Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SIG220 on March 20, 2008, 03:53:18 AM
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We have had some heated discussions here regarding the death penalty in the past, and some have argued that executing the worst offenders in public would be a very good thing to do. But tell me, do you honestly believe that would be desirable? I ask this because just such an execution actually happened last Sunday.
Iran executed a man who was convicted of sexually raping and murdering 16 young boys over a long period of time. He was sentenced to 100 lashes for the rapes. The judge also gave him 16 separate death sentences. Because the court imposed multiple death sentences, it was deemed appropriate by public officials for him to die slowly. So instead of a typical quick hanging, a mother of one of the murdered boys was allowed to tie a noose around his neck, and he was then slowly lifted up by a construction crane, causing him to slowly strangle to death.
But he first had the 100 lashes applied. Multiple public officials had to be used to administer the beating, as they became too exhausted from giving him so many blows. While he was being beaten, an overflow crowd of over 5,000 people from the small town where the murders took place watched and cheered wildly. Dozens of people in the crowd also threw rocks at him, during the beating. One relative of one of the young boys even managed to slip through the security. He stabbed the murderer once in the back with a knife, while he was still handcuffed to the post he was being beaten at. The relative was seized and taken into custody, so the execution could then proceed. But the police released him afterwards, with no charges filed against him.
While one can argue that justice was done here, is this really civilized behavior?? Would we really want to act like the Islamic extremists do in Iran?? It seems to me that we would lose something as a society and a culture if we did.
The name of the condemned man was "Mohammed Bijeh". Don't Google his name unless you have a strong stomach. There were a number of Iranian photojournalists present at the hanging.
Interestingly, the accomplice that helped Bijeh actually kidnap the boys, only got a sentence of 100 lashes and 15 years in prison. He did not actually participate in the rapes or murders themselves. So he consequently was not charged with those crimes, even though he facilitated them by helping to seize the boys.
I believe that in a lot of Western countries he probably would have been charged with murder too. Although I surely don't claim to be any legal expert.
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I have always been against the death penalty for two reasons.
1. The cours may, and have made mistakes when convicting someone. You cant reverse a death penalty.
2. Killing someone is offering them a quick way out. Let them rot.
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Administering the death penalty doesn't need to be cruel and drawn out like the Iranians did it.
I do believe he earned the death penalty though. Even Jeffrey Dahmer eventually got served a death sentence, it was just administered by inmates instead of a court system. Not saying I approve of that, even though I believe that he too earned a death sentence.
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Yep. You're confusing a humane, quickly-performed death sentence with that bloody, brutal farce. I support the first, but I can't support the second. Look at it this way: You're putting down a rabid dog because it just can't live with other dogs. You may not hate the dog, but even if yu do you put it down as quickly and painlessly as possible.
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I have always been against the death penalty for two reasons.
1. The cours may, and have made mistakes when convicting someone. You cant reverse a death penalty.
2. Killing someone is offering them a quick way out. Let them rot.
I agree
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That's contradictory, Nilsen.
You might get an innocent man, so it's better not to give him a quick way out but instead to make him rot for 50 years in prison? Not to mention that taxpayers are paying for 50 years of food, housing, and medical care.
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Being civilized means that you understand that there are certain people that do not deserve to live in our society. Pedophiles, murderers rank at the very top of a very short list.
Did this guy in Iran derserve to die? He raped and murdered 15 kids. Hell yes he deserved to die. Do I approve of the method used? Not really but I can also see the justice in it. That sort of thing would never fly over here, but just the same, strap his arse in the chair, insert the needle and put him down for good.
I honestly have never understood the position of the anti death penalty crowd. Maybe I'm too much of a redneck but I see no reason to spend tax dollars housing some ultra melon that has been found guilty of murder, or raping kids, for the rest of their lives. That mearly puts a finacial burdon on me and everyone else. With that thought in mind, I end up having to pay for his actions for the rest of his life. SCREW that. If it's been proven in a court of law, not once but TWICE, because a death penalty is grounds for an automatic appeal, then it's done, Get rid of the POS and move on. I don't care about his family, friends or anyone else that has his interest in mind. I care about the victim. Who had their interest in mind when said ultra melon was doing his thing to them??
