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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: angelsandair on April 07, 2008, 04:22:00 PM

Title: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: angelsandair on April 07, 2008, 04:22:00 PM
I'll bet this was a surprise to NBC.
NBC POLL



Do you believe in God?& lt; /b>

NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest Number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the Percentage was the same as this:

86% for keeping the words, IN God We Trust and Go d in the Pledge of Allegiance
14% against

That is a pretty commanding public response.

I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't .

Now it is your turn ... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.

Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such A mess about having 'In God We Trust' on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Why is the world catering to this 14%?

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Hornet33 on April 07, 2008, 04:24:56 PM
Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil. That 86% just except that it's there as it should be and don't say anything about it. It's the 14% that complain and cry about it so they get all the attention because of it.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Trell on April 07, 2008, 05:12:35 PM
Its not required for anyone to say it by law,  So i don't care what they put in it.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Ripsnort on April 07, 2008, 05:14:43 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/godpoll.asp
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Denholm on April 07, 2008, 05:32:11 PM
I can't stand chain letters.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: DiabloTX on April 07, 2008, 05:57:39 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/godpoll.asp

LAWLZ!!!11!!!

PWNT!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Jackal1 on April 07, 2008, 06:11:56 PM
Polls suck anyway. Too easy to manipulate.....and done so regularly.
If I were going to fake a story I`d at least try to get a little closer to facts.
86% is a pretty low figure. :)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 07, 2008, 06:14:21 PM
'Under god' was added to the pledge in 1954 to fight the communist menace.  As long as the dark shores of Cuba hide the slouching menace of Castro's shock-troopers with their elite mechanized amphibious forces that every day threaten to overwhelm us with their might...  we'd better damn well keep those words. 

Apparently, those two little words are all that stands between us and utter annihilation, and without them, our nation is as defenseless against all external threats as it was until that fateful day when Eisenhower erected our God Shield.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 07, 2008, 06:49:01 PM
'Under god' was added to the pledge in 1954 to fight the communist menace.  As long as the dark shores of Cuba hide the slouching menace of Castro's shock-troopers with their elite mechanized amphibious forces that every day threaten to overwhelm us with their might...  we'd better damn well keep those words. 

Apparently, those two little words are all that stands between us and utter annihilation, and without them, our nation is as defenseless against all external threats as it was until that fateful day when Eisenhower erected our God Shield.

Maybe you should watch this clip and you might understand it better. Watch what he says at the very end as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfz2XDXaeqc
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 07, 2008, 07:14:43 PM
It's a classic speech, Red Skelton was truly passionate about the subject and articulated his feelings with deep conviction.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SOB on April 07, 2008, 07:43:22 PM
My god smites those who expose me to retarded email chain letters.  It's a shame that some of my own family shall also be smited, but "rules is rules", so sayeth the lord.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Jackal1 on April 07, 2008, 08:09:51 PM
but "rules is rules", so sayeth the lord.

I thought Skuzzy said that.  :uhoh
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: angelsandair on April 07, 2008, 10:27:36 PM
I didnt get it in a chain letter  :rofl :rofl

I found it on a website. But I have copied and pasted some old chain letters.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: senna on April 08, 2008, 02:56:19 AM
... and justice for all. Guess what I pass.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: lazs2 on April 08, 2008, 08:28:26 AM
the actual polls did say that more than 80% of the people don't want "in god we trust" or mention of him in the pledge removed.

This does not mean that they believe in god but it is a good indication I would say.   Those who do not believe in god are a tiny minority.. those who are actively trying to remove god from all government are an even smaller group.

lazs
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: C(Sea)Bass on April 08, 2008, 08:58:56 AM
I thought Skuzzy said that.  :uhoh

Skuzzy = God? :confused:
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Jackal1 on April 08, 2008, 09:02:42 AM
Skuzzy = God? :confused:
What? Walking on water is not enough proof for you?
Chuck Norris cowers under rocks in Skuzz`s presence.



:)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2008, 09:13:20 AM
Quote
29 states do not have primary enforcement seat belt laws for adults. When states pass primary enforcement seat belt laws, seat belt use increases by 10 to 15 percentage points. Tennessee was the only state in 2004 to pass a primary enforcement law. The Harris poll shows 80 percent of Americans say that seat belt enforcement should be treated like any other traffic safety law, meaning a police officer should be allowed to ticket motorists just for not wearing their seat belts.
http://www.saferoads.org/press/press2004/Roadmap2005/pr_RoadmapRelease12-16-04.htm

Lazs, over 80% of those polled disagree with your thoughts on seatbelt laws.  This is a fine example of a situation where just because an item polls highly because of emotion doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to do. 

