Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: seano on April 11, 2013, 05:13:05 PM
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please disable all enemy icons. lets keep it real. ye i know i can disable them myself, but across the board would be awesome and lead to a more real flight experience.
how about a no enemy icon arena? good way to try it out. thank you
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how about a no enemy icon arena? good way to try it out. thank you
we had that for a long time - AvA
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If you want to be legally blind and not even allowed to drive a car, let alone a fighting machine in WW2, then yes turn icons off.
It's nothing more than elitist chest-thumping for an arbitrary handicap made up by a select few and forced upon the masses.
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ALT+I. Till it says friendly icons only!!! BOING! Wish granted.
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we had that for a long time - AvA
Still do!
- oldman
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Still do!
Thank you. Wasn't sure about that so I was a bit careful with my wording :)
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please disable all enemy icons. lets keep it real. ye i know i can disable them myself, but across the board would be awesome and lead to a more real flight experience.
how about a no enemy icon arena? good way to try it out. thank you
DO IT IN THE CUSTOM ARENA
No icons at all for both sides is the best!(not recommended for the MA though)....
Its fast passed exiting and takes split second decision making. it's an incredible adrenaline rush..
Disregard the critics
who state it's as if flying legally blind. Their opinions are not based in actual long term experience no mater how radioactive they present..
Both styles are fun in their own right.
Icons on is a blast and a must for the MA.
No icons is equally enjoyable
for a special event or historically based custom arena. Just look at FSO they limit the icon range. no icon is the same idea as limited icons but presented in a more purist form IE same idea but more intense..
Both settings have there place when presented correctly..
Personally I see no enemy icons is a bastardization of the whole concept and view it as a watered down.
what happens with NO enemy icons
is that friendly's tend to gang bang once a bandit is spotted because they can plainly see the friendly's icons chasing something...
With no icons at all on
you need to communicate with your wing men give headings and call your position.There is a far greater level of uncertainty of who is friend or foe until you get within the 400-800k range. ]That greatly reduces gang banging and makes evasive ACM far more effective.
With only enemy icons on
it kills that effect and there is far more of a gang bang effect.... not as severe as seen in some arenas were icons are set at 6k though.. Just look at arenas set at 6k icons... you cant argue the gang effect that takes place there were players all the way from 6k out can see whats happening and jump into a fight.
Both styles have merit both are fun.
Taking sides call folks elitist or dweeb is narrow minded and short sited.. do your own thing in a custom arena level the MA as it is its the bread and butter of AH..
The customs is were its at
for settings do it there get a group together and grow a custom server following that's what I'm working on It will be a custom NO icon ARENA called www.fogofwar.info (http://www.fogofwar.info) may not be huge or for the masses but it will be fun for those you like that style...
seano you can do the same you can make your own custom arena that has No enemy icons and grow it over time if correctly promoted..
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Disregard the critics
who state it's as if flying legally blind. Their opinions are not based in actual long term experience no mater how radioactive they present.
Actually the claim is based on tested data. But you're free to continue your delusions.
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Actually the claim is based on tested data. But you're free to continue your delusions.
The only delusion here is that there is only one correct perspective from which to enjoy this cartoon.
I base my data on first effort and hands one experience in developing new skills beyond the status quo.
Flying no icons is a developed skill. If you take away the icon your forced to ,learn and develop new ways to see and find cons. To enjoy it you must let go of your current means to view contacts. It actually becomes far more natural feeling. Eventually you will find the icons more of a distraction..
Here is an analogy...
Some like to fly fish.... some like to put a worm on a hook.... both work... Each person derives their own enjoyment from there chosen method...neither is wrong.. To each There own...
There is no reason to be dogmatic about it
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The only delusion here is that there is only one correct perspective from which to enjoy this cartoon.
I base my data on first effort and hands one experience in developing new skills beyond the status quo.
Flying no icons is a developed skill. If you take away the icon your forced to ,learn and develop new ways to see and find cons. To enjoy it you must let go of your current means to view contacts. It actually becomes far more natural feeling. Eventually you will find the icons more of a distraction..
Here is an analogy...
Some like to fly fish.... some like to put a worm on a hook.... both work... Each person derives their own enjoyment from there chosen method...neither is wrong.. To each There own...
There is no reason to be dogmatic about it
Well stated raven :aok
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more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
I understand how Icons from far away replicate the vision of the eye, but once its close the huge Icon goes far beyond real vision, and makes it basically imposable to lose vis on the con.
icon normal as it is now at distance, as the con gets closer have it get smaller.... at 800 the text disappears....at 400 it becomes a small red dot.
this would be perfect IMO
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wouldnt hurt to have 1 more arena with the full late war plane set. its not like there are other arenas taking up space. and if perks were counted i garuntee it would not be as dead as ww1, early war and mid war all combined.
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Flying no icons is a developed skill. If you take away the icon your forced to ,learn and develop new ways to see and find cons.
or new people can cancel their account faster than their 2 week trial expires. it is already hard enough to fly a plane and with no icons they also have to be flying against ghosts.
I have been to the ava several times and I couldnt tell the planes apart from the shadows and that is when i was within 1k distance. but if you insist on trying to make player play your game, remember one thing, people vote with their presence in this game and there's a reason why the ava only has a few members at a time while the ma has several hundred.
I keep telling people that the majority of the players dont really come here to learn new skills. but just to drink a couple of beers, bs with some good friends and tell some exaggerated stories about the big mean plane that got away.
semp
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or new people can cancel their account faster than their 2 week trial expires. it is already hard enough to fly a plane and with no icons they also have to be flying against ghosts.
I have been to the ava several times and I couldnt tell the planes apart from the shadows and that is when i was within 1k distance. but if you insist on trying to make player play your game, remember one thing, people vote with their presence in this game and there's a reason why the ava only has a few members at a time while the ma has several hundred.
I keep telling people that the majority of the players dont really come here to learn new skills. but just to drink a couple of beers, bs with some good friends and tell some exaggerated stories about the big mean plane that got away.
semp
no icons inst for new players
Its for players that want something different and new after they have learned the sim..
That's why I said leave the MA as it is
Because its HTC bead and butter.
Folks can start out in the MA learn the basics of a sim if that gets "same old same old" they can move to an arena that offers short icon ranges if that gets boring they can move to a no icon arena like AvA or custom arena... This way there is something for all at any level and you don't exclude anybody..
more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
I understand how Icons from far away replicate the vision of the eye, but once its close the huge Icon goes far beyond real vision, and makes it basically imposable to lose vis on the con.
icon normal as it is now at distance, as the con gets closer have it get smaller.... at 800 the text disappears....at 400 it becomes a small red dot.
this would be perfect IMO
:aok
Ink That is a great Concept in other Sims you can actually set the icons like that if your hosting an arena under dot commands. It's kind of an intermediate setting.
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If you want to be legally blind and not even allowed to drive a car, let alone a fighting machine in WW2, then yes turn icons off.
It's nothing more than elitist chest-thumping for an arbitrary handicap made up by a select few and forced upon the masses.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/blankstare1_zpsf0d3f87e.jpg) (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/jimsom88/media/blankstare1_zpsf0d3f87e.jpg.html)
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but if you insist on trying to make player play your game, remember one thing, people vote with their presence in this game and there's a reason why the ava only has a few members at a time while the ma has several hundred.
You mean all we have to do is turn icons on to MA standards and the AvA will be full day after day and night after night?
Golly gee wilikers!! why have we never thought of that or tried it?
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exactly, has nothing to do with limited play set that the majority seem not to like.
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You mean all we have to do is turn icons on to MA standards and the AvA will be full day after day and night after night?
Golly gee wilikers!! why have we never thought of that or tried it?
ok there's 2 reasons. icons and you know the other.
semp
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ava is dead on arrival because the planes are usually sucky. give us no icons in a main arena please. you guys tried arena capping for a year before getting rid of it! if all the good playrs play in the no icon arena, the sheep will follow.
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ava is dead on arrival because the planes are usually sucky. give us no icons in a main arena please. you guys tried arena capping for a year before getting rid of it! if all the good playrs play in the no icon arena, the sheep will follow.
Anything other than late war bird is a sucky plane in your opinion right? :headscratch:
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more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
I understand how Icons from far away replicate the vision of the eye, but once its close the huge Icon goes far beyond real vision, and makes it basically imposable to lose vis on the con.
icon normal as it is now at distance, as the con gets closer have it get smaller.... at 800 the text disappears....at 400 it becomes a small red dot.
this would be perfect IMO
I really like that concept
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I suggested ink's idea a few years ago in the wishlist. I got told to just turn icons off when they get close manualy. I would still love this idea to be tried out.
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I really like that concept
except in a furball you will have several airplanes both friendly and foe all around and hard to tell who's who. remember lots of us are getting up there in years and we need reading glasses to even see the big icons we have now.
semp
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Disregard the critics
who state it's as if flying legally blind. Their opinions are not based in actual long term experience no mater how radioactive they present..
Unmitigated BULLPOOP, and a direct insult aimed at me.
Raven has insulted anyone that brings any kind of facts to the argument. He's an unapologetic IL2 no-icons fan and has repeatedly imposed his "agree with me or I insult you in any way I can" approach to no-icons.
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Every other flight sim I play I fly with no icons with no problems. AcesHigh is no different. It's just personal preference. I prefer no icons as long as everyone has no icons
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Not that it would convince those who insist that a few are forcing something on the unwilling, but maybe we should try a survey where we invite people who played in the arena both when we had enemy icons off and when we turned them back on.
Oh wait we already did that.
Your side lost..... badly.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/noiconforkrusty_zps8595a6e3.png) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/avacmstaff/media/noiconforkrusty_zps8595a6e3.png.html)
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Unmitigated BULLPOOP, and a direct insult aimed at me.
Raven has insulted anyone that brings any kind of facts to the argument. He's an unapologetic IL2 no-icons fan and has repeatedly imposed his "agree with me or I insult you in any way I can" approach to no-icons.
Now that's BULLPOOP :lol
You posted before I wrote a word. You drew first blood...... Saying people are chest thumping and elitist is rather insulting.
Berating folks for the mention of flying no icons in the way you do requires somebody to put your approach in check..
further thinking folks wont remember what you wrote on the first page of this thread is even more of an insult to ones intelligence Dr. The below post quote in red clearly demonstrates your Hypocrisy
It's nothing more than elitist chest-thumping for an arbitrary handicap made up by a select few and forced upon the masses.
If the above initial post you made one the first page of this thread isn't insulting I don't know what is. Perhaps you should read the thread over from the start refresh your memory.
If you read my responses they are not insulting they are simple facts they are delivered with a respectful tone as well.
Please do not attempt to skew reality.
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ava is dead on arrival because the planes are usually sucky. give us no icons in a main arena please. you guys tried arena capping for a year before getting rid of it! if all the good playrs play in the no icon arena, the sheep will follow.
AVA is dead because people want to fly their "hot rods". The restrictive plane set turns them off. AVA regulars have tried many different things to draw players in and have at times increased the popularity .....for a short time. Even if the AVA opened up all aircraft it would STILL have a hard time drawing people in and this was proved when the had split the MAs into two. People wanted to be where the "crowd" was and so they while having the choice of the AVA setup just like the MA they would still go for the MA because that was where the crowd was. HTC didn't "try" arena capping, they enforced it. Had the population numbers stayed the same (600-800 players prime time) we would STILL be playing in split main arenas.
Turning off the icons in the MA would result is a huge drop in population much like the "night time" did way back when. You have to remember that HTC is running a business here. Doing something like this would kill their subscription rate. I also doubt very much that the "good players" would just jump on board with this idea either. Many area "good" because of the extra info they have due to the icons. Sure, I'm sure many would "learn" to get better at flying with out icons, but look at how many people refuse to learn how to fight and just go around HOin everything until they die and re-up to do the same thing.
Not that it would convince those who insist that a few are forcing something on the unwilling, but maybe we should try a survey where we invite people who played in the arena both when we had enemy icons off and when we turned them back on.
Oh wait we already did that.
Your side lost..... badly.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/noiconforkrusty_zps8595a6e3.png) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/avacmstaff/media/noiconforkrusty_zps8595a6e3.png.html)
Those percentage numbers really hold up for your side of the "argument", but what was the total number of those polled? 25-30 people?
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I would like a more sophisticated icon system as I think the current system errs too far in the icon's direction.
The purists who want no icons, in my experience, don't want to fight so much as they want to ambush. Also, look at the non-historical results in the AvA where flying as low as possible so as to be invisible against the terrain while seeing the higher guys against the sky is a common and successful tactic.
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Those percentage numbers really hold up for your side of the "argument", but what was the total number of those polled? 25-30 people?
We invited close to 100. Probably had 40 or 50 who responded. I'm not sure, because I no longer have access to that site, just found a couple of pictures I still had.
The purists who want no icons, in my experience, don't want to fight so much as they want to ambush. Also, look at the non-historical results in the AvA where flying as low as possible so as to be invisible against the terrain while seeing the higher guys against the sky is a common and successful tactic.
That happens from time to time, but even that can be a fun different experience. In my experience, all fights end up on the deck regardless of icons.
I never tout no enemy icons as realistic, just a different experience for those who would like something unique.
I do feel that it looks more immersive.
Where no enemy icons really work well in my opinion is in sea terrains and we do run a lot of those.
Those who think we are trying to set up an opportunity to game some advantage are way off base.
Those who do well in other arenas also do well in this one, it's not that friggin hard. All we have ever done was try to give players a different experience.
If you want to see the history of this setting go to the AvA forum starting about page 34 or 35.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,284901.0.html
It really created a lot of new excitement for the arena. Of course it faded after a while and after much arguing in summer of 2011, we decided to try turning them back on.
Well, we got no new converts and almost zero of those who screamed loudest about the no enemy icon settings ever showed up in the arena anyway.
All that we accomplished was to lose several regulars without gaining replacements.
That's why the next time we surveyed players, we didn't open it to just anyone who states strong opinions but will never enter AvA even if they get the settings they want. We compiled names of those we had seen in the arena, names from the pilots statistics of those who were there in both icon on and icon off months who we could match up to bbs names or who we knew how to contact were invited.
We were frankly very surprised. We really expected pro icon votes to win. At best we thought it might be around 50-50. Of course, we realize it's not a scientific poll.
Even now, there is no official policy that a staffer has to run his week with any particular icon setting. Most just choose to do what it seems that our players want, according to the best indication we have.
If we were really that intent on forcing our individual preference down peoples throats, we never would have voted to try turning them back on for several months in 2011.
I'll admit we had a lingering bad taste in our mouths after the one's who constantly insulted us and screamed so loudly about our settings totally ignored our efforts to placate them.
So no, any changes that are made won't be made simply because a few people who have never shown they have a real interest in the arena, constantly berate and deride us.
However, if you want to prove something, then open your own version of AVA in a custom arena with all your guaranteed to be popular settings.
Ought to be easy to fill it with all of the players we have supposedly driven away from AVA. Once you have shown that you can fill it day after day, month after month, come share with us your recipe for success.
what happens with NO enemy icons
is that friendly's tend to gang bang once a bandit is spotted because they can plainly see the friendly's icons chasing something...
I've never understood this. I can see that it might be different with all icons off, but don't see any difference in friendlies ganging no icon enemies and friendlies ganging red icon enemies.
I can't see how enemy icons off increases ganging over enemy icons on.
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more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
I understand how Icons from far away replicate the vision of the eye, but once its close the huge Icon goes far beyond real vision, and makes it basically imposable to lose vis on the con.
icon normal as it is now at distance, as the con gets closer have it get smaller.... at 800 the text disappears....at 400 it becomes a small red dot.
this would be perfect IMO
That's a very interesting idea! Right now everyone is dog-fighting the icon, not the plane and it's almost impossible to make a move in the MA where the other pilot will lose sight of you.
