Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: storch on March 19, 2008, 08:50:51 AM
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california posters and shooters enlighten me please. what's the skinny on this nonsense? is it affecting a wide group of people? the NRA just did a blurb in their magazine but I wanted to see what the people directly affected felt.
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california posters and shooters enlighten me please. what's the skinny on this nonsense? is it affecting a wide group of people? the NRA just did a blurb in their magazine but I wanted to see what the people directly affected felt.
Well, when Governor SchwartzNimcompoop signed the current legislation into law, it only affected the central coastal areas of California, where the Wild Condors live. All kinds of insane reasons were given for making the law, mainly claiming that lead bullets were killing off the endangered Condor population. And this was despite any truly hard evidence that is actually taking place. The claim is that Condors are feeding off dead animals shot by hunters, and then ingesting the lead projectiles they were shot with.
Well, environmentalists say that this is not enough, and they NOW want ALL lead hunting ammunition banned in the ENTIRE state of California. We are talking both rifle and shotgun ammo here.
There is also a group in Wisconsin lobbying the state legislature there to outlaw all lead ammunition too.
This is just another backdoor way to outlaw hunting and gun ownership period. Just get rid of the ammunition, and then what are your guns good for?
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the ammo makers are ahead of the curve, they already make lead free ammo.
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Well, when Governor SchwartzNimcompoop signed the current legislation into law, it only affected the central coastal areas of California, where the Wild Condors live. All kinds of insane reasons were given for making the law, mainly claiming that lead bullets were killing off the endangered Condor population. And this was despite any truly hard evidence that is actually taking place. The claim is that Condors are feeding off dead animals shot by hunters, and then ingesting the lead projectiles they were shot with.
Well, environmentalists say that this is not enough, and they NOW want ALL lead hunting ammunition banned in the ENTIRE state of California. We are talking both rifle and shotgun ammo here.
There is also a group in Wisconsin lobbying the state legislature there to outlaw all lead ammunition too.
This is just another backdoor way to outlaw hunting and gun ownership period. Just get rid of the ammunition, and then what are your guns good for?
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http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2006/40/i19/abs/es060765s.html
Sounds like pretty compelling evidence.
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I remember reading somewhere that the article you cited was fabricated and disproved.
But hey, believe what you want to believe.
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I'll believe the evidence presented unless you got something other than your fuzzy memory.
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Laser,
If you provide something to back that statement up you will look far more reasonable and believable.
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Use DPU instead. Problem solved.
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I guess it's time to switch to depleted uranium.
Can someone hook me up w/ a source? I need .22 longs...
I suppose I'd settle for tungsten if I had to.
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http://www.nraila.org//Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=263 From a quick search, I'll look more after breakfast.
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http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/FryReport.pdf
It says in a 1992 -2002 period far more condors died to electrocution (powerlines), coyote and golden eagle predation, drowning, antifreeze ingestion, aspirationj, malnutrition and cancer than to lead poisoning. For example about twice as many died to electrocution than to lead poisoning and more than twice as many died to coyotes/golden eagles.
Just something to consider.
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They should get rid of lead ammo IMO. With all our technological advances we can't find something to replace it with? I know they make fish hooks that if say your line breaks and the fish swims off the hook will dissolve, but not sure how long that takes. I use steel shot anyway so i'm safe, plus i don't live in weirdfornia. Seems like more a pressure from EPA/PETA and tree huggers in general type law. I don't hunt and kill anything i don't intend to eat and i practice catch and release while fishing. I caught a 25lb striped bass in the aqua duct in california when i was stationed out there and let it go. Man did i make a lot of people on the bank mad. :lol
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The next step will be to outlaw gun powder due to quail and pheasant dieing of powder burns. :)
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Pretty sure they make unleaded bullets. You can continue your conspiracy theories elsewhere now. :noid
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Even non-lead bullets have trace amounts of lead in them.
But the real outrage is the number of animals that die from Lead Poisoning every year. Hundreds of Thousands of Deer and Taliban fighters die each year from lead poisoning! THE OUTRAGE!
