Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Sled on March 06, 2008, 03:24:15 PM

Title: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 06, 2008, 03:24:15 PM: OK guys, this has been a building problem for the last few events, but in this last event, it got REALY BAD. :eek:

We have GOT to maintain better control over our squad numbers at the start of the event. We had 8 squads that were grossly out of their number commitments as listed on the AH events site. Including my own squad, so I am griping at myself here too.

The following squads were the offenders. I know some of these squads may have moved players to a different squad so they would stay in numbers. If that is you then please disregard this, and thank you. However, the people that got moved still show as members of your squad.

Also, some of the squads have made changes to their numbers for the upcoming event, they show in Bold. The squads that show Italicized need to still change their numbers.

USMC / 71sqn (16-21) Frm 1 = 15, Frm 2 = 13, Frm 3 = 13

LCA (11-15) Frm 1 = 18, Frm 2 = 19 Frm 3 = 20 :eek:

Fate (11-15) Frm 1 = 8, Frm 2 = 8, Frm 3 = 6

31st FG (16-21) Frm 1 = 13, Frm 2 = 12, Frm 3 = 8 :eek:

367th Dynamite gang (4-6) Frm 1 = 8, Frm 2 = 16, :eek: :eek: Frm 3 = 17, :eek: :eek: I am guessing recruitment was good.

Unfrogiven (16-21) Frm 1 = 11, Frm 2 = 13, Frm 3 = 19

55fg Velociraptors Frm 1 = 0:eek:, Frm 2 = 5, Frm 3 = 9

353rd FG (7-10) Frm 1 = 14, Frm 2 = 14, Frm 3 = 11.

I don't know what else to say but, that is not good. it is really hard to run an event with controlled numbers when the numbers are out of control.

I know that deciding on a commitment number for your squad is very difficult. A lot of squad members only come every couple of weeks, and no one wants to say "No room" when they show up, But sometimes that is the way it has got to be.

It is better to guess low on your numbers, as it is easier to turn people away, than it is to try to find people to fill spots. Also, once the sides are chosen for an event you can not change your numbers until that next event sign up.

I don't want to get to a situation where I am going to have to start removing squads from FSO for repeated numbers violations. But that is what will have to happen if this continues.

Please feel free to post any explanations and comments.

:)
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: snowey on March 06, 2008, 06:17:23 PM: sory but a couple of us were sick and had strict parents :cry the last one was that one person joined when we didnt need him small eror :mad:
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 06, 2008, 06:21:53 PM: Quote from: snowey on March 06, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
sory but a couple of us were sick and had strict parents :cry the last one was that one person joined when we didnt need him small eror :mad:

I Don't know what squad you are in Snowey.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Husky01 on March 06, 2008, 06:41:20 PM: 55fg Velociraptors Sled.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: daddog on March 06, 2008, 08:12:48 PM: No excuse for squads being over their numbers. I can’t count the times I have some of my guys sit out or ride shotgun (observer) when we have been over our numbers. Sure you might have one or two too many once and a while that slip by, but that should be all we see in FSO. Zero tolerance.

Low numbers are another story. It can be much harder for a squad to have control of that. Sometimes you just have a night where lots of guys are working, sick, tired, not interested in that particular FSO, or just doing some family stuff. Flexibility on the part of the CM team with squads that have low numbers is understandable.

High numbers. No excuse.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 06, 2008, 08:16:36 PM: Quote from: daddog on March 06, 2008, 08:12:48 PM
No excuse for squads being over their numbers. I can’t count the times I have some of my guys sit out or ride shotgun (observer) when we have been over our numbers. Sure you might have one or two too many once and a while that slip by, but that should be all we see in FSO. Zero tolerance.

Low numbers are another story. It can be much harder for a squad to have control of that. Sometimes you just have a night where lots of guys are working, sick, tired, not interested in that particular FSO, or just doing some family stuff. Flexibility on the part of the CM team with squads that have low numbers is understandable.

High numbers. No excuse.

