Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Badboy on August 14, 2006, 05:23:47 PM
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Hi,
Following on from a message in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=183449&referrerid=2314) I have prepared the following training animation on the rolling scissors maneuver.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation10.gif)
There are a couple of other good points about the rolling scissors I should have mentioned, but I did that animation in one sitting, so I will probably re-work it at some time in the near future.
Meanwhile, I hope it helps...
Many thanks to TC for permission to use his excellent film.
Badboy
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I don't think I've ever had the "rolling scissors" explained quite so clearly...
I had the basic idea of -Rolling- but that was it...
Hats off to you sir <>
thanx for the info
Wormy1
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Nice film ..
now how about the "Escape from guys running with sissors " :D
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
Nice film ..
now how about the "Escape from guys running with sissors " :D
Run through an area with exposed, brambly, roots, and be better at it then him ;)
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... Now back to the topic at hand ... :D
Great animation, Badboy. I'm really glad you trainers are making these things, they really should go a long way to improving everyone's time in the MA... I can't tell you HOW LONG it took me to figure out what the heck the scissors were, and the rolling scissors, eh, forget it. This sort of thing should really help the new guys (and there's some nice polishing tricks in there for others, as well!)
S!
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thats fantastic stuff BBoy and TC!
a more perfect and smooth version of the rolling scissors would be hard to find.
remember though, such a long 'barrel' will only be created if both pilots use similar control imputs and throttle settings in a repeated cycle.
be carefull not to enter a rolling scissors fight when the E states are not so even or you could find yourself shot down within the first 360 revolution.
to truly master the scissors, my view is that you must be able to distingiush when and where to do them, and also that using them at the start of a fight does not mean you have to keep them up untill someone loses.
like a sports manouver or play, combining many differents moves into a single encounter is essential for success, and it will be difficult to find such a long section of rolling scissors in most fights.
S! guys, great work!
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Originally posted by Badboy
I have prepared the following training animation on the rolling scissors maneuver.
That was really a fantastic job, Badz. Thank you.
- oldman
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Excellent film, very well done. If I may, let me add a couple of points regarding "technique", in other words, how do you fly a good rolling scissors and what is your reference point. In both a rolling and flat scissors the objective is to get or remain behind your adversaries wingline forcing him to fly out in front of you. In other words, you want slower down-range travel than he has. The key to doing this is to keep your lift vector behind your adversary, a point called his "extended six". This is how you ensure that your helix angle is smaller than his. Most people just roll to put their lift vector directly on the adversary. This is fine if you're pulling for a shot but in the rolling scissors will equalize your down-range travel and, at best, keep the fight neutral and at worst you will lose any position advantage you have. By pulling for a position on his extended six you have the best chance of staying behind his wingline and forcing him out front. Also, as with any vertical moves throttle control is important as too much speed across the bottom will increase your radius and cause you to arc giving your adversary an advantage.
Mace
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could you zip the file for me badboy?
my trusty 8MB intel graphic chip here @ work has taken 20 minutes to display what I think is about 1/2 the GIF
just can't render it here. :mad:
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Originally posted by Mustaine
could you zip the file for me badboy?
Yep, but even with maximum compression it won't get any smaller, the only way I can make it smaller is to use a smaller image size... So
try this file (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation10s.gif) it has less than half the file size and should run faster.
Badboy
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Originally posted by Badboy
Yep, but even with maximum compression it won't get any smaller, the only way I can make it smaller is to use a smaller image size... So
try this file (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation10s.gif) it has less than half the file size and should run faster.
Badboy
that worked ok on this PC but i meant zip it so I could DL it and watch it @ home... I'll just leave this page up for a while and save it later is all. thanks!
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OK, embarassing windows question..Whether in IE or firefox, when I right click to attempt the save, I get a "save picture" option but no download source option. When I save the picture, i end up getting one frame of the film, not the film itself.
What am I doing wrong?
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What program you using to view it with?
Its an animated gif. If you use something like MSPaint it only shows the 1st frame. I suggest you try opening it with IE or firefox.
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Nice explanations,
however it kind of confused me, now i need help.
What is about varying the diameter of the barrel, can i widen that to make the other guy "overshoot" with his scissors?
Can i try to cut the corener by pulling a ailoron roll when on the top part and staying there while the other guy does his scissors?
I always thought the goal was to be more vertical than the other guy, which looks like a flatter angle to me. Is the goal to be more horizontal (more forward movement in the role) or is the steep angle a more vertikal role, i. e. trying to be closer to a loop than an ailoron roll?
Is it possible to "skip one revolution" as in when i have a better climbing plane i try to move my spiral higher than his and finally do a big barel going out above him?
Are there other exit strategies that can give you an advantage?
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Originally posted by Simaril
OK, embarassing windows question..Whether in IE or firefox, when I right click to attempt the save, I get a "save picture" option but no download source option. When I save the picture, i end up getting one frame of the film, not the film itself.
What am I doing wrong?
Youre not doing anthing wrong.... it *is* a picture. Animated gif. :) So just use the "save picture" to download the file. To view it, you can use browser or Windows Picture Vieweing thingy (i dont know the name in English, the one thats automatically associated with pics (double clicking them)).
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Originally posted by Schutt
Nice explanations,
however it kind of confused me, now i need help.
What is about varying the diameter of the barrel, can i widen that to make the other guy "overshoot" with his scissors?
Yes, but not directly, you do it in practice with your stick and rudder in order to keep your lift vector in lag while maintaining your best sustained turn rate.
Can i try to cut the corener by pulling a ailoron roll when on the top part and staying there while the other guy does his scissors?
Yes, particularly if your opponent is flying the scissors badly, and gives you enough turning room to convert directly onto his six. That is most likely to happen while you are at the top of your roll, and very slow, while he is at the bottom of his.
I always thought the goal was to be more vertical than the other guy, which looks like a flatter angle to me. Is the goal to be more horizontal (more forward movement in the role) or is the steep angle a more vertikal role, i. e. trying to be closer to a loop than an ailoron roll?
Yes, “more vertical” is better, if you look at the diagram below, you should see that clearly in the flight path of the victorious red pilot.
Is it possible to "skip one revolution" as in when i have a better climbing plane i try to move my spiral higher than his and finally do a big barel going out above him?