(http://www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/invincibleman.png)
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http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/FryReport.pdf
It says in a 1992 -2002 period far more condors died to electrocution (powerlines), coyote and golden eagle predation, drowning, antifreeze ingestion, aspirationj, malnutrition and cancer than to lead poisoning. For example about twice as many died to electrocution than to lead poisoning and more than twice as many died to coyotes/golden eagles.
Just something to consider.
With the population as low at it is the numbers don't have to be high to warrant concern.
OTOH, the article you posted also states, "Lead exposure and intoxication continue to be a very critical problem.."
5 of the 54 dead Condors since rerelease in 1992 are confirmed to have died of lead poisoning. Almost 10%. Way too many for a population of less than 200.
And aren't we a little disingenuous in your list of causes of death? Lead poisoning is the #3 KNOWN cause of death. Power lines and predation are 1 & 2. The others you list are less than lead poisoning. I wonder why you would list them? (see chart on pp13.)
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Couple of thoughts:
Lead is poisonous.
The pliability of lead makes it a most useful compound for small arms projectiles. There may be other compounds that can substitute lead but I have not heard of any that are as good or superior to lead.
I would consider a ban on lead projectiles a direct infringment on the 2nd amendmant. I wonder what the Supreme Court would think?
Does lead accellerate global warming?
:eek:
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Barnes makes pure copper bullets but not in all calibers. There is non-toxic shot but almost all of it is significantly less effective than lead and it is all much more expensive.
But that's not the point is it? If hunters must spend a bajillion dollars to save one condor from lead poisoning... even though more die from coyote/eagle predation, the same die from electrocution, nearly as many die from ingesting antifreeze AND it hasn't been conclusively proven that firearm lead IS the source of lead in lead poisoned condors and the lead may in fact come from other environmental sources....... well, hunters just need to pay up.
MT, because taken in total, lead poisoning isn't the major factor at all. And, as has been pointed out, it can't be proven that firearm lead is THE primary cause of lead in condor blood.
From the NRA link:
A.B. 821's supporters pointed to a study led by Molly Church of the University of California, Santa Cruz, which concluded that "incidental ingestion of ammunition embedded in carcasses that condors feed on is the principal source of elevated lead exposure that threatens the recovery of condors in the wild." However, Don Saba, a research scientist in biochemistry and medicine (and a member of the NRA Board of Directors) reviewed the Church study and found that it "knowingly omitted critical data ... [that] indicate that the source of lead in the blood of condors is not from ammunition, but rather originates from some other source of lead in the environment."
As other possible sources of lead, a study for the California Department of Game and Fish, conducted at UC Davis, pointed to natural deposits, disposal of items that contain lead (such as batteries) and residue from leaded gasoline exhaust, among others. Similarly, a study commissioned by NRA, and conducted by environmental consultant Dr. Thomas D. Wright and environmental scientist Dr. Richard K. Peddicord, found that "there is no documentation or direct evidence" that condors ingest enough lead from ammunition to account for the lead found in their tissues. Wright and Peddicord concluded that the types of lead found in condors "(1) vary widely, (2) are not different from background lead ratios in the California environment and (3) are not unique to ammunition."
But by all means, California legislators should shoot first and aim later. After all, it's only hunters that have to pay right?
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MT, because taken in total, lead poisoning isn't the major factor at all. And, as has been pointed out, it can't be proven that firearm lead is THE primary cause of lead in condor blood.
From the NRA link:
The NRA link conveniently leaves out critical information. You on the other hand just out and out fibbed when you wrote: It says in a 1992 -2002 period far more condors died to electrocution (powerlines), coyote and golden eagle predation, drowning, antifreeze ingestion, aspirationj, malnutrition and cancer than to lead poisoning.
That is NOT what it says at all.
The NRA quote is based on the statement from the Davis Study (that you linked). I point you to the bottom 2 paragraphs on page 3. Hardly the same meaning when taken in context.
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Jeebus, what critical information did it leave out? CA Fish and Game says there are other possible sources.
This NRA statement:
However, Don Saba, a research scientist in biochemistry and medicine (and a member of the NRA Board of Directors) reviewed the Church study and found that it "knowingly omitted critical data ... [that] indicate that the source of lead in the blood of condors is not from ammunition, but rather originates from some other source of lead in the environment."
isn't related to the Fry study. It's a different study.
