Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on March 24, 2008, 05:04:56 PM
-
link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/BusinessTravel/story?id=4513875&page=1)
A US Airways pilot accidentally discharged his gun in the cockpit during a flight from Denver to Charlotte, N.C., according to the Transportation Safety Administration.
The round was discharged by the pilot in the left seat and did not result in depressurization, according to government aviation sources.
The Airbus A319 landed safely after the incident Saturday and without any injuries to the 124 passengers on board.
Why was there a round in the chamber? :huh
They were very lucky the bullet did'nt riccochet and hit someone or something vital. To quote The Hunt For Red October "most things in here don't react well to bullets."
-
No longer do you have to worry about crazy terrorists with bombs.. you just have to worry about drunk pilots with guns..
-
There is no way this could have happened.
I have seen enough Hollywood documentaries to know that if any sort of gun goes off in an airliner, the fuselage rips open, the people all get sucked out into space and even the seats get ripped loose from the floor and go spinning out into the atmosphere.
So this is all a media hoax.
-
There is no way this could have happened.
I have seen enough Hollywood documentaries to know that if any sort of gun goes off in an airliner, the fuselage rips open, the people all get sucked out into space and even the seats get ripped loose from the floor and go spinning out into the atmosphere.
So this is all a media hoax.
:lol
-
link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/BusinessTravel/story?id=4513875&page=1)
Why was there a round in the chamber? :huh
Yeah, it should have been disassembled, the magazine empty, the bullets in a separate place and a trigger lock on the frame like the DC gun laws require. :rolleyes:
Seriously, do you think they should have to dig it out of the flightkit and jack a round into the chamber when some looney crashes the cockpit door?
Where this guy is going to get slammed is having it out of the holster for no good reason. Unless some looney was crashing the cockpit door at the time; maybe we should all just wait for the final FAA/TSA report?
-
Well, shame on me. Turns out he was on approach to Charlotte so I'm sure the airplane was essentially depressurized. No wonder all the people didn't get sucked out.
We'll have to wait and see what happens when one goes off ~ 8 psid at altitude. :)
-
Yeah, it should have been disassembled, the magazine empty, the bullets in a separate place and a trigger lock on the frame like the DC gun laws require. :rolleyes:
Seriously, do you think they should have to dig it out of the flightkit and jack a round into the chamber when some looney crashes the cockpit door?
Where this guy is going to get slammed is having it out of the holster for no good reason. Unless some looney was crashing the cockpit door at the time; maybe we should all just wait for the final FAA/TSA report?
Seriously, yes I do. It takes less than .5 seconds to jack a round in the chamber. The door is locked and reinforced, he should have ample warning that he needs to load a round. I'm not saying he needs to keep 1 bullet in his left shirt pocket. I'm saying he needs to use proper gun safety. Full clip in the gun, chamber empty. What if he was in severe turbulence and it went off injuring himself or the co-pilot?
They were very lucky.
-
Odds are he was very stupid. They use a HK .40 and it's required to be holstered unless needed. Holstered guns with the safety on don't go off. He had to be handling it, while on approach, for no good reason.
Personally, I was suprised they picked HK. Heavy gun and I'd think a Glock, S&W M&P or a Springfield XD would be safer...especially the XD with the grip safety along with the trigger safeties.
-
I agree with Toad. I have to say this kind of incident was inevitable once they armed pilots. It's not Barney Fife, it's Homer Simpson. There's always one. Next time, the fool will hit something vital or the other pilot.
-
I have no idea if he was handling the weapon or not. I realy doubt he was, but you never know. I am pretty sure the safety was off and there was a round in the chamber. Poor gun safety, thus me calling him Barney Fife.
-
Well, I'm stumped then.
How does a gun go off by itself?
The HK USP40 Compact – LEM is the gun issued. It does not have an external safety. It has internal safeties and a trigger pull of a minimum of 7.5 lbs.
-
Firing pin hit the primer?
-
I got no problem with a round being in the chamber,though the first sentence in the training manual should be "it aint a toy, don't play with it".
shamus
-
The gun's just laying there and the firing pin decides to leap out and hit the primer? How exactly does that work? Does HK have self-aware firing pins?