[/B]
Yes, it is possible to avoid the underside of the roll when you get to the top and you are inverted, instead of completing the downside of the roll, just unload G, use ailerons and rudder to enter another upward cycle. However, there is a danger that this will open up enough turning room to allow your opponent to exit his roll and pull directly into you for a shot. The secret is knowing that you have just enough excess power to complete the cycle, when he does not. Aircraft that have very good climb rates or are generally known to have good ability to hang on their prop’s are worth experimenting with.
Are there other exit strategies that can give you an advantage?
Once you are in a scissors, you are generally in until one of you is dead. The best way to win, is to do it better than the other guy. Most exit strategies will either get you killed, or if you manage to extend, will leave you at a distinct disadvantage. If you are desperate to exit the engagement, wait until your opponent begins his upward cycle, and you begin the downward cycle, then dive away. That won’t get you beyond guns range, but it will get you to a distance where gunnery will be more difficult. If you have the slower aircraft, don’t even try it, you are better off trying to win the scissors.
You should be able to see the relationship between the diameter, helix angle, and the other components of the rolling scissors by studying the diagram I've posted below in terms of the spring analogy.
Hope that helps…
Badboy
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/RollingScssors.jpg)
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Thank you badboy now i feel better, sorry i have some trouble understanding sometimes :).
That is about how i thought it could work but wasnt sure at all about it. My trouble with the explanation comes partly from my bad english, but i think now i understood it.
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Bumped for DF54 (and others).
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Bumped for Aces High Player: Thing
( and any others wanting help understanding the Rolling Scissors )
hope this helps visualize what we began working on tonight in the TA, see ya up for our next meeting :salute
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Where during the fight would you use cross controlling? I like to use opposite rudder at the top of my rolls to hang up there alittle longer, could this be used at the bottom of the roll as well to slow you up enough so he overshoots or do you not suggest it?
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Let's be clear as to what "cross control" means. It's when your rudder is opposite your ailerons. Left stick but right rudder for instance. It is an uncoordinated maneuver and always results in rapid loss of E because you're essentially trying to fly the plane sideways. It is a specialized maneuver that should be used sparingly.
It's great for bleeding off excessive speed in a dive or to drop in behind someone co-speed but for a rolling scissors you want to fly efficiently which means coordinated flight, not cross control so, as a general rule, there is no time that true cross controls should be used in a rolling scissors unless, perhaps, you enter the scissors with lots more e than your opponent. If you're significantly above corner and your opponent is at corner, your scissors (the barrel) can be much larger and he will be able to turn inside of you. That might be a case where (if you're committed to the scissors) you could use some cross controls to slow down but use it only at the start and only sparingly. It is very easy to bleed too much E and that's E you won't get back in a rolling scissors. Personnally, I'd bleed my extra E with G and a more vertical roll rather than use cross controls. You can use a small amount of opposite rudder to "trim" your nose position to keep your lift vector behind your opponent but you have to be careful and not look at where your nose is pointing but where your aircraft is actually going. You can fool yourself plus bleed e for no gain.
One maneuver that is useful in a rolling scissors though is the rudder roll. Once you've gained good position advantage (i.e., your opponent has moved out in front but not sufficient for a gun shot) you can transition the position advantage to an angular advantage.
As you approach the top of your scissors, you see that you've got good position but your nose is pointing 45 degrees away from your opponent. If you continue the scissors, your nose will come down and this will continue until you "catch up" to your opponent (remember, you're both flying similar flight paths). Just before you come to the top, and before your nose starts down do a rudder roll toward your opponent (this will be in the same direction as the scissors you're already using, it is not "cross controlled). If you're rolling left, then use lots of left rudder.
The rudder roll will stop your nose from dropping too much and yaw it toward your opponent. When done correctly you will then be able to cut across the circle as your opponent comes up and you should get a good planform shot or even be able to put yourself directly behind him. If you're going to try this, you MUST make sure you have a significant position advantage otherwise you'll shoot right out in front of him and you're dead.
The real advantage to the roll is that it cuts the scissors short and you can get a kill shot quicker than if you just continue the scissors until you reach a guns position. Not necessary in a one v one but if you're in a multi-bogey environment it's best to end a fight quickly.
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Excellent film, very well done. If I may, let me add a couple of points regarding "technique", in other words, how do you fly a good rolling scissors and what is your reference point. In both a rolling and flat scissors the objective is to get or remain behind your adversaries wingline forcing him to fly out in front of you. In other words, you want slower down-range travel than he has. The key to doing this is to keep your lift vector behind your adversary, a point called his "extended six". This is how you ensure that your helix angle is smaller than his. Most people just roll to put their lift vector directly on the adversary. This is fine if you're pulling for a shot but in the rolling scissors will equalize your down-range travel and, at best, keep the fight neutral and at worst you will lose any position advantage you have. By pulling for a position on his extended six you have the best chance of staying behind his wingline and forcing him out front. Also, as with any vertical moves throttle control is important as too much speed across the bottom will increase your radius and cause you to arc giving your adversary an advantage.
Mace
Wow Mace!!! :aok
I've never had this explained quite so elegant before.I have been doing this exact thing for some time now but I've never been able to explain it properly before.The "extended 6" makes a much beter term to explain this with,using "lag"it is often confussing for newer players and I 've felt I've never gotten that point across before!
:salute
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That's is the right way, but I tend to not use cross control, I cut back, which will give you more than enough distance between you, and the other player, to get your shot off.
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I don't know if it has a name or not maybe someone here would know? or would be classed as 'rolling scissors' or a defense against losing a rolling scissors I know for me it started out that way flying a 109k4 almost exclusively. If the scissors are Rolling to the right instead of following the enemy's flight path through the scissors I would almost go diagonally straight up roll right at the top and down aiming about mid wing of the opponent just out of guns on the up stroke as he starts to come down from his loop, flying inside his loop rather than trying to match it or make mine bigger.
Like I said it started off as a defence against losing a rolling scissors but I found after I had perfected it, it worked better than pure rolling scissors in a k4 against most opposition.