As for my statement, that is what it says. Look at the graph. Eliminate "unknown" and "disappeared" and it looks like about 28 died from other causes against maybe 5 from lead poisoning. Of those, you had about 17 from electrocution and predation. Drowning, malnutrition and antifreeze together killed as many as were found to be lead poisoned.
Again the CA point is that it's necessary for hunters to spend a bajillion dollars on the hope that it might save 5 condors over ten years.
Sounds like CA to me. It's just like microstamping; another wonderful CA scam.
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Oh and one other thing from the Fry study:
Direct observations of condors feeding on hunter-shot carrion are few, even with intense radio telemetry and visual surveillance and every effort should be made to document and organize the field observation data to quantify the exposure hazard from hunter shot carrion.
The short version of that is that they really have no idea how much lead condors ingest from hunter shot carrion. They have NO IDEA.
But hey... that's not reason not to pass another law. I mean just because you don't have any factual evidence that hunters are causing this, that's no reason not to pass this law, right?
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Fact - Lead is poisonous to humans, animals, birds and fish.
Whether or not it's the sole culprit in cases of Condors that die of lead poisoning or not, there is little doubt that it plays a role and likely plays a role in other species as well. While California's overnight ban of all lead is a bit draconian, I'm confused as to why so many hunters, most self professed wildlife lovers, have such a problem with moving on to another substance that is less harmful to wildlife. When I'm out hunting, I very much enjoy all the wildlife I see and if my ammunition is hurting the very thing I enjoy, then I have no problem with using another type of bullet, even if it might cost a little more at first. If done gradually over time, once it becomes standard the price will come back down.
We moved past leaded gas, why can't we evolve past leaded ammunition?
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Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?
How much would I be adding to the problem if I was hunting near Leadville, Colorado and I shot at an elk and missed?
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The real solution is to kill all the remaining condors.. they are more trouble than they are worth.
the DDT ban that killed millions of people was partly because it made the poor buzzards egg shells too soft.
lazs
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Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?
How much would I be adding to the problem if I was hunting near Leadville, Colorado and I shot at an elk and missed?
Because there's more lead in the environment than in a single bullet it's OK to keep polluting? I find that a bit self righteous excuse.
People should do their best to avoid polluting the environment with lead, because it will eventually get into the food chain and on the table. Besides spreading from one animal to another lead does also contaminate water.
It's not just about the birds, lead is harmful to humans as well.
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No because it's foolish to spend probably millions of dollars to accomplish something that will have no effect.
Would you spend a million bucks to keep one drop of polluted water out of the ocean when that same pollutant is naturally plentiful in the ocean already?
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Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?
I'm surprised you would make that statement. That's pure speculation. The condors are dieing of lead poisoning, that part is not disputed by either side. The NRA article you quoted from admitted the condors are getting lead from ammunition but that we can't be sure that it's their only source. They suggested it might be leaded gas or batteries. We haven't used leaded gas for a while now and if that was it, wouldn't they all be dying? I'm sure there might be a few batteries laying out in the wilderness somewhere but I have not seen any in my travels and I'm not sure why they would ingest the batteries. At this point common sense points to ammunition as the most likely cause.
Just because someone didn't watch a particular bird every minute for a year or so after they saw it eat lead and watch it die, doesn't mean ammunition wasn't the cause. Basically, the only thing Dr. Thomas D. Wright and Dr. Richard K. Peddicord said was the lead found in condors was the same type as found in other sources. Well, lead is lead after all. They fall short of actually pointing to any evidence of other significant amounts of lead in the condor’s environment.
We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range. If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears.
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it is obviously a lame back door way of making it more difficult and expensive to enjoy the shooting sports.
It will have little effect on me since I don't buy ammo..
The funny thing is tho that the back door gun banners always end up getting outsmarted.. the industry will come up with a new bullet that is better and just as cheap and will be more "deadly" sorta like the "hevishot" that replaced lead shot in shotgun shells. The backdoor gun grabbers were hoping that lead shot bans would end shotgun hunting.
