Rolling Scissors (Training Animation)

[Max]

Glad you found and re-posted. Lotta great info here.

[lulu]

+ 10


 

[Mace2004]

Yes, this is one of the better threads on rolling scissors due to Badboys' excellent animation and diagrams.

[deadstikmac]

Necro bump. 

[RumbleB]

Is that what it's called? I don't even know what an immlarman is. I just always flew on instinct.

Anyways it looks like what I lazily call a one turn reversal killshot (i just made it up... what I call it to myself is "houdini b******k"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OzpX-e8qiU

I made a video trying to explain it since it accounted for at least 25% of my kills doing this.
I can't explain anything because I don't know anything about anything. I just always played with my crappy sticks, too lazy to climb attitude. realized i could use a ki84 and learnt how to perfect a move which let it be so that I could be the one with the advantage... despite giving up alt. because I'm too lazy to climb. unless im afk and autoclmbing. also I like flying close to deck because it's fun to play chicken with trees.

anyways I think that's a vid of it and I have a section after with the fancy trails and stuff but I suggest ot just mute it because I will only confuse you because i have no idea.. I don't thiink when I play I just do stuff instinctively and I don't know how or why. ah2 has so many acm combat guides and stuff.  I detest the ones that suggest ALT IS uh power or whatever. screw that. quickest way to get good is to just fly and get into trouble.. and if someone kills you doing something like this.. copy it. this move has only worked on me ONCE. I've only been done like this once ever and it was by Wilbuz. I said IM TAKING THAT. im doing that from now on. i had on idea what it was but the "wow I just got totally played, how  the... " .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UITNKPidu94&list=PL77vz-H38Ob5nl-PVEm1FC6_Lq0vFztkz&index=1

Same thing against the p51 in this video, and to some extend the spit but I was never gonna geet the sights on him but got on his six but thats just disappointment to me, obv he ran trrying to drag me for skyrockso.. i neveer read anything about no SA either I just hate the ki cockpit colour so I always look around. be happy none of it is in instant view likie i use ingame.


uh if not can someone explain wtf that move is called. played near 5 damm years using it for 4 years as my main source of confidently mowing the fields with my prop.
actually I'm not sure I want to know.  there should be no method ot my madness.

[Torquila]

Hey rumble, check out basic and advanced acm manouvres on the wiki to make sure your up to lingo, bro.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_combat_manoeuvring

Since you have been flying on instinct you will know most of these by other terms and probably not consider any of them "advanced", but it certainly helps to know what other people are talking about!

[Badboy]

Anyways it looks like what I lazily call a one turn reversal killshot (i just made it up... what I call it to myself is "houdini b******k"

What you did in your first video is the barrel roll defence.  You notice in your video you begin by rolling around the attackers flight path (the barrel roll) so that you are lined up for a shot as the attacker overshoots. It is a defensive manoeuvre that relies on the attacker's basic mistakes for its success. Here is an animation that was originally posted on these boards back in 2006 that explains it in more detail.



If you watch your first YouTube video from 5:39 to 5:59 that 20 seconds illustrates the barrel roll defence perfectly. 

Hope that helps.

Badboy

[RumbleB]

Haha yea true but for the sake of explaining but, there's no point really trying to explain cause it's hindsight guesswork explanations!
I'm gonna keep ignorant because I don't get enuogh money to know manuevers and I do too much random crap like forcing overshoots by lowering gears n landin to come back up.. (tryin to find videos i have at least 2 o those) and I didn't read that on no acm page I just did that because I was gonna die to the spit16 anyhow , no E to do anything. so my brain told me to do something i havent attepted as last ditch and it was funny but flukey so can't really put that in a training section. If aces high 2 had prizes or money at stake I would add textbook knowledge. altho after 2-3 yhears of mainly flying ki-84- followed by 4 year hiatus.. i finally looked it's info up on the wiki. I didn't know that hte levels of flaps had names such as COMBAT FLAPS.. or exactly what speeds u could deplay them.. i'd just have a feel and keep spamming flaps anyhow.. doesnt matter. not like I ever do more but glance at speed gauge every now and then. you know how you're doing.. especially in a frank.. because it will be very honest about when you're too fast, and the thing can handle 85mph with full flaps (i learnt this fact just now, but I have known it wordlessly forever lol) interesting.