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That's a very interesting idea! Right now everyone is dog-fighting the icon, not the plane and it's almost impossible to make a move in the MA where the other pilot will lose sight of you.
just based on my own experience pand, the reason I dont like no icon settings is because i cant tell the difference between shadow and plane at almost any distance. I have 20/20 vision but my near vision, i am legally blind. even with reading glasses it's getting harder for me to see with that big icon glowing. that's one of the reasons my il2 kills went from hundreds of tanks in month to a few. by the time I see the tank clearly then it's too late to aim.
and just based on my own information most of the guys that play the game arent teens or 20's, they are guys in their late 30's+. and the reduced icon, although I wish I could play it, really sucks for us. there isnt a "we can adjust" but more like it will never happen.
semp
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just based on my own experience pand, the reason I dont like no icon settings is because i cant tell the difference between shadow and plane at almost any distance. I have 20/20 vision but my near vision, i am legally blind. even with reading glasses it's getting harder for me to see with that big icon glowing. that's one of the reasons my il2 kills went from hundreds of tanks in month to a few. by the time I see the tank clearly then it's too late to aim.
and just based on my own information most of the guys that play the game arent teens or 20's, they are guys in their late 30's+. and the reduced icon, although I wish I could play it, really sucks for us. there isnt a "we can adjust" but more like it will never happen.
semp
they have these things.....that sit on your nose( and by the size of your nose I see you will have no problem......:-)
they are called glasses...... :neener:
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they have these things.....that sit on your nose( and by the size of your nose I see you will have no problem......:-)
they are called glasses...... :neener:
then put yours own and read the sentence that begins "even with reading glasses..." :neener: :neener:
semp
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INK's suggestion to rework the Icon is interesting.
If you think about it, including the shortened name for each con is a kindness but, contributes to a certain timidness visa knowing ones own skill level in ones current ride. Polar to that, removing the name probably would bring about an epidemic of timid flying like watching a convention of blind people trying out canes in Madison Square Garden.
In the AvA, you know with some certainty what the dot is based on reading the MOTD describing the matchup. Mentally that's a kindness in disguise since you know up front what you are getting into versus the polyglot MA.
Currently we get what in the Icon while in fighter mode?
Country
Plane ID
Distance 200, 400, 600, 800, 1k, 1.5k, 2k, 2.5k, 3k, 3,5k, 4k, 4.5k, 5k, 5,5k, 5.9k
From INK:
more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
Country - To a point it's important. But, if you chose to up from a field next to a rook field to fight rooks, who cares about the chess piece in the icon. You logged on to kill "RED GUYS" and get your name in lights when you landed.
Possibly inside of 600 yards for fighters the chess piece changes to - b, k, or r.
Plane ID - In an Air Combat Simulator that provides only WW2 aircraft as your choice with no historical countries. Yes you want to know what you are facing as soon as possible. At the longest ranges it's important to know what just entered your combat air sphere. But, at say 1k-1.5k we can tell a P51 from a Bf109. Just not which version. In WW2 this was the same issue for pilots and crew, and why they learned to identify silhouettes not Hi-Def photographs.
Possibly inside of 600 yards for fighters the aircraft ID goes away since you can visually recognize the fighter or bomber.
Distance - Inside of 600 yards it's obvious what type and version of plane your con is. Also your gunsight rings do a bangup job of telling you range with the fix to the perspective and 512x512 allowing 2pix-1Mil. Especially since now the icon is under the con, and starting at 400 can be hidden by the engine deck of your fighter. Only thing you need 200-400 is something small and obvious to keep you from shooting at your countrymen by accident. Zoom would be a bit more important in cases like furballing in Hi clutter bushes for the kill shot.
Possibly in fighters: .6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5.9
Per INK's observation, a simplified Icon might not be such a bad thing for the immersion aspect of close quarters ACM. As long as something was visible at close range to let you know one P51D from another so you don't kill shoot on your countryman. I think it would remove some of the close range lazer lockon to the icon aspect of furballing. Allow a bit more last minute evasive escapes from loosing momentary sight. Currently we do walk a slight edge of the arcade line with icons inside of 1000 yards where Aces High has the supreme ACM physics engine in the industry.
Note: For the Dorks who will say just turn off enemy icons in the MA. With enemy Icons off, until I'm about 600-1k, I don't know if I'm chasing a sneeze dot on my monitor, a terrain dot, or a plane shadow. In most cases being forced to use zoom to figure it out. Suddenly I'm in the tower because I sat there looking for and not evading the sqweeker who flew up my kester. On occasion I will turn off enemy icon in the MA. It's obvious the game was not optimized for this every time I've done it in the last decade. INK's observation is an elegant compromise.
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then put yours own and read the sentence that begins "even with reading glasses..." :neener: :neener:
semp
Reading glasses sometimes wont cut it with a computer. Go to your optometrist and get a pair of computer glasses. Reading a book and a computer screen are 2 separate things.
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Reading glasses sometimes wont cut it with a computer. Go to your optometrist and get a pair of computer glasses. Reading a book and a computer screen are 2 separate things.
way ahead of you boss, way ahead :). i got mine set to read at arms lenght which is where my puter sits. I have a different set for actually reading :).
semp
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way ahead of you boss, way ahead :). i got mine set to read at arms lenght which is where my puter sits. I have a different set for actually reading :).
semp
Well then it must be the alcohol causeing thta blurriness :neener:
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bustr,
Seems to me that using b, k and r would give Rooks a bit of an advantage as the r is noticeably smaller than the b or the k. Not sure what the solution is, but I don't think it would be too bad just the use a red . for hostiles. If that is too small, then a º or ■ might work. Whenever I've been in a Rook, Bish, Knit fight I don't see many recognizing they are in a three way fight. It creates some odd behaviors.
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Not knowing if the chess icons in our enemy avatars are a registered brand thing for HTC, I was attempting to keep with the theme.
Personally 600 and in having it switch to a red dot or square above the plane would be a nice change. Or have the wingtips, rudder tip, stabilizer tips and a ring around the nose turn bright red. Or if you want to keep the country Icon, have only that in bright red over top of the con slightly smaller inside of 600.
I don't want HiTech to cut his throat. IL2 as an economic venture proves no Icons in the current era of technology and general customer tolerance for complexity and the flagalistic masochistic requirements to master no Icons is a land slide looser. Even if IL2 is a wet eyecandy dream. Money voted.
Money votes in this game by the virtue of daily numbers when you look at the MA and then the AvA(IL2 light). It's very kind and magnanimous of HiTech to look the other way while one of his customers tries to turn the AvA into IL2 and froths at the mouth in his forums proselytizing IL2 light. Doesn't hurt subscription wise to help immigrant IL2 players to feel they have a tiny bit of the homeland here in the new world. No one was really making use of the Combat Theater. So I bet with HiTech whatever comes of this Avatar exercise.
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then put yours own and read the sentence that begins "even with reading glasses..." :neener: :neener:
semp
:O
sorry cant speak with this foot between my teeth :rofl :rofl :rofl
durrrrrr
I like the R-B-K thing....
I think the fact that we cannot lose sight of the nme has a major impact on the actual fight....and it is imposable to sneak up on someone who is aware, a casual glance and bamm there is that icon....
ether way it dont matter to me, but I would love to see it get smaller closer it gets.
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:O
sorry cant speak with this foot between my teeth :rofl :rofl :rofl
durrrrrr
I like the R-B-K thing....
I think the fact that we cannot lose sight of the nme has a major impact on the actual fight....and it is imposable to sneak up on someone who is aware, a casual glance and bamm there is that icon....
ether way it dont matter to me, but I would love to see it get smaller closer it gets.
I totally understand ink but eye sight is like skill, i wish i had some :)
semp
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Wife just bought me a 24 inch monitor. Think she's trying to tell me something?
bustr: Wow what a great picture of my grand nephew.
Wife: Honey that's your grand niece......
bustr: Babes, don't get mad but, is this a steer or heifer I'm looking at on this site??
Wife: I'm not mad. But, we need to go to COSTCO. I'm just sad at this point. And the lady next door doesn't like being called "Sir" anymore.
bustr: Is that why you won't let me buy tooth past for us by myself??
Wife: Well sweetie, Jerry Curl does nothing to whiten your teeth.
bustr: I thought coconut flavored tooth past would make you happy. You love coconut.
Wife: I'd get you a 72 inch monitor except you'd go blind.
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We invited close to 100. Probably had 40 or 50 who responded. I'm not sure, because I no longer have access to that site, just found a couple of pictures I still had.
So the overwhelming win for "enemy icons off" was by 20-25 people out of the 50 that answered the poll. Not to good as compared to the HUNDREDS that play in the MAs.
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So the overwhelming win for "enemy icons off" was by 20-25 people out of the 50 that answered the poll. Not to good as compared to the HUNDREDS that play in the MAs.
No, it's actually more like 35 out of 40 chose no enemy icons. The only difference is the distance at which they wanted friendly icons. If I recall correctly we invited more than 90. Some of those we may have never reached because they were no longer on the bbs etc.
I'm sure you would like us to assume that the 40 or more who chose not to respond at all would have all been pro-icon, but we can only count the one's who did respond.
Considering the fact that no matter what the icon settings are, the ratio of players in the respective arenas will still be hundreds compared to dozens, you really have no point.
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once again, just asking for a main late war arena with the enemy icon turned off alltogether. should be very easy for hitech to get done as no re coding will be needed. late war perks will still be able to be earned, which means people will play it.
no icon means its a bad guy and shoot it down.pretty please with texas cherries on top.
maybe we could send some pizzas to the office one day, papa johns online with message......
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once again, just asking for a main late war arena with the enemy icon turned off alltogether. should be very easy for hitech to get done as no re coding will be needed. late war perks will still be able to be earned, which means people will play it.
no icon means its a bad guy and shoot it down.pretty please with texas cherries on top.
maybe we could send some pizzas to the office one day, papa johns online with message......
I'd be good with this... Would make picking and ranging much tougher as well as being able to lose your enemy during a scissors or other maneuver... Or sneaking in or out at the treetop level!
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No, it's actually more like 35 out of 40 chose no enemy icons. The only difference is the distance at which they wanted friendly icons. If I recall correctly we invited more than 90. Some of those we may have never reached because they were no longer on the bbs etc.
I'm sure you would like us to assume that the 40 or more who chose not to respond at all would have all been pro-icon, but we can only count the one's who did respond.
Considering the fact that no matter what the icon settings are, the ratio of players in the respective arenas will still be hundreds compared to dozens, you really have no point.
My point is, if you took 100 Ford guys and asked them which is better The "Cobra", the "GT 350", the "GT500", or the LX Mustang it would be a useless poll if the "Ford guys" only make up 10% of the base.
You polled a very few, and at that it was those that liked what you were doing and didn't take into account all those that tried it and left because they DIDN'T like it but didn't hang around for your poll.
It's flawed data. It would be like me saying icons off are bad because 100% of the players I polled (me and 3 friends that are about as blind as I am) said it was. See what I mean?
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once again, just asking for a main late war arena with the enemy icon turned off alltogether. should be very easy for hitech to get done as no re coding will be needed. late war perks will still be able to be earned, which means people will play it.
no icon means its a bad guy and shoot it down.pretty please with texas cherries on top.
maybe we could send some pizzas to the office one day, papa johns online with message......
It wouldn't get used much. People will mostly go to the one with the icons and most of the people who would prefer no enemy icons will go where the larger population is for gameplay reasons and a few die hard no icon folks, or perk farmers, will occupy the NEIMA.
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My point is, if you took 100 Ford guys and asked them which is better The "Cobra", the "GT 350", the "GT500", or the LX Mustang it would be a useless poll if the "Ford guys" only make up 10% of the base.
You polled a very few, and at that it was those that liked what you were doing and didn't take into account all those that tried it and left because they DIDN'T like it but didn't hang around for your poll.
It's flawed data. It would be like me saying icons off are bad because 100% of the players I polled (me and 3 friends that are about as blind as I am) said it was. See what I mean?
No, we didn't only poll known no enemy icon fans.
At the time we took the poll, all icons had been turned on in the arena for several months and we made sure to gather as many names as we could from that time.
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Think I figured out who likes no icons. Last night I bought a new monitor. 24 inch LCD. Now I can see the dots past 1000 yards with no problems at 1920x1080 32bit. With my 22inch at 1680x1050 32bit I couldn't see them.
If this is a hardware thing. Not everyone can afford the equipment to play in the AvA. And if they do in spite of that, just give those who can easy kills. Like I used to do when I "couldn't" see anyone until it was almost too late to judge anything to begin ACM.
From the jpeg Fugi posted of his PC room, he has a 27 or 32 inch monitor which would make playing no icon easy in his case. I used to show up on Thursday nights to support Waystin on his CM night in the AvA. I always ended up in a field gun or a GV unless there were enough piggies with monitors that resolved the dots near me to call out what they saw.
The MA is more honest in that everyone can see each other while the internet along with player skill levels are the greatest determination of the fun outcome per session. Before this wish and the AvA goes any farther, all of you need to come up with a benchmark for what the real hardware requirements will be to readily see Iconless dots. Well enough to make no-Icon mode fun enough for players to throw $15.00 a month at it.
Otherwise this whole post is disingenuous and nastily self serving. Seeing dots as a function of superior hardware then turns the game into hardware wars and not ACM skill. The current economy will hold the general evolution to better hardware behind for some time into the future. But, then who cares if your hardware can show you the dots while theirs can't. You suddenly become the Uber arena killer by virtue of their less than optimal hardware instead of having to face the likes of the muppets in the MA and actually be tested for your ACM ability face to face and earn Uber in a pool full of sharks.
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bustr I used to go to the ava with this guy that had a 300 dollar laptop and he could see the enemy better than me with 3 23 inch 1080p monitors. He would laugh at me when he would point out the cons and tell me where they where and I would just go "where?".
semp
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Bustr, it's a 39" 1080p tv :D and I too believe "hardware" plays a big roll. I had a decent video card in my last box and pretty much stayed at 60 fps with it. When flying with Twinboom he would spot dots long before me. Once I built this rig with a top of the line video card I spot them long before him now.
I think the reason I don't like the "no icons" thing is I have to work hard enough to fight and fly, I don't have the time to mess around an ID these planes as they wiz by. Look at how many people are complaining about the bomb drop issue.....remember less than 5% of player post on these boards. Can you imagine if you take away the info they get on the icon??? It would be worst than when we had night time.
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please disable all enemy icons. lets keep it real. ye i know i can disable them myself, but across the board would be awesome and lead to a more real flight experience.
how about a no enemy icon arena? good way to try it out. thank you
Please don't impose this on the majority. The "reality" is certainly debatable. And there already is a no-icon arena, the AVA.
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Think I figured out who likes no icons. Last night I bought a new monitor. 24 inch LCD. Now I can see the dots past 1000 yards with no problems at 1920x1080 32bit. With my 22inch at 1680x1050 32bit I couldn't see them.
If this is a hardware thing. Not everyone can afford the equipment to play in the AvA. And if they do in spite of that, just give those who can easy kills. Like I used to do when I "couldn't" see anyone until it was almost too late to judge anything to begin ACM.
...<snip>
1980x1024 on a 22" monitor? Ouch. I'm glad you were able to upgrade to a larger monitor, but standby for a cheaper, though not better solution.
Okay, my eyes are over 65 years old and looking at my monitor, even with my custom computer glasses sucks.
When I upgraded from my old 19" monitor, I did my proper research. I quickly realized that text in Word and Excel was going to look tiny with a 22" or 24" monitor at the native resolution. In Aces High, it was going to suck playing at the native monitor resolution on either size monitor. To do this, I obtained the horizontal width in inches and divided the native pixel width by the inches width. You can do the same thing.
I was running 1280x720(?), in-game on my 19" LCD. I knew I'd need to reduce the screen resolution to maintain the same view. I was willing to do it, but I caught a sale on a 27" monitor that I couldn't pass up. Call this full disclosure if you like but I was playing in the AvA on that 19" monitor and voted no enemy icons in jimson's pole. That was before my upgrade.
I already knew that I'd need to go to a 27" monitor to have the same dot size as my old 19" monitor. There's no improvement in dot size, but at least I didn't loose anything.
On your 22" monitor, you can do the same thing that I was prepared to do, and do NOW on my 27" monitor. Reduce the screen resolution in the game's Video configuration Settings when you play the game. The plane dots and everything else will become larger. I can't imagine playing at even 1680 on a 22" monitor. That would be crazy.
I'm using 1280x720 in my Video Settings. You won't believe the difference, and it doesn't take long to get used to the change.
If anyone else tries this, I hope you'll report your experience, good or bad, in this thread. It's not for me, I'm happy, it's for the rest of the community who might find confirmation helpful.
Sorry for the wall of text.
S!
Edit:
For the OPs wish, no icons in the MA, -1.
Players would feel forced into it, while in the AvA, they know it's a choice, part of the immersion factor.
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Please don't impose this on the majority. The "reality" is certainly debatable. And there already is a no-icon arena, the AVA.