But.. they never rest.. they pick away at every little edge.
lazs
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it is obviously a lame back door way of making it more difficult and expensive to enjoy the shooting sports.
I'm sure there are many that hope for just that, but at the root is a genuine issue affecting wildlife. I know you don't care one whit for the condors lasz, but I for one would like to see them back in the skies of the west coast.
the industry will come up with a new bullet that is better and just as cheap and will be more "deadly" sorta like the "hevishot" that replaced lead shot in shotgun shells.
............shhhhhhh.........don't tell that to those who think the new ammo will cost a bajillon dollars and be less effective
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Can you supply something to explain this statement?
"We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range. If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears."
What is "plenty of ammunition"? What is the range of the condor?
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I'm surprised you would make that statement. That's pure speculation.
Here's some speculation for you: the only reason condors die from lead poisoning is because they get lead in their systems from ingesting lead bullets and shot.
No leaded gas? How do you feel about general aviation? 100LL has 3-4 times much lead as the old 87 leaded avgas. That lead gets spewed right into the air the condors breathe while flying around.
How much lead is in the dirt that blows across and sticks to carrion?
I stick to what I said. Lead from ammunition is miniscule when compared to naturally occuring lead in the environment. Then there's the other unnatural lead, like from 100LL.
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Hevishot is significantly more expensive than lead shot. Significantly.
Prices from Cabela's:
Hevishot turkey loads, 12 ga #5 $20.99 for five rounds. Call it ~$4 per shot with tax.
Federal 12 ga #5 copperplated lead $13.99 for ten rounds. Call it $1.50 per shot with tax.
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There may be other compounds that can substitute lead but I have not heard of any that are as good or superior to lead.
Silver and Gold, both are vastly superior to lead in every way.
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............but if it saves one Condor. :rolleyes:
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Can you supply something to explain this statement?
"We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range. If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears."
What is "plenty of ammunition"? What is the range of the condor?
California Condor - BirdLife Species Factsheet (http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/index.html?action=SpcHTMDetails.asp&sid=3821&m=0)
The regular movements of the Arizona birds are confined to Coconnino County (Arizona) and Kane County (Utah), although a handful of individuals have wandered north to Flaming Gorge (Wyoming) and localities in Colorado before returning to the Grand Canyon area. The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz. The Baja California birds are still confined to the Sierra de San Pedro Martir
And hunting of course is alive and well in these areas too.
The Arizona Game and Fish Department is now distributing safer lead-substitute bullets free of charge to hunters within the foraging range of the condors, and similar programs are being initiated in California
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There ya go... I have no problem with the State of California distributing free lead-free ammunition to all hunters. That way EVERYBODY in CA can do their bit to save the condors.
Heck, it's just a tiny little dollop of taxpayer money.
Great solution!
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I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.
Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.
"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."
Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.
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Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.
If they are it is no wonder they are kicking the bucket.
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so the ban is not affecting california shooters all that much?
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Here's some speculation for you: the only reason condors die from lead poisoning is because they get lead in their systems from ingesting lead bullets and shot.
No leaded gas? How do you feel about general aviation? 100LL has 3-4 times much lead as the old 87 leaded avgas. That lead gets spewed right into the air the condors breathe while flying around.
How much lead is in the dirt that blows across and sticks to carrion?
I stick to what I said. Lead from ammunition is miniscule when compared to naturally occuring lead in the environment. Then there's the other unnatural lead, like from 100LL.
If it was lead from avgas I would think the distribution would be pretty constant over the entire continent and ALL the condors would be affected with the same amount, not just a few dying with high levels of lead.
While I disagree with your reasoning, I agree that there is no irrefutable proof. More research needs to be done IMO. The best research would be to feed a few captive birds carrion shot with lead bullets and see how they fair. This of course will never happen given the small number of birds left. So I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens now that Cali has passed the law.
BTW, I am against taxpayers paying the bill on lead free ammo. If I was Arnie, I would demand irrefutable proof and then I would expect the ammunition makers to voluntarily make the change over time. No laws or taxpayer money needed.
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I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.
Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.
"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."
Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.
Ok Mav. When I'm out shooting, I expend plenty of ammunition. Since I don't live in California and have not personally seen anyone expending plenty of ammunition there, I hereby withdraw my previous use of the word "plenty".