The largest problem with this country is that we don't kill enough of these monsters. These freaks of nature do what they do KNOWING that even if they get caught, more than likely the'll end up living out their days in jail, but they're not going to be killed. They'll have 3 squares a day, color cable TV, free medical care.
Personaly anyone who objects to the death penalty on "moral" grounds needs to grow a set, man up, and do what has to be done. That's my opinion.
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I have split feelings on this.
The Iranian story quoted above is over the top.
In the USA, John (Wayne) Gacy was convicted of raping & murdering numerous young men & boys. He did a long jail stint, and then was executed.
There have been cases in our country where people have been convicted, and then found to be innocent by confession or DNA proof, so yes, mistakes have been made. It would be a travesty to execute the wrong person.....but......
Then I think about that college student at UNC Chapel Hill. Senselessly shot in the head and dumped in the street to eventually die. The animal(s) who did it got temporary use of her car and tried to use her debit card...that's all they got. I don't think the taxpayers of North Carolina want their hard earned tax dollars spent feeding those animal(s) in a cage for the rest of their natural days...
Fire up "Old Sparky".
ROX
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nelson.. can you name one person who was executed unjustly here? I bet you can name a bunch of people who did not get the death penalty or were not executed promptly that got away or killed again.
as for your second statement that the death penalty is too quick.. "let em rot" It would appear that you condone torture but not death? I don't believe in torture.. sorry. put the poor miserable wretch out of his misery and act like a civilized human.
I believe that execution of such incurables is the civilized way.. that caged torture is uncivilized.. many of the prisoners here that you "civilized" and compassionate people would "save" go through at least as much torture as the iranian guy before they die...
you just don't do it yourself.. you cage them with other miserable refuse and pretend you don't have anything to do with what happens.
lazs
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While one can argue that justice was done here, is this really civilized behavior??
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The words Iran and civilized do not mix well. Oil/water
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I have always been against the death penalty for two reasons.
1. The cours may, and have made mistakes when convicting someone. You cant reverse a death penalty.
2. Killing someone is offering them a quick way out. Let them rot.
I wont bother in any length here other than to say that the entire human race benifits by the culling of a select few murderous types, who long as they breath air, are violent threats to the rest of us.
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1. The cours may, and have made mistakes when convicting someone. You cant reverse a death penalty.
So are you also opposed to imprisonment? Because you can't reverse that either. If someone has spent 20 years in prison and then their conviction is reversed, you can't give them back those 20 years.
By that logic, the only punishment would be things like fines because if you make a mistake you can refund the money (with interest).
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That turd in Iran got no less than he deserved. But what happened there has no parallels to the Death penalty here except that in the end, the guy was dead. We should set a standard and do it consistently...put 'em down quick and move on.
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Updated for current prices, the 60 cent solution still works just fine. Done correctly, which is pretty easy, the soul would leave the body at about 3000 fps. OK, you're right, shotguns under the chin work too at about 1500 fps.
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Yes, it is civilized behavior. A criminal's punishment MUST be worse than the severity of the crime he committed. If not, then there will never really be a true deterrent.
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So are you also opposed to imprisonment? Because you can't reverse that either. If someone has spent 20 years in prison and then their conviction is reversed, you can't give them back those 20 years.
By that logic, the only punishment would be things like fines because if you make a mistake you can refund the money (with interest).
rofl are you serious?
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Some folks like to confuse being civilized into this equation. Bottom line is the criminal was not concerned about how the victim or victims felt or if they died. I for one do not care how the criminal feels.... but I do believe he should die and I don't care if he suffers.