Agreed... to get back to the point of this post wish. No icons has a place and its not well suited for the MA masses..No icons is for the custom arenas Not the MA....
You would chase off way to many new subscribers because there is a significant learning curve to no icon game play...Even the watered down version of only NO ENIMY ICONS takes a few weeks of steady regular play to start to pick up before it becomes second nature. If new subscribers went into an MA that was no icons they would be annihilated and most would give up an leave...Bad for growth...
On the other hand having pure no icon environments available in the custom arenas as well as the intermediate AVA "no enemy" icon arena offer a nice alternative for those seeking something different W/O adversely effecting a fine and well established HTC business model.
Perhaps the debate on the finer points on No icon play equipment resolution ect should evolve to a different dedicated thread of its own and possibly be used as a resource of information in the future...
Its not so much about equipment as it is about relearning how to find ways to spot the contacts... I have volumes on those subjects but will try to refrain from posting them here to keep on this threads original topic of no eny icons in an MA.....
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Pure no icons is a totally different animal than no enemy icons. No enemy icons is much closer to full icons as far as playing style than it is to no icons at all.
I've played IL2 and can tell you that full no icon servers consistently had a higher population than the AvA gets with any icon settings. There is a market for it, though it may not be here.
The no icon servers in IL2 have suffered no more attrition than the full icon servers there have. IL2 46 is just a very old game and Cliffs of Dover never came to fruition.
I don't think a no enemy icon MA would be successful. Most people play in the MA because it's unlimited. There is also the psychological component that the Main arena has to be the place to be. There is also a lemming effect. This is not meant to be an offensive term just that people follow to where the most people are, but it has to start that most people prefer the unlimited arena in the first place. That has a lot more to do with being able to always fly any plane you want to than it does with icon settings.
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im gonna argue this to the death. it wouldnt hurt to try it. and in case you didnt know, if you turn down your lines of resolution your long range dots are bigger.
hitech has tried a lot of things, devoted man and work hours to make a ww1 arena, which i like, but dont play too much. having a "no icon" arena will not cost them a dime, nor will it lose subscribers. you could always label it "advanced only". ava is dead because the plane set always lacks something for someone and people want to earn perks to fly jets, plain and simple. as for the people wanting to fly with the crowds, thats also understandable, im one of them. but this game needs something a little different and a little more challenging to really evolve. it wouldnt hurt to try another main late war "no enemy" icons.
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I'd be good with this... Would make picking and ranging much tougher as well as being able to lose your enemy during a scissors or other maneuver... Or sneaking in or out at the treetop level!
yes it would be tougher! thats the whole point! but it would be tougher for everyone. no one would have an edge when it came to starting a dogfight, scissors, or whatever.
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another argument, you dont hear the tank guys ever crying because they cant see the other tanks icon. and they can hide behind trees and bushes!
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also, i think fear of not knowing what type of fighter you are about to deal with scares a lot of people who are "score potatos". but not knowing is what makes it more fun. you could always add "host: you shot down so and so flying a so and so. or " so and so shot you down in a so and so.
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yes it would be tougher! thats the whole point! but it would be tougher for everyone. no one would have an edge when it came to starting a dogfight, scissors, or whatever.
Agree
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seano,
I've fought players like krupinski no icon. They still hand you your kester no icons or icons because they are good at this game regardless.
Do you realize you are admitting that you cannot compete in the MA on an equal skill level because of your Icon as the upshot of your statements? You offer "no Icons" as some kind of a magic handcuff against players more talented or more motivated than you to spend their time learning and practicing ACM. I suppose it's true that a blind man rules in a shin kicking contest against quadriplegics after you con someone into breaking all of their limbs for you.
This is the lamest self flagellation I've seen in the last decade on this forum...
From seano:
yes it would be tougher! thats the whole point! but it would be tougher for everyone. no one would have an edge when it came to starting a dogfight, scissors, or whatever.
And you pand, I didn't realize your colors ran this way by concurring with seanos reasoning.
I guess if you can't beat them heads up, you can try and con HiTech into castrating them for you with a trick to save your pride.
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Nly time I turn icons off is during a duel. Makes no different to me. Although skins come into play slot more with this. But I like the current system we have of making it OPTIONAL -1
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And you pand, I didn't realize your colors ran this way by concurring with seanos reasoning.
I guess if you can't beat them heads up, you can try and con HiTech into castrating them for you with a trick to save your pride.
I am always for more realism than less. Dogfighting, picking, or running from a plane is much more complex than an icon where you always know their range. You don't AvA much do you?
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...
and in case you didnt know, if you turn down your lines of resolution your long range dots are bigger
...
Not a good idea. On a modern LCD screen, running at anything other than the native resolution will make *everything* fuzzy.
http://www.howtogeek.com/119117/htg-explains-why-using-your-monitors-native-resolution-is-important/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/119117/htg-explains-why-using-your-monitors-native-resolution-is-important/)
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Not a good idea. On a modern LCD screen, running at anything other than the native resolution will make *everything* fuzzy.
http://www.howtogeek.com/119117/htg-explains-why-using-your-monitors-native-resolution-is-important/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/119117/htg-explains-why-using-your-monitors-native-resolution-is-important/)
Agree
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im gonna argue this to the death. it wouldnt hurt to try it.
Yes it would.
HiTech
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Yes it would.
HiTech
Sir, Hitech, can you please explain how it would hurt the overall system of the game and the players who play. more realism can't be a bad thing.
you guys always said a B-29 would never happen, it did. could you just try it out for a week? during the week? or just set one up on a friday and come back monday and see how it goes?
maybe enable dot dar map wide to ease the transition so players can tell red from green that way?
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you guys always said a B-29 would never happen
They didn't say that. Players did.
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They didn't say that. Players did.
Somewhere that myth started and it kept being repeated no matter how many times others said it wasn't true. I recall the same comments about the B-25 with the explanation given that HiTech hated the B-25 so it wouldn't be added.
seano,
The only absolute no I have ever seen anybody at HTC give is to the nuke.
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more realistic would be the icon getting smaller as the enemy gets closer, to the point of a tiny dot above plane once within say 400 yards, text disappearing.....
I understand how Icons from far away replicate the vision of the eye, but once its close the huge Icon goes far beyond real vision, and makes it basically imposable to lose vis on the con.
icon normal as it is now at distance, as the con gets closer have it get smaller.... at 800 the text disappears....at 400 it becomes a small red dot.
this would be perfect IMO
I'm on pg 2 and had to post this... Ink naild it imo, brilliant sir.
Edit
It's good as is now in the LW, I'd say a fur ball lake with no icons map?
I turn all icons off a lot of times in a fur ball just to work on my SA in the mains...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,339706.0.html
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Sir, Hitech, can you please explain how it would hurt the overall system of the game and the players who play. more realism can't be a bad thing.
you guys always said a B-29 would never happen, it did. could you just try it out for a week? during the week? or just set one up on a friday and come back monday and see how it goes?
maybe enable dot dar map wide to ease the transition so players can tell red from green that way?
Is there something we can do for you in AvA?
Or do you just think you might replicate the success of the MA by having every plane enabled for everyone but with no enemy icons?
I guess you are not advocating turning the MA into no enemy icons but adding a separate one identical in all aspects except icons?
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Is there something we can do for you in AvA?
Or do you just think you might replicate the success of the MA by having every plane enabled for everyone but with no enemy icons?
I guess you are not advocating turning the MA into no enemy icons but adding a separate one identical in all aspects except icons?
exactly. one where your perks still count and get earned.
the ava is cool and i love some of the dirt strip airfields, which i think should be used in the main arena also. but the limited plane set kills it for me and most everyone else.
the game is cool as is right now, im just trying to advocate a little more realism. , hitech, look at my post count here, ive been playing many years and dont flood the boards with bs like some people, i spend time flying the simulator....
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Ok, can't help ya there, but good luck.
Bowing out of this one now.
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seano,
You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.
1. No icons does not mean more realism.
It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.
2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?
Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)
3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.
4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.
HiTech
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Actually the claim is based on tested data. But you're free to continue your delusions.
Really? Please provide.
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Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)
HTC, taking parts from many ideas posted in this thread...
I really liked the direction INK was heading where the icons are normal from 6K and as the aircraft gets closer, the icon slowly gets smaller until it is gone (say inside of 1K or some other value). Then instead of an inside of 1K, maybe it just highlights the skin on the tips of the wings to either red or green (or Icons are always in place for friendlies regardless of range). This way, when you're in a scissors or other maneuver, you can reverse or make a move where IRL the enemy would lose sight of you for a few seconds... you would also be able to take advantage of this in game because the enemy will be unable to perform a quick scan looking for the big red icon announcing your new position.
Just a thought! :salute
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I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.
Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging. There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.
The result is different dynamic that puts weights the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-901 ia as easy to see as your Chrome P-51 is. Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?
It is the case in AVA that I can fly toward 4 enemies and I may actually fly right past them withiin 4K and they don't notice me. That results in not have to having to have the fastest plane in the game to survive. Also if one bandit engages, it's not a given that every plane within 6k will be on me too. If I break away and extend when double teammed, they may lose sight of me and so can hide down at tree top level where the prowling over head Ponies won't have atomatic bounce.
No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA would change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesite so we need icons results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to not be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.
I'd love to on enemy Icon experiments in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night. Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.
Live a little. :salute
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I'd love to on enemy Icon experiments in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night. Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.
Live a little. :salute
Some peoples' heads pretty much exploded over some crosswind, so I'd say yes.
The thing I dislike about no icons is I don't believe your hardware setup (and I'm well aware that older, lower resolution setups sometimes do in fact do better for spotting dots, so it's not that I'm arguing that only those with the best and latest can benefit) should be the single most important aspect determining your ability to fight.
Icons give everybody the same information regardless of hardware setup, settings, or personal sight issues. You shouldn't have to pass a physical to play a game effectively.
Wiley.
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Some peoples' heads pretty much exploded over some crosswind, so I'd say yes.
Heh, prompted me to go read that thread, thanks. I agree, it's fairly plain that any significant change to the MAs, even for a few minutes, will cause heads to explode.
"I only get FIFTEEN MINUTES to fly each week, and I have to put up with this no-icon stuff? Count me GONE!"
- oldman
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Heh, prompted me to go read that thread, thanks. I agree, it's fairly plain that any significant change to the MAs, even for a few minutes, will cause heads to explode.
"I only get FIFTEEN MINUTES to fly each week, and I have to put up with this no-icon stuff? Count me GONE!"
- oldman
Lol
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Really? Please provide.
It was posted more than a decade ago, I think in the Planes and Vehicles forums. I doubt the images attached to the post still exist, even if the post can be found.
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Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)
HiTech
The highlighted is very kind of you HiTech to mention. Finding a way to balance the game play so enough players always feel fighting is the point of playing this Combat Simulation versus doing anything they can to survive, must require god's own patience after all these years. In my decade of participating in your game, I've been able to see the ebb and flow of unintended consequences directly related to this aspect of human nature showcased in the arenas.
My compliments and respects to you for making your sole living under the Occam's Razor of this human idiosyncracy.
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It was posted more than a decade ago,
Then it's probably out of date.
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so i flew into a gaggle/formation of buffs going to strats. it was a real nice formation. i actually urned the icons off because there were just too many. what if we start small andmaybe just turn off enemy buff formation icons. its pretty easy to tell what kind of buff it is.
hitech, as for the trying to survive part, well isnt that what everyone triees to do anyway? i know i will do anything to try not to end up in the tower. running, turning, reversing. diving to make a p38 or 109 splat behind me.
im not advocating changing the game. im advocating a choice of a arena setting with the whole plane set. ie no enemy icon arena. wish i woulda started this sooner, april first would have been a perfect day to try it.
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The highlighted is very kind of you HiTech to mention. Finding a way to balance the game play so enough players always feel fighting is the point of playing this Combat Simulation versus doing anything they can to survive, must require god's own patience after all these years. In my decade of participating in your game, I've been able to see the ebb and flow of unintended consequences directly related to this aspect of human nature showcased in the arenas.
My compliments and respects to you for making your sole living under the Occam's Razor of this human idiosyncracy.
lol bustr; what a suckup ;-) betya HT is lappin it up with a smirk.
I can't ageee with HT's idea that no icons would not make things more realistic, well duh; of course it would. It would only just expose the other unrealistic things about the game and upset the intended design balance which makes the game unique and "Work".
- The sinews of this finely woven web of illusions and virtual grandeur rest on each piece that, together, speak a sweet song of enchantment that may lead many a pilot cast into the unrelenting realities of the LWA floor.
PS: Why not make icon ranges relative to the time of day? We can have night-time back!
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I'm reposting this, because I realized that it had so many typos it was un-readable. Hopefully this version is undertandable. :salute
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ __________________
I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.
Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging. There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.
The result is a different dynamic that weighs the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-190 is as easy to see as your chrome P-51 is. Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?
It is the case in AVA that I can fly toward 4 enemies and I may actually fly right past them withiin 4K and they don't notice me. That results in not having to have the fastest plane in the game to survive. Also if one bandit engages, it's not a given that every plane within 6k will be on me too. If I break away and extend when double teammed, they may lose sight of me and so I can hide down at tree top level where the prowling over head Ponies won't even see me.
No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA might change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesight so we need icons, results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to NOT be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.
I'd love to do an enemy Icon experiment in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night. Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.
Live a little. :salute
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I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.
Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging.
So does friendly icons only, as that is the easiest thing to do, see friendly engaged on the deck, go to him to find enemy. Doesn't improve the ganging situation.
There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.
...And is missing planes fun? Is not seeing the enemy aircraft a desirable trait for your gameplay? On the flip side, is it fun to be hit by a plane you didn't see against the ground clutter?
The result is a different dynamic that weighs the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-190 is as easy to see as your chrome P-51 is. Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?
And once again, we're back to the fact that this is a game. What if your opponent doesn't have your perfectly chosen and blended for the current terrain camo skin on his system?
No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA might change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesight so we need icons, results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to NOT be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.
But is it fun? If people desired no icon gameplay, wouldn't the AVA have been full when they were running the no icon events?
I'd love to do an enemy Icon experiment in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night. Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.
Live a little. :salute
What I'd be doing if I were actually serious about getting some no icon stuff going is one night a week, advertising the hell out of it, have a custom arena set up with no icons. Show HTC how full that arena gets with all the people coming out to fly with no icons enabled. Use your numbers to show there is a demand for this kind of gameplay. Edit: And not the first time you do it either when it's in the 'let's see what this is' phase, show a consistent weekly attendance over time.
Of course, the other possibility is it would be a ghost town because unfortunately there just aren't that many people looking for this kind of gameplay. At least you wouldn't have to worry about the player numbers cap on the custom arenas.
Wiley.
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Wiley,
At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.
All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.
So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.
But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.
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1. No icons does not mean more realism.
It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.
2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill.
Hitech, I need to buy you a drink! :cheers:
If you don't want icons, you can always turn them off. I've known a couple players that have done that in the past.
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Wiley,
At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.
All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.
So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.
But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.
im not telling hitech to do away with the current main arena. im trying to get another late war arena without enemy icons where late war perk points can be earned. people dont fly ava because they cant earn perks towards thier 262 and the plane set is usually very limited. im trying to get this just so we can try and see how it goes. being the cm in the ava takes time that i dont have. i have a 2.5 year old and 4 month old. hitech has a real airplane, im sure hes not hurting too bad when it comes to money and making payroll. not to mention taxes in texas are way cheap too. this is about trying to imprve the best ww2 flight simulator already out there.
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im not telling hitech to do away with the current main arena. im trying to get another late war arena without enemy icons where late war perk points can be earned. people dont fly ava because they cant earn perks towards thier 262 and the plane set is usually very limited. im trying to get this just so we can try and see how it goes. being the cm in the ava takes time that i dont have. i have a 2.5 year old and 4 month old. hitech has a real airplane, im sure hes not hurting too bad when it comes to money and making payroll. not to mention taxes in texas are way cheap too. this is about trying to imprve the best ww2 flight simulator already out there.
So... people avoid gameplay they would actually enjoy to maximize their perk gain...
On the upside, I've never seen that argument made on this particular issue. On the downside, I somewhat doubt it's the reason.
Wiley.
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Guys... we can never improve the game, only remind HT of stuff maybe he originally intended/hoped to do.
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So does friendly icons only, as that is the easiest thing to do, see friendly engaged on the deck, go to him to find enemy. Doesn't improve the ganging situation.