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I don't know if it has a name or not maybe someone here would know? or would be classed as 'rolling scissors' or a defense against losing a rolling scissors I know for me it started out that way flying a 109k4 almost exclusively. If the scissors are Rolling to the right instead of following the enemy's flight path through the scissors I would almost go diagonally straight up roll right at the top and down aiming about mid wing of the opponent just out of guns on the up stroke as he starts to come down from his loop, flying inside his loop rather than trying to match it or make mine bigger.
Like I said it started off as a defence against losing a rolling scissors but I found after I had perfected it, it worked better than pure rolling scissors in a k4 against most opposition.
Sorry Pervert but it's a bit tough to visualize this from your description but I'll take a shot.
It sounds that what you're doing is trying to transition a rolling scissors to a vertical flat scissors. A flat scissors is a scissors done predominently in one plane and is usually first thought of as a plane parrallel to the earth. Take the same scissors and rotate it 90degrees and it's a vertical flat scissors.
I take it that at the bottom as you start up you're putting your lift vector right on your opponent and once past and at the top of your vertical move you roll to again put your lift vector on him taking advantage of your smaller turn radius with a forward quarter shot opportunity on the way back down. The K4 does this very well due to it's shear power.
If your opponent doesn't want, or doesn't have the E, to play the pure vertical game and continues more of a rolling scissors (and provided you do have the E for it) your "flat scissors" will still contain lots of roll but instead of being continuous, the roll will mostly be contained at the top and bottom of your vertical move. The trick with this is to make sure you roll enough to actually pull down on a point ahead of him...i.e., where he will be, so you can stay pure vertical and get crossing shots. Also, since you're not working "behind" him make sure you don't get slow at the top or too fast across the bottom. If you do either of these, he can come out of his rolling scissors, pull directly into you and pop you.
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Wow Mace!!! :aok
I've never had this explained quite so elegant before.I have been doing this exact thing for some time now but I've never been able to explain it properly before.The "extended 6" makes a much beter term to explain this with,using "lag"it is often confussing for newer players and I 've felt I've never gotten that point across before!
Thank you Morfiend, always happy to help. Let me add a couple of things to this.
First, people ask "how far behind the opponent do you put your lift vector?" The answer is that it varies according to the geometry of the scissors. If it's a very vertical scissors with little down range travel it may be difficult to point your lift vector behind him at all, you may only be able to pull directly towards his tail. If it's this tight you may want to counter him with a pure vertical flat scissors. If the rolling scissors is more stretched out with clearly defined down range movement then you should be able to aim for a position one or two aircraft lengths behind him. If he lets you lag him by two or more aircraft lengths, the scissors will be very short as he'll shoot out front in one or two evolutions.
Also, there are two main things to look at in a rolling scissors to gauge how it's going. Can you keep your lift vector behind him and is he tending to move forward or backward on your canopy during the fight? If you can't keep the vector behind him, he will also gradually move farther and farther back on your canopy. That means you're loosing the fight and you have to adjust your lift vector, change tactics, or disengage. If you can keep the vector behind him and he's moving farther back on your canopy then you're winning.
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Nice post.. I am lucky enough to have a trainer as my CO and was shown through this. I had read and looked at the pics but the static pics really didn't give me a full explanation of how this was done.....With the 3d visual I feel this is easier to grasp and understand and when you practice and review film there will be more of an understanding of where you went right or wrong as you know what you are looking for.
Once the basic knowledge is there the little tinkering to give you that extra drag, lift, turning ability to get you in behind can begin as others have started talking about. Like I said I was lucky, had I not had this training I would probably still be carrying out these basic maneuvers wrong whilst thinking all the time I was getting it right.
Perhaps some more of these visuals for some of the staples of flight would be nice too.
Oh yes and Junky...that particular maneuver you talk of....stop it...I will not count the kill if you perform this on me again :D
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Sorry Pervert but it's a bit tough to visualize this from your description but I'll take a shot.
It sounds that what you're doing is trying to transition a rolling scissors to a vertical flat scissors. A flat scissors is a scissors done predominently in one plane and is usually first thought of as a plane parrallel to the earth. Take the same scissors and rotate it 90degrees and it's a vertical flat scissors.
I take it that at the bottom as you start up you're putting your lift vector right on your opponent and once past and at the top of your vertical move you roll to again put your lift vector on him taking advantage of your smaller turn radius with a forward quarter shot opportunity on the way back down. The K4 does this very well due to it's shear power.
If your opponent doesn't want, or doesn't have the E, to play the pure vertical game and continues more of a rolling scissors (and provided you do have the E for it) your "flat scissors" will still contain lots of roll but instead of being continuous, the roll will mostly be contained at the top and bottom of your vertical move. The trick with this is to make sure you roll enough to actually pull down on a point ahead of him...i.e., where he will be, so you can stay pure vertical and get crossing shots. Also, since you're not working "behind" him make sure you don't get slow at the top or too fast across the bottom. If you do either of these, he can come out of his rolling scissors, pull directly into you and pop you.
Yeah Mace that sounds pretty much spot on its hard to see the pattern when your flying it because its based more on what you see from the cockpit I wish I could draw a diagram lol. I tend to find I get more kills at the top of this manoeuvre when the enemy is slow as taking the crossing shot on the way down is a risky one time shot and if you miss you tend to end up in a bad position.
I guess looking at it from behind it would be kind of a semi circle? Rather than a loop?
I’ve noticed a lot of good sticks I’ve fought will go for the pure vertical in this situation and use the k4s engine to snap roll to the left at the top, gradually after 5 -6 of these I’m gasping for e and cannot follow the manoeuvre even though I may have entered in a superior or equal E state.
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If you can keep the vector behind him and he's moving farther back on your canopy then you're winning.
Opppps....just saw a typo here. It should read "he's moving farther FORWARD on your canopy", i.e., closer to your nose means your winning.
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Necro bump for importance of the animation. Picture like this is worth how many words? :devil
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Glad you found and re-posted. Lotta great info here.
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+ 10
:salute
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Yes, this is one of the better threads on rolling scissors due to Badboys' excellent animation and diagrams.
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Necro bump. :banana:
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Is that what it's called? I don't even know what an immlarman is. I just always flew on instinct.
Anyways it looks like what I lazily call a one turn reversal killshot (i just made it up... what I call it to myself is "houdini b******k"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OzpX-e8qiU
I made a video trying to explain it since it accounted for at least 25% of my kills doing this.