I've talked about textbook vs instinct a lot in poker discussions so I can just copy and paste my view on it then throw in ah contrast. this is so ot and such a long looking post but it's mostly c&p work reply uh.

textbook players never get good action. I think I'll just give up on making videos coherent for others! I just like workin out what I was doing, I know sure as hell what I'm explaining is not something I was thinking. I play all games I blank, so I can act and react without delay or second guessing. If it didn't work then it just registers in my head and the next time a similar spot comes a long I'm instinctively doing it differently- which can fail as well but now I'm getting a sample size of what to do, and my instincts start adapting based on memory recall. I have photographic memory so I guess how I do things is probably not great to people who don't. My logical thinking is more plodding- I'm sure others think faster than me. While I just react- see a mental image or my gut feel/instinct signals what to do. It's not some eh supernatural toejam lol. I was terrible at ah2 and I didn't even like it and if there's no money to be made I didn't want to read these guides. I can't visualize instructions and diagrams, but I had to build memory bank and get sample sizes in my brain so I could get instinctive reaction. I don't know if it's the same as "being in the zone" or whatever.  I abandoned the whole golden rules of everything competitive I ever did. In FPS games I was alwaaays aggresive and pressing putting myself in tough spots.

In AH2 nothing is at stake so I didn't give a shet. I tried the whole "you must grab altitude then attack people with less"... but I'd nothign to draw visuals or gutfeel from because I didn't know what they were gonna do and how to best approach them. Cause I hadn't been in the spot down there.. but I'd get a kill here n there and it was boring rinse n repeat toejam. That's what bnz is. rinse and repeat toejam.

Poker, ended up just the same, started that before AH2. Thinking and playing textbook worked got boring and I relied on horrible players feeding me chips playing ABC while breaking even to other regulars who read the saaame books. but that was money so I know it all and I've read like 6 books- but this was like.. ALT IS MIGHT! to new players sure, you can be undefeated and slowly get kills and very little action but.. in poker I'd been experimenting and playing unconventionally because I wanted to know how to exploit competent textbook players. Not just just exploit fish by playing hand strength by the book. So I started playing super aggressive, twice the range of hands that lack significant advantages. cause fish are just super random, but then didn't make sense not to play them with random hands. This was rudimentary play back then and standard winning play. abc. At first I started having massive money swings but eventually I was like, crushing regs and fish at 4x profit and enjoying poker. Textbook stuff helped because I'd revert to it when I'd eventuall tilt a reg with my raises. Manipulation, surely I couldn't be a winner and have a good had every time I made a move and barreled them off hands. So they'd just randomly bluff with no sense of fold equity other than "he did it so im gonna do it back to him".. I didn't do it with no reason though, I did it because instincts told me they'd fold as they have time n time again... and as soon as they break the pattern I know they're gonna do something silly and voila. I've made textbook player gone into spewy mong and stacked them as you'd deal with a hoer abc to get on their six. now that u can learn in a textboook... dont ho, love hoers!! they'll say hey maaaaan im gonna just go straight towards you and you can steer me whichever way/ left right / forward either way you'll be behind me.

So I just did in AH2 what I did in poker except I skipped STUDYING it because there's nothing at stake, I figured I had to catch up on dudes who'd been playing the game for over half decade or whatever.
so i'd just fly into trouble as fast as possible, although not aimlessly. but manipulate tough situations that aren't completely imposssible and take a mental image of what you did then merge it with all the other similar spots. then if you're blank it comes instinctively... but toejam don't come to me at all if I'm thinking about what I'm doing.. I'll just hesitate and if you hesitate or delay ur deddddd...