Yes you are correct to an extent. Seeing a friendly doen not mean you know who is engaged and who isn't. Requires a lot more radio communication with friendliesto have good SA. Not sure people would do it. I find most fly around like the radio doesn't work. Also what are you diving on? Brewster? 190? Spit? Probably makes a big difference to some on whether they will blow alt or not. It won't eliminate ganging, but I think it will reduce it. IT does in the AVA.
...And is missing planes fun? Is not seeing the enemy aircraft a desirable trait for your gameplay? On the flip side, is it fun to be hit by a plane you didn't see against the ground clutter?
You're making it sound like you won't see ANY enemy aircraft in that statement. Yes, being sneaky can be fun. Yes slipping past a horde if you are heavy and inbound to a base can be fun.
And once again, we're back to the fact that this is a game. What if your opponent doesn't have your perfectly chosen and blended for the current terrain camo skin on his system?
That have always been a problem with Skins. I think no want's enemy skins to be selected by the pilot, but it is a limitation of some folks computing power so we have to deal with it. My guess is that someday it won't be an issue. But again, this a limitation of the hardware, not the idea of strategy through camoflage.
But is it fun? If people desired no icon gameplay, wouldn't the AVA have been full when they were running the no icon events? What I'd be doing if I were actually serious about getting some no icon stuff going is one night a week, advertising the hell out of it, have a custom arena set up with no icons. Show HTC how full that arena gets with all the people coming out to fly with no icons enabled. Use your numbers to show there is a demand for this kind of gameplay. Edit: And not the first time you do it either when it's in the 'let's see what this is' phase, show a consistent weekly attendance over time.
Of course, the other possibility is it would be a ghost town because unfortunately there just aren't that many people looking for this kind of gameplay. At least you wouldn't have to worry about the player numbers cap on the custom arenas.
Yes it's fun. You have to be careful about Empty arenas like AVA, EW, MW, as evidence that players don't like the format. People go to the LW MA, because that's where everyone is. It's a critical mass thing. All other attemps at different game play fail because of inertia. As a result, the only valid experiment would be to have no icon night in the LWMA. I guarentee if you did, you would not suddenly see 350 players in MW, for example. It's why I suggested trying it in the LWMA. It's the only valid place to test gameplay settings.
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Guys... we can never improve the game, only remind HT of stuff maybe he originally intended/hoped to do.
And it's obvious that "no icons" wasn't something he originally hoped to do.
ack-ack
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A toggle like auto takeoff, for dynamic icons
they appear normal at maximum distances, shrink in size and loses the ID tag at 800....itll just say Knight/Bish/Rook......400 it becomes a dot in the same area...
the best of both worlds
if someone sneaks up on you and you miss the small dot if he is that close....then you need better SA,
I do think sneaking would be a bit easier, and that may make people cry
hell never mind....anything will make people cry. :rolleyes:
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Wiley,
At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.
All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.
So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.
But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.
A scathing personal attack. :uhoh
I like game theory for game theory's sake. I'm discussing, how icons affect gameplay, pluses and minuses. Discuss more....Judge less. :salute
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Yes you are correct to an extent. Seeing a friendly doen not mean you know who is engaged and who isn't. Requires a lot more radio communication with friendliesto have good SA. Not sure people would do it. I find most fly around like the radio doesn't work. Also what are you diving on? Brewster? 190? Spit? Probably makes a big difference to some on whether they will blow alt or not. It won't eliminate ganging, but I think it will reduce it. IT does in the AVA.
I think the AVA majority has quite a bit of a different mentality to the majority in the MA when it comes to ganging, there's probably a combination of factors. I'll agree with the radio comms becoming more useful, but like you say most peoples' radios don't seem to work.
You're making it sound like you won't see ANY enemy aircraft in that statement. Yes, being sneaky can be fun. Yes slipping past a horde if you are heavy and inbound to a base can be fun.
Having spent a lot of time flying no icons in the other sim and low range icons every Friday since I've been here, I can pretty much say if it's against the ground and outside of icon range, 9 out of 10 times it's effectively invisible to me.
That have always been a problem with Skins. I think no want's enemy skins to be selected by the pilot, but it is a limitation of some folks computing power so we have to deal with it. My guess is that someday it won't be an issue. But again, this a limitation of the hardware, not the idea of strategy through camoflage.
True, but the hardware's what we have to work with, and it's part of why it's a bad idea. The problem is, there are a legion of things a person can do with their hardware/settings to improve their chances to give themselves an edge over others in a no icon environment. That is bollocks. Video configuration and hardware purchasing decisionmaking should not be a critical skill relevant to the single most important aspect of the game.
Yes it's fun. You have to be careful about Empty arenas like AVA, EW, MW, as evidence that players don't like the format. People go to the LW MA, because that's where everyone is. It's a critical mass thing. All other attemps at different game play fail because of inertia. As a result, the only valid experiment would be to have no icon night in the LWMA. I guarentee if you did, you would not suddenly see 350 players in MW, for example. It's why I suggested trying it in the LWMA. It's the only valid place to test gameplay settings.
I don't know. If you had LWMA (Icons) and LWMA (No Icons) I guarantee you'd have a population in the no icon no higher than 15% of the LWMA (Icons) and most of them would be milkrunners.
With forcing it into the LWMA, I think you'd wind up with a similar situation to when TT was a thing, where you'd have a contingent that would be actively happy it was there, and a contingent that wouldn't play that day. In between them would be a majority that would tolerate it.
All I see it doing is encouraging more combat avoidance, which is prevalent enough in the game as-is.
Wiley.
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True, but the hardware's what we have to work with, and it's part of why it's a bad idea. The problem is, there are a legion of things a person can do with their hardware/settings to improve their chances to give themselves an edge over others in a no icon environment. That is bollocks. Video configuration and hardware purchasing decisionmaking should not be a critical skill relevant to the single most important aspect of the game.
If that's the case and Icons are equalizers, then I couldn't agreee more.
I don't know. If you had LWMA (Icons) and LWMA (No Icons) I guarantee you'd have a population in the no icon no higher than 15% of the LWMA (Icons) and most of them would be milkrunners.
With forcing it into the LWMA, I think you'd wind up with a similar situation to when TT was a thing, where you'd have a contingent that would be actively happy it was there, and a contingent that wouldn't play that day. In between them would be a majority that would tolerate it.
All I see it doing is encouraging more combat avoidance, which is prevalent enough in the game as-is.
Wiley.
I certainly don't want to encourage combat avoidance. I was thinking that the LWMA is, during peak hours, very crouded [much hording], and no icons might help relieve that. Which is the reason HTC [I believe] went to split arenas at one point. I agree no icons would discourage fighting when numbers are low in the Arena. I was thinking they might lead to better quality fighting when numbers are very high. But your point is well taken. :salute
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If that's the case and Icons are equalizers, then I couldn't agreee more.
And to a certain degree I agree that a colored flag visible at a glance from 3 and a half miles is a bit overkill. In my perfect world for scenarios and times when I want to play no icons, the dots at range would be no smaller than say, 1/64th of an inch diameter. That's big enough to be noticeable, but small enough to be able to be overlooked unless you take the time to scan.
Ink's idea isn't terrible, it somewhat splits the difference between being able to see them coming in at you and being able to use the angles to hide from the guy in a turnfight. A change that would have to go along with it though would be to remove the ability to hear enemy engines from the cockpit. Even currently, I use sound to follow aircraft that are out of my sight for a moment.
I certainly don't want to encourage combat avoidance. I was thinking that the LWMA is, during peak hours, very crouded [much hording], and no icons might help relieve that. Which is the reason HTC [I believe] went to split arenas at one point. I agree no icons would discourage fighting when numbers are low in the Arena. I was thinking they might lead to better quality fighting when numbers are very high. But your point is well taken. :salute
The tricky (and kind of fascinating) thing is trying to figure out why certain things work and why others don't, and what kind of effects changes would have if they were implemented. I see the train of logic you're following there with it possibly reducing the hording, but an alternative result might be people would still seek safety in numbers because they benefit from more eyes to look for bandits. If you don't know how many of them there are and where they are, you better group up for safety, right?
In an open ended game like this, I truly and deeply believe hording is literally impossible to stop unless the game actively makes it impossible. If 5 guys can do something, 10 can do it easier. 20 can do it effortlessly. That is just pretty much physics.
The other thing that gets me every single time no icons come up, people talk about how much fun it is to be able to sneak past enemy planes, to get away from the enemy low on the deck, to bounce people unawares.
You never see people talking about how much fun it is to lose an enemy plane in ground clutter, not be able to find the dot on radar, and be bounced by an altmonkey unawares.
To me, that's an indication that is because those parts really might not be all that much fun and exciting. It sucks bad enough being outflown, but to not even see what killed you really gets people angry. Look at how much vitriol gets thrown around because of people being dragged to invisible short icon Wirbles. Now apply that to enemy planes.
Just how I see it. Nice to see a difference of opinion can still be had in here without too much browbeating. :) :salute
Wiley.
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I AGREE THAT JUST STRAIGHT UP ELIMINATING ENEMY ICONS WOULD BE TOO MUCH OF A SHOCK FOR THE LWMA. BUT HAVING A SEPARATE ARENA WITH THOSE SETTINGS JUST TO TRY OUT CANT BE A BAD IDEA AT ALL.
AND YES, ITS ALL ABOUT EARNING THOSE PERKS FOR A 262 RIDE.
THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF NOT KNOWING WHAT P[LANE IS COMING AT YOU 5K OUT WOULD CHANGE THE WHOE DYNAMIC OF A FIGHT. YOU WOULDNT BE ABLE TO TACTICALLY SET YOURSELF UP FOR A "SPIT" FIGHT OR A P51 FIGHT OR WHATEVER UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY MERGED CLOSE ENOUGH TO SEE THE ACTUAL PLANE OR EVEN HEAR ITS ENGINE WHEN IT WENT BY.
HITECH, WHAT DO YOU LIKE ON YOUR PIZZA?
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HITECH, WHAT DO YOU LIKE ON YOUR PIZZA?
Cragganmore (maybe a lower case of it) .... and common sense. :D
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Vinkman,
Your sales pitch is based on your personal feelings and offering the customer noIcons to eliminate the advantage experienced by those who live in the DA practicing ACM that dominates in the LWMA. So the only response perceived by you, unless I want to insult my own intelligence is personal by my analyzing your sales pitch for what it is.
None of you are selling this concept other than from your personal feelings. So far you only offer the imagery that it effectively castrates the existing food chain as it stands in the LWMA and will magically make anyone agreeing with you superior to a muppet by that virtue if only Mr. HiTech will give you what you want. You are selling customers their own class envy of the LWMA's top of the food chain as the reason they should support your wish and vote for your dream. In the end you can deliver nothing to them other than conning them with their emotions. Eventualy the top of the food chain in the current Icon dominated LWMA if they chose to stay in the game would be the top of the food chain in your utopian arena.
I will bet the CM group for the AvA will work with you to present a once a week No Icons LWMA night to help test your as of yet unproven crowd appeal to No Icons as the next defacto standard in Aces High's evolution. Otherwise you don't have any collateral in hand to induce HiTech to change the Icon standard for all of his paying customers. Just your feelings.
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The tricky (and kind of fascinating) thing is trying to figure out why certain things work and why others don't, and what kind of effects changes would have if they were implemented. I see the train of logic you're following there with it possibly reducing the hording, but an alternative result might be people would still seek safety in numbers because they benefit from more eyes to look for bandits. If you don't know how many of them there are and where they are, you better group up for safety, right?
Yes exactly! I thought the same thing, but there would be this time period where no one knew what to do right away. things would be different, and individuals would adapt at different rates. Group think would be shattered for a time period, and the community would take some time to settle in on the new norm. It might be exactly what you said, but both the brief time period until that happened, and the eventual outcome would be interesting to watch unfold. Theories will be proven and dis-proven. Fun stuff for geeks like me.
In an open ended game like this, I truly and deeply believe hording is literally impossible to stop unless the game actively makes it impossible. If 5 guys can do something, 10 can do it easier. 20 can do it effortlessly. That is just pretty much physics.
Can't argue with that.
You never see people talking about how much fun it is to lose an enemy plane in ground clutter, not be able to find the dot on radar, and be bounced by an altmonkey unawares.
I lost a lot of guys visually that I was dog fighting with in AVA. Imagine that! I thought it was fun. To me reaction time is a great equalizer in dogfighting. If a players loses sight of you for a second or two or three, that's a big deal. Maybe every Pony wouldn't haven't run because evasive maneuvers had a high possibility of the Spit16 on his six losing sight of him for long enough for the pony to regain advantage. But I did get killed a whole lot more planes I never saw. I laughed at myself for being so clueless. I imagine you are right that in a the crouded LWMA, "bouncing" would be all the rage. But one really interesting thing I learned was that having alt in the AVA was a disadvantage because planes were easy to see against the sky, but hard to see against the ground. So alt monkeys were easy to avoid. Most would employ the tactic of attacking from below, where you would try to Zoom climb to ambush a higher bandit. How's that for a turn of events? Low plane bouncing higher planes. :lol
Yes a good discussion, thanks Wiley. :salute
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(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k488/sqacct7/dontletpeoplebringyoudown.jpg)
Oh ... and ....
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L8t1-Es5maA/Tnmscbkr0AI/AAAAAAAABDc/UUo4ihl2bXY/s1600/drcGrimReaper01.jpg)
Don't fear your icon.
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I imagine you are right that in a the crouded LWMA, "bouncing" would be all the rage. But one really interesting thing I learned was that having alt in the AVA was a disadvantage because planes were easy to see against the sky, but hard to see against the ground. So alt monkeys were easy to avoid. Most would employ the tactic of attacking from below, where you would try to Zoom climb to ambush a higher bandit. How's that for a turn of events? Low plane bouncing higher planes. :lol
Yes a good discussion, thanks Wiley. :salute
With the low planes being more difficult to see, I've read many pilots claim that's one major disparity between game and reality is that planes below you are often quite easy to see. Not sure how camo affects that, but I know I've seen it claimed by pilots on these forums more than a few times.
In the other sim's no icon events, another standard tactic was if you had alt and managed to spot his dot from afar, was to build up smash, get low six and creep him from there if the two of you were in theory alone. Made for some tense moments now and again. Also greatly increased the amount of time you spent doing belly checks, and vastly improved the value of wing pairs and wingwork. In no icon situations, it really is a bad idea to be alone, and greatly increases your 'head on a swivel' mentality when you are.
I remember one time spying a pair of P47's cruising along in formation as I was just below them going the other way. I circled in from the side and was about 200 feet below them in trail coming up on the secondary plane's six. It was really comical to see the close wing on the lead's plane dip slightly, and then immediately the plane I was trying to sneak just started to wobble spastically as he panicked and took a couple seconds to figure out what to do. I wasn't quite close enough to get a good shot from where I was, but it was certainly an amusing start to the fight.
As to Bustr's point- Do AVA perks come across to the MA's? If so that might be a great test bed to prove somebody in this thread wrong.
Wiley.
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I thought that Icon's were there to make up for the difference in detail that the human eye avails you as opposed to pixels on a computer. The Icon's are there at 5k and identify the aircraft because the human eye would be able to do that for itself if it was reality and not a computer screen.
If that is true than the Icon's "simulate" more closely what RL visibilty would afford you and therefore I want the Icon's to remain as they are now.
And Wiley, did you use the aformentioned term "alt-monkey" negatively in an earlier post on this subject? :confused: :confused: :confused:
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I thought that Icon's were there to make up for the difference in detail that the human eye avails you as opposed to pixels on a computer. The Icon's are there at 5k and identify the aircraft because the human eye would be able to do that for itself if it was reality and not a computer screen.
If that is true than the Icon's "simulate" more closely what RL visibilty would afford you and therefore I want the Icon's to remain as they are now.
And Wiley, did you use the aformentioned term "alt-monkey" negatively in an earlier post on this subject? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:
My main reason for saying NO! The icons give data that would be able to be seen IRL that can't be due to the graphical limitations of our monitors and how display works. Distance is overdone by the size of the object. From the air, you'd be able to ID the country, tank type, color of the paint, and if Fritz has his head poking out of the hatch or not. In here, if you're not 5Ft AGL going >100MPH, you'll never be able to get that information.
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icons only simulate seeing at a distance at best....and completely over compensates for it at close distance.
a planes camo would most certainly allow him to fly under/over enemy without being spotted....losing the con while fighting and them escaping.....the icons do not allow this.
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This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it.... :rock ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.