The addition of 'Under god' to the Pledge of Allegiance is a harmless example of an emotional decision made 50 years ago that has stood the test of time.  The thing about it that's troubling isn't that it happened or that it exists, the commie menace was a very real and present thing in 1954, and this brought comfort in a troubled time. 

What's troubling is that one of the common responses to anyone who asks "You know...  does this really fit with the religious freedom principles our country was built on?" is to demonize them as unamerican or unpatriotic. 

"Under god" isn't the cause of these problems, but it appears to be a symptom of the increasingly theocratic way religion and government are becoming intertwined.  The extreme example of religion and government mixing might be the Taliban, just as the extreme of atheism might be the Soviet Union.  As citizens, I hope we can strike a balance that doesn't marginalize those we disagree with, and an honest discussion about the appropriateness of legislating religion is part of that balance.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Denholm on April 08, 2008, 12:17:14 PM
What? Walking on water is not enough proof for you?
Chuck Norris cowers under rocks in Skuzz`s presence.



:)

DUCK!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 08, 2008, 01:24:25 PM
Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil. That 86% just except that it's there as it should be and don't say anything about it. It's the 14% that complain and cry about it so they get all the attention because of it.
I think you have it wrong.  We as a people need very much to keep our government about people and not about religion!  Whether you believe in God or not, it is improtant to not become a religous state.  How would you feel if it said, "In Allah we trust"?  Would that make it different?  Allah is God so would it matter to you?  How would you be if every dollar had "Jesus Saves" on it?  What if you lived in a community, and the community voted 86% to put "In Satan we trust" on all public buildings, would you be ok with that? 

I believe in God, but I have always felt that my relationship with God is a personal one and not something I wear as a badge for all to see.   I think it was a bad move to put it on there in the first place for the reasons I stated above.  Once the gates are open, it's only a matter of time before you find yourself, in the minority!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 08, 2008, 01:47:27 PM
The addition of 'Under god' to the Pledge of Allegiance is a harmless example of an emotional decision made 50 years ago that has stood the test of time.  The thing about it that's troubling isn't that it happened or that it exists, the commie menace was a very real and present thing in 1954, and this brought comfort in a troubled time. 

What's troubling is that one of the common responses to anyone who asks "You know...  does this really fit with the religious freedom principles our country was built on?" is to demonize them as unamerican or unpatriotic. 
This is spot on.  It's about the freedom to not be deemed unpatriotic or unamerican, if you have a different religious belief! 
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: lazs2 on April 08, 2008, 02:17:05 PM
chair... not really getting your point.

I was only pointing out that snopes said that it was true that over 80% of the people did not want it removed.   To me this  means that they like it..

This is far different than a seatbelt or helmet law.  it is more in line with what statues or holidays we have.  You are not required to say the pledge or pay attention or homage to what is on the money.

for the seatbelts..  a group is telling you what you must do for your own good.. if you do not they will fine you or arrest you or kill you if you resist.   

The difference is night and day..or.. apples and oranges.  you can't compare the two.

I have seen nothing in our constitution that says you can't use the word god in anything having to do with the government.

As for the slippery slope you infer... that is possible but I don't see how you can tell 80% of the people that you want to remove something that 20%.. who don't even have to participate..  want.

you have no right to not be offended.   only not harmed unjustly.

lazs
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 08, 2008, 03:14:23 PM


you have no right to not be offended.   only not harmed unjustly.

lazs
So if 80% of the people liked putting "In Satan we trust" on our currency, you would be OK with that?  Or "In Allah we aTrust"?

The funny thing about it is, do those 86% of the people feel more righteous because it's on our currency?  :rofl
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: gwano on April 08, 2008, 03:23:24 PM
I'll bet this was a surprise to NBC.
NBC POLL



Do you believe in God?& lt; /b>

NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest Number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the Percentage was the same as this:

86% for keeping the words, IN God We Trust and Go d in the Pledge of Allegiance
14% against

That is a pretty commanding public response.

I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't .

Now it is your turn ... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.

Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such A mess about having 'In God We Trust' on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Why is the world catering to this 14%?




doesn't mean a whole bunch as it was watchers of NBC news who responded.
who cares what theyr'e opinions are.
very narrow demographics.
Skewed poll.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Denholm on April 08, 2008, 03:23:35 PM
If we said, "In Allah we trust." We would immediately have some Arabs up in arms about "offending" them and their god. Not to mention if a certain someone gets the #### house that would most likely occur.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: ink on April 08, 2008, 04:29:54 PM
"IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."


sounds like GOD was always a part of America. we are so far from a country that loves God,
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Shuffler on April 08, 2008, 04:54:04 PM
If you don't like the word God on your currency then get rid of the currency. Just flat refuse to use it.

As for seatbelts mentioned earlier... here in Texas you have to wear a seatbelt. Yet school busses that haul our future around every morning and every evening during the school year have no seatbelts.

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: ink on April 08, 2008, 04:57:11 PM
Tx isnt the only place that its mandatory to wear seat belts but the school buses dont have them, shows the intelligence of those who are in "charge"
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 05:57:10 PM


Why is the world catering to this 14%?




Because there is absolutely no evidence that 86% of Americans are correct in their belief of an all encompassing,overbearing,overwatching(24/7) celestial bully.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 08, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
I'm all for kids wearing seatbelts, however I still can't understand the reasoning in forcing adults to wear them. Whose life is at risk? Thier own and it should be thier decision. Just like its thier decision on if they want to skydive.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 08, 2008, 06:02:00 PM
If you don't like the word God on your currency then get rid of the currency.




It's not about liking it there, the question is why was it put there.  165 years of it not being there should have told us something.  I personally don't care whether it's there or not as I will spend it no matter what, but if there were a vote tomorrow about it, I'd vote no!  I don't like being force-fed anyone else's belief about God, one should keep his relationship with God between him and God!  I think it makes us look stupid to put it on money, as if were sided towards a religous state.  
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 08:35:40 PM
the actual polls did say that more than 80% of the people don't want "in god we trust" or mention of him in the pledge removed.



lazs

Well if that's true,then majority rules for now(democracy has spoken).All the more incentive for us non-beleivers to raise awareness & purge the minds of irrationality.

The day will come when reason (based on evidence) wins this poll.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 08:37:37 PM
double post..
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AWMac on April 08, 2008, 08:38:56 PM
I Believe.

And that's what matters to me.

Mac
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 08:39:48 PM
I Believe.

And that's what matters to me.

Mac
[/quote

that's fine with me...but not when your belief creeps into legislation(stem cell research,gay rights),propaganda(Intellegent Design),morality(abortion),museums(anamtronic humans riding on saddled anamatronic stegasaurous's),shopping malls(1 month of "praise him" music),the Constitution(gov Huckabee saying he amend it in God;s image),the Pledge of Alliegence(added in the 50's),history(the civil right's march being a "faith based movement",conversation(except when taken in vein),government(islamic fascism),the operating table(genetil mutilation..circumcision of either gender).

Governor Huckabee proclaims "I did not decend from a monkee!!'..He is right of course.We decended from other primates about 200,000 years ago.

If we decended from monkees,we'd all look a little bit like Gov Huckabee.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AWMac on April 08, 2008, 08:43:02 PM
Medical miracles that Professional Doctors cannot explain.

Ever hear of Divine Intravention?

 :D

Mac
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 09:04:45 PM
Medical miracles that Professional Doctors cannot explain.

Ever hear of Divine Intravention?

 :D

Mac

Give me a verified example of it...and i'll belive too.

If God can heal,then why is there medicine?
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: splitatom on April 08, 2008, 09:34:19 PM
it almost always 1 person thinks  they should have it change becauses they want it to be changed
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SOB on April 08, 2008, 10:12:19 PM
it almost always 1 person thinks  they should have it change becauses they want it to be changed

That is simply profound.  Did you come up with it by yourself, or is it the work of a great philosopher from our past?
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 08, 2008, 10:13:14 PM
it almost always 1 person thinks  they should have it change becauses they want it to be changed
No, it was a bunch of scared people trying to make a statement in 1954 that had it changed, before that, it just said 1 dollar!  I don't like people trying to influence my right to live with their take on religion, it is my belief that religion should be kept to one's self which is why we die and meet our maker alone, noone else but you and your creator knows where you stand.   Why make it a public affair?  If I trust God, which I do, I shall be the one who knows that, and if I want others to know, I will put myself out there and tell people, but to have my government try and speak for me on religion........is way to freaky.  I would rather all those boiinkers to shut the boink up and work on governmental things such as taxes and roads!  Leave my relationship with my maker to me. :salute
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AWMac on April 08, 2008, 10:18:54 PM
Give me a verified example of it...and i'll belive too.

If God can heal,then why is there medicine?

