Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on March 06, 2008, 01:03:02 PM
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj311/therealJBA/smallgun.jpg)
can conceal this puppy anywhere.
I was going to say something about the crack of ones arse but decided against it. oooooppps guess I said it anyhow.
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj311/therealJBA/smallgun.jpg)
can conceal this puppy anywhere.
I was going to say something about the crack of ones arse but decided against it. oooooppps guess I said it anyhow.
Not in mine...I have a tattoo on my arse, it says "Exit Only--Yield to oncoming traffic"
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it was on the news, the homeland security person they interviewed almost peed his pants calling it "the new box cutter", "a terriorsts weapon" and HS is trying to keep them out of the country because the gun can "kill".
It cannot be imported because it is too small to meet some fed guide lines.
The cal is 2.3MM.
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Would it be wrong to mention that some of you guys probably feel right at home holding a tiny gun in your hand?
OK, then I won't.
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It is probably as effective as a .38 is to King-Kong...
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I own a revolver about twice that size that shoots 22 shorts and was made around the turn of the 20th century.. it has a folding trigger and is a 5 shot.
lazs
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So what happened to carbon fiber projectile launchers that used carbon fiber sabbot darts with electrical fired sold propellant bases? I thought those could be broken down and the parts not recognised in your carry on along with the batteries installed in your camera or game boy?
Wasent a prototype produced by a german firm and congress lost its mind over that some years back?
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It is probably as effective as a .38 is to King-Kong...
A bullet that is small, traveling 300 mph, would do damage to internal organs, no doubt. You'd bleed to death slowly so you *would* have time to shove that gun up their arse before you died or went to the hospital. :D
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I own a revolver about twice that size that shoots 22 shorts and was made around the turn of the 20th century.. it has a folding trigger and is a 5 shot.
lazs
Only slightly more effective tham my Berreta .25 nine shot semi with flip up barrel. :D
I carried it on my mountain bike back when I used to ride alot. In case of dog attack.
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It is probably as effective as a .38 is to King-Kong...
huh? :(
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The world's smallest gun looks about as effective as the world's smallest knife.
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Seriously now, you're walking home through the park and some homey comes up is sticks THAT in your face, what are you gonna do?
Sure I guess once you get up from the ground after laughing so hard you may give him a couple of dollars for the entertainment value...
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If you get attacked by a small bird it may help you.
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it was on the news, the homeland security person they interviewed almost peed his pants calling it "the new box cutter", "a terriorsts weapon" and HS is trying to keep them out of the country because the gun can "kill".
It cannot be imported because it is too small to meet some fed guide lines.
The cal is 2.3MM.
I dont think it can kill me. But if it shot me, DAMN that would be annoying.
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Not in mine...I have a tattoo on my arse, it says "Exit Only--Yield to oncoming traffic"
Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?
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Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?
I'm more concerned about the vehicles exiting his butt. Adds a whole new meaning to skidmarks in the undies.
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj311/therealJBA/smallgun.jpg)
can conceal this puppy anywhere.
I was going to say something about the crack of ones arse but decided against it. oooooppps guess I said it anyhow.
A much more practical solution is Ruger's brand new LCP, which just started reaching dealer shelves this week. It is the first handgun in history to ship with a trigger lock that is both bigger and heavier than the entire gun itself, as you can see in this photo:
(http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/DSC03252.jpg)
It makes for a very small, but effective package. Unloaded, it only weighs 9 oz:
(http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/DSC03249.jpg)
Compare it here to a small 5 shot Smith and Wesson snubnose .38 in size:
(http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/DSC03268.jpg)
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj311/therealJBA/smallgun.jpg)
can conceal this puppy anywhere.
I was going to say something about the crack of ones arse but decided against it. oooooppps guess I said it anyhow.
Freeze! or I'll shot! It probly won't kill or wound you, probly won't even sting but it'll be slightly unplesant. Bet that thing can't even shoot through plastic.
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A much more practical solution is Ruger's brand new LCP, which just started reaching dealer shelves this week. It is the first handgun in history to ship with a trigger lock that is both bigger and heavier than the entire gun itself, as you can see in this photo:
It makes for a very small, but effective package. Unloaded, it only weighs 9 oz:
Compare it here to a small 5 shot Smith and Wesson snubnose .38 in size:
Damn thats small. In the summer here I carry a little S&W 360PD for concealed carry. I question the reliability of that little .380. It kind of reminds me of a Kel-tec, it looks a lot like one.
