Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SIG220 on March 17, 2008, 07:52:40 PM
-
_____________________________ __________
A search has finally found the sunken remains of HMAS Sydney, the largest ship in Australia's Navy during WWII. At 7,300 tons, HMAS Sydney was also the largest ship in WII to sink with ZERO survivors.
She sank in battle with the German Raider DKM Kormoran, which was disguised as a Dutch merchant ship, in 1941. It has been theorized that the much more lightly armed German ship was able to lure the HMAS Sydney in close with its elaborate disguise, and then attacked with torpedoes, which devastated the ship. Before the Sydney sank, however, it managed enough hits with its guns on the DKM Kormoran to also sink it. But 73% of the DKM Kormoran's crew managed to get to lifeboats, and survived the battle.
Here is a photo of HMAS Sydney taken during WWII:
(http://www.naval-history.net/Photo06clSydney1NPBruceConstable.jpg)
And here is a sonar image showing her at the bottom of the ocean:
(http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/0d/07/20080317164809990022)
You are actually viewing the grave of 645 brave Australian sailors, which was the size of HMAS Sydney's crew.
Experts are hopeful that an inspection of the ship will finally shed some light on how such a more heavily armed ship was sunk in combat with an inferior opponent. Many historians have not trusted accounts by the German crew to be accurate. They claim that the DKM Kormoran raised its battle flag early on, properly identifying itself to the Australian ship.
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________
-
Q-ships' in the first world war were used to sink German U-boats' by posing as merchantmen, with their cannons' and other weapons hidden behind fake bulkheads and screens until the U-boat had surfaced (In the earlier part of the war, German U-boats would usually surface, and warn the crew of the merchantmen to get into the boats' before they sank the ship.) At that point, the guns' would be unscreened, and the suprised submarine sank on the surface.
-
I read this.. interesting news for sure.
-
Since she was last seen completely ablaze and by the looks of the sonar photo I'd say the fire finally got to a magazine and blew her in half. This has always been a fascinating story to me.
-
They probably lured them in with offers of sheep and beer.
-
The Beer would've been enough...the sheep was just in case it was a Kiwi ship!
Great news indeed about the Sydney - hopefully the mystery of her last valiant fight may be finally be discovered
Tronsky
-
http://www.webatomics.com/jason/Images/LastFightSydney.pdf
Good read of the encounter.
-
The history of HSK Kormoran: http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/kormoran.html
-
_____________________________ ________________
Something dramatic must have definitely happened very quickly, for the crew of the Sydney to not have launched any lifeboats.
Sounds like Captain Burnett totally blew it here in this encounter. He fell for the German ruse, and exposed his ship to great danger. And then failed to successfully deal with the damage done to the ship.
Although, if these German accounts are true, then perhaps all of the senior commanders ( including Burnett ) on the Sydney were dead by then. The ship could have been virtually leaderless, which might also account for why an order to abandon ship was never given.
Interesting that that one German 37mm AA gunner was awarded the Iron Cross for his skill during the battle. It was utterly ridiculous, though, that the Sydney got so close that those AA guns would play such a deadly role in the battle's outcome.
No doubt Burnett would have been court-martialed, if he had survived the battle.
_____________________________ ______
-
They probably lured them in with offers of sheep and beer.
Thats a pretty lunkhead comment. I hope your not an American, but you probably are. A Vulcan would never say anything disrespectful to the memory of hundreds of brave men who fought and died on the Sydney, "it would be to illogical". The Sydney has been a very emotional issue down under for a long, long time and an enduring WW-ll mystery. Imagine a version of the USS Indianapolis if nobody had survived the sharks???
<S> To their memories, their families, and to our allies. I hope nobody else posts stupid sheep comments in this thread.
-
<S> To their memories, their families, and to our allies. I hope nobody else posts stupid sheep comments in this thread.
The Aussie gun crews manning the two rear 6 inch turrets were incredible in this battle, as every other gun position on the Sydney was apparently wiped out very early in the engagement. So they had to fight the rest of the battle all on their own, and without any fire control orders either. Think how incredibly difficult that must have been for them.