ALthough my method of  doing stuff as I said is based on my mental qualities or DISORDERS depending on how you look at things. I have obsessive personality disorder, it's good and bad- bad because I can end up awake for 2 days when it's bad and I got to do get something right... good when that ends up being rewarding.. but I will get antsy if I'm ont doing something obsessive that needs a lot of perfecting (not ocd that's different), with photographic memory (it ranges from presenting best courses of action in mindseye visuals or just merging with muscle memory- to remembering awful experiences in full detail, random irrelevant covnersations.. numbers. it's prettyt totally tubular tiring at times cause the most pointless stuff will pop up ). .  I don't even find ww2 stuff fascinating. ah2 is just a perfect in a gameplay sense due to deep skilll depth- you need to sponge up a lot of toejam, so much to sample size, so THE more spots you get into, quicker instead of wasting time in the clouds the faster you learn I think this applies to anyone whether they have retard mutant brain like me or not. Definitely in the top 2-3 in skill depth games I know. despite extreme random factor of poker I put it above aces due to the deep meta game, speculative % estimations depending on opponents and crazy chaos variables. but AH is pretty ancient in terms of online gaming now. it doesn't have the bells n whistles to compliment the gameplay. kinda like war thunder doesn't have the gameplay to compliment the bells n whistles. but that draws 100x times peak players... The AH2 skill depth is best served to crazy bastards or people with a vested interest in the theme. htc want more subs they gotta get their head out of 10 years ago.. and look at awarding some people with a false sense of achievement,, or a virtual one. flyin gets old. I'll be back for a tour or two then I'll be bored again unless there's some progression toejam that i can obsess over.

What you did in your first video is the barrel roll defence.  You notice in your video you begin by rolling around the attackers flight path (the barrel roll) so that you are lined up for a shot as the attacker overshoots. It is a defensive manoeuvre that relies on the attacker's basic mistakes for its success. Here is an animation that was originally posted on these boards back in 2006 that explains it in more detail.

(Image removed from quote.)

If you watch your first YouTube video from 5:39 to 5:59 that 20 seconds illustrates the barrel roll defence perfectly.  

Hope that helps.

Badboy

damnit. now my brain is  gonna be like "hey dude do that barrel roll defence bad boy told you it was called " and I'll be like "you don't speak just signal the hand I'm not here to listen to thinking ahhh" and then I'll die. I shouldn't have asked BUT THANKS FOr saving a lot of unwitting stix.

[Latrobe]

Great info in this thread! I've always just focused on getting behind my opponent first before I shot them which ended up putting my lift vector in the lag pursuit. I've never really understood how it always worked, but what happens when you come across someone who knows how to do the rolling scissors and puts his lift vector in lag pursuit as well? Who wins the fight then? Does the better turner win, or does the better climber win? And if you're in the plane that will lose, what should you be doing immediately to get the upperhand again?

[Torquila]

I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.

[RumbleB]

Geez, I must've been super manic hyper yesterday.

I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.

haha yea.. I always thought of it as an offensive move. 2/3 times it is me baiting and initiating it by going towards a high con and using jedi mind tricks to make them appear in my sights instead of 5000 yards out of range.
Sure enough most of them fire first or don't but I can't remember getting hit ever. If it's someone good they'll roll out when they spot it but... I've caught some of the best with it by looking incapable of it. Again it's something never mentioned in guides to how to do the move. If anything i'd call it a jedi barrel roll attack!

It's like an MMA fight. I'm in the cage, my opponent is way outside and I'm waving him in to my world.

It's all about creating an illusion and most people carry on not knownig what happened. Rather than trying to figure it out.

ACM's should only have one word!! or at lkeast a slang word. TO me it's simply a "houdini" and goes in offensive moves from a theoretical disadvantage. the fact is pilot ability dictates the advantages but it's an unknown variable.  I don't even likie to call it e advnatage etc.. I just prefer saying con has E on me. If that ends up with me dead later I'll say I died to an e advantage.

No wait, I'll call it the Tyson.. after Mike Tyson.. because he knocked people out... he was shorter than all his opponent heavyweights and they had range on him (alt ) so he would bob and weave, peekaboo. that was his strength, then get on the inside which was HSI WORLD. and bam, a hook. He was an aggressive champ but that's because he negated his height disadvantage.. making people miss as he drew closer to the ko. he was aggressive and he was looking fo the kill. his opponents woujlod be under the illussion that htey were the aggressors cause they were punching first with their range but he wasn't getting hit, he was the true aggressor because he's the one who delivered the actual killshot and that's what he envisioned before his opponent even threw a jab.