No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..
In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons.... It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..
Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
Don't for get WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…
FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.
In THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever..... Build it and somebody will like it...
But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing... Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas.. Heck I used to criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..
Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully.. :aok
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Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:
No we don't. It's a myth. Show me the data.
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This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it.... :rock ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.
No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..
In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons.... It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..
Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
Don't for get WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…
FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.
In THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever..... Build it and somebody will like it...
But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing... Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas.. Heck I used to criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..
Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully.. :aok
All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. :salute
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I don't believe it's because the LWMA (actually Dale and the rest of the HiTech gang) has found the ultimate settings formula.
A faith based argument. Show me the data.
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All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. :salute
While critical mass is indeed critically important, it's not only about that, and not the only reason 'everybody' is in LW. Once upon a time the critcal mass was in th EW arena, and not only for a few days but for a long time. Still, players trickled back to LW. LW is the main choice because of it's settings. But of course all the minor arenas do suffer from the "I'd go there if there were somebody" paradoxon. I'm not an exception to this, I would spend a sizeable time of my playing time in WWI if there was only more actvity.
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All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. :salute
Some truth to this but it has to be recognized that people prefer it in the first place for it to have reached "critical" mass.
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This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it.... :rock ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.
No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..
In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons.... It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..
Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
Don't for get WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…
FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.
In THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever..... Build it and somebody will like it...
But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing... Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas.. Heck I used to criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..
Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully.. :aok
This is a good post.
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I am amendable to turning icons off. That's how our grandfathers did it and they were half blind! Seriously though if 25% of the players like it and 75% do not, it might be fun to try it every fourth map or someodd. :uhoh :bolt:
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Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:
Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.
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Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.
Yup. I've often wished that the FAA made everyone paint his plane blaze orange. For that matter, it's tough enough to see a plane that's above the horizon (unless it's airliner size).
While no-icons initially does encourage people to swim down in the reeds so that they can spot higher planes - and not be spotted by them - you find after you become accustomed to the setting that altitude still is a huge advantage. Generally you just fly about 6k AGL so that you're above an enemy's zoom climb range.
As others have posted, the nicest thing (to me!) about no-icons is that real world tactics suddenly make sense, and combat occurs at historic ranges (none of the 600-yard sniping stuff).
But I think it would be a huge error to have no-icons in the MA. It takes several hours to get used to the setting, during which time you're constantly getting surprised and shot down. I doubt that most people would enjoy no-icons enough to put up with the learning curve.
- oldman
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Vinkman,
Your sales pitch is based on your personal feelings and offering the customer noIcons to eliminate the advantage experienced by those who live in the DA practicing ACM that dominates in the LWMA. So the only response perceived by you, unless I want to insult my own intelligence is personal by my analyzing your sales pitch for what it is.
None of you are selling this concept other than from your personal feelings. So far you only offer the imagery that it effectively castrates the existing food chain as it stands in the LWMA and will magically make anyone agreeing with you superior to a muppet by that virtue if only Mr. HiTech will give you what you want. You are selling customers their own class envy of the LWMA's top of the food chain as the reason they should support your wish and vote for your dream. In the end you can deliver nothing to them other than conning them with their emotions. Eventualy the top of the food chain in the current Icon dominated LWMA if they chose to stay in the game would be the top of the food chain in your utopian arena.
I will bet the CM group for the AvA will work with you to present a once a week No Icons LWMA night to help test your as of yet unproven crowd appeal to No Icons as the next defacto standard in Aces High's evolution. Otherwise you don't have any collateral in hand to induce HiTech to change the Icon standard for all of his paying customers. Just your feelings.
First, I'm not convinced I'm correct about Icons. Second, My skill set is pretty solid. I kill boat loads of folks in LWMA. :D I'm not selling gimmicks to improve my survival or kill ratio. It's not productive claim facts not in evidence visa vi, motives of why someone thinks no icon is better. Then use those non-facts as resons to not have the discussion.
I was merely stating that I loved the AVA format, and why I liked it. I was then offering my theory of how it might impact the LWMA based on what I learned in AVA, and simultaniously questioning pre-concieved notions that proport to know the outcome of such an experiment before it's tried. I think the AVA is a successfull experiment, because most folks that tried it, liked it. They don't stay in the AVA for the same reason I don't. Plane set is limited and LWMA has the critical mass, so LWMA type action I.E. base taking, GV fights, etc..doesn't develop in AVA.
Putting Hydrogen and helium in a jar doesn't make them the Sun, it takes a lot of them to make it work. so be carefull about drawing conclusions about what folks like based on Arena attendance.
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A faith based argument. Show me the data.
Please do not edit my Post by adding information I never typed and make it look like I typed something I did not. Thank you.
Secondly, it's not a faith based argument. I presented data, which was my experience in the AVA. It seems nearly all first hand accounts of dog fights and from real pilots who have commented here say Planes are very hard to see.
There is a difference between the above and the many others who keep repeating an anacdotal story of human eye versus screen resolution that they have no actual knowlege of. As if they are saying "the science has been settled" without ever having seen the proof. Reminds me of the global warming debacle. :salute
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Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.
Pand,
I fly SAR seeking aircraft on the ground, personell on the ground, and other aircraft in my area. Yes, I know how "difficult" it can be (usually the difficulty in spotting them is an obstruction on the aircraft, ie my strut's in the way), but at D4k, I can identify the type and color of the aircraft. All that was needed to identify FoF in here. Should we turn off icons, we wouldn't be able to ID a plane's paint scheme until my G1000 would be screaming "TRAFFIC" into my headset (and no... those aren't pleasant times). We have the same limitations of physical barriers blocking our view of other aircraft. That's why if I'm looking for something in game, I'm flying banked using rudder to keep alt. and looking over the nose.
It's quite spectacular to see how far you can see (http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm). If at 15k I can see for over 150 miles, I have a hunch I can ID something only about 2% of my maximum sight distance away.
Long story short:
In game, something that shows up as a single black pixle, IRL, I'd be able to ID as a C182 in our standard red white and blue scheme working the pattern with me.
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Pand,
I fly SAR seeking aircraft on the ground, personell on the ground, and other aircraft in my area. Yes, I know how "difficult" it can be (usually the difficulty in spotting them is an obstruction on the aircraft, ie my strut's in the way), but at D4k, I can identify the type and color of the aircraft. All that was needed to identify FoF in here. Should we turn off icons, we wouldn't be able to ID a plane's paint scheme until my G1000 would be screaming "TRAFFIC" into my headset (and no... those aren't pleasant times). We have the same limitations of physical barriers blocking our view of other aircraft. That's why if I'm looking for something in game, I'm flying banked using rudder to keep alt. and looking over the nose.
It's quite spectacular to see how far you can see (http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm). If at 15k I can see for over 150 miles, I have a hunch I can ID something only about 2% of my maximum sight distance away.
Long story short:
In game, something that shows up as a single black pixle, IRL, I'd be able to ID as a C182 in our standard red white and blue scheme working the pattern with me.
yes but you don't need to id the Paint schene at 4k in AH. If is doesn't have an icon, it's an enemy. All you have to do is have about the same statistical probabliity of seeing an object and knowing's there as in real life. The question is whether the statistics are closer with the icons for enemy on vs. Off?
I think the answer is 95% probablity at 6K with Icons on. What is it in real life at 6K for a plane somewhere in the complete sphere arround your plane?
With Icons off I'd say it's closer to...
10% at 6K
25% at 4K
50% 3K
75% 2K
100% 1K or less
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yes but you don't need to id the Paint schene at 4k in AH. If is doesn't have an icon, it's an enemy. All you have to do is have about the same statistical probabliity of seeing an object and knowing's there as in real life. The question is whether the statistics are closer with the icons for enemy on vs. Off?
I think the answer is 95% probablity at 6K with Icons on. What is it in real life at 6K for a plane somewhere in the complete sphere arround your plane?
With Icons off I'd say it's closer to...
10% at 6K
25% at 4K
50% 3K
75% 2K
100% 1K or less
6k (unless I'm totally misunderstanding the distance mechanism, this is 6000 yards)... 18,000 feet.
Most runways that I fly out of are about 5000 feet.
So, by this, I'd be unable to ID an aircraft type that was on a straight-in final if I was doing my runup at the opposite end of the runway? 3 General Aviation runway lengths isn't too far to get all the data that icons give that a single black pixle won't.
Example:
D4.5k (13,500 ft, ~2.5 runway lengths)
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq73/TheKinSlayer_1993/ahss12_zpsb451c117.png) (http://s435.photobucket.com/user/TheKinSlayer_1993/media/ahss12_zpsb451c117.png.html)
If not for icons. I'd see a black dot. IRL, I'd be able to start prepping for the fight by knowing aircraft type and rough distance/close rate (speed, e, smack, whatever you want to call it).
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Please do not edit my Post by adding information I never typed and make it look like I typed something I did not. Thank you.
Secondly, it's not a faith based argument. I presented data, which was my experience in the AVA. It seems nearly all first hand accounts of dog fights and from real pilots who have commented here say Planes are very hard to see.
When someone puts brackets in another's quote it is not making it 'look like (you) typed something (you) did not.' What I was doing was clarifying what the actual situation was versus your misperception.
You stated: "I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula."
The 'LWMA' hasn't 'found the ultimate settings formula.' Dale and HTC is in charge of that based upon their experience and player feedback.
Again, your 'belief' does not a known factual statement make, since you are demanding scientific proof of others.
Your experience in AvA is not a large enough sampling. A sampling of one may support an opinion but can not speak for the minority, much less the majority and certainly cannot offer a sound basis for a presentation of 'proof' (as you apparently demand of others). Just sayin'. Not saying others don't share your opinion based on their own individual experience. I share the opinion of many here, myself. You're not in a real cockpit experiencing a true 3D environment. :D
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When someone puts brackets in another's quote it is not making it 'look like (you) typed something (you) did not.' What I was doing was clarifying what the actual situation was versus your misperception.
You stated: "I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula."
The 'LWMA' hasn't 'found the ultimate settings formula.' Dale and HTC is in charge of that based upon their experience and player feedback.
Again, your 'belief' does not a known factual statement make, since you are demanding scientific proof of others.
Your experience in AvA is not a large enough sampling. A sampling of one may support an opinion but can not speak for the minority, much less the majority and certainly cannot offer a sound basis for a presentation of 'proof' (as you apparently demand of others). Just sayin'. Not saying others don't share your opinion based on their own individual experience. I share the opinion of many here, myself. You're not in a real cockpit experiencing a true 3D environment. :D
I don't want to argue with you. You have chosen to ref the discussion instead of add something to the discussion. The Post above from Trigger is an example od good addition to the discussion. :salute
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I don't want to argue with you. You have chosen to ref the discussion instead of add something to the discussion. The Post above from Trigger is an example od good addition to the discussion. :salute
And you're adding, via this post?
Here, let's play 'addition' (here's a counter opinion to your opinion) versus 'analysis' (aka: an opinion regarding a potential flaw in your argument).
First, for clarification (not necessarily required for all) - we're not talking about flying without icons from a player's own viewpoint but eliminating the icon option for all players in the area. Now the obvious eliminates the 'just turn off icons' ... um .... argument.
This is not an unknown setting in AvA.
Why should this be a setting in the MA and how will this:
1) Benefit HTC?
2) Make the game more fun overall for the entire player base?
3) (And for shots and giggles) Benefit the AvA subset of the community?
At this point it may behoove us to examine why AvA and MA are different.
Why was the AvA arena created? Quite simply, it was created to offer an historical, 2 sided environment with a 24/7 availability. Additional realism settings were an afterthought. Not necessarily a bad one .... for the dedicated AvA crowd .... but not a player magnet when it comes to attracting dedicated MA folk.
So why impose this setting on the MA crowd? Is this an attempt to force their skill set to match what may be required in AvA? Why? To replace the AvA?
Why is the MA set up the way it is (the 'ultimate' settings formula)? Well, first off, it's not just settings. It's design. Dale's design, btw. It's a three-sided map that has nothing to do with history. Players can fly any plane from any of the countries represented in the planeset against that same model being flown by a player representing a different ... chess piece. So far it doesn't sound like a design devoted to mimicking our grandfather's experiences. It's set up as a game as much as a sim. But the MA is not designed to simulate an historical setting nor is it designed with an idea that 'less is more' (disabling features and settings making the game experience 'more fun'). It's actually more of a 'what else can we ADD to the game' type of enviroment. Some of these additions may well benefit events, even ... from a technical standpoint.
Aces High has different arenas to cater to different likes. There really is a reason for that. Most of the players like the MA and it's not uncommon for an MA player to try the AvA and not fall in love with it ... due to the settings or even the limited plane set. MA players are, by and large, not really into artificial restrictions on the game/their version of fun in AHII.
Does this mean I don't like the AvA arena? Anyone who really knows me and my history in the game would know better. ;)
Ok, so .... I would love to see a valid argument as to why forcing AvA settings onto the MA arena would benefit the game, overall, or even the AvA arena and dedicated community ... but I'm not seeing one yet. Whoops .... guess I just stopped 'adding' to the conversation again. :D
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And you're adding, via this post?
Here, let's play 'addition' (here's a counter opinion to your opinion) versus 'analysis' (aka: an opinion regarding a potential flaw in your argument).
First, for clarification (not necessarily required for all) - we're not talking about flying without icons from a player's own viewpoint but eliminating the icon option for all players in the area. Now the obvious eliminates the 'just turn off icons' ... um .... argument.
This is not an unknown setting in AvA.
Why should this be a setting in the MA and how will this:
1) Benefit HTC?
2) Make the game more fun overall for the entire player base?
3) (And for shots and giggles) Benefit the AvA subset of the community?
At this point it may behoove us to examine why AvA and MA are different.
Why was the AvA arena created? Quite simply, it was created to offer an historical, 2 sided environment with a 24/7 availability. Additional realism settings were an afterthought. Not necessarily a bad one .... for the dedicated AvA crowd .... but not a player magnet when it comes to attracting dedicated MA folk.
So why impose this setting on the MA crowd? Is this an attempt to force their skill set to match what may be required in AvA? Why? To replace the AvA?
Why is the MA set up the way it is (the 'ultimate' settings formula)? Well, first off, it's not just settings. It's design. Dale's design, btw. It's a three-sided map that has nothing to do with history. Players can fly any plane from any of the countries represented in the planeset against that same model being flown by a player representing a different ... chess piece. So far it doesn't sound like a design devoted to mimicking our grandfather's experiences. It's set up as a game as much as a sim. But the MA is not designed to simulate an historical setting nor is it designed with an idea that 'less is more' (disabling features and settings making the game experience 'more fun'). It's actually more of a 'what else can we ADD to the game' type of enviroment. Some of these additions may well benefit events, even ... from a technical standpoint.
Aces High has different arenas to cater to different likes. There really is a reason for that. Most of the players like the MA and it's not uncommon for an MA player to try the AvA and not fall in love with it ... due to the settings or even the limited plane set. MA players are, by and large, not really into artificial restrictions on the game/their version of fun in AHII.
Does this mean I don't like the AvA arena? Anyone who really knows me and my history in the game would know better. ;)
Ok, so .... I would love to see a valid argument as to why forcing AvA settings onto the MA arena would benefit the game, overall, or even the AvA arena and dedicated community ... but I'm not seeing one yet. Whoops .... guess I just stopped 'adding' to the conversation again. :D
EW, MW, LW are all the same arena settings except for plane set. AVA is a different plane set too. So what we conclude is the LW plane set is the dominant factor in arena choice. That means icon ON/OFF does not effect arena choice. So having icons turned off in AVA proves nothing about LWMA acceptance of "No Enemy Icons"
I'll adress the "simulation" argument. there is a trade off between Real and FUN. When you find things that add realism AND add fun, it's an easy choice. So th ediscussion on no ENEMY ICON for LWMA is whether it's more or less realism...and whether it's more or less fun.
I have been attempting to get to the bottom of whether it is more or less real.
Whether it's more fun, depends. I think if limited to one night a week it would be more fun just for that night as a change of pace. If it was a new rule that stayed that way all the time, people would get used to it and relative "fun" factor would decrease. to the point of plenty of Wish lists" asking for Enemy icons because blah blah blah.. And those reasons would be valid.
I never said No-icons shoudl be the law of the land in LWMA. I said it would be fun to do it one night a week, like we used to do Titanic Tuesdays.
back on topic...
So is it More real?
And is it more fun?
back on topic...
