Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oakranger on March 26, 2008, 04:38:02 PM
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I am in Kansas is this one person that 99% of kansas want his out. Thank god we have the "kansas patroit guard" to stop him.
Kansas House passes funeral-picketing bill, awaits Senate action
The Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - The House has passed a new funeral-picketing bill.
The 123-0 vote Wednesday continues the bill's fast track to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, who says she will sign it. All that remains is for the Senate to agree with the House's version and send it to her.
A funeral-picketing law was enacted last year, but a Kansas Supreme Court ruling two weeks ago kept it from going into effect. Legislators moved quickly to re-enact the same law, minus the provision the court struck down.
The law was prompted by the Rev. Fred Phelps and his followers protesting at funerals of U.S. soldiers killed in combat.
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1. take it to the O'Club. That's what the O'Club is for.
2. Learn to spell and to write coherently. In life, you will not be able to cut and paste text all the time.
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Funeral-picking? Bah! It's the funeral-vultching you gotta watch out for.
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I am a member of the Patriot Guard Riders of Texas.......................a nd I`m not sure I can decipher what he is trying to say.
But whatever....yeah......Go Patriot Guard of Kansas.
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HUH :confused: Since he didn't state what the law is supposed to do or even give a link to it how am i supposed to make a comment? Is the law for picketing or against? I know here in Illinois we have a law against picketing within i think 50 or 100 yards of a funeral. This was brought about by picketers at military funerals that actually marched around the funeral procession in the cemetary! Made me sick to watch that kind of garbage.
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I am in Kansas is this one person that 99% of kansas want his out.
What on earth does this mean?
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What on earth does this mean?
Don't be intolerant. Oakranger is arado3211324q's english teacher.
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Don't be intolerant. Oakranger is arado3211324q's english teacher.
:D
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Kansas is going to sign into law prohibitions on picketing. Personally I think this is a bad thing, because it is that speech we find offensive we must defend most vigorously, but I have no doubt many of you will think this is a good thing and try to justify stripping away even more of our civil rights.
So...who thinks this is a good idea, and why?
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Kansas is going to sign into law prohibitions on picketing. Personally I think this is a bad thing, because it is that speech we find offensive we must defend most vigorously, but I have no doubt many of you will think this is a good thing and try to justify stripping away even more of our civil rights.
So...who thinks this is a good idea, and why?
its not about the picketing , maybe if they didnt have posters thanking god for his death becouse he was a sinner and worked for the devel and such things just becouse he was in the armor it wouldnt have gotten to the point of establising a law against it. There is such a thing as right to peace and happyness you are alowed to do anything till it infringess on anothers rights which this set of MORONs were doing hers a link to the story and tell me people should NOT be protected in there most grievious moments. And if you dont think they should becouse you think its an inaliable right to picket THERE funeral your sadly mistaken this was not free speach but pure hate mongering.
doing.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280
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Kansas is going to sign into law prohibitions on picketing. Personally I think this is a bad thing, because it is that speech we find offensive we must defend most vigorously, but I have no doubt many of you will think this is a good thing and try to justify stripping away even more of our civil rights.
So...who thinks this is a good idea, and why?
Provocational picketing at a funeral is not a free speech issue. Its an issue of safety for those doing the provocation. You want to picket a soldiers death based upon homosexuality content? Go picket at the capitol. Last I heard its still allowed in 50 states.
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Ah...but almost all picketing is done to provoke. People protesting abortions hand out pictures of an aborted fetus- people burn our flag at anti war protests- look at the Nazis marching in goose step- it's all done to provoke. Once we start limiting the scope of what is acceptable forms and places of protest we've eroded that right.
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Prohibiting protesting at funerals deprives no one of a liberty they should have. Should people have the right to stage a march in a church? How about in a public school? Not protesting at funerals is just common sense and decency that shouldn't have had to be made law.
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Ah...but almost all picketing is done to provoke. People protesting abortions hand out pictures of an aborted fetus- people burn our flag at anti war protests- look at the Nazis marching in goose step- it's all done to provoke. Once we start limiting the scope of what is acceptable forms and places of protest we've eroded that right.
So its okay for War veterans to practice political speeches protesting against members of congress who want to pull out of Iraq at public schools then? I knew you'd eventually agree with me, most liberals do.