The Kormoran almost pulled this ambush off successfully. And they would have, if it had not been for the men in those two rear 6 inch turrets on the Sydney managing to score vital hits on the Kormoran.
I will salute all of the crew of the Sydney, except for Captain Burnett. A Captain must be held responsible when his entire crew is lost.
<S> HMAS Sydney Crew
_____________________________ _____________________________
-
Something dramatic must have definitely happened very quickly, for the crew of the Sydney to not have launched any lifeboats.
Sounds like Captain Burnett totally blew it here in this encounter. He fell for the German ruse, and exposed his ship to great danger. And then failed to successfully deal with the damage done to the ship.
It sounds like the officers were first ones to lose their lives in the battle. It is wierd how none of the crew survived. The lack of lifeboats could be attributed to the same reason why Kormoran had to use overcrowded lifeboats. Many of the motorboats and lifeboats were consumed by fire and shrapnels. The biggest loss to the crew of Kormoran happened when one of the lifeboats capsized, although it was mostly filled with the injured.
It could be there wasn't anything for the Sydney's crew to hold on to after their ship sunk and they drowned. Or they were all killed and incapacitated. Combat ships are usually abandoned long before such heavy damage that Sydney received, but there was nobody to give the command. Usually when command to abandon ship hasn't been given there has been massive casualties.
-
A Vulcan would never say anything disrespectful to the memory of hundreds of brave men who fought and died on the Sydney, "it would be to illogical".
For future reference, when you introduce a fictional character from a rather geeky sci-fi series to support your argument, a certain amount of gravitas is lost.
Just an FYI.
Also, Vulcan is a New Zealander, and Aussie's are fair game in that part of the world.
-
<S> to the crew members lost. :salute
-
Thats a pretty lunkhead comment. I hope your not an American, but you probably are. A Vulcan would never say anything disrespectful to the memory of hundreds of brave men who fought and died on the Sydney, "it would be to illogical". The Sydney has been a very emotional issue down under for a long, long time and an enduring WW-ll mystery. Imagine a version of the USS Indianapolis if nobody had survived the sharks???
<S> To their memories, their families, and to our allies. I hope nobody else posts stupid sheep comments in this thread.
Its my right to mock australians, even in cases of war like this, in fact it is considered my national duty.
ps wrong sort of vulcan, and get over yourself.
-
<S> Believe me its just a relief to find out your not American. Go ahead, sheep away.
I look at it differently SIG. I look upon the German use of false colors as dishonorable and the crew of the Sidney, in the manner they fought back so courageously, as honorable. I hope nobody messes with the ship and they are allowed to rest in peace.
-
I look upon the German use of false colors as dishonorable and the crew of the Sidney, in the manner they fought back so courageously, as honorable.
The german crew did as they were ordered and it seems they did it with honor as far as they were permitted. It is the leaders on the top who are to blame for the operations under false flag. Many nations had ships operating under false flag, yet some of those are not only honorable, but heroes, while the others are dishonored. Either they are all honorable soldiers of their respective countries or they aren't. You can't simply draw a line to the honor depending on the nationality. It's the deeds that matter, was their mission executed honorably or not.
-
The german crew did as they were ordered and it seems they did it with honor as far as they were permitted. It is the leaders on the top who are to blame for the operations under false flag. Many nations had ships operating under false flag, yet some of those are not only honorable, but heroes, while the others are dishonored. Either they are all honorable soldiers of their respective countries or they aren't. You can't simply draw a line to the honor depending on the nationality. It's the deeds that matter, was their mission executed honorably or not.
My opinion? While I believe the Kriegsmarine was an honorable service I believe their use of false colors in disguised merchant killers as "dishonorable". Its true the Brits used it against German submarines "Q-ships" in WW-l but to the best of my knowledge none of the allied Navies used disguised merchant raiders to attack merchant shipping. And most certainly didn't use false colors along with it.
The Germans had about a dozen in WW-ll if I remember right. However I would say the Allies were correct in not executing the German merchant raiders that were captured. Were it the other way around I'll bet Hitler would have executed our sailors. Remember the fuss he made over the Brit commandos who fought in their own uniforms? I have no doubt the Nazis would have executed allied sailors if caught operating ships of this type under false colors.
