Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Xargos on March 16, 2008, 05:10:32 PM
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The conviction of a Wisconsin gun owner is stirring up gun advocates.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/03/13/ldt.tucker.govt.guns.cnn
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Wow, that's pretty screwed up.
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Thats Dirty. Someone saw it Slamfire, or Misfeed at the range and went to the authorities, Perhaps an off duty LEO saw him do it. Makes me a little sketchy to bring out my AK to the public ranges around my area. The first time I had it at a public range, the owner swarmed me and was a little peeved that I was shooting it so rapid. He wanted me to slow down :lol
Better off going to private land to shoot nowadays. :noid
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Convict all participating ATF members of treason in violation of second amendment. Problem solved.
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You guys sound like a bunch of liberals, you against law enforcement or something? :lol
Zero tolerance is very popular these days.
shamus
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Wow..The guy fires off 800 rounds and the gun missfires and fires 2 rounds and jams on the thirdd? They wanna burn a guy with 16 years in the service and no record?Sure this isnt in Berkley? WTF :furious
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You guys sound like a bunch of liberals, you against law enforcement or something? :lol
Zero tolerance is very popular these days.
shamus
I'm for enforcing laws that don't violate the constitution. I hope we see challenges of unconstitutional laws once the SC backs up the intent of the writers of our constitution. I believe it's a violation of our constitutional rights to ban personal ownership of automatic weapons.
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IMO the ATF should have been dissolved after the massacre in Waco.
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I'm for enforcing laws that don't violate the constitution. I hope we see challenges of unconstitutional laws once the SC backs up the intent of the writers of our constitution. I believe it's a violation of our constitutional rights to ban personal ownership of automatic weapons.
The article up on Drudge says that there will be a ruling on the DC case this week. However, I don't know if this is right.
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He needs to go to the ACLU. Maybe if the ACLU is truly about our Constitutional protection they will get a ton of publicity on this case and get the charges reversed.
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Perhaps its not without a sense of irony that the city name is Berlin. BATFE is a first to go on my list of alpha bet soup agencies.
Am I the only one who thinks this country is headed to another civil war or revolt in the next 20-30 years?
Strip(er)
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5.
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Lou Dobbs covered the story today like a red blooded advocate of the NRA or something......
Anyway...something in the story just didnt seem right to me. Like there was something not being mentioned....I dunno.
Should be intersting to find out how it turns out for the guy.
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It sounds like its all over and he pled to a charge.
I'm sure the feds came in and told him if he didn't plead guilty he would do the 10 years, as any defense lawyer worth his salt knows, if offered a plea in a federal charge, you better take it because if you turn it down they get pissed off and will get the conviction 99+% of the time.
shamus
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IMO the ATF should have been dissolved after the massacre in Waco.
Should have been dissolved after Ruby Ridge.
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FWIW, the govt of Wisconsin is very anti-gun. There was a CCW law that passed easily in their congress but the Governor vetoed it. You would be hard pressed to find a more anti-gun place in the US... except maybe for Cook county IL.
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And that just amazes me, Steve. It seems like that state should be one of the least restrictive. I guess it only takes a few wackos to attain power and screw everything up for the normal people.
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Guess I should go turn myself in. I've had my Bushmaster M4 go rock and roll on me before. Kinda happens when those things get hot and dirty from that many rounds being fired out of them. Rounds can start to cook off all on their own when the conditions are right.
His best defense is going to be challenging the prosecuter to take that gun to the range and make it happen again. 100 to 1 it doesn't and if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.
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Nased on the article there is no offense committed as charged. To have a transfer the weapon must have changed ownership. There is nothing in the film to confirm it had been sold. A malfunction is not a conversion of a weapon in violation of the weapons codes. A conversion is the willfull manipulation of the firearm to convert it to full auto. There is something very smelly in this case and I'm not sure what it is. I find it hard to believe that a jury would convict a person of something like this absent any intent or deliberate manipulation of the owner to modify the gun.
There is one thing to do in this case and that is to not loan out a semi auto weapon to anyone.
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And that just amazes me, Steve. It seems like that state should be one of the least restrictive. I guess it only takes a few wackos to attain power and screw everything up for the normal people.
As an example of this Nuke, a full 78% of Wisconsin population wants CCW... yet the Governor still vetoed it. Their Capital, Madison, is overrun w/ nutjob Liberals who do things their way, regardless of how the general populace votes.