And those locations are counties. The condors tend to stay away from cities.
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I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.
Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.
"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."
Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.
Those are Counties Mav, and if you were to pull out your... atlas... you'd see that there are millions of acres of wilderness in those counties.
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I am aware that there are counties there. I am also aware that hunting is still quite restricted, especially in LA area as there is a lot of population in those counties. I've been in the area before.
I'm also aware that hunters take their game and don't leave it for scavengers. I'm also aware that there is not a significant amount of lead being spewed from the barrel of guns, particularly from center fire rifles and handguns that is going to find it's way into a Condor. Particularly given the few numbers of the birds.
I did not see anything in the study that indicated other sources of lead and other toxins were eliminated to narrow it down to hunters.
It's more like blaming spilled table salt in a picnic area for the death of freshwater plants in a salt water environment statewide.
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If it was lead from avgas I would think the distribution would be pretty constant over the entire continent and ALL the condors would be affected with the same amount, not just a few dying with high levels of lead.
Oh, are there condors all over the continent? We don't see too many out here in Kansas. Or is your point that GA aircraft fly equally in all parts of California and that the barren wastelands that the condors frequent gets just as much GA traffic as the LA basin?
BTW, I am against taxpayers paying the bill on lead free ammo. If I was Arnie, I would demand irrefutable proof and then I would expect the ammunition makers to voluntarily make the change over time. No laws or taxpayer money needed.
Of course you are! You're apparently one of those that only wants to spend other people's money. Aren't the condors so important to ALL Californians? Don't ALL Californians want condors to prosper? So since you agree there's no proof concering lead ammo, isn't only fair that ALL Californians chip in for the cost of this experiment? Why should hunters fund the entire experiment when it may turn out that lead bullets have little to do with it?
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:huh
Ok dude, you totally lost me there.
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Sounds like to me they need to actually identify the source of the lead and then take action instead of just assuming it comes from hunters.
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condors are too stupid to live.. we are playing god with nature.
Hevi shot is more expensive but.. face it.. not a big deal if you use a box all year to hunt.. you can still use lead to skeet shoot. TMJ bullets will still be allowed.. lead that is covered totally by some jacket.
I reload.. I don't buy ammo.. bullets for handguns can be made from wheel weights and scrap lead of which there is countless tons in kalifornia just lying on the roads and everywhere. For rifles.. I use full metal jacket for the most part anyway...military surplus or cheap FMJ slugs to reload.
But yes.. it is another shot by the gun grabbers who lie awake nigthts thinking of ways to make life harder on gun owners.
lazs
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Of course in Idaho we pass laws that make gun ownership a requirement ;)
(Greenleaf is about 20 miles west of here) "Ordinance 208, passed by the City Council on Tuesday, asks Greenleaf's 862 residents who do not object on religious or other grounds to keep a gun at home in case they are overrun by refugees from the Gulf Coast."
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Of course in Idaho we pass laws that make gun ownership a requirement ;)
(Greenleaf is about 20 miles west of here) "Ordinance 208, passed by the City Council on Tuesday, asks Greenleaf's 862 residents who do not object on religious or other grounds to keep a gun at home in case they are overrun by refugees from the Gulf Coast."
Don't know why they object to refugees from New Orleans since by letting Kalifornians in it's obvious they have no standards. :P
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Yea, but they stopped me at the border to ensure I was armed.
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...and being a Californian, MT promptly rolled up his sleeves to show them he was in fact "well armed" due to all the time in the gym and on the beach.
;)
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Of course in Idaho we pass laws that make gun ownership a requirement ;)
(Greenleaf is about 20 miles west of here) "Ordinance 208, passed by the City Council on Tuesday, asks Greenleaf's 862 residents who do not object on religious or other grounds to keep a gun at home in case they are overrun by refugees from the Gulf Coast."
LOL, I freakin love it! I work offshore for a living, and was a part of the mass confusion evacuating Southern Louisianna. As a Houstonian, I have seen what the aftermath has done to the Houston area. I wouldn't blame you one bit for arming yourself. Just make sure you shoot lead free bullets, in case a wandering condor happens by.