I can't explain anything because I don't know anything about anything. I just always played with my crappy sticks, too lazy to climb attitude. realized i could use a ki84 and learnt how to perfect a move which let it be so that I could be the one with the advantage... despite giving up alt. because I'm too lazy to climb. unless im afk and autoclmbing. also I like flying close to deck because it's fun to play chicken with trees.
anyways I think that's a vid of it and I have a section after with the fancy trails and stuff but I suggest ot just mute it because I will only confuse you because i have no idea.. I don't thiink when I play I just do stuff instinctively and I don't know how or why. ah2 has so many acm combat guides and stuff. I detest the ones that suggest ALT IS uh power or whatever. screw that. quickest way to get good is to just fly and get into trouble.. and if someone kills you doing something like this.. copy it. this move has only worked on me ONCE. I've only been done like this once ever and it was by Wilbuz. I said IM TAKING THAT. im doing that from now on. i had on idea what it was but the "wow I just got totally played, how the... " .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UITNKPidu94&list=PL77vz-H38Ob5nl-PVEm1FC6_Lq0vFztkz&index=1
Same thing against the p51 in this video, and to some extend the spit but I was never gonna geet the sights on him but got on his six but thats just disappointment to me, obv he ran trrying to drag me for skyrockso.. i neveer read anything about no SA either I just hate the ki cockpit colour so I always look around. be happy none of it is in instant view likie i use ingame.
uh if not can someone explain wtf that move is called. played near 5 damm years using it for 4 years as my main source of confidently mowing the fields with my prop.
actually I'm not sure I want to know. there should be no method ot my madness.
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Hey rumble, check out basic and advanced acm manouvres on the wiki to make sure your up to lingo, bro.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_combat_manoeuvring
Since you have been flying on instinct you will know most of these by other terms and probably not consider any of them "advanced", but it certainly helps to know what other people are talking about!
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Anyways it looks like what I lazily call a one turn reversal killshot (i just made it up... what I call it to myself is "houdini b******k"
What you did in your first video is the barrel roll defence. You notice in your video you begin by rolling around the attackers flight path (the barrel roll) so that you are lined up for a shot as the attacker overshoots. It is a defensive manoeuvre that relies on the attacker's basic mistakes for its success. Here is an animation that was originally posted on these boards back in 2006 that explains it in more detail.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif)
If you watch your first YouTube video from 5:39 to 5:59 that 20 seconds illustrates the barrel roll defence perfectly.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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Haha yea true but for the sake of explaining but, there's no point really trying to explain cause it's hindsight guesswork explanations!
I'm gonna keep ignorant because I don't get enuogh money to know manuevers and I do too much random crap like forcing overshoots by lowering gears n landin to come back up.. (tryin to find videos i have at least 2 o those) and I didn't read that on no acm page :( I just did that because I was gonna die to the spit16 anyhow , no E to do anything. so my brain told me to do something i havent attepted as last ditch and it was funny but flukey so can't really put that in a training section. If aces high 2 had prizes or money at stake I would add textbook knowledge. altho after 2-3 yhears of mainly flying ki-84- followed by 4 year hiatus.. i finally looked it's info up on the wiki. I didn't know that hte levels of flaps had names such as COMBAT FLAPS.. or exactly what speeds u could deplay them.. i'd just have a feel and keep spamming flaps anyhow.. doesnt matter. not like I ever do more but glance at speed gauge every now and then. you know how you're doing.. especially in a frank.. because it will be very honest about when you're too fast, and the thing can handle 85mph with full flaps (i learnt this fact just now, but I have known it wordlessly forever lol) interesting.
I've talked about textbook vs instinct a lot in poker discussions so I can just copy and paste my view on it then throw in ah contrast. this is so ot and such a long looking post but it's mostly c&p work reply uh.
textbook players never get good action. I think I'll just give up on making videos coherent for others! I just like workin out what I was doing, I know sure as hell what I'm explaining is not something I was thinking. I play all games I blank, so I can act and react without delay or second guessing. If it didn't work then it just registers in my head and the next time a similar spot comes a long I'm instinctively doing it differently- which can fail as well but now I'm getting a sample size of what to do, and my instincts start adapting based on memory recall. I have photographic memory so I guess how I do things is probably not great to people who don't. My logical thinking is more plodding- I'm sure others think faster than me. While I just react- see a mental image or my gut feel/instinct signals what to do. It's not some eh supernatural toejam lol. I was terrible at ah2 and I didn't even like it and if there's no money to be made I didn't want to read these guides. I can't visualize instructions and diagrams, but I had to build memory bank and get sample sizes in my brain so I could get instinctive reaction. I don't know if it's the same as "being in the zone" or whatever. I abandoned the whole golden rules of everything competitive I ever did. In FPS games I was alwaaays aggresive and pressing putting myself in tough spots.
In AH2 nothing is at stake so I didn't give a shet. I tried the whole "you must grab altitude then attack people with less"... but I'd nothign to draw visuals or gutfeel from because I didn't know what they were gonna do and how to best approach them. Cause I hadn't been in the spot down there.. but I'd get a kill here n there and it was boring rinse n repeat toejam. That's what bnz is. rinse and repeat toejam.
Poker, ended up just the same, started that before AH2. Thinking and playing textbook worked got boring and I relied on horrible players feeding me chips playing ABC while breaking even to other regulars who read the saaame books. but that was money so I know it all and I've read like 6 books- but this was like.. ALT IS MIGHT! to new players sure, you can be undefeated and slowly get kills and very little action but.. in poker I'd been experimenting and playing unconventionally because I wanted to know how to exploit competent textbook players. Not just just exploit fish by playing hand strength by the book. So I started playing super aggressive, twice the range of hands that lack significant advantages. cause fish are just super random, but then didn't make sense not to play them with random hands. This was rudimentary play back then and standard winning play. abc. At first I started having massive money swings but eventually I was like, crushing regs and fish at 4x profit and enjoying poker. Textbook stuff helped because I'd revert to it when I'd eventuall tilt a reg with my raises. Manipulation, surely I couldn't be a winner and have a good had every time I made a move and barreled them off hands. So they'd just randomly bluff with no sense of fold equity other than "he did it so im gonna do it back to him".. I didn't do it with no reason though, I did it because instincts told me they'd fold as they have time n time again... and as soon as they break the pattern I know they're gonna do something silly and voila. I've made textbook player gone into spewy mong and stacked them as you'd deal with a hoer abc to get on their six. now that u can learn in a textboook... dont ho, love hoers!! they'll say hey maaaaan im gonna just go straight towards you and you can steer me whichever way/ left right / forward either way you'll be behind me.
