WINGMAN TACTICS

[ink]

Geeze, why be a buzz kill to someone who's trying to change things up in the MA? Atleast he's doing something. So many people complain that it's always the same, well here's something different.

lol hes doing something? trying to change things up in the MA, MA don't need to be changed up,MA is pretty much PERFECT the way it is, oh  wait it does need changing, getting rid of players like drdeath, now I'm not talking about how he wants to "help" other players, (although i think that's just a cover for his twitness), there are true AHers that help other players and deserve credit for it,   this player needs to be booted permanently from AH period, over 5 years I've been here I've used the squelch twice both times on this twit.

you PM me because i kill you when you are in the horde and I'm by my self, and then private Vox me swearing at me and freaking out. on a couple occasions, you drdeath are what needs to be changing in this game, and any player that will type in your name in vox channel and start saying a crap load of swears and a crap load of more stuff that i will not repeat here.

my remark is far from childish, its the truth, i don't want to open a discussion about it, until i see that apology post you are less then pondscum and i will treat you accordingly.

  oh and for your information just in case you don't read, my ingame id is JETSOM. if you ever wanna apologize in game.

[drdeathx]

open your own thread Ink, Its a free country but guys may not want to page through your stuff. Thank you.

[drdeathx]

Jetsom take it away from here. There is squelch in game use it. This thread was made for serious pilots as you see. If you can't take heat get out of kitchen all I can say. I am not engaging in an argument here..... Like I said start a thread. That will not bother me. Just leave this one alone. You have ruined it already. I think the apology should be from you to this forum. I did not bash you in a thread. The title of this thread says it all. 

[Helm]

 In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game.  Our squad does it quite differently then "the books" say, with good results.

  The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff.  All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead.  In this game it's more about a coordinated effort,  not flying right next to each other.  The reason for this is because rarely if ever, are you and a wingman working with another 2man element.  So most times you are forced to use the two man winged pair more as 2 separate elements.  Frankly if you just fly right next to the the leader you take the wingmans guns and angles out of the fight. Because if the wingman is a good flyer he is right with the leader and has the same angles as the leader and rarely if ever does he get a firing solution.  So whats the point?  It's just "Hollywood flying"

....more effective in my oppion is:  Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions.  This in my oppion is far more effective in this game.  If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot.  My wingman Goth and I had this down to a science.  The real secret to winging in this game is not tactics per say, but experience with your wingie.  I could on for page after page, but it is best if you figure this out your way.


Helm ...out

[dentin]

Serious? I'm entirely serious. You, on the other hand, are a joke.

ohhh..that's gotta hurt.!       

[Shifty]

In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game.  Our squad does it quite differently then "the books" say, with good results.

  The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff.  All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead.  In this game it's more about a coordinated effort,  not flying right next to each other.  The reason for this is because rarely if ever, are you and a wingman working with another 2man element.  So most times you are forced to use the two man winged pair more as 2 separate elements.  Frankly if you just fly right next to the the leader you take the wingmans guns and angles out of the fight. Because if the wingman is a good flyer he is right with the leader and has the same angles as the leader and rarely if ever does he get a firing solution.  So whats the point?  It's just "Hollywood flying"

....more effective in my oppion is:  Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions.  This in my oppion is far more effective in this game.  If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot.  My wingman Goth and I had this down to a science.  The real secret to winging in this game is not tactics per say, but experience with your wingie.  I could on for page after page, but it is best if you figure this out your way.


Helm ...out

Helm I agree with you. For years I've preached and stuck to the old standard wingman tactics. This is a game and real life wingman tactics don't translate well into the game.
It's better to be paired with somebody you're used to and loosen up the the formation allowing different angles of attack for both. At least I'm finding more success this way.

[uptown]

You're right on the money with that post Helm. I usually hate the "welded" tactic, but yesterday in the BoB special event it worked very well in a 5v2 situation that SkatSr and I found ourselves in. Skat had acquired his target and 4 spits saddled up on me. I kept my line until he got the kill on the guy he was on. By this time the spits were 400&200 off me. He went slightly nose up while I went hard nose down. 2 spits followed me down and 2 stayed with SkatSr. I was getting nailed with 303s as was Skat. He broke down into me while I broke up into him, allowing each of us to get shots on each others bad guys. 3 spits down  . So now it's 2v2 and they are on the defensive. After seeing 3 of their pals get killed they are alot more cautious and seperate allowing us to concentrate on 1 at a time. We got 1 and the other run off. We got out of there with 2 kills apiece and missing all kinds of important plane parts..but it worked.
In the MA the guys in the 412th fly alot more lose but we always stay close to each other in order to clear a con or set up a shot.

