Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ghostdancer on March 11, 2008, 02:34:06 PM
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Gentlemen,
I wanted to drop you all a note about the weather conditions you will be facing in the Aleutians. To put it simple it is going to be very like the real weather there, which is BAD.
During WW2 the Aleutians Theater suffered the highest plane lost of any theater, which was 4 to 5 times higher than other theaters. This was not do to combat this was do to the weather.
So this event is reflecting the scale of the fighting ( a front roughly 500 miles long from Kiska to Dutch Harbor) and also the horrible weather.
- Visibility is at 6 miles. So it is foggy
- There will be clouds, roughly 15K and up
- There will be wind, again 15K and up from 5 to 15 mph. It will be random
What does this all mean to you? I think it is safe to say to both sides that you will live and die by your scouts and pickets. Fighting will most likely be centered around the objectives since you have a much reduced chance of just running across an enemy strike en route unless you establish effective pickets / scouts.
In any FSO event team work is essential, in these conditions it will be even more so. It will be easy for people to get lost from their squad if they get separated. Keep that in mind, 6 miles away from your buddy and you can't see him anymore. Squads scatter during engagement will probably have a hard time linking up (much harder than in a clear visibility event with say 17 miles of visibility).
Now I ask you to think on this and all of you to prep yourself and your squaddies for these conditions. Fighting in reduce visibility and bad weather is going to challenge you and them and your coordination and team work will really be what turns the battle toward or against your squad and side.
Lastly as always a strong turn out will help you side. Remember you can go over your Max commitment number +2. If you have more pilots turn up than that, remember they don't count as walk ons since they are part of your squad and have been brief. Contact other squads on your side and see if they can use an extra pilot or two (they will just have to wear that other squads colors in the frame though).
Good hunting .. and always remember there is a bounty of a case of scotch for anybody who shoots down Daddog or Sled.
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Ghost Dancer
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- Visibility is at 6 miles. So it is foggy
- There will be clouds, roughly 15K and up
- There will be wind, again 15 k and up from 5 to 15 mph. It will be random
:aok I love the weather end of it.
Good hunting .. and always remember there is a bounty of a case of scotch for anybody who shoots down Daddog or Sled.
:eek: :pray
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Weather looks (well sounds) really nice, should be a very nice touch to the event. :aok
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Any way to get a comparison with the conditions for North Sea as a frame of reference?
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Let me check with Nefarious. If you are talking about Cruel Sea I just went and checked the original write up for the event and it had visibility at 17 miles.
A sector is 25 miles. Half a sector is 12.5 miles. So basically in the first frame of Aleutians you have 1/4 sector visibility. If Cruel Sea was 17 miles .. then your visibility is 1/3rd of what it was in that event. But I need to go double check that since Breaking the Siege also said 17 miles visibility. Not sure if they just forgot to change it on the write up or not.
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Weather conditions will be finalized tonight. Dux is setting up the clouds for me. They might differ than what I originally wanted for various reasons.
So it will visibility might be from 6 to 8 miles. So 1/3rd to 1/2th the visibility in Cruel Sea (Nefarious confirmed Cruel Sea was at 17 miles).
The clouds are the question .. they won't be as in your face as Cruel sea but depending on a few things they might be lower than 15K.
Will have it finalized tonight and sent out with the objectives based on the 11/2007 Aleutians terrain that you can only get by going into the Arena that has the Aleutians terrain loaded.
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Historically they had 4 years to find and kill each other. In this game we have under 2 hours. Reducing all visibility may seem cool, but when no action is had in the first 70 minutes, folks are going to start getting pissed, and maybe not come back for the next 2 frames.
The point is to cater to combat. Whatever the combat type. Having fog at 6 miles and such terrible weather "just for the sake of it" is doing so at the expense of gameplay, and IMO is a step in the wrong direction.
My 2 cents.
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Historically they had 4 years to find and kill each other. In this game we have under 2 hours. Reducing all visibility may seem cool, but when no action is had in the first 70 minutes, folks are going to start getting pissed, and maybe not come back for the next 2 frames.
The point is to cater to combat. Whatever the combat type. Having fog at 6 miles and such terrible weather "just for the sake of it" is doing so at the expense of gameplay, and IMO is a step in the wrong direction.
My 2 cents.
Visibility is easy and quick to change, we could even change it during the frame, it only takes seconds. I am sure things will be adjusted as necessary.
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I for one have enjoyed the weather in cruel seas. I believe it builds more of a wingman and instrument flying aspect of the game. Can't wait <S>.
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Weather has been modified to visibility of 8 miles with clouds up around 13K. But it is also about strategy, tactics, teamwork, historical match ups (or pseudo historical match ups) and fighting in historical terrains, etc.