I looked it up while I was writing this, 330$'s thats not to bad for a little pocket pistol. I watched the video, they sold me. It seems as if reliability is sound. I am going to pick one up. Like the video said, not to replace my 360PD or my Sig 229 9mm I carry the rest of the year, but as my "go to the store and walk the dog" pistol. Thanks for the heads up 220. :aok
http://www.ruger.com/LCP/Video.html
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sig.. I have a scandium 340 pd like the 38 special you show next to the little ruger.. mine weighs 12 oz and is smaller than the gun you show since I have wood undercover grips on it.
the main difference between the ruger and it is that mine has 3 times the power of the ruger. with 125 grain federal hollow points it is a proven manstopper while the .380 has been proven to be lacking in power. the revolver is reliable with all ammo and the drill for a dud round is.... pull the trigger again. It has a shrouded hammer and can even be fired from inside of a pocket.
the drill for making it ready to fire and fire is... pull the trigger (squeeze for you purists). I can hit man sized targets at 50 yards with the PD but...
It is a whole new world of recoil. after it saves your life your hand will sting for a few days.
lazs
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sig.. I have a scandium 340 pd like the 38 special you show next to the little ruger.. mine weighs 12 oz and is smaller than the gun you show since I have wood undercover grips on it.
the main difference between the ruger and it is that mine has 3 times the power of the ruger. with 125 grain federal hollow points it is a proven manstopper while the .380 has been proven to be lacking in power. the revolver is reliable with all ammo and the drill for a dud round is.... pull the trigger again. It has a shrouded hammer and can even be fired from inside of a pocket.
the drill for making it ready to fire and fire is... pull the trigger (squeeze for you purists). I can hit man sized targets at 50 yards with the PD but...
It is a whole new world of recoil. after it saves your life your hand will sting for a few days.
lazs
I have never had a problem with the small sub rounds like .380 and pocket pistols are just to stop a threat. Even so, seven rounds of .380 going in the bad guys direction is going to get results. Most likely the bad guy, if not hit is going to turn tail and run. If he is hit, while he might not roll over dead right there on the spot, he will be leaving the area and is in a heap of trouble as those light little rounds have a habit of playing pinball with your insides.
For me the idea is not to kill the bad guy, it is to simply survive the situation. I could care less if the bad guy runs off into the night, falls over dead, or dies three days later from internal bleeding. As long as I survive and get to go home to my family I am happy with the end result.
I keep 38 +P rounds in my 360. I can carry .357s, but the recoil is so bad, quick follow up shots are tough on the hands. I think the only reason I would every carry .357s in my 360 is if I need to knock someone out, make them deaf, blind and set them on fire. Because the noise, concussion and fireball that comes out of that little gun when it is loaded up with .357s reminds me of the noisy cricket from MiB.
I think that little Ruger has potential. I have been looking into them today and so far I have yet to read a bad review. Reliably seems to be really good. I plan on getting one, like I said before, not to replace my little 360, but to have as a quick pocket pistol when I need to make that late night trip to the store and all I have on is athletic pants and a t-shirt. Nobody is going to notice that little slim pocket pistol stashed in my pocket and I have no reservations about the .380 round.
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So what happened to carbon fiber projectile launchers that used carbon fiber sabbot darts with electrical fired sold propellant bases? I thought those could be broken down and the parts not recognised in your carry on along with the batteries installed in your camera or game boy?
Wasent a prototype produced by a german firm and congress lost its mind over that some years back?
H&K P11 ?
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sig.. I have a scandium 340 pd like the 38 special you show next to the little ruger.. mine weighs 12 oz and is smaller than the gun you show since I have wood undercover grips on it.
the main difference between the ruger and it is that mine has 3 times the power of the ruger. with 125 grain federal hollow points it is a proven manstopper while the .380 has been proven to be lacking in power. the revolver is reliable with all ammo and the drill for a dud round is.... pull the trigger again. It has a shrouded hammer and can even be fired from inside of a pocket.
the drill for making it ready to fire and fire is... pull the trigger (squeeze for you purists). I can hit man sized targets at 50 yards with the PD but...
It is a whole new world of recoil. after it saves your life your hand will sting for a few days.
lazs
(http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/model442.jpg)
I have a S&W 442 - a small "hammerless" 5 shot pocket revolver in .38spc+P (in black colored scandium). Love that little pistol - you can carry it in jeans pockets without fear of it "printing" through the material, and it hits like a sledgehammer.
I fired 100 +P rounds through it the first time I took it to the range - my palm "grew" a swollen red bar of flesh for about 3-5 days - I remember having great difficulty changing gears in my car :D
Slamfire
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Those little Smiths will do that to you. Even with standard 38 loads it can be tough on the hands.
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I just can't carry a little 38. Seen it used to little effect too many times. Better than nothing though.
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It's a remarkable feat of engineering. Must have been a fine jeweler to put that together.