The trigger has to be pulled to get the gun to go off. You are familiar with the internal safeties? The designs that basically originated with Glock? On this HK the trigger has to be pulled to bypass the passive safeties.
-
Toad, I suppose you've never hit rough air on final? If the chamber was empty, this would have never happened.
-
I never hit rough air that could pull the trigger on a pistol, especially a trigger that was on a holstered gun.
IIRC, my buds that are in the FFDO program said the gun has to be holstered until drawn for use.
I'm sorry but there isn't a way for an HK USP40 Compact – LEM to go off without the trigger being pulled. Not rough air, not coriolis effect, not a sudden shift into a different astral plane... nope... someone or something has to pull the trigger and that just doesn't happen to a properly holstered pistol.
-
I have no idea
This is really the crux of your position here. You don't know. There isn't enough info released yet to know. You have no idea if the safety was on or off. Don't let that stand in the way of your assumptions however.
If you think that the weapon will discharge all by itself in it's holster you lack a basic understanding of how it works.
-
I never hit rough air that could pull the trigger on a pistol, especially a trigger that was on a holstered gun.
IIRC, my buds that are in the FFDO program said the gun has to be holstered until drawn for use.
I'm sorry but there isn't a way for an HK USP40 Compact – LEM to go off without the trigger being pulled.
That's a bold statement. But, will you dispute that if there was no round in the chamber it would make it exponentially harder for it to happen?
-
It's bold but true. Did you know that Glocks with similar internal safties have the highest rate of accidental (read "negligent") discharge amongst the various police forces?
Partially this is because an awful lot of PD's use Glocks.
But to my knowledge, and I've done some research, they have never been able to prove a Glock went off for any other reason except that the trigger was pulled. Can't drop them and make them go off, can't stare hard at them and make them go off, can't shake them and make them go off..well, you get the idea.
Now, are you also aware that a significant percentage of ND's occur when a round is being chambered? Probably the most common action that generates an unintended discharge. Think about that.
I will however concede that even an HK with a self-aware, living firing pin cannot fire an empty chamber.
Now all you have to do is get the TSA to change the rules for the FFDO program and direct the pilots to carry empty-chambered pistols. Then when some looney crashes through the cockpit door and catches the guy frantically trying to chamber a round, we can change the rule back. :)
-
You have no idea if the safety was on or off.
Mav, the only gun the FFDO's are allowed to carry is the issue HK USP40 Compact – Law Enforcement Modification. It has no external safety.
-
Ah but Toad, RPM said the safety was off in his earlier post. You know, the one where he was saying the gun would go off by itself.
-
THIS is one reason I only carry revolvers. I do own a .40, a .380 and .45 ACP auto though
-
What would that reason be?
-
Revolvers are safer by nature of their design. PLEASE listen - I am NOT saying autos are unsafe - just that revolvers are a better choice for me and those who I know have limited experience with guns.
-
Ah but Toad, RPM said the safety was off in his earlier post. You know, the one where he was saying the gun would go off by itself.
Well Mav, to be fair I was replying to Toad that the safety was on. You need to nail Toad for saying the guy was playing with the gun when it went off as well. At this point none of us know and we are all speculating what happened.
My point is empty chamber, no discharge. That's a basic gun safety point.
-
I've got both as well. As it happens, I favor a revolver for carry.
However, that's not because it is safer. The newer (Glock, M&P, XD) loaded autos are exactly like a loaded revolver in that they will fire every time you pull the trigger.
The difference is the chance of a mechanical failure to chamber/fire the second round is a little higher with an auto than a revolver.
As for safety, I see no significant difference between the internal safety pistols and the revolvers.
YMMV.
-
My point is empty chamber, no discharge. That's a basic gun safety point.
My point is no trigger pull on an HK USP40 LEM, no discharge. That's a basic fact of how the gun operates.
So, no trigger movement, no discharge. Kind of hard to pull the trigger if no one is handling it.
-
.....
My point is empty chamber, no discharge. That's a basic gun safety point.
Actually, the bullets can still go off even if not chambered, all you need is contact with the primer. However if it not chambered there is nothing to direct the force and you basically have a tiny grenade with minimal damage. (happend to a friend of my who thought he had loaded a dud.....it wasn't)
-
You just can't admit if there was no round in the chamber this incident would not have happened, can you?