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Ah...but almost all picketing is done to provoke. People protesting abortions hand out pictures of an aborted fetus- people burn our flag at anti war protests- look at the Nazis marching in goose step- it's all done to provoke. Once we start limiting the scope of what is acceptable forms and places of protest we've eroded that right.
I am with airhead.
I also think groups like the patriot Riders are the best way to deal with them. Fight freedom with freedom.
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Picketing one's funeral for WHATEVER reason is just plain provocative and distasteful. Picketing a soldier's funeral (esp one KIA) who served/died to protect our freedom is deplorable.
Even if you don't agree with the war, that individual answered the call and stepped up in everyone elses place to leave his/her family and travel far away to fight threats to our great country. That individual and their family deserves nothing less than respect from every person that soldier represented, fought and died for. Period.
Any person protesting a soldier's funeral should be deported. That is a disrespect equal to burning a nation's flag and should be dealt with in the harshest manner. Those kind of actions serve no purpose other than strengthening our enemies.
Note: No. I am not a soldier. I am an American who unquestionably supports those in our military. I am a Patriot Guard Rider who has been to several funerals of our fallen heros and thankfully have never seen a protester. But if I ever do, it is my DUTY to see to it that that person is not seen or heard by the family or anyone else at the service.
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Picketing one's funeral for WHATEVER reason is just plain provocative and distasteful. Picketing a soldier's funeral (esp one KIA) who served/died to protect our freedom is deplorable.
Any person protesting a soldier's funeral should be deported. That is a disrespect equal to burning a nation's flag and should be dealt with in the harshest manner. Those kind of actions serve no purpose other than strengthening our enemies.
I think this is much worse than burning a flag. However that soldier gave his life to ensure these knuckleheads are able to practice their right to protest. Deporting them just takes away the very rights the soldier gave his life defending.
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No law required, just more Patriot Guard riders. :")
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Prohibiting protesting at funerals deprives no one of a liberty they should have. Should people have the right to stage a march in a church? How about in a public school? Not protesting at funerals is just common sense and decency that shouldn't have had to be made law.
I agree with the first part of what you say- it's not depriving them of a liberty they should have, but it is depriving them of a liberty that they do have....and are guaranteed.
Saying "well, yeah, but they are over the top, they are deliberately being provocative, they are trying to provoke civil unrest" is conjecture on our part- it's not up to us to examine the motives of protesters as much as it's up to us to defend their right- hell, ALL our right- to protest.
The second part- protesting in a church or a school- Churches are basically private property, so protesters are trespassing- if I had a church and a bunch of people used their first amendment rights on me I'd call in a bunch of my 2nd amendment friends and evoke my fourth amendment rights to clear my church. My second and fourth amendments trump your first amendment any day. :)
Schools? If I have a minor child in a public school I have a reasonable expectation you will not allow my minor child to be subjected to school sanctioned political POV displays. Sorry Rip, but we disagree- Schools at the primary level do not have the right to host controversial guests who will engage in political pitches. While my child is in their custody they have a responsibility, right? Or would you be OK with Cindy Sheehan coming to visit your kids' school assembly, talking about how illegal the Iraq war is?
But the right to protest on public property, without trespassing or otherwise violating ordinances currently in place, is what is being outlawed in Kansas....and the reasons are exactly what some of you state- Because we don't like what, and how, they're protesting.
Remember this when someone decides they don't like what you have to say, and how you say it.
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Schools are about as public property as you can get. You can't say it's not ok to protest there but it is ok to protest at a funeral. Well, you can say it but you would be inconsistent.
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I agree with the civil rights of free speech. It's when you are burying your brother that has fallen in war and while the casket is being lowered into the ground, a group of people that do not know or even care starts heckling your family and throwing things at the procession. Telling your dad that the "guy in the box is dead and it's a good thing". Spitting on your mom and saying "hey your baby died killing babies". Yelling things like "oh it's awsome your son died in the war maybe they'll stop the war now and it'll be too late for your son"!Picture 30 people surrounding the funeral of maybe 15 to 20 people who lost someone close to them. Picketing is now some sort of lets get people to beat on me so I can get it on film and sue kind of pastime. It's not freedom of speech it makes a mockery of it. How about let me talk with my hands to those people, it's "freedom of speech" right? It's communicating.
