Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: drdeathx on October 31, 2008, 04:17:05 PM
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Pilots,
I am looking to put together a small group of guys to train on wingman tactics. Please no negative remarks to this thread.
The requirements are as follows:
Basic skills of flying
We will establish days and times
All are welcome incuding Most experienced trainers along with non experienced wingman
Microphone is mandatory
Teamspeak communication a requirement due to out of game chat and reviewing links and dimensional drawings
Teamspeak is a voice communication software that operates off of a dedicated server which I have use of.
Here is the download to TEAMSPEAK2: ITS QUICK AND SIMPLE
http://www.goteamspeak.com/?page=downloads
Download teamspeak2 client version, then install.
Go to connection and connect. Right click on server then add server. Server address is : www.rrexlive.com
Type a nickname and choose anonymous
You should be connected. Now you will not be able to switch channels until I register yourself and others. There is an AH channel in teamspeak server. Once registered you may move btween the channels. This is a gaming server and I have a dedicated aces high channel. Again Teamspeak2 is mandatory as we can post links to neat wingman websites with formations and technique drawings to make our learning curve faster.
Any persons interested please reply to this post and I will get a list of participants. I want to limit the training to 10-15 pilots as I am relatively new to wingman tactics. The training will happen 2 nights a week to be determined for appr 2 hrs. The object is to become better pilots and team mates.
Ay ideas are welcome as we will practic TEAM FLYING!
Thank you
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GL with that Death... :salute
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I'll give him my recommendation :aok
If your interested in learning some proven tactics, ..Get together with him. You'll find he's very informative and can be hilariously funny at times.
I've flown with Death many times in the DA and can honestly say that he's genuinely interested in helping fellow AH members develop better sim pilot skills. He has a good grasp on how to get things done mission wise and will help get you kills while winging. I think you'll like whatever it is he's trying to put together. At times he has a tendency to fully immerse you in game.
Good luck DrDeath
Edit: I took this film about 6-7 months ago. We killed a few but in the end were overwhelmed. I've been told it's enjoyable to watch.
http://download397.mediafire.com/myoqx2pgewyg/1bawajpmada/me+%26+death.ahf
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And you can get this same training from a more dedicated, experienced group of trainers who don't go on expletive laden tirades, should you encounter one in the MAs. :aok
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so you can get chew out voice chat easier !
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,250271.0.html
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And you can get this same training from a more dedicated, experienced group of trainers who don't go on expletive laden tirades, should you encounter one in the MAs. :aok
:lol :lol :lol teamspeak is so you can hear him rant in a better sound quality :rofl :rofl
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HEY DWEEBS READ THE POST SERIOUS PILOTS ONLY GO TO OFFLINE PLAY! Get over it Ladies!
Sry guys... If anyone is interesred please reply a yes and I will get back to you with the days and times!
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See Rule #5
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Hub, must you be a total tool everytime you post?
:salute Doc and good luck with this endeavor
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Hub, must you be a total tool everytime you post?
:salute Doc and good luck with this endeavor
hmmm
And you can get this same training from a more dedicated, experienced group of trainers who don't go on expletive laden tirades, should you encounter one in the MAs. :aok
How is this being a tool? Sounds very reasoned to me.
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Hubson comment not directed at you sir! Nice comment, keep em coming
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Hubson read the other goofballs reply. It was not directed at your positve 1st reply. Looking for postivie response. :rock
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maybe death, if you were not such a twit, and did not scream at people on private vox you would get allot more positive responses,
the only way you will get respect from me (and maybe others in AH)
is to start a new thread, call it "i apologize"
and then go on and explain how you have ranted at players and have run your mouth,on PV, PM, and you realize this is not the way to play AH, that you are sorry for the conduct and no such conduct will ever happen again.
personally i don't think you are man enough to say this, personally i think you are a coward and a crybaby, and give you zero respect, i will not check your 6, i will not help you in any way, except to give you a hard time, BUT if you maned up and apologized to the community i would change my opinion of you.
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Ink I won't even respond about this childish remark/ If you wan't to open a discussion about this please post your own thread. This thread is for serious pilots who may want to join others in learning wingman tactics. Thank You sir.
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Geeze, why be a buzz kill to someone who's trying to change things up in the MA? Atleast he's doing something. So many people complain that it's always the same, well here's something different.