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...and being a Californian, MT promptly rolled up his sleeves to show them he was in fact "well armed" due to all the time in the gym and on the beach.
;)
I'm assuming Rude, ygsmeylo and Stringer were awed by my presence and filled you in...
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the ammo makers are ahead of the curve, they already make lead free ammo.
Not for all types or calibers of hunting ammo.
The replacements are sometimes inferior in performance, or prohibitively expensive.
You have any idea what tungsten, copper, and nickel are selling for these days??
There was a very valid scientific reason for outlawing lead shot for waterfowl hunting. There is no valid reason for these new bans.
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The next step will be to outlaw gun powder due to quail and pheasant dieing of powder burns. :)
These expensive hi-tech non-toxic replacements do have their drawbacks, besides just their very high cost ( often as high as $2 a shell or even more ).
I tried using the Hevishot brand of non-toxic shotgun shells on a Chukar hunt ( Chukar is sort of a large quail, native to Pakistan, but now living wild in many western states ) once, due to all the hype about how powerful it is.
Well, this tungsten-nickel alloy shot is actually way heavier than lead, so it penetrated much more and did a lot more damage to the bird. Plus, the shot was so hard that it made the pellet pattern far more tight and dense than normal, even though I had an open Improved Cylinder choke installed in my Beretta shotgun.
I had a chukar flush at my feet, and I actually held off shooting for awhile, to allow for some distance to open up between us. But when I fired, the Hevishot pattern was so dense, it literally destroyed the bird. The head and legs were actually blown off. The only recognizable part left of the bird was its tail, which was still intact. But all that the tail was still attached to was a gooey mess.
http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/hunting/?action=view¤t=chukar_email2.jp
Anyway, I was unhappy with the way that this ammo performed. We simply had to throw what little was left of the bird away.
Unfortunately, our bird guide could not stop laughing when he saw what I had done. He told me that he had never seen a client do anything like that before. I was really embarassed. :o :o :o
Lead still remains the best material to use when making bullets or pellets.
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so the ban is not affecting california shooters all that much?
If the ban is extended state wide, then it most definitely will.
There is some wild hog hunting done in those areas. And also some varmint hunting of coyotes and California Ground Squirrels.
Deer hunting in California has dropped off greatly, ever since cougar hunting was outlawed in the state. So many hunters have thus taken up wild hog hunting.
The state is now overrun with Cougars. But they are now considered to be a sacred cow there, that is untouchable for hunting.
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sig... sounds like the hevi shot is better in every way. It also sounds like the fault is the gun and you and not the shot.
Not to blame you or the gun but.. it will take time to figure out how best to use it. If open cyl works better with hevi shot than full choke with lead.. then so be it.. we will learn. being heavier and having denser patterns is not a bad thing.
I killed a boar with a 240 grain cast (from wheel weights) 44 mag slug.. there was no expansion but good penetration.. I would have been just as well served with a copper solid. I would practice with lead and hunt with non lead if I still hunted.
sure.. it is a scam by the gun grabbers but it is not a crippling blow.. just one more cut in the "death by a thousand cuts" tactic that they are using on us and one more reason to become more independent of factory ammo..
learn to reload eveyone.. join the NRA everyone... take a new non gun person out every chance you get and show em what a great time firearms are. Real firearms.. not movie ones.. teach em to respect the guns while having a good time and we will never be in danger of losing our rights.
I have NEVER taken anyone out shooting who did not have a good time and who did not become an ally for gun rights to some extent. Any change in their position was always a positive one for gun owners rights.
lazs
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I have NEVER taken anyone out shooting who did not have a good time and who did not become an ally for gun rights to some extent.
Are you forgetting Beet1e? He went shooting with you iirc and he still seemed pretty anti gun.
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Are you forgetting Beet1e? He went shooting with you iirc and he still seemed pretty anti gun.
That`s just Beetless.................the U.S. Empire jealousy thingie and all. :)
He also stated here on these boards that he had a good time..........but Bingie could probably straighten this all out .
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All kinds of insane reasons were given for making the law, mainly claiming that lead bullets were killing off the endangered Condor population.
In my region, steel shot has been the norm for waterfowl hunting for quite some time.