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I just can't carry a little 38. Seen it used to little effect too many times. Better than nothing though.
So how many shoot outs have you seen then? :D
The .38 is fine. I still carry a 9mm, even though the macho types at the range and gun store want everyone to think that if it ain't a 45 then it ain't nothing. It is all about shot placement. You can have the deadliest bullet in the world and it is totally useless if you can't hit what you are aiming at or you hit someone in the arm, leg, ect.
The key word is shot placement, if you hit the CT with a 125 gr 38 + P JHP of just about any brand you are going to get results. Same goes for 9mm. I like the lighter rounds, I can pop quick follow up shots without having to look though a giant fireball and huge muzzle rise throwing my site picture off.
No matter what you use, you need to train with it, then train some more and when you have done that, train some more still. The motto is; "Train to fight, fight to live". Bad training methods have more to do with being killed in a gun fight then the caliber chosen.
After the 1986 Miami shoot out everyone was quick to dismiss the 9mm and 38 calibers as obsolete and under powered. When in reality it was poor training that had more to do with the failure than anything else. One thing that stuck out in my mind after reading the AAR from that shooting where the empty shell casings found in the pocket and in the hand of one of the agents killed. This points to a bad range habit. At a lot of police ranges and most any range you go to you have to "police" your own brass. A lot of guys who shoot wheel guns have the habit of dumping the empty brass into their hand so that they do not have to pick it up later.
Fast forward to the shooting and here is this habit popping up on the street. Now you have an agent unloading his spent brass into one hand and dropping it into his pocket mixed in with good rounds. This is a mistake that can easily get you killed. I am not saying that it did, but it points to a "software" problem and not a "hardware" issue.
Most people who have been in a shooting say that everything shuts down for them. Everything becomes muscle memory. They operate on a sort of auto pilot if you will. Things become automatic and habits of training pop up. That can be a plus or a negtive depending on luck and how well you have trained to fight for your life.
So when it comes to questing calibers I have none. I question weapon reliability, function and performance. I will leave my survival up to me to decide, not the caliber I choose. Better software, not hardware wins the day.
A great read about the 1986 Miami shoot out. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
As for this tiny gun. It is neat, but there is no way that thing would ever be practical. It would make a neat piece of jewelry though..
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Excellent post BBBB, especially about muscle memory and training.
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Nice post BBBB, one of the best firearms related posts I've seen on this BBS to date.
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bbbb... I watched a 38 bounce off a guys head. it was pretty darn good shot placement too since it hit him about an inch and a half above his eyebrow. the guy who was shot then broke a 30-30 rifle by hitting the attacker with it.
I have hit jackrabits with 3 hollow point .380's beretta with a 4" barrel (way more velocity than the ruger) and watched em run away.
While I agree that killing the attacker is not the idea.. I think that stopping him from continued aggression is of the utmost importance. and.. the closer the attacker the more important it is. Any gun is better than no gun but putting 6 or seven fatal shots into someone and the having them club you to death or stab you to death before they crawl off to die is not my idea of a win.
the 340PD with .357 mag. 125 federals is simply the best round I can carry in a small package. I will soak my hand latter. shot placement is no problem.. at arms length obviously... farther than that... no problem up to about 25 yards.. after that.. why the hell am I shooting at someone? and.. if I have to.. why am I not using the handgun to keep his head down till I can get to a rifle or shotgun?
I have a makarov that I trust.. a tiny bit more power than a .380.. lots more than a 2" .380.. I also have a walther PPK in .32 I am not unarmed with them but.. they are not confidence inspiring.
I also like the reliability of not only the stopping power but the revolver.. I like that I can simply pull the trigger again if the round is a dud. double action autos allow you to do this but.. only on the round in the chamber.. if the primer was bad... you can pull the trigger till hell freezes over.
To me.. the J frame smiths are the right size.. not so small that they are hard to draw or turn around in the pocket but.. not so big that they print on the clothes if you have a desanitis or such pocket holster.
They can also be fired if they are pressed against an attacker.. one dirty little secret of semiautos is that if you press them into someones body.. it probly won't fire... you will have moved the slide out of battery enough for the semiauto to not fire.
For full size handguns.. anything will do but I like 44 mag and 45 auto and 45 colt. My cut down ruger redhawk (4") in 44 mag is brutal.. and reliable. Hydroshocks in the 44 and 45 Kimber. I have shot animals with these rounds and they work pretty well.
lazs
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bbbb... I watched a 38 bounce off a guys head. it was pretty darn good shot placement too since it hit him about an inch and a half above his eyebrow.
your supposed to shoot it, not throw it.
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:rofl
I was thinking the same thing!