So I just did in AH2 what I did in poker except I skipped STUDYING it because there's nothing at stake, I figured I had to catch up on dudes who'd been playing the game for over half decade or whatever.
so i'd just fly into trouble as fast as possible, although not aimlessly. but manipulate tough situations that aren't completely imposssible and take a mental image of what you did then merge it with all the other similar spots. then if you're blank it comes instinctively... but toejam don't come to me at all if I'm thinking about what I'm doing.. I'll just hesitate and if you hesitate or delay ur deddddd...
ALthough my method of doing stuff as I said is based on my mental qualities or DISORDERS depending on how you look at things. I have obsessive personality disorder, it's good and bad- bad because I can end up awake for 2 days when it's bad and I got to do get something right... good when that ends up being rewarding.. but I will get antsy if I'm ont doing something obsessive that needs a lot of perfecting (not ocd that's different), with photographic memory (it ranges from presenting best courses of action in mindseye visuals or just merging with muscle memory- to remembering awful experiences in full detail, random irrelevant covnersations.. numbers. it's prettyt totally tubular tiring at times cause the most pointless stuff will pop up ). . I don't even find ww2 stuff fascinating. ah2 is just a perfect in a gameplay sense due to deep skilll depth- you need to sponge up a lot of toejam, so much to sample size, so THE more spots you get into, quicker instead of wasting time in the clouds the faster you learn I think this applies to anyone whether they have retard mutant brain like me or not. Definitely in the top 2-3 in skill depth games I know. despite extreme random factor of poker I put it above aces due to the deep meta game, speculative % estimations depending on opponents and crazy chaos variables. but AH is pretty ancient in terms of online gaming now. it doesn't have the bells n whistles to compliment the gameplay. kinda like war thunder doesn't have the gameplay to compliment the bells n whistles. but that draws 100x times peak players... The AH2 skill depth is best served to crazy bastards or people with a vested interest in the theme. htc want more subs they gotta get their head out of 10 years ago.. and look at awarding some people with a false sense of achievement,, or a virtual one. flyin gets old. I'll be back for a tour or two then I'll be bored again unless there's some progression toejam that i can obsess over.
What you did in your first video is the barrel roll defence. You notice in your video you begin by rolling around the attackers flight path (the barrel roll) so that you are lined up for a shot as the attacker overshoots. It is a defensive manoeuvre that relies on the attacker's basic mistakes for its success. Here is an animation that was originally posted on these boards back in 2006 that explains it in more detail.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif)
If you watch your first YouTube video from 5:39 to 5:59 that 20 seconds illustrates the barrel roll defence perfectly.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
damnit. now my brain is gonna be like "hey dude do that barrel roll defence bad boy told you it was called " and I'll be like "you don't speak just signal the hand I'm not here to listen to thinking ahhh" and then I'll die. I shouldn't have asked BUT THANKS FOr saving a lot of unwitting stix.
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Great info in this thread! I've always just focused on getting behind my opponent first before I shot them which ended up putting my lift vector in the lag pursuit. I've never really understood how it always worked, but what happens when you come across someone who knows how to do the rolling scissors and puts his lift vector in lag pursuit as well? Who wins the fight then? Does the better turner win, or does the better climber win? And if you're in the plane that will lose, what should you be doing immediately to get the upperhand again?
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I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.
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Geez, I must've been super manic hyper yesterday.
I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.
haha yea.. I always thought of it as an offensive move. 2/3 times it is me baiting and initiating it by going towards a high con and using jedi mind tricks to make them appear in my sights instead of 5000 yards out of range.
Sure enough most of them fire first or don't but I can't remember getting hit ever. If it's someone good they'll roll out when they spot it but... I've caught some of the best with it by looking incapable of it. Again it's something never mentioned in guides to how to do the move. If anything i'd call it a jedi barrel roll attack!
It's like an MMA fight. I'm in the cage, my opponent is way outside and I'm waving him in to my world.
It's all about creating an illusion and most people carry on not knownig what happened. Rather than trying to figure it out.
ACM's should only have one word!! or at lkeast a slang word. TO me it's simply a "houdini" and goes in offensive moves from a theoretical disadvantage. the fact is pilot ability dictates the advantages but it's an unknown variable. I don't even likie to call it e advnatage etc.. I just prefer saying con has E on me. If that ends up with me dead later I'll say I died to an e advantage.
No wait, I'll call it the Tyson.. after Mike Tyson.. because he knocked people out... he was shorter than all his opponent heavyweights and they had range on him (alt ) so he would bob and weave, peekaboo. that was his strength, then get on the inside which was HSI WORLD. and bam, a hook. He was an aggressive champ but that's because he negated his height disadvantage.. making people miss as he drew closer to the ko. he was aggressive and he was looking fo the kill. his opponents woujlod be under the illussion that htey were the aggressors cause they were punching first with their range but he wasn't getting hit, he was the true aggressor because he's the one who delivered the actual killshot and that's what he envisioned before his opponent even threw a jab.
Of course, there are times when you are fighting and you don't see someone coming at you until they're 1k and you pull the move off. I don't think this really changes anything because, whether you need to bait them from afar.. or spot them the last moment. if you've done this a thousand times then you know you're still the aggressor because you've spotted him and decided in the same split second amount of itme it takes to go on the attack.,.. if you spot someone and they're already 600-400 going fast ... then use a defensive move oof getting outta the way because you're not gonna have them slow enough to attack.
to me, defensive is when you are simply avoiding someones attack. but this, move I'm not avoiding his attack, I'm attacking because what he perceives as him attacking is, simply him allowing me to eat his children.
So I shall call it Tyson / Houdini.. or better yet "peekaboo", which was mike tysons style of fighting.
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I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.
