Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bloom25 on October 17, 2000, 12:29:00 AM
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They sure do seem weak to me anymore. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I spend quite a bit of time tonight shooting planes with what I would normally consider enough to cause major damage. One sortie in particular I used up all of my ammo and got only 1 kill and 1 assist. Yet I probably had bullets in 5 planes or so. I'll attach a film here of that sortie. p51.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51.ahf) The film is long and I spend a lot of time trying to set up good passes on planes. A few in particular stand out: First of all the F4u at the beginning, I was able to down him, but sure did need a lot of ammo to do relatively minor damage. Next plane that stands out is just after the 1/2 way mark, a 109 that I manage to catch at the top of his zoom. I manage 2 quick and 1 long series of hits mainly on a wing. Back in 1.03 this would have easily chopped off 1/2 a wing. This 109 only lost a flap at best. Next I attack a b26. I definately hit him more than enough times to do some damage, yet there is nothing done that I can see. After that I end up avoiding passes and trying to save a countrymate. I did manage a hit on a 205 that saved him, but then a n1k blew me up with a single ping. On film you can only hear 2 or 3 hits at best and instant explosion. Seems to me that there is a HUGE disparity in damage done by 50s and N1k 20mm.
This is just one particular incident, there have been many others. I've almost given up the p51; it's basically useless against more than 1 vs 1 without a massive e-disparity and the element of surprise.
As a sort of test I did some offline shooting against the drones. I found that normally a HS 20mm with take the rudder (often the entire tail) off of the p51 with 1 to 3 pings. Never did it take more than 3 hits to a single area to do what I consider leathal damage. Many times a single ping from 500 yds was all that was needed. Repeating with a p51 I found that at a minimum 6 hits were needed to even damage most parts of the aircraft. Leathal damage usually took more than 20 hits to a single part of the airframe. (Rudder does seem very fragile though.)
Just for comparison with past tours, I have several films of b26s and b17s going down with less hits than I put into the 109. I'll just randomly link a few here: p51vb17.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb17.ahf) p51vb172.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb172.ahf) poorpass.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/poorpass.ahf)
There's a few more films there with p47s doing similar things. I've also noticed deflection shooting is MUCH harder than last version.
Before anyone takes this a big whine, let me say that I'm still having lots of fun playing AH. I do feel, however, that there are major new issues to be dealt with in the gunnery area. I'm sure that given HTC's past record the issues will be dealt with in a fair and timely manner.
My $.02 only. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Before anyone faults my connection, here is what it was at the time:
Tracing route to beta.hitechcreations.com [216.91.192.19]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms orstsw4-gw.ORST.EDU [uh no, static ip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)]
2 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms orstbrdr-gw.ORST.EDU [128.193.6.1]
3 60 ms 55 ms 3 ms corvallis-hub.nero.net [199.201.139.9]
4 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms ptld-core1-gw.nero.net [207.98.64.30]
5 13 ms 8 ms 7 ms 906.Hssi8-0-0.GW1.POR2.ALTER.NET [157.130.176.33
]
6 19 ms 15 ms 20 ms 121.ATM3-0.XR2.SEA4.ALTER.NET [146.188.200.190]
7 18 ms 19 ms 19 ms 192.at-2-0-0.TR2.POR3.ALTER.NET [152.63.105.50]
8 73 ms 73 ms 72 ms 130.at-5-1-0.TR2.DFW9.ALTER.NET [152.63.3.134]
9 79 ms 78 ms 77 ms 188.ATM6-0.XR2.DFW4.ALTER.NET [152.63.98.249]
10 75 ms 84 ms 86 ms 194.ATM9-0-0.GW1.DFW1.ALTER.NET [146.188.240.45]
11 78 ms 75 ms 76 ms savvis-dfw-gw.customer.ALTER.NET [157.130.128.54
]
12 101 ms 94 ms 94 ms applink-1.usdlls.savvis.net [216.90.2.66]
13 97 ms 109 ms 98 ms beta.hitechcreations.com [216.91.192.19]
Trace complete.
I can't figure a ping of no greater than 109ms being too bad.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I've had no problem killing with .50 caliber..
It is said that it needs umm.. 2 seconds of burst with .50 caliber to down a plane in average. (and I've heard this said by many of those allied aligned players in this AH board since the beta begin.. so its not just my hallucinating)
According to this, you'll need about 25 shots to down plane.
..and you will most likely have 6 .50 calibers.
Though, 2 seconds divided 6 doesn't work, because you'll most likely miss most of those shots.
Seems like it is historically accurate what you just told.
I don't believe this '2 seconds' case either means that it blows up the plane, but makes enough bad damage so enemy has to bail out (if alive..)
Though, N1K2 and Hispano guns are *veryvery* lethal compared to germans or russians.
