Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on April 03, 2008, 07:38:29 AM
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This came over the wires yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7425706 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7425706)
BUENOS AIRES, March 31 (Reuters) - Argentine President Cristina Fernandez has aggravated a crisis over grains export taxes and damaged her image by enlisting an inflammatory protest leader to fight her street battles.
This Today.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_afp/argentinabritainfalklandsdiplomacy&printer=1;_ylt=AuDyISrf0LR0GKXcH0TdrqmROrgF (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_afp/argentinabritainfalklandsdiplomacy&printer=1;_ylt=AuDyISrf0LR0GKXcH0TdrqmROrgF)
Argentine president lays 'inalienable' claim to Falklands
Wed Apr 2, 4:11 PM ET
"The sovereign claim to the Malvinas Islands is inalienable," she said in a speech marking the 26th anniversary of Argentina's ill-fated invasion of the islands, located 480 kilometers (300 miles) off shore.
Historians saw the invasion as an attempt by Argentina's ruling military junta, which was then in power, to divert attention away from domestic problems.
The comments came as Kirchner faces her own woes, battling against farmers who have barricaded roads in a protest against a stiff tax hike on soybean exports.
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Any Brits have any insight into this? Could she be making a play for the IS. of is she looking for assistance from the outside world for the fracking mess she has made? Or is it just a Wage the Dog situation
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sounds exactly like Galtieri's ploy in the 80's. given the increase in our capability since then, any attempt to take the Falklands would be a very bad idea.
but if they can wait a year or two, it would make a nice outing for our F35s when they arrive :D
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I always got a hoot out of the prosecution of the falklands war.
thatcher: We declare war....we are sending our navy....see you in three weeks!!
me thinks the hottie argentine is flexing her chavez.
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..... of is she looking for assistance from the outside world for the fracking mess she has made? Or is it just a Wage the Dog situation
She's only been president for 4 months......how much damage could she have done??
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She's a socialist, the damage is infinite but hopefully reversible.
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I was stationed in the UK during the Falklands War. I have to say it was very interesting to be serving in the military in a foriegn country that was at war, while we were at peace.
I learned much about the British people, their pride, determination, and their willingness to defend their own.
I hope Argintina doesn't make the same mistake twice. Plus I believe the UK keeps the Falklands a little better protected now than they did in 1982.
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On the contrary, Britain's military is a shadow of that fielded in '82.
We don't have the logistics to do such a long range mission anymore (we barely did then), half the armed forces are spread between Afghanistan, the Balkans and the Middle East and defence reviews after the Cold War ended dramatically scaled back the remainder.
Argentina could take it if they wanted. Once they overcame the admittedly bolstered forces down we would have trouble getting it back, and a negociated settlement would be the only conclusion.
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On the contrary, Britain's military is a shadow of that fielded in '82.
We don't have the logistics to do such a long range mission anymore (we barely did then), half the armed forces are spread between Afghanistan, the Balkans and the Middle East and defence reviews after the Cold War ended dramatically scaled back the remainder.
Argentina could take it if they wanted. Once they overcame the admittedly bolstered forces down we would have trouble getting it back, and a negociated settlement would be the only conclusion.
Is there no RAF strike units based in the Falklands anymore? I seem to remember one RAF Fighter squadron based there to prevent furthur Argnetine adventures. That's been years ago though.
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not so sure about that dowding, although we have half the number of vessels we did in 1980, the RN is very well set up for expeditionary tasks now, as opposed to the ASW and anti shipping role it had during the cold war, mostly as a result of the Falklands conflict. we have a very good amphibious assault capability and our escort fleet although alot smaller is alot smarter. quality over quantity.
and if it came to it, im pretty sure the US has a large enough force to patrol the Persian Gulf on its own :)
shifty, I believe there is a Tornado F3 sqn based on the Falklands, not sure how many are based there though.
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shifty, I believe there is a Tornado F3 sqn based on the Falklands, not sure how many are based there though.
Well I'm sure it wouldn't quite as easy for the Argentine navy to park right off Port Stanely like they did in 1982 then.
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On the contrary, Britain's military is a shadow of that fielded in '82.
We don't have the logistics to do such a long range mission anymore (we barely did then), half the armed forces are spread between Afghanistan, the Balkans and the Middle East and defence reviews after the Cold War ended dramatically scaled back the remainder.
Argentina could take it if they wanted. Once they overcame the admittedly bolstered forces down we would have trouble getting it back, and a negociated settlement would be the only conclusion.
Untrue.
All the Brits have to do is threaten to send in the Ghurkas again and the Aggies will back down.
;)
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My question would be if the brits asked the U.S. for help, say a cv group, would we? Lot's of political ramifications to consider.
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I think we might assist with things like intel, but that would be the extent.