The catch is that those possibilities are only there if you have an opponent who doesn't know what they are doing. To make it work, you need the attacker to cooperate and solve some of your BFM problems for you.
That happens all too often. The reason is that learning those aggressive defensive skills is easier, you just fly into the nearest dogfight on the deck and have fun, you pick it all up as you go along and have a blast in the process, just as RumbleB described. Learning how to use an energy advantage properly is more difficult because you get to try it less often, it isn't so much fun climbing out and working for an advantage and in my experience players find the techniques involved more difficult to learn.
The bottom line is that if you are flying against a good pilot, the maneuver has almost no offensive potential because better pilots won't make the sequence of basic mistakes needed to set themselves up for it.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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So I shall call it Tyson / Houdini.. or better yet "peekaboo", which was mike tysons style of fighting.
Of course you can call any maneuver what ever you want. But in every activity we become involved in, our occupations, sports or hobbies, if you decide to participate it helps to learn the terminology adopted by those already involved, so that you can communicate with them effectively. That is particularly true while you are learning, or you will not understand so easily when people try to help. Making up your own terminology and names is fine for something you invented or has never been seen before, which is exactly what has happened in air combat in the past, which is why maneuvers are named after pilots, like the Immelmann, Lufbery, Thach weave and so on. The problem with inventing new names for maneuvers that have been around for a long time and already have names or associated terminology is just the confusion it causes. Most people try to learn and communicate with the existing established names, because trying to reinvent the wheel simply isn't worth the effort or confusion.
Hope that helps
Badboy
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I wrote a long reply on why I think saying the trite one and only method to learning is good and it exceeded length so I'll put it here in a text file.
I'm not a fan of "there's only one way".. since i was on the forefront new young pokker players ripping up the textbooks and destroying 40 years of abc crap.
http://www.pastebin.ca/2351815
Be careful not to get offended by random spots of sarcasm meant not to insult but to be obtuse. also I'm a basterd with a complete disregard of social norms, english is my third language and ... also I'm crazy but often logically sound. or dont read this part.
Here's an essay on re-inventing the wheel (hehe, actually funnoily enough by telling people the most counterproductive way of learning to become a good stick in the fastest manner you're the one tryign to re-invent the wheel but I elaborate in detail in this text).
(I'm gonna make this my guide and direct new players to it and we'll see more funtime cuddlefest collision fightin)
http://www.pastebin.ca/2351815
If you're not doing this against good sticks you're not good (or ur good but not great at THIS MOVE i mean, im sure u can beat me ez at co-e 20k alt in some weird plane or something.. or maybe not, because I do weird toejam) and don't understand exactly what I've been talking about being ommitted about it.. The most important part people do not explain which I can understand because this is hard to explain and... actually the wheel has been improved on many damn times so I think that's an idiom I find amusing.
I've got a ton of films catching out good sticks with it by disguising it at other angles so I'm not sure you've come close to understandign the real fundamendals of it (I don't either, but I clearly throughh practicing it more know how to tweak disguise it which is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART). and if i dont catch em they're not gonna have a gross time killing me because I'm not murdering all my E if I can see danger in doing so. but no one writes about that either.. this is instinct toejam, that's why textbooking is dumb because it limimts you and makes you exploitable and you think you're doing things to perfection when you haven't even come close to the skill ceiling of it. As I said.. sample size.. I induced this so many times I think I've pulled it off and found the little tweaks that you might not have discovered.. at least if you make a statemenet like that when I'm sitting on a library full of it (even 2007 dated ones where i'd only been playing 2 years on and off) against vets + regarded as not good but great sticks. as I've said, it's something I do at least once a sortie..
I had this uploaded from the other day but if i could be bothered (this move is so standard and boring to me now that i'd rather make films of other stuff like drunken E management which I put up before..). still it bugs me that you say that when I have the proof to back it up and I find it slightly arrogant for you to say that- assuming that you know it to perfection, but it's clear that you simply do not know how to do it against good sticks.. Never? work? The film I posted s the most rudmimentary flat one I could find as it was easiest to explain. I did it against good players FREQUENTLY- and didn't save half of the films because it probably accounted for more kills than dead six shooting... so i think its standard
This is how i'd modify vs a good stick. need I post films of everyone i pull it off so you can say they're not good? It's entirely possible. this isn't even about it. I have way cleaner ones and youd probably not like to call the peeople done in em not good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLlhUQQG-vQ&list=PL77vz-H38Ob5nl-PVEm1FC6_Lq0vFztkz
I can upload more, u can dispute this is not that move.. then im gonna have to waste more time encoding films but they'[re boring to me because they're so standard. but it's a simple case of modifying angle.. the video I showed was the mos tmundane simple way to do it vs average/competent. I'll know whether it's a good stick approaching and I need to set it up and disguise it differently.
It's the same as in poker.. metagame. the stronger your opponent is the more deceit is applied (i play poker for a living)
This is so funny. it's like when istarted holdem online and dinosaurs had beeen playing for decades before I was born... I'd 4 table which was crazy until I was 12 tabling and 16 tabling.. playing thousands of hands per hour vs 35 hands per hour of a live veteran player... I'd played more hands aand seen twice as many spots while playing against others like me- mass hand while they were hunting whales who'd played a bit a game or two... Who do you think started getting crushed by the new high volume players who took a different approach to playing? nonstandard betting lines, coining pretty much every new phrase while calculating betsizing to perfection.. when VETS thought they knew betsizinnnn but overshoving was apparantly not the optimal play.
Aces high wont keep a crowd. because it's great skillgame poorly explained by old ways (woohooo 50 years ago theyh did this.. in real life.. because else they'd die). when there's a toejam wannabe multiplayer flight sim game getting 100x the crowd that doen't have a fraction of the time in development. why? because they're progressive and open their eyes to how to draw players in... it's simple, dont make everything seem so complex, add a dummy arcade mde for mouse users then they get curious about improving the eperience and get a stick.. 4 years and thre's been one Idea.. and a skin or two. I loathe stagnation with the assumnption that something is perfect when there is measure to do so. sorry but your comment that it doesn't work against good sticks suggests just such a thing... regged in 2000 and you come out with that?