Because Man wants to equate himself to the same level as GOD.

Not gonna happen.

Mac
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2008, 10:36:43 PM
Because Man wants to equate himself to the same level as GOD.

Not gonna happen.

Mac

It's so gratious of you to speak for all of mankind...

There are too many world leaders in history that think like you.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: wrongwayric on April 08, 2008, 10:50:31 PM
Who's God? Think about that one. Almost all religions i know of no matter what name they use for him/her it ends up coming down to this is our God that my religion is based on. My feelings are your not saying under the majorities vote/opinion it' everyone else's God, your saying under mine, the one you believe in and you would pledge yourself to. Just my 2 cents on it.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AWMac on April 08, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
It's so gratious of you to speak for all of mankind...

There are too many world leaders in history that think like you.

Nope just speaking for myself... you have to find your own way.

Mac
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2008, 10:59:46 PM
Who's God? Think about that one. Almost all religions i know of no matter what name they use for him/her it ends up coming down to this is our God that my religion is based on. My feelings are your not saying under the majorities vote/opinion it' everyone else's God, your saying under mine, the one you believe in and you would pledge yourself to. Just my 2 cents on it.
Unless you have more than one God (see 'Monotheism' versus 'Polytheism') or simply don't believe there is a god and don't want the US to move in the direction of Iran's or Afghanistan's previous theocracy.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AWMac on April 08, 2008, 11:40:30 PM
Whoa I just said I believe and I'm attacked. 
Accused of the speaker for all man/nations?
No, I just speak for myself.
I said I believed in GOD. If you don't then find your OWN way, I've found mine.

Holy Crap Batman....

Mac
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 09, 2008, 12:35:30 AM
Whoa I just said I believe and I'm attacked. 
Accused of the speaker for all man/nations?
No, I just speak for myself.
I said I believed in GOD. If you don't then find your OWN way, I've found mine.

Holy Crap Batman....

Mac

That's the point, Mac,everyone has their own belief and putting that on the nations currency was in a way, subjecting everyone to a belief!  Not a good thing for a free government to do IMHO!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SaburoS on April 09, 2008, 03:06:01 AM
Much ado about nothing IMHO. I'd rather it not be in our Pledge of Allegiance but am not going to lose sleep over it.
However, putting it on our money, I really don't see a problem with it at all (to date). Now if it was specific in saying "In Jesus we trust.", "In Christ we trust.", or "In Mohammed we trust.", then I'd probably not want in on my currency.
I see nothing wrong as using paper and common metals as currency takes a bit of faith. What better universal symbol than God = faith.
"In God we trust." looks and sounds better than "In faith we trust." or "In the hope that this money is worth something."
This coming from a person denying the existence of a Supreme Being. <shrug>
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 09, 2008, 04:12:59 AM

What better universal symbol than God = faith.
"In God we trust." looks and sounds better than "In faith we trust." or "In the hope that this money is worth something."


Faith is defined in the dictionary as "the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence or proof"

So by definition faith is irrational..Faith=Irrational

You really want "In Irrationality We Trust" on your currency?

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Rolex on April 09, 2008, 05:04:30 AM
Faith is defined in the dictionary as "the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence or proof"

So by definition faith is irrational..Faith=Irrational

You really want "In Irrationality We Trust" on your currency?

That describes fiat currency pretty good, so I think it's appropriate.  :D
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Coshy on April 09, 2008, 06:08:19 AM
People who forward chain letters should have to spend 1 year at hard labor for each one they forward.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 09, 2008, 06:26:10 AM
Unless you have more than one God (see 'Monotheism' versus 'Polytheism') or simply don't believe there is a god and don't want the US to move in the direction of Iran's or Afghanistan's previous theocracy.

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor . . ."

You know who wrote this?


 

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SOB on April 09, 2008, 06:49:54 AM
"In God we trust." looks and sounds better than ... "In the hope that this money is worth something."

I dunno, I kinda like the latter.  :)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Denholm on April 09, 2008, 11:10:30 AM
Well if that's true,then majority rules for now(democracy has spoken).All the more incentive for us non-beleivers to raise awareness & purge the minds of irrationality.

The day will come when reason (based on evidence) wins this poll.