I have to agree. Major over number violations can not be tolerated.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: snowey on March 06, 2008, 09:05:23 PM: the worst part about it was that the extra person was zoozoo i nearly killed my self so did homer
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Shifty on March 06, 2008, 09:11:12 PM: Sorry we've had a huge recruiting boom since TheBug figured out what the soap was really for.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Redlegs on March 06, 2008, 09:13:44 PM: Quote from: snowey on March 06, 2008, 09:05:23 PM
the worst part about it was that the extra person was zoozoo i nearly killed my self so did homer

:lol :lol :lol HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: ghostdancer on March 07, 2008, 10:45:11 AM: Remember squads if you have more pilots shows up than you can field, get on the horn to the other squads on your side. CMs in the past have never had a problem with you taking your overage and having them fly under another squads colors who hasn't maxed out.

So if you get more pilots showing up than you expected .. get on the country channel and say .. my squads has two guys to many, could any other squad use them?

It keeps your numbers in line and most likely will help another squad that might be very, very low on numbers. Basically a win, win.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: REP0MAN on March 07, 2008, 11:41:14 AM: GhostDancer is right.

I, as a Setup CM, will never have a problem with squads that are over their commitment level sharing their pilots with another registered squad who is under. That is a great way to alleviate some of the frame by frame attendance issues. It just makes sense.

On a side note, SLED, I'll update the level for the UNFORGIVEN and have a chat with the squad about attendance. I was not part of the command structure on the last event, so I'm not sure why we were so far under numbers the first two frames. We apologize and will work to alleviate any further issues.

:aok
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: DakOne on March 07, 2008, 12:52:12 PM: Sorry Sled. Miscommunication betewwn Pez and myself. I thought we had already up our numbers. My fault.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: forHIM on March 07, 2008, 06:28:16 PM: Remember,

commitment level is for the entire set of frames. So what GD sees this weekend on the ahevents.org site as commitment level is what you are stuck with for the entire March event. No changes mid-stream.

edit: nevermind GD already assigned sides. Any changes now would have to get both SLED and GD's approval.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: daddog on March 07, 2008, 09:58:07 PM: Gents,

I just want to say that Sled has really cut you guys some slack. It is important for your future participation in FSO that you get your numbers under control and keep them under control. Especially when he has guys like me telling him to boot em. He does not want to drop any squads from FSO, but I know he will next round should someone be way over with their numbers again, especially once you have been warned. He is nicer about this than I ever was.

I would rather have 250 in FSO who are on top of things than 350 who don’t allow CM’s to balance sides because squad numbers are always out of wack. That hurts the event for everyone.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Imoutfishing on March 08, 2008, 03:19:36 AM: I simply say,

This has not been an issue for years. What has changed?

MGD
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 08, 2008, 04:32:28 AM: Quote from: Imoutfishing on March 08, 2008, 03:19:36 AM
I simply say,

This has not been an issue for years. What has changed?

MGD

2 things.

1. I have been too lenient with this type of thing. I don't like the idea of having to penalize people just because they want to attend. I don't want to penalize squads that are trying to build their pilot base. That WILL have to change.

2. A lot of these squads are very new to FSO, I don't think they fully appreciate the impact that their squad being drastically over numbers has. They need to learn just how important staying in their commitment numbers is.

Like I said, I know much of this is squads trying to build, by inviting other players to come fly. It is quite hard to explain to those pilots, that you invited, that you don't have the room and they have to:

A. fly with another (strange) squad.

or

B. Not fly in FSO at all.

All I can say about recruitment........ squad leaders MUST keep a feel for how many people are going to attend your FSO's. If you commitment level is 4-6, and you know 4 are going to show, DON'T invite (recruit) another 15 people. :)
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: forHIM on March 08, 2008, 08:38:26 AM: Another thing to note, if you are over your numbers and the "extras" decide to gun/observe, let the host CM no so that they can pass the information along to the rest of the CM staff and/or FSO Admin. This will prevent penalties from being applied if your guys were just observing.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: RSLQK186 on March 08, 2008, 10:46:37 AM: A reminder that you can shuttle pilots to another squad in terquose or gold text 5 min before fields open may help.
I know it's not the CM's job, but it eventualy become their problem when commitment levels are off. Would not blame you if you ignored me, you all have enough to do as it is.