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Geeze, why be a buzz kill to someone who's trying to change things up in the MA? Atleast he's doing something. So many people complain that it's always the same, well here's something different.
lol hes doing something? trying to change things up in the MA, MA don't need to be changed up,MA is pretty much PERFECT the way it is, oh wait it does need changing, getting rid of players like drdeath, now I'm not talking about how he wants to "help" other players, (although i think that's just a cover for his twitness), there are true AHers that help other players and deserve credit for it, this player needs to be booted permanently from AH period, over 5 years I've been here I've used the squelch twice both times on this twit.
you PM me because i kill you when you are in the horde and I'm by my self, and then private Vox me swearing at me and freaking out. on a couple occasions, you drdeath are what needs to be changing in this game, and any player that will type in your name in vox channel and start saying a crap load of swears and a crap load of more stuff that i will not repeat here.
my remark is far from childish, its the truth, i don't want to open a discussion about it, until i see that apology post you are less then pondscum and i will treat you accordingly.
oh and for your information just in case you don't read, my ingame id is JETSOM. if you ever wanna apologize in game. :aok
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open your own thread Ink, Its a free country but guys may not want to page through your stuff. Thank you.
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Jetsom take it away from here. There is squelch in game use it. This thread was made for serious pilots as you see. If you can't take heat get out of kitchen all I can say. I am not engaging in an argument here..... Like I said start a thread. That will not bother me. Just leave this one alone. You have ruined it already. I think the apology should be from you to this forum. I did not bash you in a thread. The title of this thread says it all. :furious
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In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game. Our squad does it quite differently then "the books" say, with good results.
The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff. All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead. In this game it's more about a coordinated effort, not flying right next to each other. The reason for this is because rarely if ever, are you and a wingman working with another 2man element. So most times you are forced to use the two man winged pair more as 2 separate elements. Frankly if you just fly right next to the the leader you take the wingmans guns and angles out of the fight. Because if the wingman is a good flyer he is right with the leader and has the same angles as the leader and rarely if ever does he get a firing solution. So whats the point? It's just "Hollywood flying"
....more effective in my oppion is: Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions. This in my oppion is far more effective in this game. If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot. My wingman Goth and I had this down to a science. The real secret to winging in this game is not tactics per say, but experience with your wingie. I could on for page after page, but it is best if you figure this out your way.
Helm ...out
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Serious? I'm entirely serious. You, on the other hand, are a joke.
ohhh..that's gotta hurt.! :O :frown:
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In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game. Our squad does it quite differently then "the books" say, with good results.
The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff. All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead. In this game it's more about a coordinated effort, not flying right next to each other. The reason for this is because rarely if ever, are you and a wingman working with another 2man element. So most times you are forced to use the two man winged pair more as 2 separate elements. Frankly if you just fly right next to the the leader you take the wingmans guns and angles out of the fight. Because if the wingman is a good flyer he is right with the leader and has the same angles as the leader and rarely if ever does he get a firing solution. So whats the point? It's just "Hollywood flying"
....more effective in my oppion is: Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions. This in my oppion is far more effective in this game. If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot. My wingman Goth and I had this down to a science. The real secret to winging in this game is not tactics per say, but experience with your wingie. I could on for page after page, but it is best if you figure this out your way.
Helm ...out
Helm I agree with you. For years I've preached and stuck to the old standard wingman tactics. This is a game and real life wingman tactics don't translate well into the game.
It's better to be paired with somebody you're used to and loosen up the the formation allowing different angles of attack for both. At least I'm finding more success this way.
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You're right on the money with that post Helm. I usually hate the "welded" tactic, but yesterday in the BoB special event it worked very well in a 5v2 situation that SkatSr and I found ourselves in. Skat had acquired his target and 4 spits saddled up on me. I kept my line until he got the kill on the guy he was on. By this time the spits were 400&200 off me. He went slightly nose up while I went hard nose down. 2 spits followed me down and 2 stayed with SkatSr. I was getting nailed with 303s as was Skat. He broke down into me while I broke up into him, allowing each of us to get shots on each others bad guys. 3 spits down :). So now it's 2v2 and they are on the defensive. After seeing 3 of their pals get killed they are alot more cautious and seperate allowing us to concentrate on 1 at a time. We got 1 and the other run off. We got out of there with 2 kills apiece and missing all kinds of important plane parts..but it worked.
In the MA the guys in the 412th fly alot more lose but we always stay close to each other in order to clear a con or set up a shot. :salute
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In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game. ... If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot.