I want to call wht is a horribly mistermed move a peekabooo or a dingleberry I will because barrel roll defense is just silly and this is a game, with reinvented ww2 flight combat. or whatever. if you think ur in ww2 flight combat you're almost as nuts as me. it's a computer skillgame and lets call it what it is. ., if I use a move to kill someone consisntetnly without them touching me, logically it's not a defensive move is it? I'm an MMA fighter I never once DEFENDED by knocking someone out. I check kicks. that's defence. but I don't check a kick to attack. I check a kick not to get a stiff leg. I defend a guard pass because it's really uncomfortable when someone accidentally or on purposeputs 200lbs of pressure into your damn balls trying to get to halfguard... but it's not gonna knock them out or sub them. it'sjust gonna keep my balls not squashed. so I defend. I defend subsmissions, and jitz there are more finishing moves than in aces high and not one of them is a defence. a sub is a sub and that's attacking with submissions. not defending. there's no defensive omaplata or twister thiis is so contradictory my head spins.
(p.s. don't worry I won't call it a dingleberry... barrel roll defence it shall be. and what I do is something different then.. cause it's a move that has killed top sticks. also im joking, i always knew what an immelman was it's the one where you land on top of a pilot so he cant vulch with is acp.)
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Holy crap, you've got a lot of time on your hands to write that bro, we should hang out and catch up sometime instead! ;-)
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Haha well you know i type liek 110-120 wpm and I have no buffer even if I'm tired, describing stuff in AH I speak at 20wpm and 50uh whats happening a film. But I'm here to help... Plus I was compiling and uploading another video while waiting fomr some food.
If I'm irate (not at a person but an misconception I see common,.. I llike to make sure people realize that there's more skill depth than they thought and quicker ways to get deep than the path of the autoclimber, as perhaps this will attract some more players (I'm trying to casually mention it to war thunder players because I saw what is blatantly the russian devs making 1 post acccounts on here spamming about it- so I put war thunder tags the videos too ha ha.. Russian devs being shady)...I really think the game needed some contrasting training advice, rather than advice from early 20th century to 15 years ago...) and I'm not a super genius, as is blatant. Just a normal one.
Yeah, I'm surprised to see you playing. I hope you managed to be blessed with a stick that doesn't require a two handed grip.
Well we have poker nights in town (just tiny buyins and I'm usually spewing donating buyins because I don't like live poker- physuically looking at your cards blev.. I just move all in especially with buyins that are my normal bb's). Koopa if you remember from Quake. I'm northside dublin in Swords/ I'll be in Sweden for a month though in may. Haven't been for 4.5 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeUrPHPRXSI&feature=youtu.be
more variation of it... now with alt. As you can see it's my main mode of attack no roadkill... it's a very humiliating to people and will tilt them and they'll come and fall for a different variation of it once more... even as a 1 year total tour "dweeb" with good effect and accuracy- and I continued doing this for the rest of my time. I was really obessed by being able to kill everyone with as close margins as possible in it...
Anyways I should probably learn this rolling scissor at some point too!!! but my I need to practice my gears out full flaps bounce down on deck and up behind an overshooting spit9 who was too crosseyed to hit me with his cannons. what's the called? surely there's no name for doing that ?
Think I'll put a video up for it (3 of em uh except one this tree thing just comes n rams me and it doesn't look as cool cause trees are cheat god mode)
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but my I need to practice my gears out full flaps bounce down on deck and up behind an overshooting spit9 who was too crosseyed to hit me with his cannons. what's the called? surely there's no name for doing that ?
Think I'll put a video up for it (3 of em uh except one this tree thing just comes n rams me and it doesn't look as cool cause trees are cheat god mode)
Yucca, Nomde, BluKitty and others were bouncing their P47 Jug's landing gear off the ground causing unknowing attackers to overshoot something like around the time of 2003 thru 2005 or there abouts........
I always refered to it as "The 56th FG jug mudnuever".......... rofl.....
don't care much for World Of Planes / known now as War Thunder...... even though I am still getting emails and updates from Trojan and others, and they asked everyone for their signed NDA's the other day, yet mine was signed and turned in nearly 2 years ago or more for the Alpha testing... but it seems they are alpha testing something else again, now...... eye candy arcade is not in my interest, hence, I gave it up during closed beta.......
not sure why someone would bring up the subject of another game in this particular forum, and would rather see such posts made in the o'club instead .......
I thought this was one of the better help & training threads in this forum, up until the last 2 or 3 days........
I never knew you was such a badarse awesome pile-it RumbleB......... in the virtual Aces High Sky.......
There is nothing NEW under the Sun, especially when it comes to WWII Online combat Flight Sims / MMOGs ......... and in my nearly 19 to 20 years of playing these, I have yet to see someone invent something new or never seen before.....
as for gambling and playing texas holdem, it is so much more fun to play it in person at a real table, instead of looking at a computer screen and tooting one's horn on how many muitiple hands they can play at the same time.... online WPT tournaments for seeding can be a lil fun though at times.....
carry on with being arrogant and as you called yourself, remaining ignorant........ ( I think I read that right in one of your wall's of text above )
here is hoping to this thread recovering from such an uneeded and wasteful side tracking
Good Day, Everyone! :cheers:
TC
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I play poker for a living I don't play it to enjoy it so don't be a twonk. I've a casino club I can go to here if I want to, you think I'm gonna plod through and earnt a tenth of what I can online next to some drunken fool witha bad stench? I lived in Las Vegas for 3 months and it was enough for me to be put off live poker, other than the fact that 1. online poker is tougher but you can earn more. Anyways~
You seem more Golly-geened ignorant than me.
Why would I care if you gamble in a casino or not? The fact that you think poker is a gamblign game speaks for itself,
http://www.pastebin.ca/2351815 If this doesn't come across as logical to you then you've never done anything copmetitively remarkable in your life to understand... but maybe you're a beer drinking champion :)
I play it for al living online, because I get thousands of hands in per hour and made near quarter million online as an 18 year old in 2004. 16 tabling 6max isn't that special. It's the max I can handle, a friend of mine drags in 2-3 mill a year cause he 24 tables perfectly. What I'm saying is, kids reinvented the game by learning in an aggressive manner, which was a simple analogy to .. I'm gonna guess you have no idea what analogies are.
