The people's republic of california expands the bans on lead projectiles

[midnight Target]

http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/FryReport.pdf

It says in a 1992 -2002 period far more condors died to electrocution (powerlines), coyote and golden eagle predation, drowning, antifreeze ingestion, aspirationj, malnutrition and cancer than to lead poisoning. For example about twice as many died to electrocution than to lead poisoning and more than twice as many died to coyotes/golden eagles.

Just something to consider.

With the population as low at it is the numbers don't have to be high to warrant concern.

OTOH, the article you posted also states, "Lead exposure and intoxication continue to be a very critical problem.."

5 of the 54 dead Condors since rerelease in 1992 are confirmed to have died of lead poisoning. Almost 10%. Way too many for a population of less than 200.

And aren't we a little disingenuous in your list of causes of death? Lead poisoning is the #3 KNOWN cause of death. Power lines and predation are 1 & 2. The others you list are less than lead poisoning. I wonder why you would list them? (see chart on pp13.)

[Yeager]

Couple of thoughts:

Lead is poisonous.

The pliability of lead makes it a most useful compound for small arms projectiles.  There may be other compounds that can substitute lead but I have not heard of any that are as good or superior to lead.

I would consider a ban on lead projectiles a direct infringment on the 2nd amendmant.  I wonder what the Supreme Court would think?

Does lead accellerate global warming?

[Toad]

Barnes makes pure copper bullets but not in all calibers. There is non-toxic shot but almost all of it is significantly less effective than lead and it is all much more expensive.

But that's not the point is it? If hunters must spend a bajillion dollars to save one condor from lead poisoning... even though more die from coyote/eagle predation, the same die from electrocution, nearly as many die from ingesting antifreeze AND it hasn't been conclusively proven that firearm lead IS the source of lead in lead poisoned condors and the lead may in fact come from other environmental sources....... well, hunters just need to pay up.

MT, because taken in total, lead poisoning isn't the major factor at all. And, as has been pointed out, it can't be proven that firearm lead is THE primary cause of lead in condor blood.
From the NRA link:

A.B. 821's supporters pointed to a study led by Molly Church of the University of California, Santa Cruz, which concluded that "incidental ingestion of ammunition embedded in carcasses that condors feed on is the principal source of elevated lead exposure that threatens the recovery of condors in the wild." However, Don Saba, a research scientist in biochemistry and medicine (and a member of the NRA Board of Directors) reviewed the Church study and found that it "knowingly omitted critical data ... [that] indicate that the source of lead in the blood of condors is not from ammunition, but rather originates from some other source of lead in the environment."

As other possible sources of lead, a study for the California Department of Game and Fish, conducted at UC Davis, pointed to natural deposits, disposal of items that contain lead (such as batteries) and residue from leaded gasoline exhaust, among others. Similarly, a study commissioned by NRA, and conducted by environmental consultant Dr. Thomas D. Wright and environmental scientist Dr. Richard K. Peddicord, found that "there is no documentation or direct evidence" that condors ingest enough lead from ammunition to account for the lead found in their tissues. Wright and Peddicord concluded that the types of lead found in condors "(1) vary widely, (2) are not different from background lead ratios in the California environment and (3) are not unique to ammunition."

But by all means, California legislators should shoot first and aim later. After all, it's only hunters that have to pay right?

[midnight Target]

MT, because taken in total, lead poisoning isn't the major factor at all. And, as has been pointed out, it can't be proven that firearm lead is THE primary cause of lead in condor blood.
From the NRA link:

The NRA link conveniently leaves out critical information. You on the other hand just out and out fibbed when you wrote:

It says in a 1992 -2002 period far more condors died to electrocution (powerlines), coyote and golden eagle predation, drowning, antifreeze ingestion, aspirationj, malnutrition and cancer than to lead poisoning.

That is NOT what it says at all.

The NRA quote is based on the statement from the Davis Study (that you linked). I point you to the bottom 2 paragraphs on page 3. Hardly the same meaning when taken in context.

[Toad]

Jeebus, what critical information did it leave out? CA Fish and Game says there are other possible sources.

This NRA statement:

However, Don Saba, a research scientist in biochemistry and medicine (and a member of the NRA Board of Directors) reviewed the Church study and found that it "knowingly omitted critical data ... [that] indicate that the source of lead in the blood of condors is not from ammunition, but rather originates from some other source of lead in the environment."

isn't related to the Fry study. It's a different study.

As for my statement, that is what it says. Look at the graph. Eliminate "unknown" and "disappeared" and it looks like about 28 died from other causes against maybe 5 from lead poisoning. Of those, you had about 17 from electrocution and predation. Drowning, malnutrition and antifreeze together killed as many as were found to be lead poisoned.