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What the... what kind of a genius considers an AR-15 an automatic weapon?
It will occasionally double-tap after extended use, from the heat, from wearing down the sear, too much lubricant, and from chucking a good several hundred or even a couple thousand rounds through it. The M-16 series was designed from the start as fully automatic, and that flaw carries over slightly to the AR-15. Anyone who knows anything about it knows the AR-15 isn't a full-auto gun. One look at the sear from any half-decent forensics lab and you can tell that it just needs a part replaced, if the weapon is not intentionaly turned full auto than its not a machinegun. Hell our AR-15 does that on occasion, and I'm damn sure the M4 I'm getting this summer will do that too after extended use. Last time I checked and forgive me if my info is out of date me just being AROTC and all, but a machinegun was a fully-automatic belt-fed rifle usually mounted on a bipod or tripod man-portable or crew-served and vehicle mounted designed to engage and suppress infantry at ranges from point-blank to nearly 800+ meters depending on the gun in question and point/area targets.
I'm trying to figure out who rigged the jury? 'cause only a bunch of stoned teenagers or ultra-liberal moon-bats could convict a man off the evidence from that video.
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A machine gun (or fully automatic weapon) by ATF standards is any gun that fires more than one bullet for every trigger pull.
I have had a Ruger 10-22 blast 20 rounds off due to a broke firing pin. Its a 1 in 100,000 chance but evidently its enough to get a conviction.
I shot IPSC and IDPA alot and have seen a handful of similar situations with pistols. My cousin, who was 8 at the time, used to limp wrist a Ruger target pistol. When the gun fired he would pull down to counter the recoil and pull the trigger again. The end result was a double tap so fast that you would swear it was a two round burst setup. We taught him the right way for safety and proper mechanics after that. However not knowing what was going on I can only imagine what it would look like to a federal screwball.
Makes me wonder what would happen if these people were to see anything like this.
BTW its not ATF (Alchohol, Tobacco and Firearms) anymore. The new designation is BATFE (Bureau of Alchohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Expolsives).
<S> Strip(er)
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How can a person get convicted due to a malfunction? If they can't prove any illegal modification that should never pass in court.
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I am sure that an organization as dedicated to individual rights as the ACLU will be all over this case right?
I think you guys are just being paranoid... no one in black ninja outfits are coming in the middle of the night to take your guns unless you are a scum bag like this machine gun owner with a history of... of.. well.. liking guns and stuff.
lazs
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Well seems he got nailed on a legal technicality. Transfering a machine gun. First he should be smacked for loaning a gun to anyone! I own several and i do not loan them to anyone to shoot unless i'm standing right next to them! The fact that the gun malfunctioned and if they can back it up with actual manufactuers tests should clear him of the machine gun charge if he never modified it. Tranfering is what is getting him in trouble as you don't actually need to sell the gun to be guilty. If i hand you my pistol, i've just tranferred it to you, but i am still responsible for that pistol. Seems to me he made a mistake and the FEDS are making an example out of him. Then again if his buddy would have gone on a shooting spree what do you think would have happened? Plain and simple Don't Loan Guns!!
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Should have been dissolved after Ruby Ridge.
I believe Ruby Ridge was the FBI
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I believe Ruby Ridge was the FBI
FBI and U.S. Marshals Service.
All interchangable.
You`ve seen one tax man you`ve seen em all.
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Lou Dobbs covered the story today like a red blooded advocate of the NRA or something......
Anyway...something in the story just didnt seem right to me. Like there was something not being mentioned....I dunno.
Should be intersting to find out how it turns out for the guy.
Agree completely. Something is missing from this story.
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It sounds like its all over and he pled to a charge.
I'm sure the feds came in and told him if he didn't plead guilty he would do the 10 years, as any defense lawyer worth his salt knows, if offered a plea in a federal charge, you better take it because if you turn it down they get pissed off and will get the conviction 99+% of the time.
shamus
That's the true tragedy of our justice system.. Regardless, of it's about guns or anything else. It's sad that our legal system has gotten to a point that "pleading guilty" is the best option to stay out of jail in a case that most likely no crime was committed.
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How can a person get convicted due to a malfunction? If they can't prove any illegal modification that should never pass in court.
In the US today, it does not matter if you are guilty or innocent, if some judge feels like they want to push a message, and the feds involved decide they want to as well, then you are guilty in their eyes. Add to that a jury that has no clue, and you get manufactured justice.