The funny thing is that the crackpots who were running the Japanese and German Empires thought the sons of free peoples wouldnt fight with the type of courage as shown by the sailors of HMAS Sydney. Boy were they proven wrong.
-
Brits deployed the "Q-ships" also in the WWII against the U-boats, although unsuccesfully. False flag was often used to carry out special operations. The false flag may not been used directly to attack the enemy at sea, but it made it much more convenient to get through to the enemy target, which may not been possible without the transportation under false flag.
-
Fishu thanks for the Link, i just read this and i hope you dont mind posting some parts here,
if the source is true, its incredible what happened there that time. Fighting in war, from one second to another
it can become so gruelsome.
"Theodor Detmers was at the same time, the youngest and the lowest-ranked of all the Hilfskreuzer commanders.
His performance was not particularly outstanding, taking just 12 ships, totalling 75,375 tons, during 351 days at sea, but his last day afloat was the most glorious of all the Hilfskreuzer commanders, if not of all German naval commanders in WW2.
He took on a regular warship, the Australian Navy’s 6,830-ton Perth-class light cruiser, HMAS Sydney, sister-ship of the Ajax and Achilles, packing eight 6-inch guns and capable of a top speed of 32 knots … and sank her.
Without any doubt, his fate should have been the same as that meted out to the HK Pinguin six months earlier by HMS Cornwall, but, inexplicably, the Sydney’s commander, Captain Joseph Burnett, seemingly unaware of the lessons learned in that battle, closed the distance to the Kormoran to around 1,000 metres.
Clearly the Kormoran’s disguise was excellent, and the reply to the key question "Give me your secret identification code" like all the dialogue between the ships, was by flag, with continuous repetition due to the deliberate flag fumbling and the poor English of the supposed ‘Dutch’ skipper of the ‘Straat Malakka’.
Detmers was a master in the art of such time wasting, during which the cruiser moved ever closer, enabling him to open fire on her at almost point-blank range.
The Sydney suffered many hits even before the first full broadside from the raider’s main armament hit her.
The automatic fire from the Kormoran’s 37mm and 20mm guns and heavy machines-guns was devastating, killing everybody on the bridge and decks, setting the Walrus seaplane on fire on its catapult, where it sat, engine running, but not ready for launching due to the catapult being trained inboard, and destroying all the lifeboats and rafts.
Seconds later, a torpedo struck the Sydney below the forecastle, taking both A and B turrets out of action.
The Sydney scored four hits on the Kormoran with her X and Y turrets, setting her on fire, but in an apparent effort to ram the raider, the crippled cruiser crossed her wake, exposing her entire starboard side to the German gunners.
Once again, the automatic fire from the Kormoran destroyed everything on Sydney’s starboard superstructure, and as with the previously devastated port side, this included all the lifeboats and rafts.
This is believed to have been the main reason for the loss of all 645 officers and men on board when she subsequently went down.
When it became clear to Detmers that the fire on the Kormoran was out of control, and threatening the mines, he gave the order to abandon ship."
-
Brits deployed the "Q-ships" also in the WWII against the U-boats, although unsuccesfully. False flag was often used to carry out special operations. The false flag may not been used directly to attack the enemy at sea, but it made it much more convenient to get through to the enemy target, which may not been possible without the transportation under false flag.
Kormoran fought valiantly and used all her armaments and tricks to her advantage, as should all naval vessels...the Sydney was a fine ship with a fine crew who will be remembered with a national memorial next month on the 24th (a day before Anzac Day)...
As for those stinking sheep loving New Zealanders...well we've shared enough trenches, and blood together that they think they're almost as good as us: their big brothers across the Tasman...it also means like brothers when we fight each theres no bigger rivalry, but theres no better friend when we've stood together (especially against the english!!)
...its lucky for us thier love of Australia is only bettered by their love of gumboots, Rugby, Russell Crowe, inter family relationships, and ewes...
Tronsky
-
You know all those kiwi's moving to Sydney are raising the average IQ on both sides of the tasman mate.
-
:salute all that were on board the HMAS Sydney when she sank. Rest in Peace mates. :(
-
I wouldn't consider any opponent wielding a torpedo 'lightly armed'.