Where bomber gets blown up by niki or spitfire with short burst, germans and russians leaves it still flying with alot damages or few.. I have tested this on few kamikaze rides (this includes Spitfire and 4x20mm 190 as well.. so amount of guns doesn't do well as excuse)
Even myself I've tested this..
I would vote for decreasing effect of those three differently named 20mm cannons (n1k2, hispano and that M2 cannon)
I don't like to have 1-2 hit kills anyway, I would most likely just have early war kites.
500 yards is also fairly long distance for non explosive bullet.. (those HS sorta guns and niki guns has amazing long range capability in AH though)
I did earlier post my testings with hispanos and other few guns, where I did state that HS gets lethal damage on a plane with maximum of 3 hits. (thats maximum, not minimum.. 1-2 hit kills happend fairly lot)
but.. who would believe me, I am just one who likes to kill all allied planes (yea right..)
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I have no ideas, I would believe they are weack, especially cause I fly the P47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But distance is probably an issue here. At 900y i put more than half my total amo in a Lancaster to only make him smoke an engine.
the other day in SEA MED, I hit a 205 pretty bad for 2-3 seconds, tracers hit left wing tips, went all the way to the right then back to the left and left again, but I was at 900y till 600y.
When I fly cannon planes like Niki (soooooo rare) I usually wait less than 200Y to open fire and 3-4 pings are enought to cause damages, but the difference being I'm very close.
So, that's just my imput, I have no oppinion yet on the subject.
Tip for Bloom: Fly the P47 for two weeks and then fly an another plane, I'm sure the P51 will feel great in turnfighting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 10-17-2000).]
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hi bloom25:
I have done a few trace route things as well, but have no idea how to read them. is smaller numbers better or worse. could you please axplain to a dope like myself how it works, or what is a better rate. if that makes sence.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Fishu, I don't buy that "2 seconds" argument at all. By the same token I've read that 2 seconds of fire from 8 .303s would be enough to down a German fighter. Considering that the M2 50 cal has almost 2 times the KE of the .303 round, that tells me that it should down a German fighter with less than 1 second concentrated fire. The 109 was easily the most fragile fighter in the ETO, the tail plane, O2, and engine were all EXTREMELY vulnerable to any type of fire. (Remember the 109E even required a braced tail and that more 109s were written off in landing accidents than were shot down during the BOB.) I've seen numerous gun camera films showing a 109 going into flames with little more than a quick burst across it.
For the sake of argument lets assume you are correct and that 2 seconds of continuous, concentrated fire is needed to bring down a fighter. Assume a low ROF for the M2 of, 750 Rounds per minute. That is equal to 4500 rounds per minute from all 6 guns, or 75 rounds per second. Are you saying that a 109 could take up to 150 concentrated rounds to a single area before damage would occur??? (I've read that the Germans considered the 50 cal to be in the same class as cannons.) Now please remember that the 50 cal bullets fired by American fighters were not simple lead shells. They were usually mainly API rounds. Even so the rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 870m/s and a weight of 48.5 grams. I calculate KE at the muzzle to be 1/2*.0485kg*870^2. (Formula for KE for non-relativistic speeds is .5MV^2.) I get 18354.8 Joules per round. Now consider a ROF of 75 rps, giving a total E of 2.75322*10^6 J delivered in 2 seconds as you have stated to be necessary to kill a fighter on average.
Now consider the HS MarkII. Looking at various sources I get a projectile weight of 130g at 880m/s. There are 4 cannons on the F4u-1c (wow, imagine that) For the sake of argument, lets consider the HS rounds to be AP. (Not a bad assumption given the ability of the HS MkII to kill tanks.) By the same calculations I get .5*.13*880^2 Joules per round or 50336 J per round. The HS MkII has a stated ROF of 600 RPM or 10 rps per gun, equal to 80 rounds in a 2 second period. By the same calculation as above this is 4.02688*10^6 J in 2 seconds. Again I will assume all rounds hit. The KE delivered by the HS 20mm AP is 1.46261 times the KE delivered by the 50 cal. Now here's the kicker; if the 50 cal takes 2 seconds to down a fighter, than the HS AP should take 1.36742 seconds of fire to deliver the same KE to a target. (2/1.46261 seconds)
Now here's the interesting part. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) By your own post you claim (I do to) that 3 rounds of HS delivers lethal damage to the p51 drones. Extrapolating from the ROF of 40 rps from all 4 HS gives a total firing time of ONLY .075 seconds of fire needed to hit the target to cause lethal damage. Since the combined fire of 6 50 calibers takes 2 seconds, this leads to the conclusion that the HS in AH is 26.6666 times more lethal than the 50 cal. (2/0.75) You are in effect saying that every round of HS is equal to 26 2/3 rounds of M2 50 caliber. Even if the HS was HE, do you think each round should deliver some 27 times the energy of a 50 caliber round? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I'd say a more realistic value would be on the order of up to 8 rounds of 50 cal API for each round of HS 20mm HE. Since the HS can deliver a lethal amount of damage in .075 seconds by your own admission (I agree), would it be incorrect to assume that .075*8=.6 seconds of 50 caliber fire should deliver the same amount of energy? Why is there a 3.33 difference between this and 2 seconds as you claim necessary?