Weather is a part of this. Weather has been used before even to the point in the past of having visibility down to 9 miles (albeit with no clouds). The clouds are being used to simulate not only the weather but also was the reason that much of the fighting and bombing was done at lower altitudes. People should not be able to bomb from 20K to 25K up. Fighting should be in the teens.
Plus, as the email I sent out to all squad COs and XOs the event is going to hinge on team work, not only with your squad but other with other squads. Also the effective use of scouts and pickets.
Overall you will have half the visibility of Cruel sea but there will be no low clouds.
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Historically they had 4 years to find and kill each other. In this game we have under 2 hours. Reducing all visibility may seem cool, but when no action is had in the first 70 minutes, folks are going to start getting pissed, and maybe not come back for the next 2 frames.
Ya they would be pissed. So would I, but let me point out the obvious. If we did not have any action for 70 minutes it would have nothing to do with the weather conditions.
FSO is designed for everyone to see action and always has been. Everyone has targets to defend or to attack. If you are where you are supposed to be you will see action unless:
- We have a squad that is a no show.
- We have a squad wiped out before they can reach their target.
- We have a squad defending a target that is taken out by an advance force and the 2nd wave never sees an enemy.
I don't see the low visibility being an issue unless your out scouting who knows where and no where around what is being attacked and defended.
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The weather played more of a part in this conflict then we will be giving it tonight. That said maybe it needed to be stepped up a notch & not down played & just maybe the Japanese forces needed to face P40E's (as it really happened). I'm a friggen bank of worthless knowledge on this battle...
My Grandfather is coming over for the night just to watch me fly in this one :) He was there for the whole dam battle I have heard nothing but story's about this my entire life :)
Maybe he will be a tad let down after I get shot down shortly after merge then again I can clam that this is a game....
Anyway this turns out I'm so thrilled we are going to run this event! I've waited so long for an Alaskan front event!
MGD
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In the initial attacks and invasion of Attu and Kiska most of the U.S. fighter forces were P40s.
- 18th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 28th Composite Group (Anchorage)
- 54th Fighter Squadron, 55th Fighter Group, Anchorage
- 11th Fighter Squadron, 28th Composite Group (Unmak)
I could go on but you get the picture. From reasearch while there were some P38s present in June 1942 the bulk of forces down in the islands seemed to be P40s. I wasn't able to nail down which model though. So for game play reasons I decided for the intitial invasion to P40Bs for various reasons. Also I thought it possible the initial P40s could have been Bs, Cs, or Ds .. (came across a reference of a recovered D plus a Canadian squad being equipped with KittyHawks which is the D model I believe).
So as I said for various game play reasons in frame 1 I went with the B model. Now depending on how things go tonight I will decide if the Allies should upgrade to the E model or not.
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The weather played more of a part in this conflict then we will be giving it tonight. That said maybe it needed to be stepped up a notch & not down played & just maybe the Japanese forces needed to face P40E's (as it really happened). I'm a friggen bank of worthless knowledge on this battle...
My Grandfather is coming over for the night just to watch me fly in this one :) He was there for the whole dam battle I have heard nothing but story's about this my entire life :)
Maybe he will be a tad let down after I get shot down shortly after merge then again I can clam that this is a game....
Anyway this turns out I'm so thrilled we are going to run this event! I've waited so long for an Alaskan front event!
MGD
MGD,
That is the coolest thing I have read on these boards in quite some time. Having someone who was there sit next to you while we do this is mind blowing. I hope he enjoys it and you must post any comments he has for the rest of us to enjoy please.
Tell your Grandfather that I am grateful for his sacrifices and am very jealous that I cant be in the room with you both to get his reactions to the FSO and how it compares to actual events.
You have to share this with us......PLEASE!
Your a very lucky guy to have him.
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ImOutFishing.....I would love to hear is opinon on Kermits film as well.
Strip(er)
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That is very kewl having a person who actually flew up there besides you while flying. Hopefully the weather will be a gray and dingy as he remembers. ;)
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15mph is a light breeze. Increase the wind!
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Well wind is only being used above 15K to encourage people to fly at lower alts (if the clouds and fog wasn't enough).
So okay .. 215 mph above 15K! muhahahahaha
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I'd like to restate my comments about weather and eye candy at the expense of gameplay.
The reason the axis were able to get in and smash a54 (or was it 52??) with 30-50 planes almost unhindered is because we could barely see each other, let alone be spotted by the enemy. We flew a long course, climbed to staggered heights, and only as we were dropping bombs did we really see any enemy. And THEY were too scatered and few to put up a fight.