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Schools are about as public property as you can get. You can't say it's not ok to protest there but it is ok to protest at a funeral. Well, you can say it but you would be inconsistent.
Public property is best defined as where you can have free assembly- if you, me and a few other people assemble at the playground of a local elementary school I guarantee you we'll find out rather quickly we do not have the right to assemble there, especially while school is in session. The right to enter a public school is by permission only- we can't wander around unopposed, burning flags or chanting or having fake die-ins during 6th grade recess, but we CAN do that on the steps of City Hall and we can do that on our sidewalks and street corners.
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Airhead, I'm with you in regard to the right to assembly in public areas, and the right to free speech. I agree these idiots are within their rights to do that.
However, I also believe that a funeral is an inherently private affair. I believe a family has the right to expect privacy for this purpose.
So, in my opinion, if people seek to use assembly in a public area specifically to disrupt and harass other citizens who are engaged in an activity they are entitled to expect privacy for, then they are going beyond the scope of free speech. Their behavior then becomes abusive to the rights of the citizens they are harassing, thus their behavior becomes something a community can and should suppress.
Free speech allows you to express whatever opinion you wish without suppression from the government. However, it does not allow you to become abusive of other citizens.
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The aren't taking your freedom of speech or assembly away, they are just requiring you to do it at a respectfull distance. Is it really any different than a union striker not being allowed to picket inside a companies property? How about not being able to smoke were i work and having to be 15ft from the building/entrance? Isn't that interferring with my right to "pursuit of happiness"? No not IMO, it's asking me to be respectfull of the majority of people i work with. I may not like it but out of respect for others i can handle it. Somewhere, and i'm to lazy to do the research, it defines a "lawfull and unlawfull" assembly and i believe that is part of or an ammendment to the constitution?
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Public property is best defined as where you can have free assembly- if you, me and a few other people assemble at the playground of a local elementary school I guarantee you we'll find out rather quickly we do not have the right to assemble there, especially while school is in session. The right to enter a public school is by permission only- we can't wander around unopposed, burning flags or chanting or having fake die-ins during 6th grade recess, but we CAN do that on the steps of City Hall and we can do that on our sidewalks and street corners.
Whoa, you want to restrict what is defined as "public property" and where free speech can be practiced but claim to be libertarian in regards to free speech? How is that different from me saying that the public assembly at a funeral cannot be of a protest or demonstration nature?
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its not about the picketing , maybe if they didnt have posters thanking god for his death becouse he was a sinner and worked for the devel and such things just becouse he was in the armor it wouldnt have gotten to the point of establising a law against it. There is such a thing as right to peace and happyness you are alowed to do anything till it infringess on anothers rights which this set of MORONs were doing hers a link to the story and tell me people should NOT be protected in there most grievious moments. And if you dont think they should becouse you think its an inaliable right to picket THERE funeral your sadly mistaken this was not free speach but pure hate mongering.
you forgot the part that says...
"I is a professor of Urban Studies from Temple University Yo."
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A mortuary and cemetary are both examples of private property, not public. As such they are not the proper place for a public demonstration. A soldiers funeral is also not the place to try and make a change in public policy. Unless the policy makers are present your message to them will not be noted.
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I say we need to stage a mock funeral...
Publicise the Hell out of it.
Have the casket brought from the hearse to the grave.
All the protesters nearby....chanting their lil arses off...
and at the last minute have the lid pop open and a BIG HUGE Marine with a bat jumps out swingin.
:O
I'd bet after a few funerals the protests would stop... lack of protesters participation.
Mac
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Some people say picketing a funeral of a soldier is freedom of speech/right to protest. That soldier died protecting these and other freedoms. The ultimate in irony. I still say soldier funeral protesters cross the line of human decency and should be stripped of their citizenship and escorted to a border of their choice.
Funeral protesting does nothing more than harm a family's time of mourning for a loved one. It makes victims out of every relative, friend and attendee by denying a chance to pay last respects in a peaceful manor. The protest does not send a political message because nobody there agrees with it, otherwise they would not be in attendance in the first place. It only psycologically harms fellow citizens.