Yes it will, the Bible clearly says this. If any believer refutes this, they better take a look at Revelations.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: MORAY37 on April 09, 2008, 11:39:29 AM


for the seatbelts..  a group is telling you what you must do for your own good.. if you do not they will fine you or arrest you or kill you if you resist.   



lazs

I don't believe cops have the authority of deadly force for seatbelt infractions.  I may be wrong where you live, though Lazs.  Here it is a 20$ dollar fine and is an offense they cannot explicitly pull you over for.  Every post you get nuttier and nuttier.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 09, 2008, 12:14:56 PM
Moray, the word today is 'escalation'.  Just a few weeks ago, an officer tazed a person pulled over for speeding because the person was trying to point out a speed limit sign.  A few hundred folks have died from tazings.  Alternately, there's the old 'resisting arrest' or 'interfering with the operations of an officer' methodology that can be used to escalate the mildest situation into something deadly if the 'perp' isn't following the script.

This is why officers are held to such a high standard, and thankfully, the vast vast majority meet this standard.  It's when the exception has a bad day that innocent people can die, and a seatbelt stop is as good a catalyst as any.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: lazs2 on April 09, 2008, 02:43:21 PM
moray..again you show the inability to think past your nose.

go ahead and not pay a tax or a fine.   let it grow.. when they come to take you.. resist.   you will be injured or killed.   People have been killed because they refused to go to jail over a tax or a fine in many many cases.  For a traffic ticket.. you will be issued a warrant.  if you are stopped with a warrant then you will be arrested.. if you resist.. you will be injured or killed.  all because you did not wear a seatbelt.. all to save you.  for your own good.  This is nothing like "in god we trust" on the money.

skyrock.. This may shock you but..  if more than 80% of the people wanted "in satan we trust" on the money and in the pledge.. it would happen.  That would be fine with me.   They won't fine you or kill you for not saying "in satan I trust" or pledging in satans name.. you are not harmed.   Get a majority of the people to say that they don't want god or satan or alfred e newman on the money and it will happen.  No big deal.

Now..  you want to fine or imprison people who wont say it.. that is another matter.

but to get all upset over something that causes you no harm is just whiny agenda crap.

lazs
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 09, 2008, 02:47:19 PM
Come on Choirboy, tell me who you think said this.

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor . . ."

You know who wrote this?
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: acfireguy26 on April 09, 2008, 02:53:47 PM
Come on Choirboy, tell me who you think said this.

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor . . ."

You know who wrote this?

George Washington
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 09, 2008, 03:21:12 PM
It's a great quote.  Would you mind clarifying exactly where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that text is from?

Oh, right...  it's not there.  It's a proclamation, establishing the holiday Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 09, 2008, 04:10:56 PM
Spoken by the Father of our country. Who states we should acknowledge God.

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 09, 2008, 04:58:05 PM
Well goodness, it seems to have slipped his mind when he was crafting the actual nation itself.  What are the odds?

C'mon, as far as stretches go, this is pretty bad.  Yes, George Washington said that, as part of the Thanksgiving Proclamation.  But if you can't discern the difference between what someone writes into the source code of the country versus a written proclamation years later, jeepers, that'll inhibit communication here for sure.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 09, 2008, 08:21:13 PM
Spoken by the Father of our country. Who states we should acknowledge God.


A person acknowleging god is exactly what this country was formed for, the right to do so.  Note that Washington did not put the word God on our money.  Faith should be a personal matter and not something the government should be involved in. :aok
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Hap on April 09, 2008, 09:03:26 PM
Our ancestors were better and wiser than we.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 09, 2008, 09:16:16 PM
Our ancestors were better and wiser than we.
.


Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson.

Need another "Thomas For Pres!" run.

First name only..don't want another "Clarance"
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 09, 2008, 09:39:19 PM
Well goodness, it seems to have slipped his mind when he was crafting the actual nation itself.  What are the odds?

C'mon, as far as stretches go, this is pretty bad.  Yes, George Washington said that, as part of the Thanksgiving Proclamation.  But if you can't discern the difference between what someone writes into the source code of the country versus a written proclamation years later, jeepers, that'll inhibit communication here for sure.

So tell me where in the Constitution idoes it says anything about separation of church and state?

Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Hap on April 09, 2008, 09:45:23 PM
Tango, that phrase doesn't appear though it does in a letter that Jefferson authored.

My take is the Fathers didn't want our government to establish a national religion.

So much has changed.  What I mean by that is if the Founders were banging away on a keyboard on the O'Club forum with their own ideas and beliefs in tact, they'd be criticized for their views by many.  The webitarians would go blue in the face.  The webocrats blue in the face.  The webublicans blue in the face.

I like the founders a lot better than I like us.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 09, 2008, 11:05:14 PM
Tango, that phrase doesn't appear though it does in a letter that Jefferson authored.