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I think we might assist with things like intel, but that would be the extent.
yeah, the US isnt doing well enuff when it comes to foreign relations to do anything more than that.
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The British have stood by us for the past few years, it would be a mistake if we did not support them if they asked.
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The British have stood by us for the past few years, it would be a mistake if we did not support them if they asked.
that may be true, but u have to consider what the rest of the world would think as well, foreign policy is VERY complicated.
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that may be true, but u have to consider what the rest of the world would think as well, foreign policy is VERY complicated.
Nothing against Argentina, but I just don't think the UK would need much help. The RAF prescense has been mentioned, but I have a feeling there may be a Royal navy sub or two patroling that area. I don't think Argentina has the resources to pull of another invasion like 1982, especially if this one is countered from the start.
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pretty sure the F3 only has HARM for ground attack, but as you say shifty attack subs would make it almost impossible to get a fleet anywhere near the islands. turns out there are only 4 Tornados based there :o still going to be pretty effective against Skyhawks and Etendards though, and i'm guessing there are also alot of rapier SAMs dotted around.
as for US involvement, I think treaties prevent direct assistance against South American countries, so like last time the US would be obliged to try to prevent the conflict. as I recall US help last time amounted to rushing through an existing order for new sidewinders.
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The British have stood by us for the past few years, it would be a mistake if we did not support them if they asked.
True, but it happened once before, after Argentina had been defeated by the British, and the terms of surrender were being negotiated, the British were adamant that there should be no negotiation on the crucial issue of sovereignty. However, Reagan went against Thatcher on this issue. And the reason? He was trying to curry favor with the US domiciled hispanic population ahead of elections in the US.
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If the Hispanics care so much for Argentina, then maybe they should all move there.
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OH NO! Not yet ANOTHER war over sheep! :O
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from the wiki article
Economy
Main article: Economy of the Falkland Islands
Sheep farming (as of 2002, there were 583,000 sheep on the island[31])
for a surface of 4,700 sq mi we should start a subscribtion in the O'club to buy this island !
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For strategic sheep purposes of course.
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that may be true, but u have to consider what the rest of the world would think as well, foreign policy is VERY complicated.
When your territory got attacked, we invaded and occupied two countries with you.
We have had our territory attacked twice (1940 and 1982) and you have offered token help... bout time you backed us up should the situation arise, or will it take the Argies to attack your territory this time too for you to get involved? :)
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that may be true, but u have to consider what the rest of the world would think as well, foreign policy is VERY complicated.
Your right... if they didn't like us helping they might stop taking the money we give them. :D
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no blood for sheep.
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My question would be if the brits asked the U.S. for help, say a cv group, would we? Lot's of political ramifications to consider.
Though our Monroe Doctrine does allow for us to get involved, it will probably be like last time and we'll just share intelligence with the UK forces.
ack-ack
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If the Hispanics care so much for Argentina, then maybe they should all move there.
Maybe you should get a brain...
ack-ack
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When your territory got attacked, we invaded and occupied two countries with you.
We have had our territory attacked twice (1940 and 1982) and you have offered token help... bout time you backed us up should the situation arise, or will it take the Argies to attack your territory this time too for you to get involved? :)
Go across the Channel and look at all those white crosses in Normandy and then take your "token help" and shove it up where Sun doesn't shine.
ack-ack
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Maybe you should get a brain...
ack-ack
I only care about Americans, I don't give a damn about what a Hispanic or any other race thinks. You're either an American or not...guess you're not.
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Xargos that dam ignorance is pathetic I am Chilean/American so your statment is flaud :cry about it
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Honestly, I don't like the use of a hyphen in front of American. No matter who you are.
P.S. I'm not trying to pick a fight on that subject here.
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ack, I understand your response to the "token help" comment, but there are similarities with WWII pre-Pearl Harbour. and yes I'm very aware that Americans died fighting in Europe before official US involvement (71sqn is a perfect example)
btw what is the Monroe Doctrine?
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Go across the Channel and look at all those white crosses in Normandy and then take your "token help" and shove it up where Sun doesn't shine.
ack-ack
Maybe you should be the one to get a brain and re-read my sentence before getting all uppity like that ack-ack. All those crosses in Normandy happened after Germany declared war on you in 1941, that is what i was getting at.
We were in real danger of being invaded over a year before Germany declared war on you, my token support comment was until when the Japanese attacked you and Germany decladed war on you (hence me commenting that maybe the Argies would need to attack you in order for you to participate). BTW, i learned the other day that Ford and GM were supplying trucks for the Nazi's (Figure i think was 78,000 by GM, by Opel with American management) until circa 1941, so i guess some American companies gave them material support too?
I didn't mean to change subject or start a flame fest, I know the Americans did indeed help the UK in the Falklands as much as they could in a non military capacity.
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btw what is the Monroe Doctrine?