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There are always going to be the 1% situations. I have read reports where the .38 round has failed. However when you look at the type of ammo used it all becomes clear. You have to use the right tool for the job. Using standard FMJ or cheap low grade ammo is going to get you low grade results.
Once you have picked your caliber, you need to pick the right round in that caliber. Ballistics mean something. You have to take into account that if you have to fire your weapon at someone it is a life and death situation for that person and it has been reported time and time again that humans possess can perform some amazing feats when their life is on the line. It all has to do with the makeup of the person in question.
As for your 340PD. I would advise against loading it with .357s. I have seen three blow up on the range. There are a couple of websites dedicated to the problem. Shooting a .357 out of a snubbie is over kill in my book, but if you feel it is going to help you win a fight if you ever find yourself in one, then by all means carry a way. I am nobody to be telling you how to live and preserve your life. To each is his own.
http://www.thegunzone.com/sw340pd.html
I a little back ground about me so that no one thinks I am just some gun nut. I am a former police officer, I am still an auxiliary Deputy Sheriff for a county south of Atlanta. I only do this to keep my certification here in the state. My uncle is a Sgt with that same department. He has been assigned to the range as the dept range master, armorer and instructor. I have spent hundreds of hours down there with him. I have been able to talk to dozens of officers involved in shootings and watched hours upon hours of shooting and fighting videos from dash cams. This has been a valuable asset in insuring I survive a deadly encounter.
I have been lucky, not only do I have my uncle to help me sharpen my teeth, but the range is also shared by the county police and they have two of the finest range masters in the country. Between the three of them I have some of the best instruction money can by all for free.
I have always been into handguns, shotguns and sub guns. I am not a big rifle guy. I like the CQB stuff. I am not big into martial arts at all, but I do take Krav Maga because it incorporates firearms and it is based around close encounters.
I feel if you are going to carry a firearm day after day, night after night, to not only defend your life, but the lives of those around you, then you need to make yourself as sharp as possible. I feel it is the users responsibility to train and study, not in the hopes of one day being a hero or a tough guy, but as someone who survived or kept others alive though their knowledge.
There is a gun by me or on me pretty much all the time. If I have to use that weapon to protect myself, my family or some random person from harm I am going to make sure I have the knowledge and the skill necessary not to fail them or myself.
There is a county police officer here that has been in three shootings. He has only been on the job for five years too! One on duty and two off duty. He has survived all three. Ask him how he does it? Training. He even used a .22 to save the life of someone else in one of those shootings. It goes to show that with the right training and tactics (software) you can protect yourself or someone else without using a fire breathing, hand cannon or a supped up auto with extended slide release levers and extended mag release button, laser sight/flashlight and a giant Houge slip on grip wrapped around the grip (super computer hardware). People buy that crap because they think it makes the better, when it is in fact training that makes someone better.
This officer who has been in three shootings, spends a lot of time on the range. He is always asking for help to better himself. That is key, assuming you have all the answers in your first mistake. Asking for help to better yourself is a win-win situation. You get the help you need to better understand something and you make a friend.
I would advise Laz, keep an open mind when it comes to self defense. It sounds like you do at some level when you made the comment that something is better than nothing. Even the best firearms in the world malfunction. My issued Glock 22 malfunctions from time to time. It happens. You have to be able to roll with the punches, adapt and over come. It is not about winning, it is about surviving. Careful with .357s in that 340, not because I don't think you can handle them..I just don't want to hear about your frame cracking or weapon exploding on you. Stay safe.
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ah, a 357 cartridge won't fit in a 38 gun, it's too long, they did that on purpose.
you can load 38's in a 357 gun.
i have one of them S&W hammer less airweights with a aluminium frame, S&W does not recommend shooting +P in it, they said it could stretch the frame.
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I am not sure what you are trying to say John..The 340PD and the 360PD are both .357 mag rated J frame revolvers. Because of this the 340PD and 360PD's in question can also chamber .38 +P and .38 special rounds as well.
What I was referring to was the 340s coming apart after a few 357 mag loads. I was not talking about loading a .357 round in a standard 38 or 38 +P.
As you can see in the photo, the 360PD is a .357 Mag rated revolver. I however do not load .357s in it because of the fireball, noise, concussion, recoil and muzzle rise I get when I fire .357 loads out of the 360.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/360pd2sg6.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/360pd3yh7.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/360pd5qc5.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/360pdpx7.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/360pd6iz1.jpg)
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ok, sorry , i didn't know the 340PD-360PD were 357's.
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bbbb.. I am not making light of your experience but... have you read marshall's book "streetstoppers".
the 38 and, even more so, the .380 do fail and, in every brand and type of ammo.