And often squad jumping could be handled in tower. Too many escorts, too few bombers or 2 small defence squads. This may keep them close to their regular squad and the same goal. The ones who switch can act as liaisons also.

Just remember, you must dress in the other squads uniform, fly their plane and fly with them. It will stand out in the logs if you don't ;)

As for being under in frame 2, we were at our bare minimum till launch. I counted 14 before and 13 after launch. Not even sure who it was and could not do anything about it after the fact. But it was being monitered.

I was not there for frame 1, but I usually keep up with this for the squad along with fuel and range. So this ones on me. Sorry
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 08, 2008, 05:03:15 PM: Correction

31st fighter group was not out of numbers as badly as I originally thought. They registered for Cruel sea as 11-15, NOT 16-21.

Their attendance: Frm 1 = 13, Frm 2 = 12, Frm 3 = 8. So they were not in violation to the degree I had thought.

My apologies 31st FG. :aok
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: sqwiglly on March 09, 2008, 12:51:41 AM: hey yall,sorry from ~~~FATE~~~ for being low on numbers,

one guy got called off to war
another had a heart attack
two people had comp problems and couldnt get in
one had to goto church...to pastor it
and one went offshore to blow somethin up and stop an oil leak...

life happens
be funny if it werent true

you wanna kick us because were low after 5 years of flyin tods...go ahead. :aok

we gonna at least have a 3 strike rule?

and no i dont need 3 explinations of what they realy meant or how im missing it...i read it.
just let us know if you change the rules again please
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: trax1 on March 09, 2008, 12:57:35 AM: I think they don't care as much about low numbers then they do about having over your numbers.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 09, 2008, 01:45:09 AM: Quote from: sqwiglly on March 09, 2008, 12:51:41 AM

just let us know if you change the rules again please

Sqwig,

No rules have been "changed".

But, "after 5 years of flyin tods", you already know that.

:aok
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: LCCajun on March 09, 2008, 09:13:02 AM: I will make sure precision #'s are correct. Thank ya'll
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: ghostdancer on March 09, 2008, 11:28:15 AM: Actually we are more understanding about low numbers. As people said life happens. However, when it comes to low numbers we look for a pattern since a squad not turning out can screw up a sides plan just as badly.

i.e. You assign a squad to JABO and they don't turn out or have massively low number, affects your battle plan

But yes, high numbers always raises a red flag. Again if you have more than you max +2 contact other squads on your side. There are always squads that can use a few pilots. Your extra guys just have to wear there colors for the frame not yours.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: AKKaz on March 09, 2008, 11:47:31 AM: Quote from: forHIM on March 08, 2008, 08:38:26 AM
Another thing to note, if you are over your numbers and the "extras" decide to gun/observe, let the host CM no so that they can pass the information along to the rest of the CM staff and/or FSO Admin. This will prevent penalties from being applied if your guys were just observing.

I don't remember seeing any penalties handed out, I know they have been before but didn't see any this time, unless I just missed it.
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Tattered on March 09, 2008, 01:35:45 PM: I'd like to explain why 367th had so many numbers. This was my first FSO and I was confused about when you could change the amount of number of pilots you planned on bringing. So after the first frame I thought I was allowed to go back in and change how many pilots I was going to bring to the next frame. I changed it to 7-10 I believe. Then I believe I went back and changed it again to the next amount.

After doing that I had talked to BearKatz and he told me that you could only do that at the begining of the first frame. Following that you had to remain with the number you picked.

This kinda left me in a pickle because the orders that I were givin from the axis CIC were for the number I had all ready changed it to. This was 30 minutes or so before the second frame. So, because my CIC was expecting and had planned on my having more numbers I went in with the larger group. Then, for the third frame I was going to go back to the lower number but again, I got my orders and they were for 367th to have 11-15 pilots. So again, I made the decision to go in with the larger group.