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I am sure that an organization as dedicated to individual rights as the ACLU will be all over this case right?
As I mentioned previously, the ACLU should be all over this case, but, seeings that the ACLU only cares for a liberal agenda, they will conveniently ignore this case.
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There is one thing to do in this case and that is to not loan out a semi auto weapon to anyone.
Exactly. :aok
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As I mentioned previously, the ACLU should be all over this case, but, seeings that the ACLU only cares for a liberal agenda, they will conveniently ignore this case.
If the guy had been shooting Christians with the rifle they would have leapt to his defense. ;)
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That is hardly the ACLU's position:
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html
If indeed the Second Amendment provides an absolute, constitutional protection for the right to bear arms in order to preserve the power of the people to resist government tyranny, then it must allow individuals to possess bazookas, torpedoes, SCUD missiles and even nuclear warheads, for they, like handguns, rifles and M-16s, are arms. Moreover, it is hard to imagine any serious resistance to the military without such arms. Yet few, if any, would argue that the Second Amendment gives individuals the unlimited right to own any weapons they please. But as soon as we allow governmental regulation of any weapons, we have broken the dam of Constitutional protection. Once that dam is broken, we are not talking about whether the government can constitutionally restrict arms, but rather what constitutes a reasonable restriction.
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Well, if it is the position of the ACLU, then why aren't they jumping all over this?
This is cut and dry, how he got convicted is beyond me... seems to me that he got bad advice from his attorney and took a plea deal in the hopes he will not go to jail.
As for the ACLU's position:
Yet few, if any, would argue that the Second Amendment gives individuals the unlimited right to own any weapons they please.
I believe I should be able to own any weapon I choose. Whether it be a bazooka, MX missile, 18 inch battleship gun, or any other weapon. I feel the same way as do most of the gun club I am in (1000 members).
So, right off the bat, their (the ACLU's position) is flawed in that few people feel that way.
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That is hardly the ACLU's position:
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html
The ACLU's position is one of those gun control positions that may soon be blown out of the water. Will they revise their position once the SC officiallly clarifies the 2nd Amendment? I believe that to the contrary, they will work harder than ever to have that clarification reversed, by supporting the effort to eventually install all liberal judges on the SC.
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Here was the guys mistake. He had an Olympic Arms built AR-15. Low end AR-15s that most of the AR junkies won't go anywhere near.
Based on the coverage it's getting, I'd guess this one will go away on the pure silliness of it. There is no logic behind it.
And mine are DPMS and Bushmaster ARs :)
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As I mentioned previously, the ACLU should be all over this case, but, seeings that the ACLU only cares for a liberal agenda, they will conveniently ignore this case.
ACLU has a lot of cases they "should" be involved in. But one question.. Where is the NRA in this? Why is the NRA not jumping to the guns to help this guy out?
IMO you guys missed the real problem.. it doesn't matter if it's about guns or not. He plead guilty wasn't "convicted of being guilty" don't think anyone is going to stand up to protect him now. The real problem is that he felt that his best option was to plead guilty. That is the real problem in this case and so many others.
Real Justice is no longer served in this country.
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IMO you guys missed the real problem.. it doesn't matter if it's about guns or not. He plead guilty wasn't "convicted of being guilty" don't think anyone is going to stand up to protect him now. The real problem is that he felt that his best option was to plead guilty. That is the real problem in this case and so many others.
You nor I do not know the circumstances of why he plead guilty or not. Maybe his attorney is a tool and recommended it? Maybe he had a public defender.... Maybe the government so screwed with his head and had him believing he was going to spend the rest of his life in jail that he felt he had no other recourse but to not go to jail.
Too many what ifs...
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The NRA stated they will not get involved unless they are invited. They are watching the case.
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IMO the ATF should have been dissolved after the massacre in Waco.
Massacre?? There were police there asking the folks to come out. They refused to come out. Smoke was used because the individuals refused. Fire started from the smoke grenades. People still chose to stay in the fire and would not release their kids. Seems to me a bunch of uncaring fanatics chose to kill thierselves and their kids.
Of course someone opposed to law & order might see it different. Bottom line... those folks had all the chances to come out.
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Massacre?? There were police there asking the folks to come out. They refused to come out. Smoke was used because the individuals refused. Fire started from the smoke grenades. People still chose to stay in the fire and would not release their kids. Seems to me a bunch of uncaring fanatics chose to kill thierselves and their kids.