Again the CA point is that it's necessary for hunters to spend a bajillion dollars on the hope that it might save 5 condors over ten years.

Sounds like CA to me. It's just like microstamping; another wonderful CA scam.

[Toad]

Oh and one other thing from the Fry study:

Direct observations of condors feeding on hunter-shot carrion are few, even with intense radio telemetry and visual surveillance and every effort should be made to document and organize the field observation data to quantify the exposure hazard from hunter shot carrion.

The short version of that is that they really have no idea how much lead condors ingest from hunter shot carrion. They have NO IDEA.

But hey... that's not reason not to pass another law. I mean just because you don't have any factual evidence that hunters are causing this, that's no reason not to pass this law, right?

[ChickenHawk]

Fact - Lead is poisonous to humans, animals, birds and fish.

Whether or not it's the sole culprit in cases of Condors that die of lead poisoning or not, there is little doubt that it plays a role and likely plays a role in other species as well.  While California's overnight ban of all lead is a bit draconian, I'm confused as to why so many hunters, most self professed wildlife lovers, have such a problem with moving on to another substance that is less harmful to wildlife.  When I'm out hunting, I very much enjoy all the wildlife I see and if my ammunition is hurting the very thing I enjoy, then I have no problem with using another type of bullet, even if it might cost a little more at first.  If done gradually over time, once it becomes standard the price will come back down.

We moved past leaded gas, why can't we evolve past leaded ammunition?

[Toad]

Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?

How much would I be adding to the problem if I was hunting near Leadville, Colorado and I shot at an elk and missed?

[lazs2]

The real solution is to kill all the remaining condors..  they are more trouble than they are worth.

the DDT ban that killed millions of people was partly because it made the poor buzzards egg shells too soft.

lazs

[Fishu]

Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?

How much would I be adding to the problem if I was hunting near Leadville, Colorado and I shot at an elk and missed?

Because there's more lead in the environment than in a single bullet it's OK to keep polluting? I find that a bit self righteous excuse.
People should do their best to avoid polluting the environment with lead, because it will eventually get into the food chain and on the table. Besides spreading from one animal to another lead does also contaminate water.

It's not just about the birds, lead is harmful to humans as well.

[Toad]

No because it's foolish to spend probably millions of dollars to accomplish something that will have no effect.

Would you spend a million bucks to keep one drop of polluted water out of the ocean when that same pollutant is naturally plentiful in the ocean already?

[ChickenHawk]

Because in most cases lead bullets are a microscopically minimal factor in the totality of environmental lead?

I'm surprised you would make that statement.  That's pure speculation.  The condors are dieing of lead poisoning, that part is not disputed by either side.  The NRA article you quoted from admitted the condors are getting lead from ammunition but that we can't be sure that it's their only source.  They suggested it might be leaded gas or batteries.  We haven't used leaded gas for a while now and if that was it, wouldn't they all be dying?  I'm sure there might be a few batteries laying out in the wilderness somewhere but I have not seen any in my travels and I'm not sure why they would ingest the batteries.  At this point common sense points to ammunition as the most likely cause.

Just because someone didn't watch a particular bird every minute for a year or so after they saw it eat lead and watch it die, doesn't mean ammunition wasn't the cause.  Basically, the only thing Dr. Thomas D. Wright and Dr. Richard K. Peddicord said was the lead found in condors was the same type as found in other sources.  Well, lead is lead after all.  They fall short of actually pointing to any evidence of other significant amounts of lead in the condor’s environment.

We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range.  If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears.

[lazs2]

it is obviously a lame back door way of making it more difficult and expensive to enjoy the shooting sports.

It will have little effect on me since I don't buy ammo..

The funny thing is tho that the back door gun banners always end up getting outsmarted.. the industry will come up with a new bullet that is better and just as cheap and will be more "deadly"  sorta like the "hevishot" that replaced lead shot in shotgun shells.   The backdoor gun grabbers were hoping that lead shot bans would end shotgun hunting.   

But.. they never rest.. they pick away at every little edge.

lazs

[ChickenHawk]

it is obviously a lame back door way of making it more difficult and expensive to enjoy the shooting sports.

I'm sure there are many that hope for just that, but at the root is a genuine issue affecting wildlife.  I know you don't care one whit for the condors lasz, but I for one would like to see them back in the skies of the west coast.

the industry will come up with a new bullet that is better and just as cheap and will be more "deadly"  sorta like the "hevishot" that replaced lead shot in shotgun shells.

_{............shhhhhhh.........don't tell that to those who think the new ammo will cost a bajillon dollars and be less effective}

[Maverick]

Can you supply something to explain this statement?
"We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range.  If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears."

What is "plenty of ammunition"? What is the range of the condor?