The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, proclaimed that European powers were to no longer colonize or interfere with the affairs of the independent nations of the Americas.
ack-ack
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what is the Monroe Doctrine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
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the faklands also saw the only sinking by a ship by a nuclear powered submarine
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If the Hispanics care so much for Argentina, then maybe they should all move there.
what a stupid post. are you really this thick?
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this is a no brainer.............split the island in half. afterall...it works so well in the middle east....
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don't think you guys are keeping up with current trends... nobody likes an parasitic empire.... except for right wing socialists and chicken hawks.
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I have it on good authority that parasitic empires are making a fashion comeback in mid 09.
to that extent...I am exclusively investing in mutual funds made up of nothing but parasitic empires and the companies who love them.
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what a stupid post. are you really this thick?
I was making a jest, if you didn't get it. The thought that we should abandon our allies because of the so called Hispanic vote is ridiculous. Argentina is an aggressor in this case, why should American Hispanics defend them?
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Asides the usual eye-poking going on back and forth...
I was re-reading the Wiki write up on the Falklands, as well as the show on it on the Military Channel. What I found interesting was you had two very stretched forces trying to adapt their tactics.
The Argentinaians had A-4 Skyhawks that didnt allow for much loiter time at all. Get in, get out. Much the same for the Mirage aircraft they had. And of course, the very few Exocet missiles they had.
The British simply had Harriers and choppers. The Harrier proved its abilities and did well.
And of course, the naval aspect of the fight. Both sides took heavy hits. The British sank that old cruiser with a nuclear sub. The Argentinians sank the HMS Sheffield with an Exocet strike.
(More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_war )
As to now...I think this would be a fools war on the part of Argentina. Its a clear case of trying to confuse the public and detract attention from core problems. The British would mop them up quickly if they tried. I doubt they would need the help of the USA for this. Lessons have been learned on deploying to worldwide scenarios.
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The British simply had Harriers and choppers.
and support from our AWACS overhead.
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Well, the brits will be "under gunned" and will pwn them like last time. Simple as that. :devil
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I was making a jest, if you didn't get it. The thought that we should abandon our allies because of the so called Hispanic vote is ridiculous. Argentina is an aggressor in this case, why should American Hispanics defend them?
well sorry then, it's hard to tell if someone is smiling on the intardnet. not all people of spanish heratige do. I certainly don't last time around my vocal support for britain earned me a few bar fights. now us older guys just snarl but the issue is the same. argentines don't consider themselves hispanic anyways they think they are european and tend to look down their aquelinic noses at brown folks like me, until they get a size 11 in the arse.
:D
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Sorry about that Storch and Ack-Ack, I should have not said it like that. :salute
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Sorry about that Storch and Ack-Ack, I should have not said it like that. :salute
meh no need to apologize to me. none of that stuff offends me but I don't let it slide due to my argumentative nature.
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The US would be under no obligation to help the UK in the event of an Argentine invasion of the Falkland islands, since the Falklands are outside the geographical boundaries of the NATO treaty. Would be rude to deny help though considering what Britain has done for America in the past few years.
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I've got $50 on the poms! :aok
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First off, why do people think Hispanics are not European? I traced my Hispanic root all the way to a town in Spain. Spain is part of Europe right? My other roots go to England and Germany.
Now, reading the post some think America OWES England something for helping us in the Middle East. Sure, I think as one of our Greatest allies we should back them up even to the point of military help but we owe you nothing accept being an Ally. This so called "Token" help comment is really an narrow minded view of the situations at that time. The U.S. not only helped England immenselyprior to joining the war but they also helped Germany and Japan in different ways. This coming from a "Neutral" Nation.
Argentina, just another group of people who decided to elect another leftist nut job. It will be a matter of time before Chavez chimes in for Argentina.
If things were to escalate to the point of war, I would hope we AMERICANS would support, by any means possible, to England even "Token" Weapons and intel. ;)
BTW, the only hyphen anyone should be worried about is the hyphen on your tombstone.....
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I think the US owes Britain for not only partaking in the invasion of Iraq despite great opposition in Europe, but also for sticking with America despite all the setbacks and failures.
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Xargos that dam ignorance is pathetic I am Chilean/American so your statment is flaud :cry about it
Can you point out where that is on the globe??
I myself am American.... not irish, english. american indian american. I can't help but laugh when someone cries about equality and then differentiates theirselves by calling themselves a slash american.
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Shuffler, Chile is in the Americas.
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Shuffler, Chile is in the Americas.
Where is chilean america??
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Where is chilean america??
it's near argentine america.
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The RAF is still stationed at the Falklands.
This photo was taken of them earlier this week, on the 90th Anniversary of the founding of the RAF:
(http://www.mercopress.com/ImgNoticias/RAF_90.jpg)
Tornadoes can now carry long range anti-ship cruise missiles. I wonder if any of the planes on the Falklands are so equipped?