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EW, MW, LW are all the same arena settings except for plane set. AVA is a different plane set too. So what we conclude is the LW plane set is the dominant factor in arena choice. That means icon ON/OFF does not effect arena choice. So having icons turned off in AVA proves nothing about LWMA acceptance of "No Enemy Icons"
Not what 'we' conclude, what you conclude. I've seen players come into the AvA either by invite or curiousity and not complain about the plane set but complain about the settings. I've seen the plane set be complained about, as well. One does not preclude the other in apparent preference.
I'll adress the "simulation" argument. there is a trade off between Real and FUN. When you find things that add realism AND add fun, it's an easy choice. So the discussion on no ENEMY ICON for LWMA is whether it's more or less realism...and whether it's more or less fun.
Actually, the heart of the argument appears to be about more realism. Added to that is a premise that the general population of players would eventually find it more fun. Regrettably, such a premise runs contrary to both experience and common business sense of both the HTC main arena design and business plan.
I have been attempting to get to the bottom of whether it is more or less real.
Whether it's more fun, depends. I think if limited to one night a week it would be more fun just for that night as a change of pace. If it was a new rule that stayed that way all the time, people would get used to it and relative "fun" factor would decrease. to the point of plenty of Wish lists" asking for Enemy icons because blah blah blah.. And those reasons would be valid.
Making this wish a long term usless exercise?
I never said No-icons shoudl be the law of the land in LWMA. I said it would be fun to do it one night a week, like we used to do Titanic Tuesdays.
back on topic...
So is it More real?
And is it more fun?
back on topic...
Back on topic? :lol
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they could call it a test arena, so as not to scare anyone.
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they could call it a test arena, so as not to scare anyone.
The could call it SEA I or SEA II, as well. Arena message: "Between events, feel free to come see what the pizza map feels like with no icons. We'll be doing a head-count to test popularity." ;)
But then, HT has weighed in on this thread and the argument persists. :)
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Not what 'we' conclude, what you conclude. I've seen players come into the AvA either by invite or curiousity and not complain about the plane set but complain about the settings. I've seen the plane set be complained about, as well. One does not preclude the other in apparent preference.
Circular.
Actually, the heart of the argument appears to be about more realism.
Well yes, but by realism I mean how it affects combat scenarios and tactics. Not realism for realism's sake...
Added to that is a premise that the general population of players would eventually find it more fun. Regrettably, such a premise runs contrary to both experience and common business sense of both the HTC main arena design and business plan.
Then the question is would the change in tactacs be more fun or less fun.
[Edited].
Making this wish a long term usless exercise?
I'm saying a little variety keeps thing intersting. This comunity craves change and evolution of the game. That's what 95% of the posts are about and 95% of the work that HTC does is about. Every change doesn;t have to be permanent. Examples of wishes that were entertained on limited basis....
Shooting the great pumpkin
The great alien Claw inviasion.
Wind
Titanic Tuesdays.
So doesn't than mean others are possible to try out also? like these...
Some night time hours in the MA
No enemy Icon night
The wish list is full of fun ideas that might be tried or experimented with in the LWMA. Which is the only arena valid experiments can be conducted in. :salute
[/quote]
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Circular.
Not on my part, I assure you. :)
Well yes, but by realism I mean how it affects combat scenarios and tactics. Not realism for realism's sake...
Then the question is would the change in tactacs be more fun or less fun.
BTW, Do you have an insite to how Icons affect the HTC main arena design and business plan? Can share with the rest of us? I had no idea you were privey to HTC's inner think tank.
Are you thinking this is a new discussion or that HT has never weighed in on this before?
I'm saying a little variety keeps thing intersting. This comunity craves change and evolution of the game. That's what 95% of the posts are about and 95% of the work that HTC does is about. Every change doesn;t have to be permanent. Examples of wishes that were entertained on limited basis....
HT has catered to variety. It's called hosting multiple arenas in spite of popularity or use. HT has even made adjustments in the MA. But not in a hasty or hectic manner. This is more than a hobby to him.
Shooting the great pumpkin
The great alien Claw inviasion.
Wind
Titanic Tuesdays.
so doesn't than mean others are possible to try out also? like these...
Some night time hours in the MA
No enemy Icon night
The wish list is full of fun ideas that might be tried or experimented with in the LWMA. Which is the only arena valid experiments can be conducted in. :salute
The wish list is full of ideas of all kinds and 'fun' is subjective. Practicality, however, seldom is.
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i just wish he'd try it out sometime, thats all i "wish".
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i just wish he'd try it out sometime, thats all i "wish".
If he does (let's say for 30 minutes during prime-time in the LWMA tonight) I'd be willing to wager real money that it would be a fail. Here's an important factor to realize - HT really would be wagering real money, if he did.
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Not on my part, I assure you. :)
Are you thinking this is a new discussion or that HT has never weighed in on this before?
HT has catered to variety. It's called hosting multiple arenas in spite of popularity or use. HT has even made adjustments in the MA. But not in a hasty or hectic manner. This is more than a hobby to him.
The wish list is full of ideas of all kinds and 'fun' is subjective. Practicality, however, seldom is.
Why you keep invoking HTC as though you represent them. Please stop that.
No one in this discussion is questioning the game developers decisions. Stop pretending way are.
Your pn the wish list board....get it? Dicuss the wish please.
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Why you keep invoking HTC as though you represent them. Please stop that.
No one in this discussion is questioning the game developers decisions. Stop pretending way are.
Your pn the wish list board....get it? Dicuss the wish please.
Why? HT is aware of the thread. IF I get it wrong, I bet he can set things straight. What part of discussing potential impracticality is not part of such a discussion? HT has decided to not turn off enemy icons in the LWMA. He's participated in this thread and didn't seem excited about this suggestion. Your going off about how little this applies to the discussion comes off as an unwillingness to concede that this idea may not be as great as you want it to be ... but it is still part of the discussion. :aok
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Hands off icons on MA! :D
I, personally, have to do enough pixel hunting with current arena's settings, thank you very much.
PS. Whoever wants no icons is free to press Alt-I couple of times whenever they want to.
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Why? HT is aware of the thread. IF I get it wrong, I bet he can set things straight. What part of discussing potential impracticality is not part of such a discussion? HT has decided to not turn off enemy icons in the LWMA. He's participated in this thread and didn't seem excited about this suggestion. Your going off about how little this applies to the discussion comes off as an unwillingness to concede that this idea may not be as great as you want it to be ... but it is still part of the discussion. :aok
more non-value input.
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more non-value input.
Don't resort to irony as your own 'value' input. If you don't know how to respond, perhaps you shouldn't. :D
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Don't resort to irony as your own 'value' input. If you don't know how to respond, perhaps you shouldn't. :D
I keep trying to get your opinion on how no-icon would affect game play. So far all your responses have been...
1) you just want changes because you stink and think this will help
2) HTC already knows everything so discussing anything is stupid.
3) This idea can't be a good one, because it's not already in the game.
4) I know you are but what am I?
5) I know you are but what am I?
All of your comments were designed to shut down the discussion , and make it pointless with contrarianism. It's a discussion board. The purpose is to discuss an idea, not to discuss whether the idea should be discussed. Please stop playing BBS Referee. It's not your job.
thanks, :salute
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I keep trying to get your opinion on how no-icon would affect game play. So far all your responses have been...
1) you just want changes because you stink and think this will help
2) HTC already knows everything so discussing anything is stupid.
3) This idea can't be a good one, because it's not already in the game.
4) I know you are but what am I?
5) I know you are but what am I?
All of your comments were designed to shut down the discussion , and make it pointless with contrarianism. It's a discussion board. The purpose is to discuss an idea, not to discuss whether the idea should be discussed. Please stop playing BBS Referee. It's not your job.
thanks, :salute
Who's attempting to play 'BBS ref?'
Noooo, Vink. Besides, what happened to the Vink that was somewhat irate over having his quote edited with a bracket, therefore being misrepresented? :lol
If you don't like the response I've given to your suggestion, that's fine. If you feel the necessity to whine that my response is non-productive (along with other topic participants, apparently - AvA no icon fans and the actual designer of the game included) ... I hate to tell you but it's not me trying to be a topic nazi.
Crusade on, brother. ;)
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Who's attempting to play 'BBS ref?'
Noooo, Vink. Besides, what happened to the Vink that was somewhat irate over having his quote edited with a bracket, therefore being misrepresented? :lol
If you don't like the response I've given to your suggestion, that's fine. If you feel the necessity to whine that my response is non-productive (along with other topic participants, apparently - AvA no icon fans and the actual designer of the game included) ... I hate to tell you but it's not me trying to be a topic nazi.
Crusade on, brother. ;)
fail
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fail
Ok, if you have a problem with me, personal or otherwise ... or if you have a problem with how I choose to discuss the topic - take it up with Skuzzy. I trust his judgement wholeheartedly. I'm as familiar with his rules for topic discussion as anyone on the forum. When and if you decide to discuss the topic again, maybe adding something new, I may well have an opinion to add to that, as well. :)
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One thing I will definitely agree with Vinkman on, is that adding it as another arena would not give it a fair chance. It would merely be another place to milkrun. It would actually likely be THE place to milkrun, if it had late war planes and it was harder to find people.
It's a catch-22. The only way to really test it is to throw it in the Main, and that would mightily tick people off.
Wiley.
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The only way to really test it is to throw it in the Main, and that would mightily tick people off.
The heart and soul of my viewpoint. :aok
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One thing I will definitely agree with Vinkman on, is that adding it as another arena would not give it a fair chance. It would merely be another place to milkrun. It would actually likely be THE place to milkrun, if it had late war planes and it was harder to find people.
It's a catch-22. The only way to really test it is to throw it in the Main, and that would mightily tick people off.
Wiley.
Thanks Wiley <S>
Again, I'm not convinced that it would improve the LWMA. I see benefits and draw backs. I'm for trying it to find out. That's all. I think if it was tried on beta one night experiment basis and that was explained in an arena message, folks could deal with it just fine. I have a lot of faith in the community. :salute
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Ok, if you have a problem with me, personal or otherwise ... or if you have a problem with how I choose to discuss the topic - take it up with Skuzzy. I trust his judgement wholeheartedly. I'm as familiar with his rules for topic discussion as anyone on the forum. When and if you decide to discuss the topic again, maybe adding something new, I may well have an opinion to add to that, as well. :)
Arlo, I don't have a problem with you at all. It's strange because in another thread about airspeed you posted the perfect answer...you went up in your F4U, took a screen shot of the Air Speed indicator and answered the question clear and decisively. You didn't mock the OP's reasons for claiming planes don't fly as fast as they're supposed to. I just wanted to try to direct you to the same courtesy in this thread you showed in the other one. That's all. :salute
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Arlo, I don't have a problem with you at all. It's strange because in another thread about airspeed you posted the perfect answer...you went up in your F4U, took a screen shot of the Air Speed indicator and answered the question clear and decisively. You didn't mock the OP's reasons for claiming planes don't fly as fast as they're supposed to. I just wanted to try to direct you to the same courtesy in this thread you showed in the other one. That's all. :salute
You having a problem with my opinion as to why no icons is a bad idea in the MA not involving a screenshot has nothing to do with my being discourteous. But ... what you're doing, presently, is an example of not productively discussing the topic. If you feel mocked by me, specifically, I assure you that it's a perception problem .. and not mine. :D
You're welcome. :salute
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You having a problem with my opinion as to why no icons is a bad idea in the MA not involving a screenshot has nothing to do with my being discourteous. But ... what you're doing, presently, is an example of not productively discussing the topic. If you feel mocked by me, specifically, I assure you that it's a perception problem .. and not mine. :D
You're welcome. :salute
Last one. In my head I attributed Bustr's first two posts to you, which was in error. In reviewing the thread, you didn't mock anyone. My appologies for implying that.
I'll leave it there. :salute
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Last one. In my head I attributed Bustr's first two posts to you, which was in error. In reviewing the thread, you didn't mock anyone. My appologies for implying that.
I'll leave it there. :salute
Thank you. Agreed. Pax. Concentrating on the subject at hand. :salute
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I think if it was tried on beta one night experiment basis and that was explained in an arena message, folks could deal with it just fine. I have a lot of faith in the community. :salute
...And that's where we differ wildly. ;) I think people would log out in droves after about their first 3 or 4 invisible plane deaths, and carry that over to a grudge with the 'direction the game is taking'. The community are a finicky lot. If people are forced into unfamiliar gameplay with limited playtime, they get cranky.
Ugh... Just had a thought. Imagine what one of the more competent 262 guys could do in a no icon environment...
Learning to function in a no icon environment just takes far too long to do as a short term test. In the other sim, on the sunday night no icon events (similar to FSO) I spent the first 3 months squinting at my screen looking for dots. It took me 5 months to get a kill in that environment. Granted, I was a complete flight sim newb when I began so couldn't keep up with my squad to save my life which didn't help any.
My point is, it's a change that takes dedication and desire to adjust to, not something to be tried for 6 hours. All 90% of people would get out of that is frustration and the feeling that their entertainment time was wasted.
Wiley.
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...And that's where we differ wildly. ;) I think people would log out in droves after about their first 3 or 4 invisible plane deaths, and carry that over to a grudge with the 'direction the game is taking'. The community are a finicky lot. If people are forced into unfamiliar gameplay with limited playtime, they get cranky.
Ugh... Just had a thought. Imagine what one of the more competent 262 guys could do in a no icon environment...
Learning to function in a no icon environment just takes far too long to do as a short term test. In the other sim, on the sunday night no icon events (similar to FSO) I spent the first 3 months squinting at my screen looking for dots. It took me 5 months to get a kill in that environment. Granted, I was a complete flight sim newb when I began so couldn't keep up with my squad to save my life which didn't help any.
My point is, it's a change that takes dedication and desire to adjust to, not something to be tried for 6 hours. All 90% of people would get out of that is frustration and the feeling that their entertainment time was wasted.
Wiley.
All good points.
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Last one. In my head I attributed Bustr's first two posts to you, which was in error. In reviewing the thread, you didn't mock anyone. My appologies for implying that.
I'll leave it there. :salute
:salute
good man.
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...And that's where we differ wildly. ;) I think people would log out in droves after about their first 3 or 4 invisible plane deaths, and carry that over to a grudge with the 'direction the game is taking'. The community are a finicky lot. If people are forced into unfamiliar gameplay with limited playtime, they get cranky.
Ugh... Just had a thought. Imagine what one of the more competent 262 guys could do in a no icon environment...
Learning to function in a no icon environment just takes far too long to do as a short term test. In the other sim, on the sunday night no icon events (similar to FSO) I spent the first 3 months squinting at my screen looking for dots. It took me 5 months to get a kill in that environment. Granted, I was a complete flight sim newb when I began so couldn't keep up with my squad to save my life which didn't help any.
My point is, it's a change that takes dedication and desire to adjust to, not something to be tried for 6 hours. All 90% of people would get out of that is frustration and the feeling that their entertainment time was wasted.
Wiley.
I agree, they would log in droves, and those with BBS accounts would post highly flammable texts until Skuzzy came in and liberally swung the bane hammer until his fingers bleed.
I remember the night the 163 first appeared in the MA. It was a Saturday night ( it was squad night) and we were on the AKdesert map. Mugz had the Mafia rolling with a bunch of others joining in on the fun. It was also the weekend of the CON, and guess what the "Evil CON mission" was that year? Yup 163's. They were every where. I think 3/4 of the squad logged in disgust with a crap load of Bish as well.
I'm sure the same would happen if you took away ICONs from players. I also believe that those that "like" this wish will never believe that it won't work unless they see it for themselves.... which I don't think they will ever see. I liken it to the AvA crowd. They swear up and down that 2 sides axis vs allies is the ONLY way to play, but then have trouble getting any one in there. Even when the LW arena crashes more people go to the MW than AvA, but most just log.
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INK,
1. - HiTech gave his business reason for No Icon in a polite rational manner.
2. - Vinkman and Co. rejected the owner of the game's reasons. Some might construe insulted him by thumbing their noses at his reasons, and continued to beat the horse. Even with the tools available to simply present their own arena to the community to help test their hypothesis. Instead they argued for HiTech to force the community to live with their untested wants against meeting the pay role.
3. - I deconstructed the motives which resulted in Vinkman declaring himself a victim of abuse. Poor Vinkman he has been so victimized and abused in a kiddy cartoon game. There is such evil resident in this forum.