As far as I'm concerned, this falls under domestic terrorism. Protesting a soldier's funeral is something I would expect from a crazed individual who plans to hijack an aircraft and crash it into a bulding.....NOT something I would expect from someone who claims to be a citizen and supporter of this country.
People that would do either grew up wrong. Bad wrong. Here is an example of how sadly our times have changed:
In WWII, a mother lost all of her sons in combat. What did she do? She traveled the country selling war bonds.
Not too long back, a mother lost her son in Iraq in combat. What did she do? Turned into a leading anti-war protester.
Sad.
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Schools at the primary level do not have the right to host controversial guests who will engage in political pitches. While my child is in their custody they have a responsibility, right? Or would you be OK with Cindy Sheehan coming to visit your kids' school assembly, talking about how illegal the Iraq war is?
But the right to protest on public property, without trespassing or otherwise violating ordinances currently in place, is what is being outlawed in Kansas....and the reasons are exactly what some of you state- Because we don't like what, and how, they're protesting.
Remember this when someone decides they don't like what you have to say, and how you say it.
Once we start limiting the scope of what is acceptable forms and places of protest we've eroded that right.
A cemetary is private property.
Airhead...Double standard is thy name.
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But the right to protest on public property, without trespassing or otherwise violating ordinances currently in place, is what is being outlawed in Kansas
I could have sworn it was about funeral protests.
Cemetery=private property
Funeral home=private property
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Served my 20.
I'd gladly beat the bellybutton of a protester at a funeral.
Kinda brings their handsomehunkes closer to home.
Mac
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A cemetary is private property.
Airhead...Double standard is thy name.
If the issue were about protesting on private property then it'd be a moot point, because we don't have the right to protest on someone else's private property...Obviously we're talking about otherwise legal protest, right? What this bill does is limit what is actually being protested based upon the nature of that protest- we are banning this type of protest because we deem it offensive.
I don't see how I'm applying a double standard either, Rip- I agree with peoples' right to protest in a peaceful and lawful manner, and in the school assembly thread I also agreed with the principal's right to deem what is, and isn't, appropiate subjects to address at school assemblies.
You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
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To protest at the funeral of "anyone" is wrong. I'll piss on Jane Fondas grave after the dirt is cold. NOT during the funeral.
If you are so into yourself to think that "Freedom of Speech" covers yer bellybutton to protest at a befallen soldier, then yer bellybutton better understand my "Right to bear Arms".
I'll chase yer bellybutton to yer car and I hope you squeal as you run.
Mac
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Broken down simple like:
Problem
(http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/09/13/phelps1.jpg)
Solution
(http://www.patriotguard.org/Portals/0/header.jpg)
http://www.patriotguard.org/ (http://www.patriotguard.org/)
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well, I am disappointed....all I got were a few "yes, but it's so tasteless to protest at funerals" kinda posts (plus a couple of nonsensical i'll-beat-up-the protester ones) and I didn't get a discussion about the Bill of Rights.
I was hoping 2nd amendment Lazs would weigh in- after all, limiting protest is as much an assault on our 1st amendment rights as banning a bayonet lug on a rifle is an assault on his second amendment rights...or maybe a comment from Toad, who was so quick to condemn no knock warrant service as a violation of the 4th amendment...
But I guess when it all comes down to it we're only intrested in protecting the rights of- ourselves. If it's an issue that doesn't affect us personally then it doesn't matter to us.
(shrug) Anyways thanks for the discussion, such as it was.
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Agree completely Airhead.
It is kinda funny how many in here will voice thier contempt for ANY restrictions on a right to bear arms but will find restrictions or infringements on many other rights simply common sense.
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I find it contradictory that some will speak up for the right of people to protest at funerals but think a school is justifed in shutting off the mic of an invited speaker when she gets too christian. <insert old rolleyes here>
<edit>
Maybe those should do less lecturing and more practicing?
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See, now you want to restrict my right to freedom of religion.
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See, now you want to restrict my right to freedom of religion.
Only if it entails yelling epithets at funerals. I would restrict that part of it. Letting a person who has earned the right to speak at her graduation ceremony, unlike you and some others here in the past, that I would allow.