(http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tornado/images/tornado3.jpg)
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I thought the Tornados were on the short list to be retired and replaced with Eurofighters?
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F3 stationed at Stanley are air interception variant and carry AIM9, AIM120 and HARM for SEAD. GR4 is the attack variant with ground radar and can carry pretty much any NATO ord you can think of.
Typhoons are currently replacing F3 and the F35 will presumably take over the GR4 role eventually, although we need them most for fleet defense now the Sea Harrier has been retired :(
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F3 stationed at Stanley are air interception variant and carry AIM9, AIM120 and HARM for SEAD. GR4 is the attack variant with ground radar and can carry pretty much any NATO ord you can think of.
Typhoons are currently replacing F3 and the F35 will presumably take over the GR4 role eventually, although we need them most for fleet defense now the Sea Harrier has been retired :(
Isn't the RN supposed to get a new large CV in the future, though? I saw something about it, not too long ago.
(http://2006_CVF_STOVL.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_class_aircraft_carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_class_aircraft_carrier)
Interesting concepts, of course, but the problem is that neither is the ship in the water, nor are aircraft from it's airwing beyond prototype stage. Since alot of the Falklands' conflict in 1982 depended on the RN, what can they do right now to fix the situation?
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yeah we get the new carriers and the F35s about 2012/14 i think :rock
in the meantime we still have 3 invincible class carriers equipped with Harrier GR7, unlike the Sea Harrier essentially a strike plane with no radar. your right, this is a worrying gap in capability. the choice was to build a new set of Sea Harriers or refit the GR7 with radar, both for just 5 years of service, both a big waste of money. the result is that fleet air defense is covered by ship-based missiles and GR7s with AIM9s and pilots with good eyesight. good thing we've got decent AEW choppers...
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yeah we get the new carriers and the F35s about 2012/14 i think :rock
in the meantime we still have 3 invincible class carriers equipped with Harrier GR7, unlike the Sea Harrier essentially a strike plane with no radar. your right, this is a worrying gap in capability. the choice was to build a new set of Sea Harriers or refit the GR7 with radar, both for just 5 years of service, both a big waste of money. the result is that fleet air defense is covered by ship-based missiles and GR7s with AIM9s. good thing we've got decent AEW choppers...
See, that's the crux of the whole problem, right there. For one, Argentina's military is different today, too. They scrapped their CV. They just have land-based planes. However, they've added some FFG's and Corvettes' that carry Exocets', and since the Malvinas'(OOPS, Falklands!) are only 300 miles' offshore, land-based aircraft can hit it anyway. I take it, that the RAF extended the runways' at the Airport there to handle the Typhoons, correct? The one problem that the Argie's had last time, was that they couldn't operate their A-4's or Super-Entendards' from Port Stanley's airfield. It was only big enough to handle Pucara's. From what I've read, the Argentine's haven't really done much to their Air Force since '82, apart from an upgrade to the A-4 fleet.
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Well, you guys won the Falklands war with army Harriers on your carriers. Bet you could do it again.
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Well, you guys won the Falklands war with army Harriers on your carriers. Bet you could do it again.
hmm they were RAF and RN Harriers, no Harriers in Army inventory.
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Aérospatiale SA 315 Lama 2
Beechcraft T-34 Mentor 31
Bell UH-1H Iroquois 8
Bell 212 Twin Huey 6 [4]
Boeing 707 1 3 in storage non operational
Boeing 757 1
Cessna 182 Skylane 18
Dassault Mirage III 12 12 in storage
Dassault Mirage V 7 In storage
de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter 8
Embraer Tucano 22
FMA IA 58 Pucará 24
FMA IA 63 Pampa 20
Saab-340 4
Fokker F27 Friendship 8
Fokker F28 Fellowship 6
Hughes H-6 Cayuse 5
IAI Finger 13 In storage, non operative
Learjet 35 4
Learjet 60 1
Lockheed C-130 Hercules 8
McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawk 34
MD/RACA MD 500 Defender 11
Piper PA-31 Navajo 2
Rockwell Aero Commander 500 4
Rockwell Sabreliner 1
Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk 1
Sikorsky S-76 Spirit 1
Sukhoi Su-29 7 In storage
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hmm they were RAF and RN Harriers, no Harriers in Army inventory.
Meant RAF, sorry.
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Meant RAF, sorry.
No problem.
At least the facilities at Ascension Island were upgraded so resupply would be a lot easier than the last time. Though they showed an armada leaving UK quite a few ships were deployed from Gibraltar, were they were on exercise at the time. I remember working 18 hour shifts for the first few weeks getting supplies into Gib and then down to the dockyard and then later with aircraft staging through on the way to Ascension.