Sorry to all the guys that spent weeks setting this up only to have my squad come in with extra pilots. My plan was to just ride out my first FSO and, now knowing the accurate rules, make sure that our second FSO, we follow the rules by the book.

Again, this was a rookie mistake and I have no plan on breaking any more of your rules again. It was just a rule I was unclear of and snow balled from there.

~Tattered
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Sled on March 09, 2008, 03:28:35 PM: Quote from: AKKaz on March 09, 2008, 11:47:31 AM
I don't remember seeing any penalties handed out, I know they have been before but didn't see any this time, unless I just missed it.

There were NO penaltys handed out THIS time. Consider this a formal warning, it will probably be the last one.

Tattered,

I understand, we all live and learn. Now you now know you need, to monitor the situation more closely.

I have put out maximum effort to make sure that ALL Co's and xo's have seen this thread. "I didn't know" will not fly in the future.

:)
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: Bannor on March 09, 2008, 03:44:25 PM: I too apologize for ~~~FATE~~~. I thought I had changed our committments for the previous frame (lowered) but I could be mistaken. We wil try to clean it up on our end. Our squad has enjoyed flying FSO over the years. Unfortunutaly for me I am haveing to miss them for the foreseeable future due to my real life committments, but whomever we have in charge for the night we will be sure they communicate with cic's to fill in the low spots or farm out extras. We have always tried to maintain a standard of excellence in the MA and FSO.

<S>
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: 96Delta on March 12, 2008, 10:09:59 PM: The LCA is keen to prevent this from happening in the future
so I have dug through my old files to uncover a form I
designed to address this very topic.

I just wish that I had unearthed it and gotten it
into the hands of LCA Group Command before this happened.

Anyway, this might help with managing FSO Attendance
and Squad Commitments going forward.

It can be difficult to estimate the number of slots to commit
to when signing up for FSO. I've been there and feel your pain.. :rolleyes:

One thing I started to do to keep track of who was commiting
and who actually showed up was to keep attendance. To
help me do that I designed this form.

"Friday Squad Operations Roster & Attendance Record":
http://david.tenifer.com/aceshigh/pdf/FSO_Attendance.pdf

Here is how I used it to manage FSO attendance:

Column 1: the first column is the pilot count.
Column 2: the 'Attendance' column has blocks for each frame of the FSO.

Using the 4 example boxes above the table, I would fill in the box
reflecting the pilots status:
- Box completely filled in means a pilot was present and accounted for.
- Box with a dot in it means a pilot with a reserved slot was AWOL
and did not let anyone know in advance of their FSO absence.

If a pilot is consistently AWOL, then I would not reserve a slot for them in
the upcoming FSO ('consistently' for me meant missing more than 2
frames 'without leave' during the current FSO). Such pilots could only
participate in the current and next upcoming FSO as Standby's.

- Box with one corner filled in means a pilot with a reserved slot
informed us in advance that he wouldn't make it and was granted 'leave'.
- Box with X in it means that pilot did not reserve a slot for FSO but
showed up anyway and was placed on standby.

Column 3-5: The 3rd, 4th and 5th columns are self explanatory.

MANAGING STANDBYS
Column 6: This column primarily applied to Standbys (players who
have not reserved a slot in advance) who showed up for FSO expecting to
play.

Sometimes we would have more pilots than available slots
within our commitment range. If we couldn't slot a player I would leave
the block for that frame empty. If we were able to slot them, I would put
an 'X' in the block. Using this method I was able to prioritize a Standby
for a slot in the subsequent frame.

Standby's were entered onto the form in the order that they arrived.
Available slots were filled on a first-come, first-served basis.

Anyway, thats how I did it in the past and it worked reasonably well.
Hope it works equally well for you. 8)

David
Title: Re: MAJOR FSO issue, ALL READ!
Post by: 4440 on March 13, 2008, 12:13:34 AM: VFA-169 Excaliburs have been thoroughly briefed on the subject and understand.

In addition we are more than happy to accept extras providing we are below max.