I fail to see how steel shot wouldn't be effective for hunting condors.
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I fail to see how steel shot wouldn't be effective for hunting condors.
:rofl :aok
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No more condors.. no more problem.
lazs
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No more condors.. no more problem.
lazs
Yep. An open season with no bag limit would clear this up in no time.
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Personally I agree with Lazs- species have been going extinct for millions of years, with or without our help- but I also think the ban on lead projectiles is done for exactly the reasons stated- to save the Condors.
I do not believe this is a back door move for the ultimate ban on firearms, nor is this a second amendment infringement. Also I still hunt, and we've had to use steel shot for waterfowl (in Calif.) for years now. On a really good duck hunt I might fire maybe 12, 15 rounds- for pheasant hunting, maybe 5 or 6 rounds- turkey hunting, maybe 2-3 rounds- deer or pig, maybe 2 rounds tops- so if I have to pay two dollars for a shotgun shell, or three dollars for a rifle shell, it's not that much of an expense considering the price of licensing, a pheasant club, the gas to get there, etc.-
That said, out of all the issues that divide our political parties- abortion, capital punishment, Iraq- the only issue that can actually be changed is gun control. We'll still have abortions, no matter who our President is. We'll still be in Iraq, still have NAFTA, still have capital punishment rather McCain or Clinton is our next President.
Sad, but true...we'll have no difference in issues between Dems and Repugs, all we can do is vote to further reestrict our rights.
BTW Lazs- I shot an M14 Saturday- 308, selective fire- that and an M5. The M14 rocked. I thought of you while I was out there- not in a gay way, but in a manly gun shooting kinda way.
:D
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we have been using steel shot for waterfowl for years as well. the thing is that with lead shot your really reach out further and hit harder. I consider it to be purely an attempt to back door infringement into our second amendments rights. with regard to lead in the environment as an issue, where do you think lead comes from?
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Leadville, Colorado?
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Airhead,
The problem with using your reason for allowing this excuse to be played is that it isn't just the few shells you are using for hunting. It's the shells that are used on every range in the state. You know, where the lions share of the ammunition is used and where Condors do not feed. Blaming this on hunters is like blaming surgeons use of silk sutures for the demise of silk worms in China.
How many tons of lead in the form of lead oxides has been spread on the environment from the use of leaded fuels over the decades it was in use? You know this is lead that is easily absorbed by the water and subsequently plants then other animals. Since it's cumulative and the concentrations go up as the food chain gets higher (just like mercury in the fish) the levels will be detectable in the predators and scavengers. How about the tons upon tons of discarded automotive batteries that use a spongy lead, rather than solid homogeneous lead?
Saying the lead from the deer hunters bullet somehow is tainting the animal population is rather disingenuous. The same goes for the lead that is used on a range, particularly when it's also recycled to make new bullets or shot.
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I am pretty sure nature wanted the Cali condor to die out.
We should have let it.
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I am pretty sure nature wanted the Cali condor to die out.
We should have let it.
Ironically, yes, that's true; They're decline is really as much to blame on factors' that man has really only hastened.
That said, I've used steel shot for over 20 years, in my shotguns. And rifle bullets, even .22 LR slugs, don't deposit enough lead to really have an economic impact.
Not like, say, particles' from the Brake linings' on railway cars, or Lead from leaded gas. Industrial polution used to put literally tons of lead in the environment each day, especially in California's heavy industrial areas' such as the LA basin and the SF bay area.
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Maverick, I agree the logic of most enviromentalists is flawed. In California we can attend a no nuke power protest on Friday, a no offshore oil drilling protest on Saturday, a US Out of Iraq protest on Sunday, and on Monday we write letters to the editor complaining about gasoline prices. This is probably just one more issue that is headed up by well meaning but misguided legislators who are trying to do the right thing plus make their constituents believe they're actually working.
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No one has answered the big question lurking in the background..........
............. is Condor as tasty as spotted owl?
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No one has answered the big question lurking in the background.......
........... is Condor as tasty as spotted owl?
No, not at all. Spotted owl tastes an awful lot like bald eagle, whereas condor tastes more like whooping crane.