Seems most of the P40s were searching for us, spread so thin any that found us were killed instantly.
Not conducive to a good gameplay, IMO. Maybe cool, maybe neat, maybe worthy of an "ooh" and an "ahh" but it still prevents both sides from finding and fighting each other, and in the past the FSO has taken steps to ensure this doesn't happen.
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I would say a stronger wind layer above 14k is needed. I know our squad stuck within the designers frame of 0 to 15k for alt, but reading that the axis purposely flew at 20k to not be seen makes me think the wind needs to be more severe up there. I love the weather and its ability to keep the fight low. I personally had no problems seeing enemy dots at 7,8k away when we were in the 10 to 15k range. The clouds provide excellent cover, but I think if the axis want to play hide-n-seek in the clouds we should definitely up the wind levels.
The clouds are there to frame the fights and keep the action lower. The fog is there to provide some lower alt cover / obscurity. Hard to hit a CV if you can't see it. Both of these are great additions and will stay. It is up to the players and squads to decide how to use the tools they have at their disposal. The mission of FSO is to destroy the enemy and RTB. Not destroy the enemy and die in the process. Or at least that's how I've looked at it.
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Your opinion has been noted and I respectfully disagree.
Having unlimited visibility and no weather was not the case in quite bit of actual warfare on all fronts. The FSO is not about endless combat. As stated it is about dealing with a whole range of situations and factors to accomplish your sides mission.
These include having to make choices of where and how to deploy your limited resources (pilots), your over all strategy (on the Allied side the CiC chose not to deploy any pickets or scouts at all in his battle plan but relied on other tactics for his defense .. which is his prerogative), tactics, group cohesion, etc.
The objectives for both sides are known and as Daddog stated it has been setup that there will be fighting. The strategy and tactics dictate on whether you find and hit the incoming attack force before, during, or after they drop their bombs.
Also note the weather cuts but ways and the Japanese CV and CA at C77 were both hit and sunk by the allied strike uncontested. Basically the strike group flanked the Japanese defenders and ran across the CV before the enemy Zeroes could get vector in and attack (although the allied force was found by a lone B5N2 but I think it was to late).
The Zeroes hit the B25Cs and P40Bs after they dropped and there was running fight over the CV and egress.
Personally I believe two other factors played a greater part in the way the battles turned out.
- Distance
- Fuel rate
The distances involved and the fuel rate reduced the amount of time squads had over targets and also basically prevented second strikes on targets do to the low speed of the planes and distances involved.
The fuel rate for Frame 2 has been reduced to 1.0 (which should give people more time over target and more time to fight instead of having to break off do to fuel concerns), and the targets have been moved closer by about 25 miles from each sides launch bases / carriers. That should also help things and give both sides more time to accomplish missions and fight instead of traveling to and from targets and have very short time frames for engaging enemy do to fuel and time concerns.
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Point taken on the wind. It will be increase significantly at higher alts since the event was designed to be low to mid alt. This of course will also effect the allies in frame 2 since they also have a land target to hit.
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On the other hand, considering the overwhelming vulnerability of the Vals and Kates the weather was a godsend, and gave them an actual fighting chance. It would have taken VERY effective escort to prevent a well-handled Allied CAP from tearing the bombers to shreds otherwise.
I, for one, am NOT complaining. After having the poor visibility working AGAINST my squad effectively the entirety of the last campaign, it was a refreshing change of pace to be able to use the weather to our advantage and slip past the Allied defenses.
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And the allies did at least in the case C77 slipped past the Axis defenses. Not only did the zekes not engage in time to stop the B25C drop but the fleet also didn't start maneuvering in time.
So the weather cuts both ways.
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It seems to me that past rules (the 60 minute rule) are designed to get forces to engage each other, rather than avoid the fight. The 60 minute rule (target must be attacked by T+60) prevents evasive stuff like NOE sneaks that take 1.5 hours or delaying until all the defenders have left the area.
What is the difference with excessive weather?
I get that it's a cool visual. IF you have an ATI card. Those with nvida are screwed, it seems. I get that it's nice to have something other than high noon like most of AH.
But I see it as detrimental. I didn't have much fun. Was mostly a milk run. I hadn't landed a single 20mm on enemies so I wasted 'em just for the sake of not RTBing with full guns.
I guess I just see enough attempts of that in the MAs to not want to see it in the SEA.
Clearly a differing of opinions, though.
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Yes clearly a difference of opinion on the affects of weather and whether it promotes MA style game play or not.
Obviously we are not going to see to eye on this so I will just end by saying I am sorry that in your case you did not find frame 1 or this event enjoyable.