Of course, there are times when you are fighting  and you don't see someone coming at you until they're 1k and you pull the move off. I don't think this really changes anything because, whether you need to bait them from afar.. or spot them the last moment. if you've done this a thousand times then you know you're still the aggressor because you've spotted him and decided in the same split second amount of itme it takes to go on the attack.,.. if you spot someone and they're already 600-400 going fast ... then use a defensive move oof getting outta the way because you're not gonna have them slow enough to attack.

to me, defensive is when you are simply avoiding someones attack. but this, move I'm not avoiding his attack, I'm attacking because what he perceives as him attacking is, simply him allowing me to eat his children.

So I shall call it Tyson / Houdini.. or better yet "peekaboo", which was mike tysons style of fighting.

[Badboy]

I like rumble's term for it better cause defense is a general term and there are so many possibilities in that manouvre.

The catch is that those possibilities are only there if you have an opponent who doesn't know what they are doing. To make it work, you need the attacker to cooperate and solve some of your BFM problems for you.

That happens all too often. The reason is that learning those aggressive defensive skills is easier, you just fly into the nearest dogfight on the deck and have fun, you pick it all up as you go along and have a blast in the process, just as RumbleB described. Learning how to use an energy advantage properly is more difficult because you get to try it less often, it isn't so much fun climbing out and working for an advantage and in my experience players find the techniques involved more difficult to learn.

The bottom line is that if you are flying against a good pilot, the maneuver has almost no offensive potential because better pilots won't make the sequence of basic mistakes needed to set themselves up for it.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Badboy]

So I shall call it Tyson / Houdini.. or better yet "peekaboo", which was mike tysons style of fighting.

Of course you can call any maneuver what ever you want. But in every activity we become involved in, our occupations, sports or hobbies, if you decide to participate it helps to learn the terminology adopted by those already involved, so that you can communicate with them effectively. That is particularly true while you are learning, or you will not understand so easily when people try to help. Making up your own terminology and names is fine for something you invented or has never been seen before, which is exactly what has happened in air combat in the past, which is why maneuvers are named after pilots, like the Immelmann, Lufbery, Thach weave and so on. The problem with inventing new names for maneuvers that have been around for a long time and already have names or associated terminology is just the confusion it causes. Most people try to learn and communicate with the existing established names, because trying to reinvent the wheel simply isn't worth the effort or confusion.

Hope that helps

Badboy

[RumbleB]

I wrote a long reply on why I think saying the trite one and only method to learning is good and it exceeded length so I'll put it here in a text file.
I'm not a fan of "there's only one way".. since i was on the forefront new young pokker players ripping up the textbooks and destroying 40 years of abc crap.

http://www.pastebin.ca/2351815


Be careful not to get offended by random spots of sarcasm meant not to insult but to be obtuse. also I'm a basterd with a complete disregard of social norms, english is my third language and ... also I'm crazy but often logically sound. or dont read this part.
Here's an essay on re-inventing the wheel (hehe, actually funnoily enough by telling people the most counterproductive way of learning to become a good stick in the fastest manner you're the one tryign to re-invent the wheel but I elaborate in detail in this text).

(I'm gonna make this my guide and direct new players to it and we'll see more funtime cuddlefest collision fightin)
http://www.pastebin.ca/2351815


If you're not doing this against good sticks you're not good (or ur good but not great at THIS MOVE i mean, im sure u can beat me ez at co-e 20k alt in some weird plane or something.. or maybe not, because I do weird toejam) and don't understand exactly what I've been talking about being ommitted about it.. The most important part people do not explain which I can understand because this is hard to explain and... actually the wheel has been improved on many damn times so I think that's an idiom I find amusing.

I've got a ton of films catching out good sticks with it by disguising it at other angles so I'm not sure you've come close to understandign the real fundamendals of it (I don't either, but I clearly throughh practicing it more know how to tweak disguise it which is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART). and if i dont catch em they're not gonna have a gross time killing me because I'm not murdering all my E if I can see danger in doing so. but no one writes about that either.. this is instinct toejam, that's why textbooking is dumb because it limimts you and makes you exploitable and you think you're doing things to perfection when you haven't even come close to the skill ceiling of it. As I said.. sample size.. I induced this so many times I think I've pulled it off and found the little tweaks that you might not have discovered.. at least if you make a statemenet like that when I'm sitting on a library full of it (even 2007 dated ones where i'd only been playing 2 years on and off) against vets + regarded as not good but great sticks. as I've said, it's something I do at least once a sortie..