While mistakes happen, they are few and far between. To dismantle a building because of a few bricks is rediculous.
The prisons are full of folks now and alot of our tax dollars are spent on them. If you think going to prison means rotting... you should look into our prison systems a little more in depth.
I for one would like to see the balance that did not receive the death penalty sent to the desert and given wood, nails, and hammers to build their own roofs over their head and send in bread and water.
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rofl are you serious?
What's funny about it? Myelo's logic makes perfect sense.
On a side note... personally I'd rather die than spend 30 years in prison.
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rofl are you serious?
After you pick yourself up off the floor, would you care to point out the flaw in my argument?
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Im going to try to take you semi serious even if its very hard.
If you kill someone they die, and you cant bring them back to life with current technology. If you put someone in prison they can fight for their cause (if they have any) and get out to enjoy some of their life if they were been falsly convicted.
Yes i am for punishing bad people by putting them in jail.
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beyond that look at sirhan sirhan or charles manson. both are clearly guilty neither will ever breathe free air. they will waste away in prison. I think that death would be far too lenient a punishment for these types of people. I believe it to be a good use use of the governments authority and a good application of the public monies to maintain these types of people in prison. personally I wish them a long and perfectly healthy life as long as they remain remanded to one of our correctional instititutions until they are no more.
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beyond that look at sirhan sirhan or charles manson. both are clearly guilty neither will ever breathe free air. they will waste away in prison. I think that death would be far too lenient a punishment for these types of people. I believe it to be a good use use of the governments authority and a good application of the public monies to maintain these types of people in prison. personally I wish them a long and perfectly healthy life as long as they remain remanded to one of our correctional instititutions until they are no more.
Wait, it's a good use of public money to waste millions upon millions of dollars PER prisoner? As opposed to the 30cents each?
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Im going to try to take you semi serious even if its very hard.
Well, do your best to keep up then.
If you put someone in prison they can fight for their cause (if they have any) and get out to enjoy some of their life if they were been falsly convicted.
My point is you can't give back the time they have already served. That portion of their life is gone, and unlike Elvis, it ain't coming back.
There are several valid arguments against capital punishment. "Do overs" aren't one of them.
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We should have a vote.... those that want to pay for murders to live a full life and those who don't.
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I'm for the death penalty. As stated earlier, a death sentence carries with it an automatic appeal. Once that appeal process is over with, carry out the execution.
That's where my beliefs differ from others': I do believe in the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" concept to some degree.
If a rapist is sentenced to die, distasteful as it sounds to some, he should die while being raped to death.
Sentenced to die for stabbing someone, slashing their throat? Guess what chief......you're gonna be bound and made as helpless as your victim(s) were, then the executioner will come in and deliver like or identical penetrating trauma to YOU, and you will bleed out just like your victim(s).
Apply a method of death identical to whatever they were sentenced to die for.
Since I don't really know how the criminal mind works, I can't say for sure that knowing you are gonna die in the same manner in which you murdered your victims, but I know it would give ME pause and make me think.
As for the nonviolent, or not as violent criminals.......take them out into the deserts, give 'em tents. Running water for bathing/hygiene only. Food would be bread and water and whatever they could get to grow. No more sheltered life in a building with a roof over their heads. Don't our troops live in tents? If it's good enough for US troops, it's more than good enough for the criminals.
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I approve of the death penalty but not as a means of torture or even vengeance. It's a means of removing a dangerous predator from society so that they never put others in harm again.
We put down animals that are a danger to people or that are too sick to allow to suffer. The same should apply to people that prey on society. A child molester rapist or other deviant should not be punished in a like manner to their crimes, just put them down. Do not enjoy it but do so reluctantly as the last means of protecting those who do not deserve to be his / her prey.