At the least, one must conclude that something is not right with the 50 cal as it is modelled right now. (I'm not even taking into account the fact that a 50 cal bullet is MUCH superior ballistically speaking to a 20mm HS and thus easier to hit with.)
Please do your own calculations if you doubt me. (I would be most appreciative if Pyro would do the same. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Fishu, I don't mean to pick on you in particular, you just hit a nerve here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Whiner!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Ram, only curious, that's all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Although I like flying the La5, I would like to have the "Cadillac of the Sky" guns returned to their original hitting power.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Bloom25,
Krhm... ".50 caliber" not ".50 calibers".
that does clearly mean one .50 caliber, not 4, 6 or 8.
and good.. if that means one .50 caliber can down plane with 2 seconds of burst and 8x.303 does the same.. that means .50 caliber is ok.
Also, didn't you still notice that when I mentioned 25 hits?
All this scientific whining just because you didn't read it as one or 'about 25 hits' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't know how many times I've seen this "one .50 caliber / 2 seconds" arqument said by allied aligned players during this boards history... so don't look at me if that isn't correct..
Though, to me that 20-25 hits seems correct..
You should be very close to enemy to get hits in one spot or some luck.. (bullet dispersion is punishing .50 caliber very hard in AH.. as well as 7mm calibers)
So.. with the joy of 6 .50 calibers, you still don't achieve that 'less than second' kill rate, because you surely won't hit all those bullets in the target.. (if you're shooting from range)
I like LW cannons as best balanced of the cannons, if talks for overall gameplay, and worst balanced guns are Hispano and its US cousins. (difference is just so huge that bigger shell doesn't go through as explonation for this)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 10-17-2000).]
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50cal is the most frustrating gun in ah
if you have a good connection and so does the other guy then the 50cal will most likely do a good job with a reasonable amount of ammo.
but if you dont or they dont then be ready to empty a thousand rounds into them to get them damaged or destroyed in anything other than a no deflection 2 second 300 yard 6 shot
distance is also an issue with all the guns...
the further away you are the more ammo it takes to damage the enemy plane. and past 500 yards it takes a crapload of ammo even with a good connection.
the p47 gives me results that vary from laughably unlethal to very good killing power depending on range, connection and deflection.
just my observation as I fly mostly 50cal armed planes.
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P47-M-Frenchy .... 8 Hispano 20mm... yeaaaaaar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Citabrias better train up his gunnery then too... I've only seen him flying F4u C while looking for an easy prey
If you wan't frustrating gun, how about trying those 7mm caliber machineguns..
(perhaps closer to 8mm..)
Those doesn't do much beyond 500 yards, with low velocity and alot of bullet drop (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So far I've had no problems even with 13mm guns, which are known to be weaker than .50 caliber.
I don't know whats up with these .50 caliber people, they're always complaining while I and few others could still do alot kills with those per sortie. (yes, I do know few)
IMHO, .50 caliber is perfect now, as well as MG151/20 and ShVAK, but if something breaks the balance, it is Hispano and its cousins.
Perhaps HS and its cousin M2 cannon is the reason why people who uses .50 caliber, are complaining..
Downgrading HS and M2 cannon wouldn't be for bad, I would consider it as great gameplay improvement to survive through max. 3 hits that necessarily didn't even land nearly in the same area of the plane.
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All I ever fight with are the 50's....something is different.
I always flew with a convergence of 225-250-275. Now I'm all over the place trying to get the results of pre-1.04.
I suspect that what is happening is we just are not hitting what we're shooting at...My gunnery is a joke since 1.04. It used to never fall below .10 and more often was around .14 to .16 range. Now it's .06 and worse.
I'm lost as to what to do about it other than to keep on keepin on until I figure it out.
I'm open to suggestions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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Originally posted by Ice:
I'm open to suggestions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
Get nice and close, 300 yards or less, things tend to disenegate at the yardage.
Also noticed that its almost impossible to get 600 yard shots with cannons anymore without inflicting serious damage...threw 100 rounds into a B26 with CHOG and it flew away happily (So much for the CHOG gun conspiracy! LOL)
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I saw something else while watchin films. Something thats pretty freaky.
Use an external view while watching films of me and camo. Watch my shots from outside the pony with rear quarter angle.