I have fired 4 boxes of 125 grain Federal .357 mags out of the 340 pd. I do not use the gun for range work or fun shooting but.. it is not in the least bit even "loose" One guy who is on this board fired most of a box of ammo through it in one short session.
I think that if you have seen 3 of them fail then you should write smith and wesson. I have never heard of one fail except in that one website (that has been around a long time) that you link.
My seeing (the guy was right next to me) a 158 grain hp 38 special bounce off someones skull and not stop him does not contradict the evidence of marshalls and others studies. At best.. a handgun is marginal.
I want as much as I can get. I have faith that my 340 will fire every time I pull the trigger. I have faith that reasonable placed shots will do as much to stop an attacker as can be expected from any handgun round.
I feel the same about my 45 Kimber and my cut down 44 mag redhawk but.. these guns are heavy. the 340 Pd is no more trouble than a cell phone to carry. I would rather have a 12 guage shotgun or my M1 garand in a shootout but.. I use what I got and what I got.. depends on the situation. If I ever get attacked at the range or out plinking they are in big trouble eh? but let's be realistic.. people just won't carry a full sized gun much.
I own a walther ppk in 32.. I own a makarov.. I own a K22 masterpiece.. I know every one of em is capable of killing.. not so sure that they are capable of stopping a fight in time for it to matter to me tho. that is the crux.. I am not gonna skin and eat em.. I just want to stop the bad man from doing bad things.
I fear the reliablilty of semi autos after 5 decades of shooting em. I trust miniature autos even less. I trust J frame and colt small frame and even charter arms small frame revolvers explicitly. I can hit man sized targets in the vital at 25 yards easily with the 340PD. A hit with a 125 hp .357 is the best chance you get. I have not had mine blow up nor have I seen one that was damaged.
A side note is that in sacramento at the gun store, they had about a half dozen of em on consignment from cops.. the cops who owned em wanted to get rid of em. they had to qualify with their backup gun and it had to have the ammo they used in it. It is too punishing to qualify with these guns with full house .357's I will admit that but.. none of em were "blown up". I would not want to run a course with one but.. there is no course that is anything like any real shooting I have ever heard of. especially... no civilian shooting I have ever heard of.
Lastly.. I think semi autos make people waste ammo and shoot wildly. I have always had a "revolver mindset" that, I only have 5 or six rounds. even if I have speedloaders or extra ammo.. there is no point in shooting unless you can hit what you aim at or.. have a reasonable chance of doing so.
I think we agree and am glad to see that you feel shot placement is important. I think shot placement covers a multitude of caliber/ammo sins. the .357 or 45 or 44 mag just come with less sins you have to cover for in the first place.
lazs
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Are those 340's really selling for $1100?
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Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?
You've never had to report weekly to senior management before, have you. :O They're always crawling up my arse. :(
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mini.. I had not heard that. I paid $750 for mine. some people who have shot it asked if I could get my money back.
As you can see.. you either hate or love the gun. it is not one that you shoot often tho but.. I have shot j frames all my life.. this is nothing more than another j frame.. practice with a airweight and wadcutters and you will know all you need to about the 340 when you need to shoot it.
It is a featherlight j frame that is accurate and powerful and.. despite the one old website and BBBB's experience.. they are reliable in the extreme.
lazs
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I was just looking at the MSRP at S&W's web site. $750 is still alot for that gun. I was expecting closer to the $450-500 range. It must be one fancy alloy.
I was pricing S&W .44 mags yesterday and they were hopping between $850-$950. I can't believe how much revolvers are climbing in price.
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Mini.. the thing is...
There are no plastic revolvers.
Price any good quality steel semi auto.. a Kimber for instance.
lazs
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I went to look up "Street Stoppers". What I found was not good:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm
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The autos have been coming down in price. The revolvers are going up in price. .45's have been high priced for some time, but are starting to drop. You can buy an entry level kimber for less than you paid for your 340. You can buy an entry level .45 (springfield) for significantly less than you paid for your 340. Don't get me wrong... I like revolvers reliability over the autos. I just remember when $600 was a very high price for one. It seems the pricing has completely reversed between the auto and revolver.
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aqua.. I have read both street stoppers and the critiques of it. I never paid much attention to stopping power theory.. everyone has an axe to grind it seems.
What I do look at in marshalls book is the pure data from shootings. the fact is that you have a much better chance of stopping someone quickly with a .357 than from a .380 say.. all else being equal. Best to just go with proven caliber and bullets.
the critique is valid.. there are mistakes and such in any study but.. they seem to have their own axe to grind and.. the plain truth is that more and more manufacturers and more and more shootings seem to point that a lighter faster bullet in the same caliber will dump more energy and cause more damage and.. will do a better job of stopping an attacker.