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It's hard to look at another country and decide for them what is human and what isn't. Even in our own country the standards quickly change. The spankings I received as a kid could get a parent thrown in jail now, wife abuse was much more tolerated... no one called it animal abuse if you killed a rat or a bird or your neighbors cat that kept stalking the chickens. I don't think it is appropriate to say those things were wrong then... because times were different. Given the environment back then... those things were the norm. Likewise... I don't think we can look at another country and judge one aspect of their behaviour without taking into consideration their overall environment.
Personally... a few years ago I didn't really have much of an opinion one way or another on the death penalty. Then... I was a juror on a murder trial with the death penalty as a possibility. Actually... I was an alternate juror... so while I had to sit through the whole trial, I did not join the rest of the jurors for deliberation. I would say now I lean against the death penalty. I do not think it is an effective deterant. I have also read that it costs more in court costs to put someone to death than to leave them in prison their whole life. (Not sure if that is true though)
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On a side note... personally I'd rather die than spend 30 years in prison.
Funny, all those prison reality shows on TV where the murdering punks always say the same thing..."I want to die blah blah blah"....... come to find out they always end up appealing the death sentence they asked for. Paarently dying is easy to do when its in the distance. Its when it gets up close and personal that the chicken comes out to roost.
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not for everyone. keep in mind that there really are people who have a grudge list that they work down and when they went as far as possible place one in their own brain pan.
no generalizations apply but I hold my belief that I personally would not like to do any time at all in prison and I think that most people agree with that sentiment.
a lesser number of people would agree with engine's statement but I believe I'm one of those as well.
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I approve of the death penalty but not as a means of torture or even vengeance. It's a means of removing a dangerous predator from society so that they never put others in harm again.
We put down animals that are a danger to people or that are too sick to allow to suffer. The same should apply to people that prey on society. A child molester rapist or other deviant should not be punished in a like manner to their crimes, just put them down. Do not enjoy it but do so reluctantly as the last means of protecting those who do not deserve to be his / her prey.
Punishment is vengeance, otherwise there would be no reason to do it.
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Heinous crimes such as committed by this guy deserve a severe penalty. Iran overdid it. A typical public hanging would have sufficed imo.
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I ask this because just such an execution actually happened last Sunday.
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My "this smells fishy-o-meter" went off so I checked. This is sorta true if you mean last Sunday in 2005.
On March 16, 2005, in front of a crowd of about 5,000, his shirt was removed and he was handcuffed to an iron post, where he received his lashings from different judicial officials. He fell to the ground more than once during the punishment, but did not cry out. A relative of one of the victims managed to get by security and stab Bijeh. A blue nylon rope was then put around his neck and he was hoisted about 10 meters in the air by a crane until he died. He was hanged in Pakdasht, Iran, the town near the desert area where the killings occurred.
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No to public executions. Such a thing would turn into a farce overnight. Televised maybe......Pay to view sure, with proceeds going to the victims and survivors.
Hangings, beheadings, puncturing, shooting are also of no use to me. Simple euthanasia would suffice. Dead as soon as the juice hits the veins, just like our infirm and diseased pets. I dont support capitol punishment as a form of vengence or retribution. I support it as a means of a society defending itself from those very few individuals who are so broken that they cannot be salvaged and are a lethal threat to all as long as they are alive. Those types need to be destroyed quickly, quietly, without prejuduce and with dignity. Read them their last rites......and send them on their way to eternity.
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We have had some heated discussions here regarding the death penalty in the past, and some have argued that executing the worst offenders in public would be a very good thing to do. But tell me, do you honestly believe that would be desirable? I ask this because just such an execution actually happened last Sunday.
Iran executed a man who was convicted of sexually raping and murdering 16 young boys over a long period of time. He was sentenced to 100 lashes for the rapes. The judge also gave him 16 separate death sentences. Because the court imposed multiple death sentences, it was deemed appropriate by public officials for him to die slowly. So instead of a typical quick hanging, a mother of one of the murdered boys was allowed to tie a noose around his neck, and he was then slowly lifted up by a construction crane, causing him to slowly strangle to death.