-
RPM,
An empty chamber on a weapon to be used in extremis is a bad idea. You may think it will take a half second to make the weapon ready but from actual experiance I can tell you that it will take about a second to even draw it from a holster if they are smart enough to use one that can be accessed while seated and belted in. Now take an individual who is not highly trained and doesn't have a reasonable expectation of facing the use of the weapon every day and you are likely to have someone who will bobble the action trying to chamber a round. It also takes 2 hands to do so and that might be awkward if he is hand flying at the time.
IMO this will be a case of a pilot who was doing something they shouldn't have been doing at the time.
-
I will however concede that even an HK with a self-aware, living firing pin cannot fire an empty chamber.
I already did. The point, of course, is that TSA directs that the pistol have a round chambered.
Now can you admit that a HK USP40-LEM won't fire unless the trigger is pulled?
-
I will admit an HK USP40-LEM with no round in the chamber won't fire.
We don't know the condition of the weapon, the handling of the weapon or the circumstances surrounding the discharge. Tell me, was this weapon ever dropped? Was the safety in working order? Was the weapon holstered on his hip or in his flightkit? Were ther any loose items in his flightkit? WE DON'T KNOW.
I guess the NRA safety course I took was all a bunch of baloney. They said keep the chamber empty. But, what does a bunch of liberal gun haters like the NRA know about guns anyway.
Mav, (and maybe Toad will verify this) cockpit doors are now reinforced and locked during flight. Nobody is going to waltz into a cockpit without some warning to the occupants.
-
Now, are you also aware that a significant percentage of ND's occur when a round is being chambered? Probably the most common action that generates an unintended discharge. Think about that.
Very very very true - just about ever AD/ND (Accidental Discharge/Negligent Discharge) happens when the round is chambered (the actual action), OR someone is messing around + happens to have finger on the trigger of a "cocked & unlocked" firearm.
My guess was the guilty crew member was "playing pocket pool" with his pistol when it happened.
-
I will admit an HK USP40-LEM with no round in the chamber won't fire.
Well, if you want to pretend that means anything go ahead.
We don't know the condition of the weapon, the handling of the weapon or the circumstances surrounding the discharge.
Well, we know two things for certain: 1) the pistol had a round in the chamber and 2) the HK USP40-LEM is designed to release the firing pin ONLY when the trigger is pulled and that it has an excellent safety record.
Tell me, was this weapon ever dropped?
Don't know, but it wouldn't matter. The internal safeties disconnect the firing pin so that it cannot contact the primer without the trigger being pulled.
Was the safety in working order?
There are actually mutlitple internal safties that prevent the firing pin from striking the primer unless the trigger is pulled. Simultaneous failures are highly unlikely.
Was the weapon holstered on his hip or in his flightkit?
You can rest assured that if it was properly holstered in either one of those conditions the gun would not have fired.. The HK went off because a minimum 7.5 pound trigger pull was overcome by pressure against the trigger.
Were ther any loose items in his flightkit? WE DON'T KNOW.
But we know the trigger was pulled by someone or something. It didn't pull by itself.
They said keep the chamber empty. But, what does a bunch of liberal gun haters like the NRA know about guns anyway.
Boy, beats me what they know. I took a CCH course and they said only a fool carries an empty gun and expects to do anything with it.
Mav, (and maybe Toad will verify this) cockpit doors are now reinforced and locked during flight. Nobody is going to waltz into a cockpit without some warning to the occupants.
Some cockpit doors are pretty weak. The earlier B-737's spring to mind. The MD-88's aren't too robust either. In general, the larger the plane the larger and stronger the cockpit door. We were always of the opinion that a big man would crash right through a 737-200 door by the very nature of the door. Any of the aircraft that have big "blowout panels" in their cockpit doors to equalize pressure in case of rapid decompression are not in the strong cockpit door category.
-
Nobody ever said carry an empty weapon. Keep the chamber empty until ready to use.
The weapon may be designed not to fire, but once again, we don't know what happened. Maybe he was showing off his quickdraw, maybe the weapon took a shock from aircraft moving, maybe the round just cooked off. I'm sure we will find out.