I had this uploaded from the other day but if i could be bothered (this move is so standard and boring to me now that i'd rather make films of other stuff like drunken E management which I put up before..). still it bugs me that you say that when I have the proof to back it up and I find it  slightly arrogant for you to say that- assuming that you know it to perfection, but it's clear that you simply do not know how to do it against good sticks..  Never? work? The film I posted s the most rudmimentary flat one I could find as it was easiest to explain.  I did it against good players FREQUENTLY- and didn't save half of the films because it probably accounted for more kills than dead six shooting... so i think its standard

This is how i'd modify vs a good stick.  need I post films of everyone i pull it off so you can say they're not good? It's entirely possible. this isn't even about it.  I have way cleaner ones and youd probably not like to call the peeople done in em not good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLlhUQQG-vQ&list=PL77vz-H38Ob5nl-PVEm1FC6_Lq0vFztkz

I can upload more, u can dispute this is not that move.. then im gonna have to waste more time encoding films but they'[re boring to me because they're so standard. but it's a simple case of modifying angle.. the video I showed was the mos tmundane simple way to do it vs average/competent. I'll know whether it's a good stick approaching and I need to set it up and disguise it differently.

It's the same as in poker.. metagame. the stronger your opponent is the more deceit is applied (i play poker for a living)

This is so funny. it's like when istarted holdem online and dinosaurs had beeen playing for decades before I was born... I'd 4 table which was crazy until I was 12 tabling and 16 tabling.. playing thousands of hands per hour vs 35 hands per hour of a live veteran player... I'd played more hands aand seen twice as many spots while playing against others like me- mass hand while they were hunting whales who'd played a bit a game or two...  Who do you think started getting crushed by the new high volume players who took a different approach to playing? nonstandard betting lines, coining pretty much every new phrase while calculating betsizing to perfection.. when VETS thought they knew betsizinnnn but overshoving was apparantly not the optimal play.

Aces high wont keep a crowd. because it's  great skillgame poorly explained by old ways (woohooo 50 years ago theyh did this.. in real life.. because else they'd die). when there's a toejam wannabe multiplayer flight sim game getting 100x the crowd that doen't have a fraction of the time in development. why? because they're progressive and open their eyes to how to draw players in... it's simple, dont make everything seem so complex, add a dummy arcade mde for mouse users then they get curious about improving the eperience and get a stick.. 4 years and thre's been one Idea.. and a skin or two. I loathe stagnation with the assumnption that something is perfect when there is measure to do so. sorry but your comment that it doesn't work against good sticks suggests just such a thing...  regged in 2000 and you come out with that?


I want to  call wht is a horribly mistermed move a peekabooo or a dingleberry I will because barrel roll defense is just silly and this is a game, with reinvented ww2 flight combat. or whatever. if you think ur in ww2 flight combat you're almost as nuts as me. it's a computer skillgame and lets call it what it is. ., if I use a move to kill someone consisntetnly without them touching me, logically it's not a defensive move is it? I'm an MMA fighter I never once DEFENDED by knocking someone out. I check kicks. that's defence. but I don't check a kick to attack.  I check a kick not to  get a stiff leg. I defend a guard pass because it's really uncomfortable when someone accidentally or on purposeputs 200lbs of pressure into your damn balls trying to get to halfguard... but it's not gonna knock them out or sub them. it'sjust gonna keep my balls not squashed. so I defend. I defend subsmissions, and jitz there are more finishing moves than in aces high and not one of them is a defence. a sub is a sub and that's attacking with submissions. not defending. there's no defensive omaplata or twister thiis is so contradictory my head spins.

(p.s. don't worry I won't call it  a dingleberry... barrel roll defence it shall be. and what I do is something different then.. cause it's a move that has killed top sticks. also im joking, i always knew what an immelman was it's the one where you land on top of a pilot so he cant vulch with is acp.)

[Torquila]

Holy crap, you've got a lot of time on your hands to write that bro, we should hang out and catch up sometime instead! ;-)