But he first had the 100 lashes applied. Multiple public officials had to be used to administer the beating, as they became too exhausted from giving him so many blows. While he was being beaten, an overflow crowd of over 5,000 people from the small town where the murders took place watched and cheered wildly. Dozens of people in the crowd also threw rocks at him, during the beating. One relative of one of the young boys even managed to slip through the security. He stabbed the murderer once in the back with a knife, while he was still handcuffed to the post he was being beaten at. The relative was seized and taken into custody, so the execution could then proceed. But the police released him afterwards, with no charges filed against him.
While one can argue that justice was done here, is this really civilized behavior?? Would we really want to act like the Islamic extremists do in Iran?? It seems to me that we would lose something as a society and a culture if we did.
The name of the condemned man was "Mohammed Bijeh". Don't Google his name unless you have a strong stomach. There were a number of Iranian photojournalists present at the hanging.
Interestingly, the accomplice that helped Bijeh actually kidnap the boys, only got a sentence of 100 lashes and 15 years in prison. He did not actually participate in the rapes or murders themselves. So he consequently was not charged with those crimes, even though he facilitated them by helping to seize the boys.
I believe that in a lot of Western countries he probably would have been charged with murder too. Although I surely don't claim to be any legal expert.
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Not only do I support it. but I wouldnt be opposed to this type of justice being used here in such circumstances as well.
Allowing the mother to participate.. Bravo!
Is it civilized behaviour?
We as a species are no more civilized now then we were 2000 years ago.
We are merely more tecnologically advanced.
The only difference between the human animal now, and 2000 years ago.
Is the types of projectiles we throw at each other.
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There some incredibly evil people in the world and sometimes you just have to thin the herd.If theres glaring no doubt about it proof,then put them down.
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That turd in Iran got no less than he deserved. But what happened there has no parallels to the Death penalty here except that in the end, the guy was dead. We should set a standard and do it consistently...put 'em down quick and move on.
But what is a reasonable standard?
Right now, all executions in the USA are currently on hold, as the US Supreme Court will soon be hearing an appeal that claims that even using lethal injection is cruel and unusual
punishment.
How does one kill someone, without being cruel to them to some extent??
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no one called it animal abuse if you killed a rat
Actually, a man here in Oregon a few years ago was charged with animal cruelty for killing a rat in his backyard.
However, the judge hearing the case fortunately threw the charges out, and the homeowner was never convicted of anything.
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My "this smells fishy-o-meter" went off so I checked. This is sorta true if you mean last Sunday in 2005.
Man, you are right. I just happened upon a web page that had some info, and did not notice any year being mentioned.
This indeed did happen two years ago last Sunday.
Sorry for being so unobservant regarding the date. The facts that I reported of what happened do appear to be consistent with all reports I've seen ( other than having the year wrong ).
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Slave labor is the solution.
Instead of death penalty, make 'em work. They dont work, they dont eat. Simple as that. The bleeding humanists can cry all they want but they'll change their tune the moment one of these people kills their kid. Ho boy do opinions change then dont they?
is the person innocent? Slavery is 100% reversible and hey, can make millions in compensation lawsuits. Consider 100 million lawsuit for 10 years slave labor thats 10 mill a year. How many people can say they make that? Not many.
Deterrent? Perhaps not. There's never a deterrent against murderers and psychos. However, spending tax money on building them a hotel, restaurant, exercise facilities,an entertainment room, medical services and provide them with security services 24/7 and getting a measly amount of money from the inmates (making license plates? sure thats a profitable venture) is a very bad policy IMO.
I say put 'em to work in construction of gov. projects. Roads, farmlands, etc.
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Sig220, this is a great subject to take the anti death penalty position on, because logic is on your side...it's also a great subject for trolling because the pro death penalty people know they're right, they just don't know why.