-
Boy, beats me what they know. I took a CCH course and they said only a fool carries an empty gun and expects to do anything with it.
What CCH course teaches it's students to not know the difference between an empty gun and a chambered round? Or was that just a poor paraphrase? :)
-
Flaps? Yup. Do we have clearance Clarence? Roger Roger.Hows my vector Victor? Gear down?Yup. Well looks like a good round trip.Round?let me check.Snick BLAM oops.
-
link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/BusinessTravel/story?id=4513875&page=1)
Why was there a round in the chamber? :huh
They were very lucky the bullet did'nt riccochet and hit someone or something vital. To quote The Hunt For Red October "most things in here don't react well to bullets."
Perhaps because it can take a couple of seconds to chamber a round??? And by then you would be dead. All police officers carry their guns with a round in the chamber too.
This just goes to show that handguns are not as big a danger on airliners as many have attempted to make them out to be. For nothing bad happened in this incident.
The news reported that the pilot had been issued a Heckler & Koch .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol. If it was their popular USP model, those handguns have safeties on them, and that gives one a false sense of security. Their model 2000 has no manual safety, but does have one installed in the trigger, which is the proper location for a handgun safety.
Both of my SIG pistols have absolutely no safety of any kind on them to worry about. While both my Glock 17 and Smith and Wesson M&P 40c both have safeties built into their triggers. So I never have to worry about having to take a safety off when I use any of my handguns.
The only really effective gun safety is the human brain.
_____________________________ __
-
RPM has a secret love affair with Sherrif Taylor and Deputy Fife is blocking paradise.
Sad, but nuff said.
Mac
-
Perhaps because it can take a couple of seconds to chamber a round??? And by then you would be dead. All police officers carry their guns with a round in the chamber too.
A couple seconds? You using black powder ball & cap?
Again, basic firearm safety. Keep the chamber empty until ready to use. Don't argue with me, argue with the NRA.
-
A couple seconds? You using black powder ball & cap?
It takes a couple seconds. This is the proof often overlooked when people try to poo-poo the obvious Dealey Plaza conspiracy. No way LH Oswald could have squeezed off three shots in such little time.
-
It takes a couple seconds. This is the proof often overlooked when people try to poo-poo the obvious Dealey Plaza conspiracy. No way LH Oswald could have squeezed off three shots in such little time.
:noid
-
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered.
-
It's not SSI as far as I know but are you friggin kidding me about not having a round chambered? So you're supposed to be fending off the attacker with one hand, while drawing with the other and using your third hand cycle the slide to chamber a round? Yeah right. If you've been through the training RPM then you can comment. We're not on a gun range practicing in this instance, we're in a law enforcement role and if it were me you can be damn sure that I'm having a round chambered for more than a few reasons.
Most likely an issue with a new holster model in this case...
As Toad said the H&K USP.40 LEM has no external safety but a redone trigger pull making it different from the regular USP.40 Compact. The only way this gun is going off is if you pull the trigger so at some point it seems most likely that this guy pulled the trigger probably while adjusting the holster. There are a few ways to wear the gun but if you're carrying, you're supposed to be wearing when the cockpit door is closed. My own carry gun for the street is a Kimber Ultra Carry. It's bigger round, it's better size and feel and John Browning designed it make it a better weapon IMHO.
-
I wonder if the NRA has informed the various police agencies that they should carry with an empty chamber?
Cripes Ammighty, you'd think all the LEO's and FFDO's were armed with Colt Peacemakers!
-
If you had to carry semi autos with the chamber empty they would be about 10 times less useful than the worst revolver.
Do you guys think cops carry their glocks or even 1911's with an empty chamber?
The only way a modern handgun will fire is if the trigger is pulled. If it fires any other way it is a major malfunction.
and.. accidents will happen... in all this time it has only been one on an airliner.. the net result was.. no harm at all... mostly... unless their was extreme bad luck.. that is the result you would expect. In most accidental discharges.. the result is no harm.
The reason for most of these discharges with the new breed of semiautos is that they have a relatively short trigger travel to make em useful in what is, in essence, a double action only design... the trigger is relatively light as well..