4. - This caused the usual circling of the wagons by the resident forum pity committee mollifying Vinkman with a show of manly solidarity focusing on the "Evil bustr". One thing this forum is addicted to is a mob and someone to hang. Works every time like blood to piranha. Half the time you guys do it out of boredom to each other.
5. - Vinkman begins loosing steam on No Icons because now he has the pity committee to fill his void. He begins to listen to them because they are on his side against the "Evil bustr".
6. - Costs me nothing to be part of this forum soap opera of pity parties and lynch mobs.
7. - All along older community members step in to present the rational side of the same reasons HiTech first gave in expanded detail.
8. - Something about rational logic and emotional reasoning gets inserted here.
So I hope you guys at least buy Vinkman dinner and flowers to go along with your manly support of his victimized virtue. I suppose HiTech is fair game at all times to emotional reasoning even if he is the ultimate moderator.
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There have been a lot of good ideas and possible solutions provided in this thread while not leaning completely one way or the other. Hopefully a good balance could be implemented that may potentially improve an already awesome game.
Onward!
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INK,
1. - HiTech gave his business reason for No Icon in a polite rational manner.
2. - Vinkman and Co. rejected the owner of the game's reasons. Some might construe insulted him by thumbing their noses at his reasons, and continued to beat the horse. Even with the tools available to simply present their own arena to the community to help test their hypothesis. Instead they argued for HiTech to force the community to live with their untested wants against meeting the pay role.
3. - I deconstructed the motives which resulted in Vinkman declaring himself a victim of abuse. Poor Vinkman he has been so victimized and abused in a kiddy cartoon game. There is such evil resident in this forum.
4. - This caused the usual circling of the wagons by the resident forum pity committee mollifying Vinkman with a show of manly solidarity focusing on the "Evil bustr". One thing this forum is addicted to is a mob and someone to hang. Works every time like blood to piranha. Half the time you guys do it out of boredom to each other.
5. - Vinkman begins loosing steam on No Icons because now he has the pity committee to fill his void. He begins to listen to them because they are on his side against the "Evil bustr".
6. - Costs me nothing to be part of this forum soap opera of pity parties and lynch mobs.
7. - All along older community members step in to present the rational side of the same reasons HiTech first gave in expanded detail.
8. - Something about rational logic and emotional reasoning gets inserted here.
So I hope you guys at least buy Vinkman dinner and flowers to go along with your manly support of his victimized virtue. I suppose HiTech is fair game at all times to emotional reasoning even if he is the ultimate moderator.
:rofl
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hey idiots, yes you guys. i see the problem with totally just killing enemy icons in the late arena. but if we could just try out an alter arena where perk points can be made towards the late war, we would be making progress. i am unsure why hitech wouldnt even consider this idea. but i bet we could get maybe 100 guys in there to try it out. yes it may be confusing at first, but i still think its worth a try.
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hey idiots, yes you guys. i see the problem with totally just killing enemy icons in the late arena. but if we could just try out an alter arena where perk points can be made towards the late war, we would be making progress. i am unsure why hitech wouldnt even consider this idea. but i bet we could get maybe 100 guys in there to try it out. yes it may be confusing at first, but i still think its worth a try.
Why do you need a no icon arena to earn perk points towards the LWA that has icons? Not everybody flys to earn perk points. You'd be surprised how many people rarely or never fly perk planes.
Hitech gave you his reasons for the icon system. After reading his reply you're still unsure, yet you call others idiots. :lol
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I liken it to the AvA crowd. They swear up and down that 2 sides axis vs allies is the ONLY way to play, but then have trouble getting any one in there. Even when the LW arena crashes more people go to the MW than AvA, but most just log.
You think the better approach for us would be to say "Come play AvA, our 2 sided setup sucks"?
We have been doing this long enough to know that most people prefer the any plane at any time for any country arena, but we still think it's worth running because we often get enough people to make it fun as hell.
I'm kind of done arguing with people who refuse to recognize that at least since I've been involved, around the the fall of 2009 before anyone considered turning enemy icons off, the arena has always had trouble getting anyone in there and it was never any better when the enemy icons were turned on.
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Back when it was called the Combat Theatre there was qite a large following that would sometimes reach into the 20s, then it died out severely. Then when the icon changes and realism settings got tweaked by the current AvA staff the numbers really picked up again.
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hey idiots, yes you guys. i see the problem with totally just killing enemy icons in the late arena. but if we could just try out an alter arena where perk points can be made towards the late war, we would be making progress. i am unsure why hitech wouldnt even consider this idea. but i bet we could get maybe 100 guys in there to try it out. yes it may be confusing at first, but i still think its worth a try.
hey idiot! ya you seano! We understand that YOU understand that doing this in the Main arena would be bad. What YOU don't seem to understand is that even if HTC went through the trouble of setting up the arena you "wish" for you wouldn't get 100 players at a time in there. You would get the 10-20 guys who think no enemy icons are cool and even then most of those would leave as the numbers would be so low that targets would be hard to find. Even guys who who like the idea of no enemy icons would rather fly in a target rich arena with icons on over that. I'd bet you couldn't fill a custom arena if you set one up.
You think the better approach for us would be to say "Come play AvA, our 2 sided setup sucks"?
We have been doing this long enough to know that most people prefer the any plane at any time for any country arena, but we still think it's worth running because we often get enough people to make it fun as hell.
I'm kind of done arguing with people who refuse to recognize that at least since I've been involved, around the the fall of 2009 before anyone considered turning enemy icons off, the arena has always had trouble getting anyone in there and it was never any better when the enemy icons were turned on.
I wasn't trying to bad mouth the AvA arena. You guys work hard to pull people in. The only think that keeps me out is the low numbers. All I was trying to say was that there are some players who fly the AvA arena because they think that is the way a WWII arena should be set up. mustangs dont fight mustangs! They believe it soooo strongly that they don't/can't see that others want to play the game just to have the chance to shoot a bunch of people down. The same can be said about some in the main arenas as well, some believe that it is a waste of time and energy to drop bombs on buildings and guns and take base. They believe it soooo strongly that they don't/can't see that others want to play the game to win the war.
seano is determined he is right and this new arena will take off, even after Hitech posted that it would hurt to try it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,347248.msg4588250.html#msg4588250). Most of the post in here point out why it won't work yet blindly he continues on.
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INK,
1. - HiTech gave his business reason for No Icon in a polite rational manner.
2. - Vinkman and Co. rejected the owner of the game's reasons. Some might construe insulted him by thumbing their noses at his reasons, and continued to beat the horse. Even with the tools available to simply present their own arena to the community to help test their hypothesis. Instead they argued for HiTech to force the community to live with their untested wants against meeting the pay role.
3. - I deconstructed the motives which resulted in Vinkman declaring himself a victim of abuse. Poor Vinkman he has been so victimized and abused in a kiddy cartoon game. There is such evil resident in this forum.
4. - This caused the usual circling of the wagons by the resident forum pity committee mollifying Vinkman with a show of manly solidarity focusing on the "Evil bustr". One thing this forum is addicted to is a mob and someone to hang. Works every time like blood to piranha. Half the time you guys do it out of boredom to each other.
5. - Vinkman begins loosing steam on No Icons because now he has the pity committee to fill his void. He begins to listen to them because they are on his side against the "Evil bustr".
6. - Costs me nothing to be part of this forum soap opera of pity parties and lynch mobs.
7. - All along older community members step in to present the rational side of the same reasons HiTech first gave in expanded detail.
8. - Something about rational logic and emotional reasoning gets inserted here.
So I hope you guys at least buy Vinkman dinner and flowers to go along with your manly support of his victimized virtue. I suppose HiTech is fair game at all times to emotional reasoning even if he is the ultimate moderator.
I just realized that you're a tool. Good to know. :salute
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I wasn't trying to bad mouth the AvA arena. You guys work hard to pull people in. The only think that keeps me out is the low numbers. All I was trying to say was that there are some players who fly the AvA arena because they think that is the way a WWII arena should be set up. mustangs dont fight mustangs! They believe it soooo strongly that they don't/can't see that others want to play the game just to have the chance to shoot a bunch of people down.
That's true. I did find it puzzling myself. No one decides to check this game out after reading or watching a documentary about the great Corsair vs Mustang battles of WWII. You would think the AvA would have a built in advantage, but now I know that most folks don't care a lot about that.
While numbers do draw numbers, that preference has to be there from the start or the AvA would be considered the main arena.
I think some of the more controversial posts by AvA folks are sort of a misguided attempt to appeal to players with a challenge, rather than true elitism.
I have toyed with the idea of making a severely bastardized huge map representing all the main theaters of war at once and enable all the planes in the more or less correct areas, so that one could always find his favorite plane, but would still be most likely to encounter historical opponents.
I may still try that someday for the hell of it, but I don't think it would help a lot.
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hey idiot! ya you seano! We understand that YOU understand that doing this in the Main arena would be bad. What YOU don't seem to understand is that even if HTC went through the trouble of setting up the arena you "wish" for you wouldn't get 100 players at a time in there. You would get the 10-20 guys who think no enemy icons are cool and even then most of those would leave as the numbers would be so low that targets would be hard to find. Even guys who who like the idea of no enemy icons would rather fly in a target rich arena with icons on over that. I'd bet you couldn't fill a custom arena if you set one up.
I wasn't trying to bad mouth the AvA arena. You guys work hard to pull people in. The only think that keeps me out is the low numbers. All I was trying to say was that there are some players who fly the AvA arena because they think that is the way a WWII arena should be set up. mustangs dont fight mustangs! They believe it soooo strongly that they don't/can't see that others want to play the game just to have the chance to shoot a bunch of people down. The same can be said about some in the main arenas as well, some believe that it is a waste of time and energy to drop bombs on buildings and guns and take base. They believe it soooo strongly that they don't/can't see that others want to play the game to win the war.
seano is determined he is right and this new arena will take off, even after Hitech posted that it would hurt to try it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,347248.msg4588250.html#msg4588250). Most of the post in here point out why it won't work yet blindly he continues on.
what hitech posted was to change the settings in the current arena. please explain to me how having a no icon late war arena running alongside the other 4 arenas would hurt the gameplay and the check book. there really is only one way to find out. maybe it was tried 10 years ago, but i have no memory of them ever trying it.
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what hitech posted was to change the settings in the current arena. please explain to me how having a no icon late war arena running alongside the other 4 arenas would hurt the gameplay and the check book. there really is only one way to find out. maybe it was tried 10 years ago, but i have no memory of them ever trying it.
It's tried right now. It's called AvA. And the turnout for that arena is low enough to deter people... Server space costs money, that simple. Open up a new room = more server space = more money, and if AvA is any indicator, it would be a loss of money.
Explained.
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It's tried right now. It's called AvA. And the turnout for that arena is low enough to deter people... Server space costs money, that simple. Open up a new room = more server space = more money, and if AvA is any indicator, it would be a loss of money.
Explained.
using one of the arenas already in place for space would be fine. the 2 people that fly mid war or early war might cry a little. or the ww1 arena. chances are we would pull numbers and i think thats what scares the higher ups.
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chances are we would pull numbers and i think thats what scares the higher ups.
Chances are? Scares?
:huh
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chances are we would pull numbers and i think thats what scares the higher ups.
Yes... those 'higher ups' (In other words- HTC, the only people who matter as far as convincing anyone to do this) really hate making money and giving customers what they want. Scary, scary stuff!
Darn them! Darn them to heck!
This is really starting to sound more and more like a desire to have a late war milkrunning arena for even more efficient perk farming.
Wiley.
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using one of the arenas already in place for space would be fine. the 2 people that fly mid war or early war might cry a little. or the ww1 arena.
Or we might just let the "2 players" that do want a late war no icon arena "cry a little" and keep things as they are. :P
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I have toyed with the idea of making a severely bastardized huge map representing all the main theaters of war at once and enable all the planes in the more or less correct areas, so that one could always find his favorite plane, but would still be most likely to encounter historical opponents.
I may still try that someday for the hell of it, but I don't think it would help a lot.
Helluva project that would be. However, I'd suspect the C202 fans logging on with the FM2 fans (without others logging on at the same time) wouldn't have enough fuel (or time) to fight each other (which isn't really in line with the AvA design, for the most part, anyway). :)
My daydream was 'WAR' (where WWII if fought beginning to end in a rolling map set with the outcome being based on the success or failure of each map - cumulative). Even logistics could come into play. Heck, even R&D could.
I've heard a lite version of such has been tried. But this is a wholly different discussion.
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I have toyed with the idea of making a severely bastardized huge map representing all the main theaters of war at once and enable all the planes in the more or less correct areas, so that one could always find his favorite plane, but would still be most likely to encounter historical opponents.
I have thought about the same thing, the issue that stops it fairly quickly is the griefing that would happen from 1 area to the other.
HiTech
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hitech, sir, hows it going? so what do you think of trying out another main arena for a day or 2 to see how it goes?
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I have thought about the same thing, the issue that stops it fairly quickly is the griefing that would happen from 1 area to the other.
HiTech
Yep that's a tough one. About the only thing I could see to prevent it is a 30,000 foot wall separating the theaters. I've built one and tested it and a strong wind downdraft at about 28K would prevent anyone from flying Zekes into Europe.
The only problem is that it is kind of stupid LOL.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/wall2.jpg) (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/jimsom88/media/wall2.jpg.html)
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I suppose you could also 'stretch' over the water (or even over regions) when you create a map. It may make the map look a bit warped but it would achieve the same goal. You'd have to make sure there's an entire 'no fly zone' is stretched where even a B-29 couldn't make it full fuel cruise.
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Also .... if there were enough sides to assign one per country .....
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But then ... that would require a way to ally some of the countries .....
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By 'ally' ... if this was even possible to code ... there'd be fields you can land and tower at safely but could not rearm and refuel at ...
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Or ... I suppose ... code to where if you cant up a specific plane there, you cant refuel and rearm there .....
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You could build it and have at least the PTO and ETO separated, and you wouldn't need a chess piece for each country, just Allies or Axis but you would really need a 4th chess piece or people wouldn't know who on the roster is a PTO Rook or an ETO Rook.
Of course you could just look to where the dar action was.
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You could build it and have at least the PTO and ETO separated, but you wouldn't need a chess piece for each country just Allies or Axis but you would really need a 4th chess piece or people wouldn't know who on the roster is a PTO Rook or an ETO Rook.
Of course you could see where the dar action was.
PTO ..... ETO ...... Med ... Burma ..... North Africa?
I'm thinkin' the 'no refuel/rearm for aircraft or vehicles that you can't normally equip yourself with at that base' may be the most practical solution (depending on the coding difficulty). And it may have to be AvA, strictly, with a 2 sided setup.
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I played with it with the tools we have now and you could represent most but not all theaters (never really figured out where to put CBI) but couldn't really separate them all.
I came up with something like this with a wall only separating PTO out. It's all warped as you can see and more islands would be put in the pacific.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/avawrld4-1_zps4ce80d12.png) (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/jimsom88/media/avawrld4-1_zps4ce80d12.png.html)
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It would be a bit hard to avoid overlap:
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/World_map_Euro_Theater_zpsff9ceca9.png) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/arloguh03/media/World_map_Euro_Theater_zpsff9ceca9.png.html)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/World_map_Med_Theater_zps9b40a3ee.png) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/arloguh03/media/World_map_Med_Theater_zps9b40a3ee.png.html)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/World_map_N_Africa_Theater_zps43bdf681.png) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/arloguh03/media/World_map_N_Africa_Theater_zps43bdf681.png.html)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/World_map_CBI_Theater_zps6bc7e4e3.png) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/arloguh03/media/World_map_CBI_Theater_zps6bc7e4e3.png.html)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/World_map_Entire_Pac_Theater_zps860f1bad.png) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/arloguh03/media/World_map_Entire_Pac_Theater_zps860f1bad.png.html)
Having said that, I was thinking about your 'fourth side' comment and I believe this could be accomplished with three sides - western axis, allies and eastern axis.
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It would be a bit hard to avoid overlap
So Arlo, you been reading Faulkner lately...?
- oldman
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Can't say as I have. Recommendation?
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Can't say as I have. Recommendation?
"The Sound and the Fury" would be my pick for your first Faulkner.
- oldman
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What about 'The Portable Faulkner?'
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seeing the ava locked after this update gives me a little hope.
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AvA locked due to side setting. Isn't AvA already enemy icon free?