Of course someone opposed to law & order might see it different. Bottom line... those folks had all the chances to come out.
Not only did the police have no standing or reason to do what they did to the Branch Davidians, they machine gunned them down as they tried to flee the fire.
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Massacre?? There were police there asking the folks to come out. They refused to come out. Smoke was used because the individuals refused. Fire started from the smoke grenades. People still chose to stay in the fire and would not release their kids. Seems to me a bunch of uncaring fanatics chose to kill thierselves and their kids.
Of course someone opposed to law & order might see it different. Bottom line... those folks had all the chances to come out.
Have you watched Waco: the Rules of Engagement? http://www.waco93.com/
If not, you should. Changed my perspective.
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I am sure that an organization as dedicated to individual rights as the ACLU will be all over this case right?
I think you guys are just being paranoid... no one in black ninja outfits are coming in the middle of the night to take your guns unless you are a scum bag like this machine gun owner with a history of... of.. well.. liking guns and stuff.
lazs
:noid :rofl :rofl :noid :O :pray :eek: :frown: :uhoh it will happen just like that :rofl
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bazookas, torpedoes, SCUD missiles and even nuclear warheads, for they, like handguns, rifles and M-16s, are arms.
Typical ACLU. The definition of arms in colonial times did not include anything beyond the normal solider's equipment. That is to say things like rifles, pistols, bayonets, knives, etc.
Grenades, as in Grenadier troops, were classed as ordnance as were cannons.
The 2nd covers arms, not ordnance.
Sorry to bust a few bubbles.
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Massacre?? There were police there asking the folks to come out. They refused to come out. Smoke was used because the individuals refused. Fire started from the smoke grenades. People still chose to stay in the fire and would not release their kids. Seems to me a bunch of uncaring fanatics chose to kill thierselves and their kids.
Of course someone opposed to law & order might see it different. Bottom line... those folks had all the chances to come out.
i hate to say you are uninformed, but you are, Massacre is exactly what happened.
but no our government would'nt do that!
ha what a joke this contry has lost its freedoms long ago, about when the government bamboozled the population into believing the federal reserve bank was voted into place. face it America is not what its sapposed to be...
but hey we got are flat screen tvs, our big houses, fast cars, we must be free.
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There were several good documentaries made on the waco disaster.. they showed FLIR and interviewed the guy who invented it.
the thing was.. there were no illegal weapons found after it was all over.. even if they had.. was it worth 28 childrens lives and all the adults? Not to me. I won't have children butchered in my name because someone didn't pay a tax (maybe) on a firearm.
In the end.. before the last assault on the building... the excuse was that they had to save the children from being molested. no mention of guns at that point.. no machine gun fire ever came from the "compound" but plenty went into it.. with little kids in there. Why was the press not allowed to be near the whole thing?
Even klinton said it was the worst spot on his record.
Reagan tried to disband the ATF back when.. he was told union rules said you couldn't lay em off.. he tried to absorb them into the other agencies.. no other agency wanted them..
lazs
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I saw: Waco: Rules of Engagement recently. Very enlightening.
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the main thing is proving that the gun that did it malifunctioned. AR rifles tend to start looking the same.
Thats just rediculous though. I have a AR7 survival .22 that does that sometimes, but thats just cause its 25 years old and has have a rough life.
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I saw: Waco: Rules of Engagement recently. Very enlightening.
I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things and breaking the law. Is the govt just supposed to ignore it?
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I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things
Such as?
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There were several good documentaries made on the waco disaster.. they showed FLIR and interviewed the guy who invented it.
the thing was.. there were no illegal weapons found after it was all over.. even if they had.. was it worth 28 childrens lives and all the adults? Not to me. I won't have children butchered in my name because someone didn't pay a tax (maybe) on a firearm.
In the end.. before the last assault on the building... the excuse was that they had to save the children from being molested. no mention of guns at that point.. no machine gun fire ever came from the "compound" but plenty went into it.. with little kids in there. Why was the press not allowed to be near the whole thing?
Even klinton said it was the worst spot on his record.