For instance.. they don't think much of the 44 mag for stopping power. they claim that it doesn't instantly stop the bad guy.. yet.. it has everything they ask for.. it has the weight.. the caliber and.. the velocity.. it is big enough and.. not only is it heavy but it has not the problems of heavy bullets.. it is fast.. for a handgun.. and that is the rub.. handgun bullets just don't get going fast enough to cause the kind of hydroshock damage that they seen to believe in.. shot placement.. and penetration and energy transfer (again, shot placement for handguns) seem to still be king.
The 44 mags really do a great job of killing. they pretty much killed everyone in the study.. they just didn't cause the guy to stop moving in every case.. no handgun bullet does unless it is a zombie killing headshot. the velocity just isn't there.. the good thing is.. the 44 has enough energy to penetrate to the vitals.. one of the few handgun rounds practical to carry that does. no handgun round is magic tho.
The truth is.. in real life as in marshalls study.. the .357 works. Best to go with rounds that work.
lazs
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There is no real question about the .357. It has been proven and proven and proven again. As for the 340s and 360s on the range with problems, I have a feeling all of them were being fed a steady diet of 357 mag loads. I have seen a few with cracking at the bottom left of the frame just below the cylinder, right in line with the angle. This seems to be the point of failure.
As for writing S&W, that would be pretty pointless. Guns explode all the time. The manufactures write it off at bad ammo, reloads, poor user maintenance habits..ect. It took a year of Glocks blowing up and officers making a fuss about it before Glock finally fixed the issue.
As for autos making some people waste ammo I do agree with you to a point. That is the old wheel gunners catch phrase. No autos are not as reliable as revolvers, but you pay for that less than performance with capacity, ROF and quick reloads.
I carry an auto for the "what if" situation. I would much rather have 40 9mm rounds in my Sig 229 than the 15 rounds for just my 360. I carry my 360 by it's self when it gets really hot in the summer here. Any other time you will find my 229 on me, along with my 360 on me somewhere. That gives me 45 rounds and two weapons to deal with. Would I use all this ammo during a shooting? I don't think I would. However, it is there if I need it and that makes me feel a little better.
Everyone needs to carry what makes them comfortable. I don't mind the lighter rounds. If you poled the experts you would find a good number of them have no problem with the lighter rounds them self. As you said before everyone has an axe to grind. If you hang around a police range long enough you will hear all kinds of wild theories and stories about this and that gun or caliber. We wait until they leave and have a pretty good laugh at their expense. More so when all the evidence points to the contrary.
The .38 got a bad rap a long time ago and has not been able to shake that image no matter what upgrades it has done. The .38 +P round is a pretty snappy round and I know I would hate to be on the receiving end of one.
You are always going to find bad guys in history that seemed to have super human like strength and it took a ridiculous amount of ammo to bring them down. The problem is most of those situations involved cops with .38s and 9mm..and they got the bad rap. If you look into current police shootings you will see failures in the .40 or .357 Sig. Hell I can even find you reports that say the 125gr JHP .357 round is not safe to use because it does not penetrate well when the bad guy has a heavy jacket on.
Most of these "reports" come from opinions reached by nut jobs who think that when you hit someone with a bullet they should come off their feet and fly back 10 feet. The other side of these reports are cops, civilians who have a beef or want some fame by telling the world they were right all along. Finally, some where right in the middle, hidden behind and under all that junk knowledge is someones report that is totally true.
What I am trying to say here is, like in all things in life there are going to be reports to tell you something is bad, followed by a report telling you no it's not, or that it is good. Firearms because of the nature of there use are subject to this back and forth more so than other products.
I take the reports I hear and read with a grain of salt. I read and study up on what brand of ammo I carry enough that I am comfortable with carrying it. How well the ammo performs for me in a gun fight? Well I hope I never have to find out. However, if the round or my weapon fail me, then God willing I will be here to scream to high heaven about that failure, just as soon as I know that failure wasn't because of an over sight or something stupid I did.
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Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?
Not really.
I would expect it to be the norm for any man that carpets his garage.
So it doesnt really surprise me.
:D
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Damn thats small. In the summer here I carry a little S&W 360PD for concealed carry. I question the reliability of that little .380. It kind of reminds me of a Kel-tec, it looks a lot like one.
I looked it up while I was writing this, 330$'s thats not to bad for a little pocket pistol. I watched the video, they sold me. It seems as if reliability is sound. I am going to pick one up. Like the video said, not to replace my 360PD or my Sig 229 9mm I carry the rest of the year, but as my "go to the store and walk the dog" pistol. Thanks for the heads up 220. :aok
http://www.ruger.com/LCP/Video.html
I'm thinking about one too. I recently replaced my compact SIG 220 .45 with a smaller S&W M&P .40 compact model. But the gun still weighs 24 oz unloaded and needs a holster.