What then happens is that the semi auto guy puts his finger in the trigger guard before he wants to shoot the gun.. the gun doesn't know he doesn't want to shoot tho. It only knows that someone is pressing on its trigger.. bang.
Finally... it matters not to me.. just like accidental discharges by cops don't make me want to disarm cops.. This does not make me want to disarm pilots. Bet the guy never does it again.
lazs
-
Just for fun check out CNN's internet piece today on the Air Marshal program. Less than 1% of flights covered daily, significant attrition in the Air Marshal ranks without replacements.... the sizzle not the steak.
Feel safer now? I think I predicted this back in 2001. There's not really much more air transport security now than there was then.
-
Flaps? Yup. Do we have clearance Clarence? Roger Roger.Hows my vector Victor? Gear down?Yup. Well looks like a good round trip.Round?let me check.Snick BLAM oops.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Doc you slay me.
shamus
-
RPM,
Others have already confirmed what I told you in my post. Your apology is accepted.
-
Wow RPM, you should go to some of those "NRA" classes again..... maybe find the one not run buy the one liberal in the NRA ;)
Just go to an HK board and tell them the USP can fire without a trigger pull and watch the flames!
-
But, what does a bunch of liberal gun haters like the NRA know about guns anyway.
Hey! Lets not start one of those GOA vs NRA flame wars here.
Charon
-
RPM,
An empty chamber on a weapon to be used in extremis is a bad idea. You may think it will take a half second to make the weapon ready but from actual experiance I can tell you that it will take about a second to even draw it from a holster if they are smart enough to use one that can be accessed while seated and belted in. Now take an individual who is not highly trained and doesn't have a reasonable expectation of facing the use of the weapon every day and you are likely to have someone who will bobble the action trying to chamber a round. It also takes 2 hands to do so and that might be awkward if he is hand flying at the time.
IMO this will be a case of a pilot who was doing something they shouldn't have been doing at the time.
Mav,
You very elegantly made the case for those who oppose guns in the cockpit....
-
Because we sure don't need armed FFDO's when we've got all those Sky Marshals covering... uh... well... less than 1% of our flights. :)
-
Toad,
I don't care if they are armed or not......so you can save the sarcasm for somebody else.
Carry if they want...don't carry if they want....
But like our mothers used to tell us....you'll put your eye out, kid...there's always some idiots that prove the rule...
-
I think I did Stringer. It's directed at those who oppose guns in the cockpit. Since you are apparently not one of those it was directed at someone else.
Having a bad day?
-
Yep....sry....assumed there...you know what that makes me :)
-
Stringer,
I wasn't trying to make a point about not arming the pilots at all. I am very much in favor of it in fact. That does not change the fact that if they choose to be armed they may not make the best choice in holster. Couple that with the fact that they are flying first and defending second in normal priority, they may need more time to draw than quick draw RPM seems to need to draw and rack the slide. That was my entire point. Frankly speaking I had a fairly fast draw for a "street" style holster and it would take me more than a half second to get on target without racking the slide in competition.
I don't expect an armed pilot to be the best line of defense, I expect them to be the very last line of defense in keeping control of the aircraft. The passengers are now the front line.
-
Letterman had a great Top10 on it tonight.
A few of my favorites:
That's what happens when you let Dick Cheney fly a commercial plane. What did you expect?
The pilot misunderstood the towers instructions of "your clear to land" for "Hey fire off a few rounds".
You want gun safety? Fly United!
-
Just for fun check out CNN's internet piece today on the Air Marshal program. Less than 1% of flights covered daily, significant attrition in the Air Marshal ranks without replacements.... the sizzle not the steak.
Feel safer now? I think I predicted this back in 2001. There's not really much more air transport security now than there was then.
Bag most of the new security measures and cockpit cowboys and I'd still feel plenty safe... and a lot less inconvenienced. The reinforced doors were a good idea, I think. I'm sure there are a couple of others that were good too. Getting crazy over some shampoo or nail clippers or little scissors or a lighter or making me take off my shoes or putting guns in the hands of folks who may or may not have any business handling a firearm... is retarded and expensive and doesn't make me feel any safer.