Reagan tried to disband the ATF back when.. he was told union rules said you couldn't lay em off.. he tried to absorb them into the other agencies.. no other agency wanted them..
lazs
my opinion...which is by no means any more informed than anyone else: Since there were children in the compound, as soon as there were shots fired from inside they should have treated the situation similar to a hostage situation. They should have backed off and laid siege to the compound. I'd guess... just a guess, that people would start coming out once they got hungry enough.
I cannot imagine firing 100's of rounds into a building that housed so many children. I think the ATF wanted payback for their comrades who were shot in the initial exchange.
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I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things and breaking the law. Is the govt just supposed to ignore it?
I don't think anyone is saying the Davidian's were innocent but the fact remains it was the Govt's actions that caused the deaths of all those people.
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my opinion...which is by no means any more informed than anyone else: Since there were children in the compound, as soon as there were shots fired from inside they should have treated the situation similar to a hostage situation. They should have backed off and laid siege to the compound. I'd guess... just a guess, that people would start coming out once they got hungry enough.
I cannot imagine firing 100's of rounds into a building that housed so many children. I think the ATF wanted payback for their comrades who were shot in the initial exchange.
As evidenced when they ran the ATF flag up the pole in front of the burned out building and bodies.
They were already ahead at the beginning with kills at 6-4. I guess they weren't satisfied until everyone was dead.
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As evidenced when they ran the ATF flag up the pole in front of the burned out building and bodies.
They were already ahead at the beginning with kills at 6-4. I guess they weren't satisfied until everyone was dead.
It is a really bad idea to raise your hand against Caesar.
shamus
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I think we would all agree that the last thing in the world we would want to see is 28 children burned to death, much less the adults killed.. over something as silly and inconsequential as a firearms violation..
to me.. that is the point.. the whole ATF thing is using a 20 lb sledge hammer to kill a knat.. the problem being that the knat has landed on a human being.
It is rare in the extreme that the brutality and degredation caused by the ATF really nets any truly evil and dangerous people..
It may be true that something is being left out of this case but... what could be the reason for ninjas breaking in the door in the wee hours of the morning... pointing machine guns at the bleary residents who have no criminal background? how dangerous do you have to be to deserve this kind of treatment?
Like waco.. they coulda just knocked on the door and showed the warant.
lazs
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There is more than enough blame to go around on both sides of the Waco situation. Be that as it may, I think continuing that discussion is a bit of a departure from the original thread.
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mav.. be that as it may...
I don't think any of us would like to have a wee hours of the morning visit by the ATF ninja squad as they broke down the door and pointed machine guns at us and the family (while stomping our kittens) because... well.. one of our firearms was not quite up to snuff.
I think that part is definently a part of this thread. It is not that we think this is possible.. it is that this kind of thing happens far too frequently.. far far too.
I would fault no one if the local sheriff had come to the guys door with a warrant.
lazs
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mav.. be that as it may...
I don't think any of us would like to have a wee hours of the morning visit by the ATF ninja squad as they broke down the door and pointed machine guns at us and the family (while stomping our kittens) because... well.. one of our firearms was not quite up to snuff.
I think that part is definently a part of this thread. It is not that we think this is possible.. it is that this kind of thing happens far too frequently.. far far too.
I would fault no one if the local sheriff had come to the guys door with a warrant.
lazs
The sad and frightening thing is that kicking down someone's door in the middle of the night would result in the homeowner getting killed sometimes instead of taken off to jail if the Sherriff merely tried to serve a warrant.
I know that I would be killed. I would not be willing to put down my arms if I heard the door get kicked in. I wouldn't be willing to risk the life of my children in the event that the home invaders were not actually LE. I would, however, risk my own that they were telling the truth. They would be met with a barrage of gunfire from upstairs. No doubt I'd be killed but if they were cops, my kids would probably be safe. I would not allow myself to be disarmed under a kick-in-the-door and charge scenario, since there would be no time to positively identify the invaders. Anyone can yell "police!"
For this same reason, I have instructed my wife to never pull over her vehicle for an unmarked car. She's instructed to continue driving and wait for a standard LE vehicle to join.
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Have you watched Waco: the Rules of Engagement? http://www.waco93.com/
If not, you should. Changed my perspective.
I do not get my info from movies. The branch divideans were a problem that needed to be dealt with. They were not machine gunned.... they pretty much commited suicide. They had a choice and they made it. The first shots were fired from inside and at identified police. While it is never good for children to die.... their parents obviously did not care enough about them and put them in harms way.
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Such as?