This little Ruger would be so easy to just plop into a pocket.
BTW, some retailers are selling it for only $295!!
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sig.. I have a scandium 340 pd like the 38 special you show next to the little ruger.. mine weighs 12 oz and is smaller than the gun you show since I have wood undercover grips on it.
the main difference between the ruger and it is that mine has 3 times the power of the ruger. with 125 grain federal hollow points it is a proven manstopper while the .380 has been proven to be lacking in power. the revolver is reliable with all ammo and the drill for a dud round is.... pull the trigger again. It has a shrouded hammer and can even be fired from inside of a pocket.
the drill for making it ready to fire and fire is... pull the trigger (squeeze for you purists). I can hit man sized targets at 50 yards with the PD but...
It is a whole new world of recoil. after it saves your life your hand will sting for a few days.
lazs
There is nothing wrong at all with small S&W revolvers, as they are about as reliable as a gun can be.
You do overstate the .38's power advantage, though. The most powerful Federal +P .38 ammo only generates 295 ft lbs of energy. A number of .380 auto loads will generated between 200 and 220 ft lbs of energy. 7 shots from this Ruger ( 220 x 7 = 1,540 ft lbs of total energy ) will thus have more stopping power than 5 shots from the best .38 load ( 295 x 5 = 1,475 ft lbs of total energy )
In comparison, the ammo in my S&W M&P 40 compact has 463 ft lbs of energy. 10 x 463 = 4,630 ft lbs of total energy for the gun. My full size Glock 17 has ammo generating 440 ft lbs of energy. 19 x 440 = 8,360 ft lbs of total energy. And my full size SIG 220 has ammo generating 573 ft lbs of energy. 8 x 573 = 4,584 ft lbs of total energy for the gun.
So both the .38 Special and .380 and these compact guns designed for them are compromises, in my opinion. You compromise power, for much better concealability that makes carrying the gun so much easier.
And any gun that you don't have with you is pretty useless.
I did shoot a jackrabbit once with my Glock, using Corbon's 115 gr +P 9mm JHP load. However, almost all of the rabbit's internal organs are visible in the photo I snapped, so I really cannot post it here.
The jackrabbit was no more than 30 yards away from me when I fired. The first shot went right over his head. Windage was perfect, I just shot a little high. The bullet made a big puff of smoke in the dirt behind the rabbit. The funny thing is that the stupid jackrabbit just stood there, like nothing had happened. My second shot hit slightly low ( I overcompensated just a tad ), and it opened up his entire underside.
Another odd thing was that one of the jackrabbit's rear legs kept twitching for about 5 minutes, even though it was dead. It was really sort of a freaky thing to see.
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I have never had a problem with the small sub rounds like .380 and pocket pistols are just to stop a threat. Even so, seven rounds of .380 going in the bad guys direction is going to get results.
Winchester's Ranger Law Enforcement ammo is not that hard for civilians to buy. Just look at this comparison of their .380 Auto load with their top +P+ 9mm load:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/ranger_compare.jpg)
Yes, this certainly will not match the performance of what this 9mm ammo provides when fired from my Glock 17. But it is still going to create some nasty wounds.
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For full size handguns.. anything will do but I like 44 mag and 45 auto and 45 colt. My cut down ruger redhawk (4") in 44 mag is brutal.. and reliable. Hydroshocks in the 44 and 45 Kimber. I have shot animals with these rounds and they work pretty well.
lazs
One of my Dad's neighbors used to hunt Black bear way up in the northern most parts of California, until his hip problems made him give up big game hunting. The only gun he ever used for Bear hunting was his Colt Gold Cup 1911 .45 Auto. And he always had it loaded with the Federal 230 gr Hydrashok ammo.
In the den of his house, he has two beautiful bear rugs, complete with heads, mounted on the walls. And a third one on the floor of the room. These were significant sized animals, too.
For Deer and Antelope hunting, he always used a .300 Weatherby Magnum rifle. So he owned some very powerful rifles. Yet, for hunting bear at the closest ranges imaginable, he felt well armed with the 230 gr Federal Hydrashoks in his gun.
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Are those 340's really selling for $1100?
No, the Street price is much lower. You can find dealers selling them for only $700
Still, there are a lot of high quality auto pistols that can still be bought new for under $500
If you want to buy a new .44 magnum revolver, though, that will definitely cost you even more, if you get a Smith and Wesson.
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Well I've bit the "bullet" , pun intended, I singed up for my LTC course. In about 9 weeks I should be licensed to carry. So I'll soon be PMing you all on gun selection.
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sig..you need to pay attention.