You'll see that the six individual tracer streams from the six guns go on radically diffrent flight paths.
Seems that g loading is effecting all six guns diffrently; and those shots; at 275 yards; with convergence SET at 275 yards made for a bullet cone that was no cone at all. It was useless scattered fire; no cohesion; no 'convergence' no nothin but a pitiful scattered spray.
I'm becoming convinced that g loading is effecting each gun differently.. why else would gun convergence become no convergence at all when the plane has even slight g loads?
Hang
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Had an M3 survive 4 passes before I finally got him with 6 .50s. I was hitting him well on each pass.
Had a b26 take about 30 hits to a wing from my .50s and keep flying. I broke off when my wing came off after 2 pings from the 26. Someone else came in and fired a quick burst and killed the b26. I got an assist.
6 .50s are definately a departure from 4 hispanos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Ice:
My gunnery is a joke since 1.04. It used to never fall below .10 and more often was around .14 to .16 range. Now it's .06 and worse.
Ice
Yesterday I have posted a message at MOL list reporting the same problem!
My gunnery which was already mediocre before got even worse since 1.04:
TOUR Hit %
5 0.0515
6 0.0587
7 0.0554
8 0.0408
9 0.0309
Originally posted by Ice:
I suspect that what is happening is we just are not hitting what we're shooting at...
Ice
That's exactly what I've noticed and your frustration is mine. Do u use vsync off? Sometimes I wonder if this now makes more difference now ...
BTW, I usually fly CHOG and I only shoot at 300 or less and my conv is set to 300.
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Hangtime, at first I thought you had lost yer marbles till I went & viewed films myself. I saw the same thing! Guns with a g load does seem to be altering each gun differently. Either that or the aspect angle of my view was foolin' me.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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I've been flying the 51 lately and it seems that in 1.04 it became easier to hit with .50s and harder to hit with Mausers. Most of my kills in 51 are jumps or kills from d.400 or so, its very easy to hit a manouvering target at far ranges with .50s, this is the trick.
I have had no problems with .50s, only with snapshot ability which is expected.
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Heya Rip...
Since the first day of Beta, I never pulled the trigger unless inside of 300...I have not changed my MO in the slightest since 1.04 yet I cant hit what I used to be able to hit.
Nath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I checked your numbers in the 51...come talk to me after you've got some experience in this ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fradim....
Never played with vsync...don't even know what it does (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've also notice that lined up on a bandits six, the trajectory of the rounds in flight behave differently....I'm lost. I will figure out how to kill again in my favorite ride!
Ice
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I don't play for score but perhaps you would like to take a gander at the dueling ladder.
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The icons disappearing below the nose, has given a big advantage to the 50,s, already. There flatter trajectory allows you to keep the con in site while firing.
On the film thing. It is vary easy to make a film with the drones now. I have been flying N1K2 since beta. I've never seen a one or two ping kill. Please make a film of this.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Fishu, I normalized the results for 6 guns for the 50s and 4 guns for the 20mm HS. Even if 25 rounds would do the job, that's only 1/3 second of fire from all 6 guns. IMO in 1.03 it seemed like it took about 1 second of good hits to down a fighter and about 2 seconds to down a bomber. Now, well, up to about 3 seconds or more at 300 yds.
I think that maybe this is realistic, but if it is the HS is certainly WAY to leathal by the same argument as I originally posted. (Average destrucive effect of 26.66 rounds of 50 cal in AH by my calculations.) No matter what, something has changed with the .50s that make it much harder to get kills compared to 1.03. I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's also become MUCH harder to land deflection shots now, only compounding the damage reduction.
I sure wish Pyro would comment on this.
Hangtime, I looked at that too, strange isn't it. The .50s should be the easiest weapon to get hits with deflection shooting, this is certainly not the case.
Fishu I think my reply was probably a little harsh, it wasn't meant to be. I was only trying to back up my original statements. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All I'm really wondering is why the .50s seem so far out of balance with the rest of the guns right now.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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LOL, where did this 1 50 caliber come from. What fighter can fire 1 50 cal? If that was the case, yes, 2 seconds would be about right. Divide that by 6 and you get 1/3 second. Can you get kills with 1/3 second of 50 cal fire? I don't think I've managed that.
Perhaps a film of you downing a fighter would be a good thing to prove your arguement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Go fly a 202 then whine about your Brownings!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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last night
6gun pony
vehicle hanger at V35
6 passes, dumping 1400+ rounds into it
hanger still standing
I returned to V35 with a JU88 and dropped the hanger with 1 500kg egg.
Before I was out of the arenas (but still in 1.04p4) for a few days I could down the VH at a V base with 1 good gun pass with a 6gun pony.