[BaldEagl]

In my humble oppion, some standard "real world" wingman tactics are not very effective in this game.  ...  If the bandit turns on the wingman the leader gets him, if he turns on the leader the wingman has a shot. 

Those WERE "real world" wingman tactics...  the thatch weave, the 2 on 1 slpit, etc.  I don't think you guys have re-invented the wheel here.

Time to brush up on the wingman tactics chapters of "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manouvering" by Robert Shaw.

[uptown]

Yep, If i've learned anything in this game it's that no 2 fights are the same. Adjust your tactics as the fight unfolds. 2 working together is always more productive then 2 working against each other.

[Helm]

Those WERE "real world" wingman tactics...  the thatch weave, the 2 on 1 slpit, etc.  I don't think you guys have re-invented the wheel here.

Time to brush up on the wingman tactics chapters of "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manouvering" by Robert Shaw.

In no way am I claiming to have re-invented anything.  I was trying to give the guy some advice on what works for us.  I've read Shaw and I am sorry to report not all of his concepts work in this game ....and yes I am entitled to my oppion.



Helm ...out

[BaldEagl]

In no way am I claiming to have re-invented anything.  I was trying to give the guy some advice on what works for us.  I've read Shaw and I am sorry to report not all of his concepts work in this game ....and yes I am entitled to my oppion.



Helm ...out

I wasn't trying to be rude.  Just trying to point out that in the real world they used a lot more than locked wing formation fighting (which you seemed to imply was the only tactic used) and that the tactics you described were, in fact, used in the real world.

[drdeathx]

Gonna give a high 5 to SGTalen. He taught me a lot of wingman tactics. The thing he does is combat spread off apprx. 1000 yards apart. This allows many maunevers as an option. He taught me elements, formations and manuevers. It works quite well. The entire premise is discipline. When pilots break away from formations the wingman tactic falls apart. The objective here is to get 10-15 guys to work in the DA (private field) to get the formations and manuevers down pat. It does work well in the game but we always have the unknown factor. A 262 flying alone at 20k while climbing.

The LCA's and ArchAngelz flew a P51 wingman formation. Being newer to wing man tactics we we suppressed by a 262 abouve us(he was 23k and we were 17k). I took 3 seconds to think and made a decision to have LCA's split west and AA's proceed south. We naile the 262 for 1 reason. Nobody paniced and we stayed in 2 formations rather than 1.

I am using this example for a reason. The teamwork has to be there. No doubt about it. Sometimes there are kills and sometimes there are not but the Arch Angelz count the kills as "Team Kills". At the end of the sortie we count the kills. Sometimes 1 pilot will get 4 kills and the wingman wil get 0. The team count is 4!

Next on my mind is this: Multiple pilots flying in formation works well for the entire country sometimes. If the planning is done correctly, a nice formation can fly to a base and break a cap, suppress fighters for a base take and many other scenarios. This is why I am looking to put foward a group of guys to work on this and take it to their respective squads and/or friends.

We (aa's)have nice links to wingman tactics, formations and manuevers that we can all study to make us better pilots and have more fun with the game. There are always exeptions of pilots who fly solo and furball but after 3 years that is getting boring to me.

Just a thought!!!

death

[hubsonfire]

I'd really like to see the film of you guys underwhelming the 262 with your superior numbers, er tactics.

[A8TOOL]

  The real key is separation, not the classic welded wing, follow the leader stuff.  All that does is get the wingman in trouble or dead.  In this game it's more about a coordinated effort,  not flying right next to each other.

 It's just "Hollywood flying"

....more effective in my opinion is:  Flying about 1000-1500 apart you give both the leader and the wingman angles and gun solutions.  This in my oppion is far more effective in this game. 

Helm ...out

I agree with you 100% Helm. Spot on post  IMO also

When working with someone or even alone, I find separation is usually the key to a good sortie. Knowing how to set planes up to be killed by your wingman is also very important to know how to do.

There are a few tactics that can be learned where separation is mandatory like when using the Wagon Wheel approach to cap a field. These wingman tactics can be fun and  very effective but take time to learn and use properly as a group.

Working with just 1 wingman is fun and can be very productive if you know how to work together. The next level up is working with a pair of wingman. Having four guys go up and work as two sets of wingman makes getting kills very easy in most situations. IMO... Here, true wingman tactics can be used much more effectively in game.

[A8TOOL]

Hub, must you be a total tool everytime you post?

  Doc and good luck with this endeavor