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Broken down simple like:
Solution
(http://www.patriotguard.org/Portals/0/header.jpg)
http://www.patriotguard.org/ (http://www.patriotguard.org/)
:aok
Yep.....and it is much more than shielding the families from the total idiots who protest at funerals.
Much, much more.
Check it out and get involved folks.
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Some of you need to try to put yourself in the place of one of these parents who just lost their child in this war. Shielding them from these lunatics is everyone's responsibilty. Organizing the Patriot Guard to do this is a good thing. However, is it really all that different from asking the police to do it?
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Some of you need to try to put yourself in the place of one of these parents who just lost their child in this war. Shielding them from these lunatics is everyone's responsibilty. Organizing the Patriot Guard to do this is a good thing. However, is it really all that different from asking the police to do it?
Some places there are not enough police officers to go around.
There are plenty of us. ;)
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If they pass the law there it won't take many police to handle the situation, maybe none. I think these people are cowards and won't risk jail time for their "convictions". Let them go protest in front of the gay bars or abortion clinics.
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However, is it really all that different from asking the police to do it?
Yes- it is a world of difference. The Patriot Guard holding a counter demonstration is more of a peer pressure situation- the Government banning protest is an official edict.
I agree 100% with those of you who say people protesting at funerals are tasteless, despicible, subhuman or whatever other name you wish to call them- I could never imagine being a party to deliberately causing pain to someone who has lost a child, at that most sensitive of time.
It is the worst incarnation of our first amendment rights- which means it is the form of free speech we must protect, as a society, the most.It's easy to defend that which you agree with, because you're thinking with your heart. It's much harder to defend that which you disagree with, because you have to think with your mind.
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Maybe you weren't around here a year or so ago Airhead, maybe you were. There was a situation wherein a graduating student was giving her Valedictorian speech and had her microphone cut off because she began to express her faith which she claimed as the reason for her success in school. If you are with the school, ACLU, and a few others here who believe this was not a violation of her constitutional right to freedom of speech then anything you have to say on the matter of free speech is as sounding brass to me.
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Ah...no, I was in O'Club prison last year and missed it- A few years ago in Oroville, Ca.(I think it was), they had warned a HS validvictorian against mentioning God in her speech...it caused a bit of controversery leading up to graduation. She approached the podium, and sneezed- and the entire audiance responded with a "God Bless you." I heard that on Paul Harvey, so it may or may not be true.
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There is such a thing as "protected speech" and speech that is not protected. Inciting to riot is one example of non protected speech as well as yelling fire in a theater, libeling others, disturbing the operation of a school and sedition. While it sounds rather noble to say all speech should be free it's a bit naive to really believe it.
You are free to criticise the govt. and that is what the first amendment was really about. The ability to make your grievances with the government heard by the government, not to belittle, denigrate, besmirch, or libel a fallen soldier and offend the family of the deceased service member during their funeral.
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Another overlooked benefit, for the most part, in the family`s request for PGR participation over the bringing in of uniformed Police officers in numbers is simple.
The funeral protesters will, on many occasions, make it a point to have arrests made for a certain number of participants.
Pictures and stories in the newspapers is their cup of tea.
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Maverick, I agree and understand with the first part of your post but I disagree with the second part of your post and will bet the ACLU will challenge this all the way to the Supreme Court the moment it's signed into law.
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well, I am disappointed....all I got were a few "yes, but it's so tasteless to protest at funerals" kinda posts (plus a couple of nonsensical i'll-beat-up-the protester ones) and I didn't get a discussion about the Bill of Rights.
snip
Sure you did, you just ignored the one that made sense because you don't want to hear it :)
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Maverick, I agree and understand with the first part of your post but I disagree with the second part of your post and will bet the ACLU will challenge this all the way to the Supreme Court the moment it's signed into law.
Let them challenge. Even if they win, there will always be more of us (PGR members) there than those terrorists.
I still cannot understand the logic of someone protesting the funeral of someone who GAVE THEIR LIFE protecting their right to protest. :rolleyes: Can someone PLEASE explain that one to me?
Those soldiers are the ONLY reason those protesters are not fed feet-first into a wood chipper in this country for doing such a despicable act as protest the funeral of it's nation's fallen soldiers. Go figure.