Something has happened to the .50s. This seems likely as alot of people have noticed a serious drop in thier hitting power (which has always been weak I believe).
I noticed wind is back on in the arena. Could it be stripping away more power from the guns than it should? Cannon kites wouldna notice that much if they're scoring hit, they have the explosive payload in the shells and can still get the kills with relatively little ammo spent.
Sure hope this is fixed before the ships appear in 1.05. Ain't no way the .50s we have now will pop the boilers on any ships.
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My accuracy has dropped in half. Trying to find ways to improve it.
I was all proud of myself cause I actually managed to hit someone last night with some good shots that were not dead 6. Then I noticed it had taken me 250 rounds of 20mm to bring down a p51.
I really enjoyed the game more befor.
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Nothing's changed. If we were to make a change to something like this, it would have been documented.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I believe you Pyro, I'm sure you would have told us if you had made changes. That said, something has happened, I've never had to shoot this many rounds into a plane to damage it. I've heard the same thing from many other people now. Could it be that the wind has somehow effected the mg bullets? All the cannon seem uneffected.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I have no explanation for the odd diffusion of the bullet stream. Watched those films about 20 times now.. sure as hell LOOKS like they are not even CLOSE to a convergence pattern.. how could they be so drasticly effected by 'G'? Should they be? Are they in fact doing what would be expected of them in those conditions?
(http://207.201.172.230/DL's/ahss26.jpg)
Cockpit shot; same instant. No 'g's!
(http://207.201.172.230/DL's/ahss29.jpg)
Very very strange. I know Pyro has not changed anything on gunnery.. and it's certain that the new 'e' model and relative speeds have had some effect, explainable and rational, sure. But it's ALSO true that initailly at least; the wind had an effect.. that wasn't an intentional gunnery change either.
So; what in hell is causing that insane diffusion when just a few g's are on the plane? At no time when I was firing in those films was I above 3 g's. And yet I see 6 divergent; radicly diffrent tracer paths when viewed from outside the plane.
I can't explain it... I have no clue.
I MUST be nuts!! Gotta be some quirk to the film I guess.
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Originally posted by bloom25:
LOL, where did this 1 50 caliber come from. What fighter can fire 1 50 cal? If that was the case, yes, 2 seconds would be about right. Divide that by 6 and you get 1/3 second. Can you get kills with 1/3 second of 50 cal fire? I don't think I've managed that.
Perhaps a film of you downing a fighter would be a good thing to prove your arguement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That 2 seconds expects that YOU WILL HIT
With 6*.50cal, you can't be sure you hit *every* bullet.
If you realise that 2 seconds of burst with one .50 caliber is about 20-23 shots / hits.
and I doubt you have 100% gunnery.. so your 6x.50cal or 1x.50cal doesn't do it in that 2 seconds or under 1/3 second...
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Dear hangtime..
There is things like dispersion on the bullets and movement of your head when you maneuver.. (and sight moves there too)
and this dispersion is quite bad for guns...
I don't know how anyone could hit one spot of a plane from beyond 200 yards, when even M3 halftrack can't hit within 5 feets area from 70 yards...
I had good test on this when I was covering field for troops in an halftrack and strafed B-26 so that I tried to kill its pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
70 yards and shots were from left engine to the right engine when I aimed the cockpit..
(gun jumps up/down, but more shots seemed more to jump left/right than up/down)
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Dear Fishu.
I'm 173 freakin yards off his nose and fillin the air with lead right in front of him. Watch tracer angles. look at the lead; both inside the plane; outside the plane. The range continued to close. How can that shot miss? He's driving virtually untouched thru a cloud of lead. Look at the g meter. Run the film.
Somethin's wrong with these guns!
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Dear Fishu.
I'm 173 freakin yards off his nose and fillin the air with lead right in front of him. Watch tracer angles. look at the lead; both inside the plane; outside the plane. The range continued to close. How can that shot miss? He's driving virtually untouched thru a cloud of lead. Look at the g meter. Run the film.
Somethin's wrong with these guns!
Hang
That isn't just problem of .50 calibers..
also, I really don't see everything from those screenshots..
I see first screenshot just from one angle and another from cockpit, but to me it looks like undershot
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CavemanJ:
Fromw which angle did you attack vehicle hangar?
Attack from thbe long side (meaning target "stretches out" in front of you) and yo'll find that for some reason, LOTS of them will go through the roof and harmlessly hit the ground below it.
(http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/wrong.jpg)
Attack from "long" side.
Attack from an angle or from short side, and more will hit.
(http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/better.jpg)
Better, but not perfect
I've used all 30's and most 20's on a vh, attacking from the wrong angle once. That's how I found out. The best way is to attack it at a 45 degree angle at at least a 20 degree dive
(http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/angle.jpg)
Almost all rounds will hit.