They had automatic weapons or at least that was the info the ATF has at the time. That and the Karush guy was a child molester. Not to menton, they could have ended the whole thing at any time by just coming out.
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They had automatic weapons or at least that was the info the ATF has at the time. That and the Karush guy was a child molester. Not to menton, they could have ended the whole thing at any time by just coming out.
The ATF later admitted to fabricating the child molester charges to get Reno's approval to go in guns blazing. The Branch Davidians also admitted the local police several times under normal warrants to look for the automatic weapons.
The ATF just wanted them to submit to government rule.
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What's funny in this thread is I see that those usually decrying a "police state" RE: GWB so called new policies are the same ones defending the govt and the ATF and ultimately the slaughter of innocent woman and children. It's funny how there's no compassion when it happens on American soil to actual Americans.
EDIT:
The point being there's been numerous threads and articles about the abuses of the ATF that it should bring to light all the abuses by the BATF. But of course the libs want to say that the 2nd amendment is a state issue so who cares about the constituition or those who suffer from it's brutality.
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I do not get my info from movies. The branch divideans were a problem that needed to be dealt with. They were not machine gunned.... they pretty much commited suicide. They had a choice and they made it. The first shots were fired from inside and at identified police. While it is never good for children to die.... their parents obviously did not care enough about them and put them in harms way.
Sorry...you are a koolaid consuming nut, "my government right or wrong" is quite dangerous.
shamus
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That is insane :furious
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They had a choice and they made it. The first shots were fired from inside and at identified police. While it is never good for children to die.... their parents obviously did not care enough about them and put them in harms way
soooo it was ok to attack the house full of children? Tell me, what would have been wrong with waiting them out? Letting their food run out?
How could that have been worse than the historical end result?
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The ATF later admitted to fabricating the child molester charges to get Reno's approval to go in guns blazing. The Branch Davidians also admitted the local police several times under normal warrants to look for the automatic weapons.
The ATF just wanted them to submit to government rule.
I just watched a show the other day on the issue and there was one of the survivors doing a interview. Was a young women whom was a teenage girl at the time and was one of the girls he tried to have sex with. She said it in the interview even years later, that he had or tried to have sex with many of the underage girls. He considered it as his right for being a "prophet".
Now I still think the ATF screwed the whole deal up, I mean hell they should have just picked him up when he was out in a public place, then tried to serve the warrant to search the place. However just because they screwed up doesnt mean the Branch Dravidian's were any less at fault.
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They had automatic weapons or at least that was the info the ATF has at the time.
No illegal weapons were found.
That and the Karush guy was a child molester. Not to menton, they could have ended the whole thing at any time by just coming out.
And the ATF murdered said children.
Not to menton, they could have ended the whole thing at any time by just coming out.
They were residents that the ATF had nothing on then or now.
The whole thing, as you put it, was not needed to begin with. It was supposed to be a media stunt to boast the ATF stance. It went very wrong for them.
If ATF or and law enforcement wanted Koresh for questioning or arrest on some trumped up charge, he had a pretty set schedule outside of the Davidian property. He went to a local lumber yard on the same day every week and nearly scheduled enough to set your watch by. He could have been picked up easily at any time. That wasn`t what this was about by a long shot.
The local Sheriff had been in the Davidian house and on the property many times and had a standing invitation until they were attacked. He could have served any warrant, at any time, without trouble.
I use the word attacked because that is just how this was carried out. A military style attack on private property......right here in the U.S.
This was certainly not the first time, and it want be the last.
A government sniper shooting a teenage boy in the back got my attention pretty well, along with shooting a mother holding a child.
Tell you what, watch the interview with the man who was one of the main developers and inventors of FLIR.
Watch the FLIR videos...then come back and tell me the ATF wasn`t murdering people.
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my point is that there is no reason for anyone to kill those children. My point is that agencies that are rogue like the ATF are making situations far worse than they need to be.
As was pointed out.. the local authorities were invited several times to come and search the church for any illegal.. well illegal anything...
I see no reason to create the home breaking and dangerous atmosphere that the showboating ninjas do. At least not in cases of normally law abiding citizens with families...
Why do we not see the ATF doing their raids in Compton? are they saying that there are no illegal weapons in the gang strongholds? certainly there are real bad guys that such military tactics would be needed on.
seriously guys.. most of the stuff they send in the ninjas for could be handled by a pair of cops at the door with a warrant.
lazs