If it were me, and I were to debate the death penalty (and troll the thread), I would point out that anywhere between 200 to 340 prisoners condemned to death have had their convictions overturned thanks to DNA evidence...one could logically assume, since DNA is a relitavely new science, that there's a good possibility we executed innocent men before DNA testing, so throw out this quote-
"Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent."
-Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., 1994
This, of course, will get the pro death penalty crowd aroused- and one of them, not knowing the facts, will state they are pro capital punishment because they don't want to feed and clothe a prisoner forever...so you point out that, due to the appeals process, it costs more money to execute someone than it does to warehouse them forever.
A rebuttal from a death penalty advocate, of course, will be that we need less appeals then...(as has actually been done bt the Bush admin., BTW)...Your response will be that with less appeals, we will execute even more innocents...and put a rolls-eyes thingie or a (doh) at the end of your response...I call that the "chum," and it should get a like response from your opponents.
Then, no matter what is said in rebuttal, you wonder aloud if the people in favor of the death penalty feel that way because we execute a disportionate amount of minorities...it's important to ask this rhetorically, but if done correctly you should start getting some angrier responses from the pro crowd...so, once the pro crowd is sufficiently chummed and in a feeding frenzy, you drop your bait-
"Anyone who supports the Death Penalty is no better than those Iranians who tortured that poor man to death." The fact that "poor man" tortured and killed children will have the pro crowd frothing at the mouth, wanting to give YOU 100 lashes and hang YOU from a crane...
So now you sit back, pour yourself a drink and watch the show. Your initial arguments should have attracted allies to your cause, so let them carry the fight- it's only a matter of time before someone alerts Skuzzy to the thread and he comes in with a lock and swinging his ban stick, and the last thing you want is to have Skuzzy reading your posts...but since he rarely investigates problem threads more than two pages back you'll be OK...it's your friends who support you and the enemies who oppose you who'll get in trouble, not you.
If done well you'll have made your point plus trolled effectively, all in the same thread- and, if someone who was on your side got sucked into the debate to the point they got banned, that's a troll orgasm.
Of course I don't troll..not here, anyway...the fish in this stream have seen every kind of bait there is, so no matter how artfully you present it they're still pretty savvy, and the local game warden, Skuzzy, doesn't allow fishing in this stream- And likewise I don't debate the death penalty. I do believe that people 100 years from now will think we're somewhat barbaric for having a death penalty, and I think it's wrong for a civilized society to execute people... but you'll never catch me at San Quentin on the eve of an execution holding a candle in memoriam of some thug who is being executed for maybe three of the dozen murders he committed...
But if I did troll, and I did have more than a casual intrest in the issue, that's how I'd play it.
:D
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and here is the whole death penalty club on earth showed (red color)
just for those who like to avoid it ;)
(http://www.deathwatchinternational.org/images/world_map.gif)
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I have always been against the death penalty for two reasons.
1. The courts may, and have made mistakes when convicting someone. You cant reverse a death penalty.
2. Killing someone is offering them a quick way out. Let them rot.
I've always thought that #1 reason was kind of shallow, (no offense) because the court can't give you back the 25 years of your life that you would spend in prison if wrongfully convicted either.
The court must be as sure as possible when convicting regardless of the penalty.
I am against the death penalty because if we are not proud enough to do it in public, then we should not be doing it.
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and here is the whole death penalty club on earth showed (red color)
just for those who like to avoid it ;)
(http://www.deathwatchinternational.org/images/world_map.gif)
Man look at all the weaklings in gray.
Heres a solution.
If your against the death penalty. Move to one of the gray countries,
As for me. I say torture em to death in public.
and let the families of the victims have forst crack at em
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I am against the death penalty because if we are not proud enough to do it in public, then we should not be doing it.
Shouldn't the same apply to all penalties?
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Shouldn't the same apply to all penalties?
How does one incarcerate someone in public?
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hmm.. seems that most of the your-0-peeans don't believe in the death penalty.. must be a good idea then.
lazs
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How does one incarcerate someone in public?
Stocks? :D