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(http://www.thankyouforserving.us/images/bflag.jpg)
(http://www.patriotguard.org/Portals/0/New%20Folder%202/Logo%20Patch%20Square.jpg)
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No law required, just more Patriot Guard riders. :")
Yup--member PGR of VA :aok
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Yup--member PGR of VA :aok
PGR of OK :aok
Salute Brother, Standing Silent in the Flag Line.
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PGR of AZ. and anyplace else we happen to be if a mission comes up.
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Amen
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PGR Alabama :salute
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I want them to keep picketing funerals of the the soldiers. If the keep it up one of the relative of the fallen soldiers are going to go postal on them. I just hope if that happens, the person is a good shot and has extra magazines.
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I want them to keep picketing funerals of the the soldiers. If the keep it up one of the relative of the fallen soldiers are going to go postal on them. I just hope if that happens, the person is a good shot and has extra magazines.
Tell me you really don't want to see that. You have no idea what you're saying.
I'm the father of a severly wounded soldier, and the mental anquish of that was enough. I can't imagine what the anquish is of a parent who's child doesn't return at all.
Even worse how much anquish they suffered to be pushed to the point of going postal. You're wishing for the worst a parent has to endure to degrade even furthur.
To all you PGR guys Thank You I never knew we had so many in the AH community. The PGR visited my son a couple of times in the hospital.
They also escorted a fallen soldier's funeral here in our town in Sept 2006.
My heartfelt thanks to all you PGR guys.
<S>
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My heartfelt thanks to all you PGR guys.
I consider it an honor when we are asked to participate by the family of those who have given their all for us and made the ultimate sacrifice.
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<S> Jackal
Mac
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Ever notice how a thread dies fast when others don't approve of your view?
Mac
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Ever notice how a thread dies fast when others don't approve of your view?
Mac
Huh?
Seems to me the longest threads consist of opposing viewpoints. The Patriot Riders are a great group and I applaude thier efforts. I only hope they understand that it takes a real patriot to uphold the rights of those who espouse ideas we find repugnant.
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Huh?
Seems to me the longest threads consist of opposing viewpoints. The Patriot Riders are a great group and I applaude thier efforts. I only hope they understand that it takes a real patriot to uphold the rights of those who espouse ideas we find repugnant.
this statement is axiomatic. we as citizens of a mostly open society have the obligation to uphold the rights of dissenting parties, if we do not then we are slipping backward to totalitarianism. as tasteless as this display is they are within their rights to hold them. I'm surprised they haven't been shot dead by a grieving parent, spouse or sibling, that in and of itself says volumes about how soft we have become.
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Huh?
Seems to me the longest threads consist of opposing viewpoints. The Patriot Riders are a great group and I applaude thier efforts. I only hope they understand that it takes a real patriot to uphold the rights of those who espouse ideas we find repugnant.
Ohh please enlighten us MT on what your view of what "a real patriot" would be?
"they" "we"?
Ya know what I find "repugnant" MT? The likes of liberals that espouse the idea that "their" thoughts, without "their" deeds, are the mainstay of American life.
*not an attack, just asking for clarification*
Now Spin....
This should be good.
Mac
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I was kinda hpoing this one would die a silent death because I was defending people I find morally repugnant, but it didn't, which is OK cause I still had one more thing to say that I think is important, to me at least-
Shifty, please tell your son I said thank you. I appreciate his sacrifice and pray for his recovery. God Bless you and yours.
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I agree Airhead.
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Ohh please enlighten us MT on what your view of what "a real patriot" would be?
"they" "we"?
Ya know what I find "repugnant" MT? The likes of liberals that espouse the idea that "their" thoughts, without "their" deeds, are the mainstay of American life.
*not an attack, just asking for clarification*
Now Spin....
This should be good.
Mac
You seem to be implying something here, and if I could just figure out what it is I'd be more than happy to spin it for you.
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Thank you Airhead, I'll certainly pass it on to him. :)
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as tasteless as this display is they are within their rights to hold them.
I cannot imagine the mindset of these idiots that do this...or lack thereof.
I agree that they have right to protest though.......BUT, they do not have a right to protest on private property.