-
You'd be surprised how much damage you can do with relatively small, sharp implements (Carotid artery etc immediately spring to mind - and while it takes up to a couple of mins, unless you happen to get immediate medical help, your basically stuffed)
Binary explosives (two parts) can be concealed as a liquid, gel (shampoo, water etc). Combine them, add an appropriate detonator - your stuffed
Shoes and lighters are courtesy of that numbskull Richard Reid (Shoebomber) - would you take chances?
Personally, I feel safer knowing there is someone onboard armed - that said, I'd feel even safer if I was armed (errrrr, maybe). Accidents happen - not knowing much about these weapons, i'm not saying nowt lol.
Was he playing with it - possible.
Did it catch on something - possible (but unlikely imo)(and without knowing holster configuration I'm pretty much guessing)
Would it have fired if trigger had not been pulled - nope
Is it useful to have any weapon "for immediate use" with an empty chamber - nope - I was taught to carry with a full mag, one up, ready to go. Mind, I was also taught good gun control etc.
Just my 0.001p worth,
Wurzel
-
"You'd be surprised how much damage you can do with relatively small, sharp implements (Carotid artery etc immediately spring to mind - and while it takes up to a couple of mins, unless you happen to get immediate medical help, your basically stuffed)
Once upon a time, some airliners were hijacked with box knives and the hijackers allowed control of the aircraft in the hopes that their demands (whatever they were) would be met or there would be a compromise and all would end well. We all saw the result, and no one will be hijacking an airliner anytime soon with a small, sharp implement... Regardless of their ability to inflict damage to the human body.
Binary explosives (two parts) can be concealed as a liquid, gel (shampoo, water etc). Combine them, add an appropriate detonator - your stuffed
That's "you're stuffed", and I'm not concerned. Life comes with risks, and if someone is going to go to the time and trouble to figure out bringing a binary explosive and detonator on a plane and it happens to be the plane I'm on, then I guess my # is up. I suppose you could smuggle some C4 up your kiester too, but I doubt cavity searches are going to be on the menu any time soon. Although, as long as it makes us safe, it may be worth that inconvenience.
Shoes and lighters are courtesy of that numbskull Richard Reid (Shoebomber) - would you take chances?
Yes, I would. Will we be taking off our pants when some other numbskull straps a bomb to the inside of his leg under his jeans?
Personally, I feel safer knowing there is someone onboard armed - that said, I'd feel even safer if I was armed (errrrr, maybe). Accidents happen - not knowing much about these weapons, i'm not saying nowt lol.
I would NOT feel safer with a bunch of armed people on the plane. I'm mostly indifferent about the pilots being armed, but I think it's more likely to cause problems than to solve them. So far the score on that one is 1 for problems caused 0 for problems solved (unless I've missed something... unlikely, 'cause I'm a genius, but still possible, I suppose).
-
Point conceded on the firearms - it really doesnt bother me one way or the other.
Because it inconveniences you, you want all the other security measures stopped also. Thats fine, as long as you are the only person on that plane, and flying it yourself. I find them inconvenient also, but thats the price of flying at this period in time.
The 9/11 hijackings were the reason these were bought into play, to try and prevent them happening again (note the use of the word try - nothing in infallible).
Not so long ago - there was an attempt to smuggle binary explosives onboard a commercial flight - hence the restrictions on those too. Shoes and lighters were used by that chump to blow up a plane - hence the bans on those (I dont agree with them either).
If your number is up, and your willing to accept that risk, great. I do however, fail to see how the rest of the passengers on a flight should be taken down with you - unless they accept the same risks as you. And that is the point of the checks/searches etc being carried out. Also, smuggling c4 up the backside is possible - hell of a way to go tho :D......(sniffer dogs are at most airports to try and prevent that also though)
and i'll pass on the cavity search as well thankee kindly - exit only on this callsign. :P
Wurzel
-
CNN is reporting that US Air intends to terminate the pilot involved, Langenhahn.
There is an interesting film out there of the holster and lock the FFDOs are required to use.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bqOLjEli6yY
Of course, even the holster/lock explanation has trigger pull required to fire the gun. The self-aware firing pin is still not on the table. ;)