It's a bug that has existed for some time. Not an big deal if ya know about it but if you don't it can be a major bugger.
Posting pics just in case my English cannot convey what I am trying to say (oooh rhyme!)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Hangtime, Bloom, all concerned.....
Guys i do know what you mean be the gunnery seeming as if it underwent a change. after the last version I needed a little adjustment to get back with the program. However, I cannot detect a change in the lethality of the M2 50 cal. To me they are everything I want or need them to be. I achieve great results in tracking, deflection and even SNAPSHOTS. If I do my part and ge the the rounds on target, they shred the target. Just last night in the med league fun frame I had a 90 degree off deflection shot on a 109 from the P-47 i was flying, the 109 was destroyed. The driver was CAMO, maebe he will come forward and witness to this as I didnt have film of it. However I do have a film that will back up what I am saying.
I will be glad to email the film in zipped form to anyone who wants it.
ammo
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OK, OK, Fishu, I give up. You obviously possess a knowlege of AH far beyond that of any mortal being. I don't see that you have played this tour under 4 of the names that I know you used to use. Have you played AH online since patch 5 came out? If so, please show us a film from a previous tour and one from this tour so we can compare bullet trajectories and damage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hangtime, I see what you are talking about. My films show the same thing. Maybe this IS the reason for what I'm describing. The guns no longer seem to converge at the set point, thus causing less damage with no apparent reduction in the number of strikes when I do get hits. Pulling any g's at all only compounds the problem, the bullets just scatter all over the place. This also may be the reason why snapshots have less effect now.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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chk film
ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/film108_gunnery.ahf (http://ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/film108_gunnery.ahf)
and you'll see how 'weak' they are
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Originally posted by bloom25:
OK, OK, Fishu, I give up. You obviously possess a knowlege of AH far beyond that of any mortal being. I don't see that you have played this tour under 4 of the names that I know you used to use. Have you played AH online since patch 5 came out? If so, please show us a film from a previous tour and one from this tour so we can compare bullet trajectories and damage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yuups.. not a single problem to hit.. well, maybe with 30mm which needs modern day fighters aim tracking system.
and .50 caliber is actually pretty punchy too, does not have same power from behind as it has from above, but it sure kills with realistic feeling. (as it wasn't any miracle machinegun)
and hispanos still rocking the tanks like no tomorrow while other sort of guns just tickles them as the best result.
I've been just quiet lately (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maybe the damage is ok, but there is certainly something wrong with the dispersion. I don't have any trouble hitting with the 50s either, in fact I think there is nothing easier to score hits with. My problem is that it takes mass quanities of ammo to do damage compared to previous versions. My guess is that it may have something to do with this dispersion issue...
Edit: Hey, look at this, judging by your second post it looks you are saying the same thing, "(bullet dispersion is punishing .50 caliber very hard in AH.. as well as 7mm calibers)." Totally agree with you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Santa I'm aware of that problem, but from my expierence it's only been A bases that have that problem.
Anywho, most of those 6 passes were made at about a 45degree angle, walking the round down the side of the hanger.
ammo, was wind on in the SEA Med for the med league? I was in there for a bit, but dinnae remember encountering any wind layers while climbing in my spit. Mayhap the wind is screwing with the gunnery again, but only really noticable on the .50s since the cannon still have thier explosive damage.
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Originally posted by bloom25:
Edit: Hey, look at this, judging by your second post it looks you are saying the same thing, "(bullet dispersion is punishing .50 caliber very hard in AH.. as well as 7mm calibers)." Totally agree with you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I've been saying that for a long time since 1.04...
I don't know of cannons because I haven't been testing those much for dispersion nor would I care where I hit with those... (ive flown more with those HS & M2 planes lately..)
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It's not just the fighters either, I was up a little bit in an m16 and those 50cal are now like a shotgun. They don't converge at all. Try shooting at a hill near you, they go all over the place.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Originally posted by bloom25:
It's not just the fighters either, I was up a little bit in an m16 and those 50cal are now like a shotgun. They don't converge at all. Try shooting at a hill near you, they go all over the place.
Try shooting a tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've been doing that with few M16s offline, to test lethality of .50 against tanks..
Though, you must also notice with M16 that those guns are quite widely spread on the truck..
but I can say those hits were all over if i went bit further than 100 yards.
Oh.. by the way, I managed to rip tracks off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Stop whining, you allied dweebs.
I order you to use the mg's on the 109s for a while.
Then use the dumb laser beams.
Then whine, if you dare.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I flew a 109... for exactly 50 kills. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lethal as hell.. expecially w/ gondolas. Nice having mixed aramanets and split triggers. I hung the Gondolas, and set cannon for 250 convergence, and moved the gun pipper up a bit.