I'm posting a theory on alternative ways of learning, faster.
I don't give a toejam about being a virtual bad ass. I get beat up in MMA training (that'd be cagefighting) and I don't consider myself a badass there either but I've alot of extremely diffiicult achievements to draw from, do you?. I said I played Aces High for fun- there's no risk or reward other than fun. to me was being able to duke it out with top guns and playing with the squad that holds every toc win since blukitty gave up after the first one. I'm posting while waiting for my new stick and trying to get a feel for how things have gone to change in 4 years... Until then I came to discuss lightheartedely only to get pointlessly needled. Alright then thanks for letting me know about hte jug thing, at least you did post something informative between the graspin. I've never even heard or seen you play so if you're a trainer then feel free to refer me to some of your trainer material here. Perhaps I'll learn something since You know everything there is abuot AH2, I don't. I just know how to fly ki-84's and do one move over and over in different variations or muck about in a temp and random planes- but I could hang with anyone so.. teach me something great master.
I've played with blukitty and Yucca. Well, hard to perform a jug mudnuever in a ki-84 as it's not much of a jug. I guess I get ot be the first one to do it in a ki then but I'm sure Wilbuz did it a ton too as he was craftier than both of em.- and was the one who taught me through fire how to do this manuever. Which I've successfully done on blukitty fyi and it was fun cause she'd messd me up on many occassions.
I wanted to catch up to old vets fast because being clueless wasn't fun.I explain in the text file an alternative way of learning- as a viable option for new players to help the game grow. And I just wanted to bounce the theory off and you're just being petty.
War Thunder is a bad game period, They just have a front end that's good. I'm so soorrry I offended you by mentoning anything at all, you must be seriously bitter to attack someone who already used self depreciative humour and if you actually bothered to read the text and- annd maybe figure out that my posts were relevant enough.
I was simply concerned that perhaps aces high should look to update and keep with the curve- but they're doing that with achievements at least which is a small porton of wt's front end.. so that's a good point.
You think mmogs haven't changed at all in 20 years? Seriously what are you drinking mate, because it must be blinding stuff.. I'm more reasonable on absinthe. Maybe I should send you a bottle so to avoid further attempts at belittling my posts. I don't quite want to bother trying to figure out why on earth... all the conclusions I'd arrive at wouldn't be kind.
I never talked to you or addressed you anyhow.
Have you heard of hypocrisy? no?
How is this glorious thread going to recover when you're baiting me to answer your (what I ohpe is) drunken attempt at baiting me.
Seriously, are you in what, your 50s and baiting on forums? Well you're good at it. So well done, you must practice a lot because the best way of annoying people is to- completely take things out of context whihle igonring anything useful they might have to say. That is such a petty little thing to do. Are you that offended that I might have had a differeing view on your AINT NUFFIN GONE BE BETTER DAN DIS HERE BE? Did you seriously bother reading the text file before debunking me because you've said nothing than what an old biter man would say. Decide if you're gonna be childish or old and bitter. E
The only thing you make sense about is that I should post my suggestions in a new thread but I wanted to know the names of what I Was doing. I'm lightheartedely making a suggestion that it's almost a bit of anology to how tyson fought.
I'm still discussing aces high training, you're just needling me over some irrelevant trivial thing. I use poker as an analogy too. Doyle Brunson hadn't seen anything new in 40 years, people read and played by his book which was so dated for 20 years and is irrelevant now. So what? Should this make you extremely close minded. I haven't said I'v einvented anything new. I just said that there perhaps is a better way of learning since I was able to do age old vets had been learning for decades in a year. and this is not a brag, I said it to support my theory that perhaps you could suggest to new players that what I describe in the text file. I speak frankly with a hint of sarcasm.
Are you attacking the fact that I refuted the statement that you can't do the barrel roll defence against good players frequently?
I talked about poker and everything pertinent to the discussion that was going on. You're just posting to incite picking at my post, perhaps you lack reading comprehension.. I don't care. but that's just petty. I'm sorry also for speaking with TOrquila it was offtopic- but not the whole post- I posted another video to address the statement that nobody good will fall for the move.someone I know in person who I haven't seen or talked to for years. I was surprised he was playing.
So, what exactly is your problem here? Because all I see is someone doing an outmost childish petty thing. If you're adamant to not want people not as old as you (that somehow makes you wiser and all encompassing does it?) to make suggestions or perhaps post someting helpful. I wrote that I might be wrong but it's still a valid theory because I'm proof of it. I play for fun... I try to open a debate but I hope there aren't too many guys like you around then.
There enjoy a wall of text reasoning. If you're gonna bait and try to bully people out by butchering my post then I remember the AH2 crowd being a good bunch completely wrong. Although I've photographic memory and your name never appeared. I'm a bit crazy and excessive but I'm in MENSA so I'm not truly foreign to logic. Props if you managed to read any of this and understand it with reason. I doubt it, out in the country sounds just like where you're at.
:cheers: < cutting you off that man. :old: :old: :old: :old: :old: :old: :old: :old:\\
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You know what, you can have your precious forum section and threads to be just the way you want them. Unwelcoming and petty. Nevermind you... everyone else has been cool still. SOrry to everyone else for making a sugggestion/advice or posting a video or 7.
torq, sry dragging you into some petty forum sing song.
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Heya rumbleb,
I'm on my phone reading your post/reply to my previous post, to where I answered your question of if someone has ever dropped their gear and did a quick touch and go to cause an attacker to overshoot...
I'll follow up later, when I can get back to my PC... I will also download or click the links to your utube videos and also read your training theory writeup...
I am not bitter, I am not drinking nor have I been... and no sir, I was not and i am not trying to bait you in any way...
I'll post again after I have read your stuff you linked to, and watched your videos
TC
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Ah, don't worry bout me bro, not a bother; lol.
I "invented" something myself recently for twin engine planes!
When you are in the full vertical, lacking the E to fully line up a ho shot and your opponent is diving really fast straight 12 to 12. At around 800, zero out the prop on one side and follow with balanced rudder and start firing as your nose is just above the horizon. Zero out the running prop at that point to regain control.
If you do it right, with a bit of luck they will fly right through your bullet stream!
:D
I call it; the crouching hammerhead, hidden rumbleB XD