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You having a problem with my opinion as to why no icons is a bad idea in the MA not involving a screenshot has nothing to do with my being discourteous. But ... what you're doing, presently, is an example of not productively discussing the topic. If you feel mocked by me, specifically, I assure you that it's a perception problem .. and not mine. :D
You're welcome. :salute
:rofl
Ok - I just spit coffee out my nose.
As the person who introduced No ICONS by accident into Aces High through the AvA, I can say that the experience of flying without enemy icons puts your situation awareness A-Game to the test. It's easy to enage and disengage enemies if you choose to do so - and it's easy to loose an enemy if you're not following what they're doing. Trust me when I say it changes the way you play cause you fly in a busy AvA arena like a paranoid skitzo. Every possible black dot is an enemy fighter to sneak up on you - no different that fighter jocks and bombers in WWII had to deal with. They didn't get a RED or PURPLE rook/knight enemy colour with an ICON on the plane-type.
The locked-arena this week is my bad. I'm usually hanging around to make sure it's working right but life got in the way. But we are doing a new setup this week and it should be fun with a 'cough' new map....maybe.
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As the person who introduced No ICONS by accident into Aces High through the AvA, I can say that the experience of flying without enemy icons puts your situation awareness A-Game to the test. It's easy to enage and disengage enemies if you choose to do so - and it's easy to loose an enemy if you're not following what they're doing. Trust me when I say it changes the way you play cause you fly in a busy AvA arena like a paranoid skitzo. Every possible black dot is an enemy fighter to sneak up on you - no different that fighter jocks and bombers in WWII had to deal with. They didn't get a RED or PURPLE rook/knight enemy colour with an ICON on the plane-type.
The locked-arena this week is my bad. I'm usually hanging around to make sure it's working right but life got in the way. But we are doing a new setup this week and it should be fun with a 'cough' new map....maybe.
Looking forward to giving it a try. Tween family obligations and the squad having FSO obligations, it's not always doable. AvA was my home for years. Personally, no Enemy icons doesn't scare me away from there. :D
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AvA
seeing the ava locked after this update gives me a little hope.
It was locked while I loaded the new setup http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,347522.0.html
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:rofl
Ok - I just spit coffee out my nose.
As the person who introduced No ICONS by accident into Aces High through the AvA, I can say that the experience of flying without enemy icons puts your situation awareness A-Game to the test. It's easy to enage and disengage enemies if you choose to do so - and it's easy to loose an enemy if you're not following what they're doing. Trust me when I say it changes the way you play cause you fly in a busy AvA arena like a paranoid skitzo. Every possible black dot is an enemy fighter to sneak up on you - no different that fighter jocks and bombers in WWII had to deal with. They didn't get a RED or PURPLE rook/knight enemy colour with an ICON on the plane-type.
The locked-arena this week is my bad. I'm usually hanging around to make sure it's working right but life got in the way. But we are doing a new setup this week and it should be fun with a 'cough' new map....maybe.
maybe just try a new awesome map but with a full plane set so we can these ideas here a whirl. do you run no icons on friendlies too?
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No, only enemy icons are off.
Seano, we normally run specific scenarios, Battle of Britain, Midway etc.
Yes the plane set is limited but they really are a lot of fun. Come on in some time if you like
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half the fun of the main arena is shooting down the same plane you are flying. its an even match and dependant on pilot skill. we need to try this in a late war main arena setting where perk points will count. thats the only way we will get the kind of numbers we need to make it fun and resonalbe. the axis [lanes are at way too much disadvantage. a 190d9 didnt have that much less turn radius than a p51. 190 a8 for that matter.
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half the fun of the main arena is shooting down the same plane you are flying. its an even match and dependant on pilot skill. we need to try this in a late war main arena setting where perk points will count. thats the only way we will get the kind of numbers we need to make it fun and resonalbe. the axis [lanes are at way too much disadvantage. a 190d9 didnt have that much less turn radius than a p51. 190 a8 for that matter.
:huh :lol
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half the fun of the main arena is shooting down the same plane you are flying. its an even match and dependant on pilot skill. we need to try this in a late war main arena setting where perk points will count. thats the only way we will get the kind of numbers we need to make it fun and resonalbe. the axis [lanes are at way too much disadvantage. a 190d9 didnt have that much less turn radius than a p51. 190 a8 for that matter.
You may be right, but that's not the charter of the Axis vs Allies arena.
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You may be right, but that's not the charter of the Axis vs Allies arena.
no its not, but the guys who run the ava could actually try a main arena style fight without icons with the whole planeset.
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no its not, but the guys who run the ava could actually try a main arena style fight without icons with the whole planeset.
That wouldn't pass muster with HT.
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no its not, but the guys who run the ava could actually try a main arena style fight without icons with the whole planeset.
So could the FSO, or any of the SEAs. "Axis v Allied" suggests a certain inherent limitation.
- oldman
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About the only times we ever depart from the Axis vs Allies format is for the Soccer War and that was a RL battle and during jaeger's Jetweek, and even that is a loose Korean war interpretation with the ME 262 subbing for both the F-86 and the Mig-15. (two planes very similar in performance)
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Hey, here's your chance.
During the server work something happened to my terrain so the arena has rangoon loaded with a full plane set and I don't have time to fix it LOL, so until another staffer gets in to fix it, there ya go.
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full planeset with no enemy icons!!! yeehaw!!!!
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I recall an Israeli setting in the AvA as well. Israel and its neighbors use a lot of surplus WWII stuff, Bf109s, Mosquitoes, Spitfires, ect.
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I recall an Israeli setting in the AvA as well. Israel and its neighbors use a lot of surplus WWII stuff, Bf109s, Mosquitoes, Spitfires, ect.
Yup. That was back before AH2. Can't remember the player's name, he was Israeli and came up with the Israel map. Some good fights back then.
None of those AH1 maps survived the transition to AH2, though, which was one of the reasons why AH2 largely killed off the AvA's population.
- oldman
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None of those AH1 maps survived the transition to AH2, though, which was one of the reasons why AH2 largely killed off the AvA's population.
- oldman
Hey, good point. Time to learn how to make maps. :D
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Everything is fixed now.
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except in a furball you will have several airplanes both friendly and foe all around and hard to tell who's who. remember lots of us are getting up there in years and we need reading glasses to even see the big icons we have now.
semp
I like the idea, but you make a good point. The solution could be some kind of minor visual cue that lets you know who's friendly. Not a full icon, but maybe a small dot in place of the icon or a colored outline of the friendly a/c.
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I like the idea, but you make a good point. The solution could be some kind of minor visual cue that lets you know who's friendly. Not a full icon, but maybe a small dot in place of the icon or a colored outline of the friendly a/c.
hate the idea of the plane being "outlined in red" blaaaaa
A red dot would work perfect....if its real close say within 100 it disappears, that close no need for icon
although that is a lot of updating for the CPU, something like that may not be feasible
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hate the idea of the plane being "outlined in red" blaaaaa
A red dot would work perfect....if its real close say within 100 it disappears, that close no need for icon
although that is a lot of updating for the CPU, something like that may not be feasible
Yea, I don't particularly care for any kinds of markings on my screen either. I don't even like the text buffer there. Minimal is best, whatever it would be.
CPU updating, if you're talking about the icon/dot going off and on, my guess is since the screen is updated constantly anyhow, adding or removing the icon would be insignificant.
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ok, so on the current map, there is a tank town, which sucks the life out of any kind of air to air combat. how about since there are barely any airfights on a map with a tank town, just get rid of the enemy icons on these types of maps. thank you hitech sir.
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Guess I gotta give props for persistence. :lol
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An ideal place for no enemy Icon testing in a micro environment if you really need to piss players off. DA Furball Lake. At least make the enemy Icon a red dot to start with to get the regulars up to speed. Cold Turkey will probably drive them out day one. It would be the most realistic test of the LWMA with adequate numbers without offending the real LWMA players and killing subscriptions you can get.
Hitech can put in a disclaimer popup when you enter the DA.
Hello this is Hitech.
Enemy Icons Off brought to you by seano and muzik.
PM them if you are not happy with the results.
PM me to change it back before canceling your account.
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ok, so on the current map, there is a tank town, which sucks the life out of any kind of air to air combat. how about since there are barely any airfights on a map with a tank town, just get rid of the enemy icons on these types of maps. thank you hitech sir.
if i am correct the settings are for all arenas if you shut it off on one map it will effect all maps you wish would require that everytime a TT map comes up they will have to change settings so NO!
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ok, so on the current map, there is a tank town, which sucks the life out of any kind of air to air combat. how about since there are barely any airfights on a map with a tank town, just get rid of the enemy icons on these types of maps. thank you hitech sir.
Create a custom arena, turn off icons and all 5 of you that want no icons can have a place to play. Simple solution to a simple problem.
ack-ack
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if i am correct the settings are for all arenas if you shut it off on one map it will effect all maps you wish would require that everytime a TT map comes up they will have to change settings so NO!
Your wrong, its an arena setting so it can be changed in one arena..... like it was in the AvA arena
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Your wrong, its an arena setting so it can be changed in one arena..... like it was in the AvA arena
Like it is in the AvA arena! And yes, you're right, it is arena dependent.
- oldman
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Like it is in the AvA arena! And yes, you're right, it is arena dependent.
- oldman
the ava is dead because of the limited plane set. the only true way to test run this is to have a real main arena, where perk points can count and get added.
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What does perk points have to do with anything? Most people will NOT play the game with out icons. Just like MOST people will not play the game i n the dark.
Id bet you could set up a custom arena and advertise the crap out of it and you wouldn't be able to fill it. There just isn't enough people that want it to make it worth while.
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What does perk points have to do with anything? Most people will NOT play the game with out icons. Just like MOST people will not play the game i n the dark.
Id bet you could set up a custom arena and advertise the crap out of it and you wouldn't be able to fill it. There just isn't enough people that want it to make it worth while.
A night only, no icon, double perk earning arena. :D
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A lot of us cut our teeth on this game that had this kind of icon system.
(http://www.musketeers.org/wordpress/wp-content/ackmess-8x6.jpg)
ack-ack
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What does perk points have to do with anything? Most people will NOT play the game with out icons. Just like MOST people will not play the game i n the dark.
Id bet you could set up a custom arena and advertise the crap out of it and you wouldn't be able to fill it. There just isn't enough people that want it to make it worth while.
making perks count will get players in the arena. no one wants to play for nothing.
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A lot of us cut our teeth on this game that had this kind of icon system.
(http://www.musketeers.org/wordpress/wp-content/ackmess-8x6.jpg)
ack-ack
its been so long, that must be air warrior. if its an early version of aces high, someone was definitely infringing on copyrights.
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its been so long, that must be air warrior. if its an early version of aces high, someone was definitely infringing on copyrights.
That is Air Warrior.
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That is Air Warrior.
Sigh ... almost a shame to have to clarify.
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please disable all enemy icons. lets keep it real.
There were numerous spotters and related positions on both sides in addition to the remedial radar of the time. It is already accurate.
Could the spotters and dar miss a plane? Sure. Just fly under 200 if that is what you want to ensure.
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making perks count will get players in the arena. no one wants to play for nothing.
Funny, perks AND points are available in EW and MW and you don't see people in there that often. Your not going to lure people in to play "no icons" that way.
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Hello this is Hitech.
Enemy Icons Off brought to you by seano and muzik.
PM them if you are not happy with the results.
PM me to change it back before canceling your account.
:huh :lol I made one small comment after 15 long pages of comments and I get the blame for this?
I'm sensing a small personal grudge here.
The FACT is, I'm up in the air about this. I havent even read 90% of this thread. And the side I lean most to is that icons should stay how they are for one reason.
Nitwits already complain they cant find good fights because they have the patience and intellect of six year olds. SO harder to locate = fewer engagements. I have ALWAYS known that the icons, despite being cheesy eyesores, are an important part of maintaining high levels of action for time strapped players.
Get what you wanted out of that ankle love?
Or were you trying to give me a compliment for a brilliantly concise and effective argument? If you were, I retract the previous comment and <S> you. :D
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Finding a fight using no icons is about map size base location and directing action to intersect at a specific area of engagement by directing players flight paths to intersect in those areas of engagement.
No icons will not work as well on huge MA maps and finding a fight would be as Hi tech states ...BORRRRINGGG spending way to much time looking for action.
A MA type arena IS NOT THE PLACE FOR NO ICONS..
But in custom arenas the host can focus directed objectives to a specific area or areas on a terain allowing take off from limited base locations. Setting attack and defend objectives at these limited specific locations outlined in a MOTD..
Here is an overly simplified MOTD example...
Axis objectives: Axis aircraft is enabled at only bases A10 A3 using a compass heading of 270 attack and capture Allied bases A2 A4 As well as defend your home fields of A10 A3 ...
Allie objectives: Allied aircraft is enabled at bases A2 A4 only. Attack and capture axis fields A10 A3 using a heading of 90,As well as defend home fields of A2 A4
This will focus action, making finding a fight fast and exiting. The amount of fields used along with the distance traveled between bases is the key to action.
For instance if you have a very few players the bases need to be close.... and terrain needs to be small.
As you develop a following and outgrow smaller terrains you increase either the distance of the base locations or the size of the terrain so the its scaled to the population of the arena.
None of this will work in an MA environment using true full no icons either side.
Further using no icons either side means air craft must be either AXIS or ALLIED to determine who is friend or foe,hard to pull off with 3 countries.
NO enemy icons is a half measure. It is a recipe for gang banging and the play simply devolves as population grows. With no enemy icons only, players simply glob on to the friendly icons picking, ganging and shoulder shooting become common place. It cheapens the purity and intensity of the concept.
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No icons=greater handicap for people with smaller monitors or poor vision.
For this reason alone, I'm giving this wish a -1.
In my opinion, all the arguments in favor of no enemy icons do not overcome this negative impact. Just my $0.02.
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No icons=greater handicap for people with smaller monitors or poor vision.
For this reason alone, I'm giving this wish a -1.
In my opinion, all the arguments in favor of no enemy icons do not overcome this negative impact. Just my $0.02.
Well, there are a ton of things that give some players advantages or disadvantages.
We don't outlaw more expensive, better functioning hotas joysticks because some can only afford a 20 dollar Logitec.
We don't outlaw trackir and rudder pedals because not everyone can use or afford them.
An additional, optional arena shouldn't have to worry about such things.
But -1 for the LW main.
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Finding a fight using no icons is about map size base location and directing action to intersect at a specific area of engagement by directing players flight paths to intersect in those areas of engagement.
No icons will not work as well on huge MA maps and finding a fight would be as Hi tech states ...BORRRRINGGG spending way to much time looking for action.
A MA type arena IS NOT THE PLACE FOR NO ICONS..
You are confusing "no enemy icon" with no dar and no radar. Fights will no be harder to find with Enemy Icon Off because dar and darbar will still be working.
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Well that it depends on the dar settings.. If you set them so the dar dot always shows up that's one thing... obviously.... But at MA dar settings and a huge map it would be bad...especially with 3 country's . Besides no enemy icons should not be considered "no icon play".... 400k/ 400k or 200/200 both sides would give a far better playing experience IMO.... :)
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You are confusing "no enemy icon" with no dar and no radar. Fights will no be harder to find with Enemy Icon Off because dar and darbar will still be working.
I have to disagree, though I don't agree with most of what Raven said.
We became heavily dependent on the icons to locate other aircraft. I would challenge anyone to turn off icons for a while, fly into the combat area while scanning for other aircraft. When you cant see any, conduct a test by turning icons back on. See how often some aircraft you didn't know was there is suddenly lit up, friend or foe. Now, because you are aware of this being a test, I think the odds are not going to be as great as if your normal every day routine was to fly without icons for years on end.
I like the idea of icons off, but I think there will be a huge percentage of missed engagements. Think about how often you've just barely caught the icons of some aircraft at treetop and max icon range, turned to go after them and knew if it hadn't been for that flash of icon that they would have gotten away.
Think about how many times you were limping home wounded. You were sneaking along tree tops watching some enemy a/c that don't appear to know you're there, then they notice you. It happens a lot, and we don't realize how much more it would happen with icons off.
Dar bar is definitely part of that, but if I had to put numbers on it, I'd say you have an 85% chance of catching sight of an aircraft that is obscured or in an inconspicuous relation to yourself. With icons off, I believe that goes down to around 10%.
I would accept this drawback as a more realistic experience. It would be an additional challenge. But for the sake of the game, I think it's a better business decision to leave them on. Maybe someday it will have a large enough population to support arenas for all tastes.