our game, head ons have much higher lethality in game I think. If everyone went for the head on all the time though, then the fights would be nothing but boring coin tosses with near mutually assured destruction. That is the real reason for avoiding the HO, not some false idea that it is inherently a disadvantage.
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I've found it interesting the last little while since I've gotten more aggressive on my lead turn to get on the guy. If he's trying to one pass haul ass, I may burn more E on that first turn, but I get headed in his direction a lot sooner, which means he has less time to gain separation. I've also been finding more often than not I've gained angles if he sticks around to fight.
Still rarely get tagged on the way in, so I say feel free to try to shoot me, same as any other time.
Wiley.
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Robert Shaw, for instance, suggests firing on a front quarter pass when practical for psychological reasons and to possibly do some damage. But as far as I can tell, there is a major difference in how easy it is to line up a front quarter shot on the merge in RL versus our game, head ons have much higher lethality in game I think. If everyone went for the head on all the time though, then the fights would be nothing but boring coin tosses with near mutually assured destruction. That is the real reason for avoiding the HO, not some false idea that it is inherently a disadvantage.
Shaw's writings are certainly a place to gain a solid foundation of the basics of air combat. It's a matter of reading and applying it. Then practice, practice, practice,............and then practice some more. :salute
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I've also been finding more often than not I've gained angles if he sticks around to fight.
If you are gaining angles, that indicates your timing for the lead turn is working and you've built turning room. :aok