I found I could use the MG's at about 350-450 yards; get the other guys 'attention' so to speak, then as he tried to duck out as I closed; tag him with the kannonen at 250.
I found the 109's MG's were not very lethal... but suprised my self by getting several kills 'sniping' with 'em at about 400 yards.
Lucky hits; I guess. I agree Santa.. those little pop guns on the 109 have very limited effectiveness.. kinda like the 303's on the Spit. Which is just FINE by me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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I've convinced myself all of the gunnery woes that others have reported since 1.04 came out have been due to increased dispersion. Since cannons do not really need to all strike the same point as the mgs, they don't seem as affected. I REALLY feel sorry for those who fly 109s, c205, c202, spit, and use the rifle caliber mgs, they would be basically BB guns. I think Pyro is right, damage hasn't changed one bit, but something sure has increased dispersion.
This may actually be more true to life than it used to be (cannons should be effected more IMO due to their inferior muzzle velocity). I'd like to hear what Pyro thinks of this dispersion theory. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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bloom, could be ..but dont know. I really havent had a problem with the 50's. Ive flown the pony alot lately and am completely satisfied with the lethality. I do my part and parts fall off the enemy. (that didnt sound right). I set my convergence at 400 yds with both the pony and the jug and both are good for me.
I aint disclaiming what you have said as i tend to listen to you., I just don't see it the way you do I guess.
BTW--- the hispano 20 MM has darn near the same Muzzel velocity as the 50 BMG. both are right at 2900 FPS out the barrel. Because of the added weight and superior Ballistic coefficient of the 20mm projectile it out performs the 50 cal in all aspects..trajectory, external and terminal performance.. down range energy..etc
ammo
edited cuz I cant type (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Try shooting a tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've been doing that with few M16s offline, to test lethality of .50 against tanks..
Though, you must also notice with M16 that those guns are quite widely spread on the truck..
but I can say those hits were all over if i went bit further than 100 yards.
Oh.. by the way, I managed to rip tracks off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fishu, the M-16's ma duces are about 4-5 feet apart. The P-51,P-47, and F4U's ma duces are around 15 feet apart.
Keep in mind the M-16 weighs 9 tons. Weight related stability should be better on the M-16 because of the dampning effect.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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would setting for pattern hamonization or point harmonization be making a difference here?
With the pony I like, from outboard to inboard, 400/375/350, opening fire at 375.
Guess the dispersion would be really screwing me up when shooting at other kites.
But it dinnae explain the problems with the VH the other night
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Fishu, the M-16's ma duces are about 4-5 feet apart. The P-51,P-47, and F4U's ma duces are around 15 feet apart.
Keep in mind the M-16 weighs 9 tons. Weight related stability should be better on the M-16 because of the dampning effect.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well, I don't really know anything how much dispersion those guns have.. but they have alot of it.
Even M16 and M3..
But from convergence distance, around it by 100 yards (so that there wouldn't be speed issue that could make convergence meet other distance than when bullets shot at the moving plane from convergence distance.. buah.. complicated.. try figure this out) I could see fairly alot dispersion with the guns.
but I don't know about that.. but one thing is sure that if I would aim the wing even with nose mounted guns, I would see lead hit all around the wing and maybe even the fuselage.. (plus misses (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I've become more familiar with dispersion in 109s, when using machineguns or cannons, I've seen lead hit all around the plane from less than 200 yards when aim has crossed through the center of the plane..
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(I meant I don't think it's quite right, such as the MG34, doesn't disperse enough)
- Jig
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Another thing about MG's in my experience...
Real easy to wound a pilot by shooting MG's stead of cannon.. I actually think the chance of a pilot wound are unusually high when using MG's in AH....
SKurj
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Dispersion? Did somebody mention dispersion? Ogre produced a gunnery study concerning dispersion and posted the results here: http://www.cris.com/~reaper/gunnery/gunnery.html (http://www.cris.com/~reaper/gunnery/gunnery.html)
It's interesting stuff. Enjoy.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by SKurj:
Another thing about MG's in my experience...
Real easy to wound a pilot by shooting MG's stead of cannon.. I actually think the chance of a pilot wound are unusually high when using MG's in AH....
SKurj
lol, I second this..
Specially P-38 gets easily pilot wounded or killed by PZ-IVhs 7.92mm.
It is second or first damage if p38 gets downed by panzers machinegun.