Those WERE "real world" wingman tactics... the thatch weave, the 2 on 1 slpit, etc. I don't think you guys have re-invented the wheel here.
Time to brush up on the wingman tactics chapters of "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manouvering" by Robert Shaw.
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Yep, If i've learned anything in this game it's that no 2 fights are the same. Adjust your tactics as the fight unfolds. 2 working together is always more productive then 2 working against each other.
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Those WERE "real world" wingman tactics... the thatch weave, the 2 on 1 slpit, etc. I don't think you guys have re-invented the wheel here.
Time to brush up on the wingman tactics chapters of "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manouvering" by Robert Shaw.
In no way am I claiming to have re-invented anything. I was trying to give the guy some advice on what works for us. I've read Shaw and I am sorry to report not all of his concepts work in this game ....and yes I am entitled to my oppion.
Helm ...out
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In no way am I claiming to have re-invented anything. I was trying to give the guy some advice on what works for us. I've read Shaw and I am sorry to report not all of his concepts work in this game ....and yes I am entitled to my oppion.
Helm ...out
I wasn't trying to be rude. Just trying to point out that in the real world they used a lot more than locked wing formation fighting (which you seemed to imply was the only tactic used) and that the tactics you described were, in fact, used in the real world.
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Gonna give a high 5 to SGTalen. He taught me a lot of wingman tactics. The thing he does is combat spread off apprx. 1000 yards apart. This allows many maunevers as an option. He taught me elements, formations and manuevers. It works quite well. The entire premise is discipline. When pilots break away from formations the wingman tactic falls apart. The objective here is to get 10-15 guys to work in the DA (private field) to get the formations and manuevers down pat. It does work well in the game but we always have the unknown factor. A 262 flying alone at 20k while climbing.
The LCA's and ArchAngelz flew a P51 wingman formation. Being newer to wing man tactics we we suppressed by a 262 abouve us(he was 23k and we were 17k). I took 3 seconds to think and made a decision to have LCA's split west and AA's proceed south. We naile the 262 for 1 reason. Nobody paniced and we stayed in 2 formations rather than 1.
I am using this example for a reason. The teamwork has to be there. No doubt about it. Sometimes there are kills and sometimes there are not but the Arch Angelz count the kills as "Team Kills". At the end of the sortie we count the kills. Sometimes 1 pilot will get 4 kills and the wingman wil get 0. The team count is 4!
Next on my mind is this: Multiple pilots flying in formation works well for the entire country sometimes. If the planning is done correctly, a nice formation can fly to a base and break a cap, suppress fighters for a base take and many other scenarios. This is why I am looking to put foward a group of guys to work on this and take it to their respective squads and/or friends.
We (aa's)have nice links to wingman tactics, formations and manuevers that we can all study to make us better pilots and have more fun with the game. There are always exeptions of pilots who fly solo and furball but after 3 years that is getting boring to me.
Just a thought!!!
death
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I'd really like to see the film of you guys underwhelming the 262 with your superior numbers, er tactics.
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The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff. All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead. In this game it's more about a coordinated effort, not flying right next to each other.
It's just "Hollywood flying"
....more effective in my opinion is: Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions. This in my oppion is far more effective in this game.
Helm ...out
I agree with you 100% Helm. Spot on post IMO also :aok
When working with someone or even alone, I find separation is usually the key to a good sortie. Knowing how to set planes up to be killed by your wingman is also very important to know how to do.
There are a few tactics that can be learned where separation is mandatory like when using the Wagon Wheel approach to cap a field. These wingman tactics can be fun and very effective but take time to learn and use properly as a group.
Working with just 1 wingman is fun and can be very productive if you know how to work together. The next level up is working with a pair of wingman. Having four guys go up and work as two sets of wingman makes getting kills very easy in most situations. IMO... Here, true wingman tactics can be used much more effectively in game.
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Hub, must you be a total tool everytime you post?
:salute Doc and good luck with this endeavor
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but after 3 years that is getting boring to me.
Just a thought!!!
death
Are you confirming you have been flying AH for 3 straight years under the name of drdeathx?
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Firmly agree with Helm and Uptown. Welded-wing doesn't work in sim as it does in RL, probably due to limited visual perspective as much as anything else. The alternative, I call Loose-wing, does allow pilots to separate some, but it's not so much specific distance that defines Loose-wing as communication and management of the engagement.