I did not say that 38's were a great round. I said my 340pd was a great gun and that I carry 125 grain JHP THREE FIVE SEVEN MAGNUM rounds in it. there is a world of difference. I don't think you will find a semi auto the same weight and size that packs that much punch. as for kalifornia black bear? they are really not too tough.. pretty easy to kill.
BBBB.. I agree.. I hear lot's of stuff from the cops at the range that is pure BS.. from everyone really.. it is fun to fill a gallon milk jug with water and shoot various rounds at it. .357 and 44 do make a pretty neat demo.
I have no problem with you thinking you need to carry 40 or 50 rounds but I see no point in it for me.. If I need more than 5 or six rounds and a reload.. I need to get out of there...oh.. I hate those speedloaders you show.. the twisty ones? I like the safariland ones that shoot the rounds into the cyl.. I guess that I just don't want to carry all that extra ammo and weight cause if I need that much then I would rather not have it and be lighter so that I can run to my rifle or shotgun.
I don't have a lot of experience with smith so far as returning broken guns but I would be disapointed if they did not replace a broken one.. ruger and henry have both replaced broken guns.. one was 30 years old... with no questions asked and no charge.
I like to take guys jack hunting.. running jacks.. I probly fire about a tenth of the ammo the semi auto guys do.. sometimes they even get one or so more than me at the end of the day but... the gee wiz bullets in 9mm or 380 or even 45 don't do any better job than my K22 masterpiece on stopping.. the 44 mag is pretty decisive.. .357's always seem to do a good job.
There are reasons people don't hunt deer with .380's or 38's or 9mm or even 45 autos.. it can be done.. I killed a few with a 22 high standard 6".. but.. the shot placement has to be perfect and even then.. far to much chance of failure. the nazis proved my little walther is a good killer in .32... if the guy is kneeling down in front of a hole.
Now.. if you won't trust the gun on a 100 lb deer or 7 lb jack.....
I love handguns.. shoot em all the time..shot em for 5 decades.. millions of rounds.. but.. they are a lousy substitute for a rifle or shotgun in a fight.. get the most powerful one you can handle and are willing to carry...
lazs
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I have the safariland ones too. I like them more than the HKS as well. The reality is, I only keep the speed loaders for the house. Like I said most of the time I keep my 360 as a back up, so I don't really carry extra ammo for it.
However when I only carry the 360 I keep a few Bianchi 580 Speed Strips in my pockets. It holds six rounds, they are a little slower than a true speed loader but they offer better concealability. I can easily carry five speed strips if I wanted to, bringing my round count for my little 360 up to 30 and nobody would be the wiser. Try that with a standard speed loader lol.
When I do only carry my 360 I typically only carry a pair of speed strips. The reality of it is, if I were caught in a situation where I am having to reload, even with a speed loader or speed strip, chances are I am in over my head anyhow and no amount of pre-planing can help me then. So I try to not worry about carrying far, far less ammo when I am just carrying my 360, than when I carry my 229/360 combo. Like I said having more boom, boom, makers makes me feel a little better, but to each is his own.
JBA, if you have any questions you are welcome to ask me or PM me. However, I would advise that what ever advice you receive from me or anyone else, you should do you own research to find out what best fits you, your needs and makes you comfortable. Because at the end of the day, it is your life you are responsible for and it will be in your hands the decisions you make.
The formula I use when picking a firearm for concealed carry goes as followed. Reliability, performance, concealability, weight, capacity, caliber. Some of those things are give me's. If you are new to firearms and carrying, I would suggest a revolver. What they lack in capacity they more than make up for in reliability, performance and caliber. Most of the offerings from S&W and Taurus USA are also light weight and highly concealable.
Revolvers are simple. I call them "dummy guns", not to imply that the shooter is a dummy, but to express how simple they are when it comes to high stress shooting situations. Malfunctions with the weapon it's self almost never happen. You are more likely to have a bad round or bad primer. The great thing about a revolver, if it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, squeeze again (notice I used the word "squeeze" for all you purest out there). So you can't go wrong with a wheel gun for a great start up carry weapon. I would strongly suggest you go this route.
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I agree... revolvers are dummy guns as you explained it.. simple is good when you are pumped up and shaking.. people shake when scared.. I do.
From decades of revolver shooting I noticed that I always grab two rounds and load em two at a time.. guys have asked why I do that.. it is just somehow easier for me.. it for sure is faster. I don't carry speedloaders on me either.. nor extra mags for the kimber.. they are in my suitcase tho. I have ammo at all my friends houses the like guns.. if I want to go shooting I can use my own reloads that are there.
Wheelguns are old and simple but what they did then they can still do now. I would rather have a black powder single action than the little ruger .380 even.
lazs