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That's great stuff. Looking at those pictures of 50 caliber bullet impact locations reminded me of something I did the other day. I was trying to calculate the various energies an electron emits in order to calculate the wavelength of the photons emitted in a 2-D quantum well when they jump from a higher energy state to a lower energy state. (A 2-D quantum well is the structure used in creating laser diodes used in devices like CD players, keychain laser pointers, etc.) In solving this problem you have to use Schrodinger's Wave equations (basically a probabilty equation that tells you where the electron most likely is located). In one possible case the Schrodinger equation yields a probability plot that looks almost identical to the M2 50 caliber plot. In fact the sine function is involved in the solution to both, probably the reason for the similarity. LOL, I'm probably boring 1/2 of you to death about now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'd recommend looking at that site, interesting how the M2 has much less dispersion than the HS or to a lesser extend the MG151. I'll try seeing if I can get a similar plot to Ogre's in Matlab and then maybe figure out whether something is wrong or right. It will probably take me a long time to find some time to do this. Right now I'd have to say that looking at the data at hand I now think that the 50 cal is pretty much spot on. The HS does seem to accurate to me though. Looking at those dispersion plots the HS looks like a shotgun blast at long range.
Great link! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Originally posted by bloom25:
That's great stuff. Looking at those pictures of 50 caliber bullet impact locations reminded me of something I did the other day. I was trying to calculate the various energies an electron emits in order to calculate the wavelength of the photons emitted in a 2-D quantum well when they jump from a higher energy state to a lower energy state. (A 2-D quantum well is the structure used in creating laser diodes used in devices like CD players, keychain laser pointers, etc.) In solving this problem you have to use Schrodinger's Wave equations (basically a probabilty equation that tells you where the electron most likely is located). In one possible case the Schrodinger equation yields a probability plot that looks almost identical to the M2 50 caliber plot. In fact the sine function is involved in the solution to both, probably the reason for the similarity. LOL, I'm probably boring 1/2 of you to death about now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'd recommend looking at that site, interesting how the M2 has much less dispersion than the HS or to a lesser extend the MG151. I'll try seeing if I can get a similar plot to Ogre's in Matlab and then maybe figure out whether something is wrong or right. It will probably take me a long time to find some time to do this. Right now I'd have to say that looking at the data at hand I now think that the 50 cal is pretty much spot on. The HS does seem to accurate to me though. Looking at those dispersion plots the HS looks like a shotgun blast at long range.
Great link! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
homer need beer...
- Jig
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LOL.. The obvious Solution... drink a rack of Bud's and close to point blank range.
Squeeze trigger. <burrrrp> *hic*
Hartmann.. American Style.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL.. The obvious Solution... drink a rack of Bud's and close to point blank range.
Squeeze trigger. <burrrrp> *hic*
Hartmann.. American Style.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
If I had to drink a rack of buds, I would just open the cockpit and his him with a barf blast...much more effective
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/puke.gif)
- Jig
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Hey, Its the Grayclif! Coming to you live from the year 2000! I'm 18 again!
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you really looking to get banned arent you? how many old theads have you brought up now?
semp
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IN
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Wow, you needed to dredge up a 13 year old thread to spam? Just wow. Prime candidate for
the ignore list. Probably should have done it after the first couple look-at-me threads.
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Nothing's changed. If we were to make a change to something like this, it would have been documented.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
:airplane: I am sure you are sincere in your statement, but I to have noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the .50. A couple of my squad mates, who always flew the P-51 and have good K/D scores, have moved on to other aircraft because they are not getting the kills they did. Not sure what is wrong, but was 350 yds behind F4U two nights ago and sparkles all over the aircraft, he did not show any damage what soever!
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Hey, Its the Grayclif! Coming to you live from the year 2000! I'm 18 again!
WTF? :huh
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:airplane: I am sure you are sincere in your statement I am sure you are sincere in your statement, but I to have noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the .50.
Earl... this statement is 13 years old...
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A 13 yr old thread bumped by a 13 yr old mind.
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Lol - I had more hair and a 32" waist when I originally posted in this thread.
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Really Grayclif? ,,,really? I hope you get pnged for being stupid :aok
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+1 to watching the ban hammer swing. :cheers:
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He's out there.. He's listening..
(http://static.tumblr.com/o3fcshy/9Bxlohw2d/luigi_with_hammer.png)
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IN....... Squared.
ugh
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The .50cal is underpowered you say?...
(http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/w163-m-class/249110d1247623245-ml-spare-wheel-carrier-holy_thread_resurrection_batman.jpg)
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:airplane: I am sure you are sincere in your statement, but I to have noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the .50. A couple of my squad mates, who always flew the P-51 and have good K/D scores, have moved on to other aircraft because they are not getting the kills they did. Not sure what is wrong, but was 350 yds behind F4U two nights ago and sparkles all over the aircraft, he did not show any damage what soever!
It's not the .50 cals that are the problem.
ack-ack
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19243066.jpg)
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:rofl :rofl :banana: IN :banana:
:cheers: Oz
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QFT............ for the funking third time.
:rofl :rofl :banana: IN :banana:
:cheers: Oz