Rule One, as my squadron practices Loose-wing, is CONTINUALLY communicate back and forth with your partner, in very brief calls (using some type of Brevity Code, if you know some). Each pilots gives a running report of his position, tactical situation, and his intentions, as well as his opponent's movements, and further, what he may see of his partner's engagement and opponent. Obviously, this requires tremendous SA skill, the briefest radio comments without repetition (it's your partner's responsibility to be paying attention), and supreme coordination between pilots.
Rule Two is always stay in proximity to your partner. This means when you have the option to do so, turn your fight back towards your partner. One of the best tactics is one I call "Trade-A-Kill", whereby at some point you get a passing shot at your partner's opponent, or visa versa. And the number of times I've setup a bandit on my six purposely to allow my partner to pick him has to be approaching 4 digits. :devil
Rule Three is think ahead of the fight by winning the OODA Loop. This is too involved to explain here, but it really means practise your coordination and tactics with one wingman extensively, and your ACM decisions during combat will come quickly, easily and accurately, and faster than your opponents.
In yesturday's BoB, during our first escort sortie in 110c's, Bmathis and I held off 3-4 trailing spits from reaching our Reichmarshall's Ju-88's for over 3 sectors by simply coordinating our dives on the highest threat while the other covered against any mousetrap by the other spits. They never got near him.
On our second sortie, with the addition of Leitwolf, the three of us continually defended two sets of buffs from a squadron of Hurri's and one of Spits (plus a couple stragglers, I think) in repeated attacks. One buff pilot did lose drones, but all of us made it home.
Hunter tactics while using Loose-wing flying with a partner is, IMO, the most fun you can have in this game.
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Sloehand,
We still fly elements and yes it gets out of hand and we do proximity also (sometimes we regroup). The wingmen stay in touch and so do the elements. The objective is to be disciplined and again, not all of us come back with kills. The majority make it back from sortie alive as long as the hard deck is not broken. Some time we do it to porl a base and then go fighter. I disagree that it does not work. It may be different than flying 2 man wingman sorties but mult. wingman is fun. Just started a few moths ago but some enjoy.
Where it works nice is when you have the single enemy above you or sometimes multiple, you almost have to work proximity of even such tactics as thatch weave. Just want to learn more!
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lol hes doing something? trying to change things up in the MA, MA don't need to be changed up,MA is pretty much PERFECT the way it is, oh wait it does need changing, getting rid of players like drdeath, now I'm not talking about how he wants to "help" other players, (although i think that's just a cover for his twitness), there are true AHers that help other players and deserve credit for it, this player needs to be booted permanently from AH period, over 5 years I've been here I've used the squelch twice both times on this twit.
Really? Seems everyone except the players I know get vox rants from AAdeath. Only time I've ever had a problem with death was something minor, then we somehow became good friends. He helped me out when I had intardnet problems, and a few other times with computer problems. But hey, opinions are opinions.
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Well ..
..RL tactics fluxuated a lot ..determined by view available from the cockpit, pilot skill, and what you want to accomplish.
'Welded Wing' is viable sometimes .. as is the 'Loose Deuce' that is described above.
In AH they are all used at one time or another :)
Not ..ahem ..by me .. a lot .. but .. I see them all the time :)
-GE aka Frank
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ty 1plus have to consider source I guess
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I'll do the wingman tactic thing with ya. I'm usually leading the formations, so I cant form up on anyone for jack. (An old friend of mine, smitty93 was amazing at forming up. in a scenario, he stayed glued to me about 50 off my wing and shot off anyone who got up on our six. which happened to be like 3 or 4 people IIRC)
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I'll join in with ya, as soon as my computer and other items finally arrive to my place of residence here in Alaska which should be sometime in mid-December.
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ty 1plus have to consider source I guess
consider the source?
:rofl
you have no clue.
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And you can get this same training from a more dedicated, experienced group of trainers who don't go on expletive laden tirades, should you encounter one in the MAs. :aok
:rofl :rofl :aok
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Tactic: (Let your wingman almost get shot down), when the nme's fangs are hanging out and hes setting up his shot, close to 300 and blow him outta the sky.
LOL :aok
nothing any fancier works as often for me...
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I useda go in an get a whole bunch mad at me ..an Subby would come an pick 'em off me.
Was great fun :)
Loved her macro 'GET OFF MY LEG'
-grin-
-GE