Yes and Washington's proclamation making Thanksgiving a national holiday and recognizing God. Lets not also forget he was one of the founders of this nation.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: MORAY37 on April 10, 2008, 04:21:07 PM
Yes and Washington's proclamation making Thanksgiving a national holiday and recognizing God. Lets not also forget he was one of the founders of this nation.

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.

Quote
   Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AKIron on April 10, 2008, 04:24:55 PM
I think the treaty of Tripoli has been violated to point of rendering it void many times over.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 10, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.


Thats not the Constitution.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Chairboy on April 10, 2008, 06:02:20 PM
Say, Tango, weren't you just holding up the Thanksgiving Declaration a minute ago as evidence to support your case?  It's the darndest thing, then someone cites Jefferson's writings and suddenly it's "That's not the Constitution".  Don't let that whole 'double standard' thing get in your way, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: AKIron on April 10, 2008, 06:30:51 PM
Wow, just noticed I'm approaching 10,000 on the post potato meter. 1 closer now. Oh, yeah, keep God in the pledge.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 10, 2008, 06:41:18 PM
I just showed how the first President of this country and one of the founding Fathers supported acknowledging God. However, you and all the other Libs keep saying theres no reason to and one of the biggest reasons not to is "separation of church and state" which is not in the Constitution.

As for the Treaty, that was with a Muslim nation. It has nothing to do with the citizens of this country. It was a treaty in which the government paid tribute to pirates to get them to leave our ships alone and I'm sure article 11 was put in to appease them even more than the money they were paying them to not attack or ships.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 10, 2008, 06:52:51 PM
However, you and all the other Libs keep saying theres no reason to and one of the biggest reasons not to is "separation of church and state" which is not in the Constitution.




I just finished reading "Thomas Jefferson:Author of America" by Christophr Hitchens..What does the First ammendment say then?(or how do you interpret it?)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 10, 2008, 10:16:51 PM
A little historical background.

There are three founding documents:

The Declaration of Independence, which lists our grievances, The Treaty of Paris, which establishes and recognizes our independent status among nations and establishes our original political boundaries, and the Constitution, which lists our rules of self governance.

The Declaration Begins,
Quote

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness
 

The Paris Treaty of 1793 begins,

Quote
In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse , between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony; and having for this desirable end already laid the foundation of peace and reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782, by the commissioners empowered on each part, which articles were agreed to be inserted in and constitute the Treaty of Peace proposed to be concluded between the Crown of Great Britain and the said United States,

Only Benjamin Franklin signed all three.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Hap on April 10, 2008, 10:21:26 PM
Yes and Washington's proclamation making Thanksgiving a national holiday and recognizing God. Lets not also forget he was one of the founders of this nation.

Absolutely.  I'm all for what George and others were about!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SkyRock on April 10, 2008, 11:12:46 PM
I just showed how the first President of this country and one of the founding Fathers supported acknowledging God. However, you and all the other Libs keep saying theres no reason to and one of the biggest reasons not to is "separation of church and state" which is not in the Constitution.

As for the Treaty, that was with a Muslim nation. It has nothing to do with the citizens of this country. It was a treaty in which the government paid tribute to pirates to get them to leave our ships alone and I'm sure article 11 was put in to appease them even more than the money they were paying them to not attack or ships.

No matter what is where, America was founded on the basis of an idea of escaping governmental religion.  Period!!!! :aok  (governmental religion)It has taken its toll on our progress and quest for the truth as human beings throughout the past, and obviosly will continue to do so!  We don't have to like it. :aok  Don't try and make it, "God's will", because some obese senators were cowardly trying to make a statement and yelling, "wer'e good folks and all of you who don't believe as us are bad", truth is, the founding fathers were more discrete and "American" about it all!  It is why they didn't put, "In God we trust" on any currency as this nation was being founded.  It was a direct result of giving everyone their, "breathing room", as far as religion goes! :aok
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 10, 2008, 11:29:29 PM
The only mention of religion in the Constitution,is for the exclusion of it ...from state politics.

The First Ammendment(Thomas Jefferson,Thomas Paine)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 10, 2008, 11:30:09 PM
...damn dpost
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: angelsandair on April 11, 2008, 12:43:58 AM
wow I pretty much forgot about this one. still goin?
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: wrag on April 11, 2008, 08:28:29 AM
I don't believe cops have the authority of deadly force for seatbelt infractions.  I may be wrong where you live, though Lazs.  Here it is a 20$ dollar fine and is an offense they cannot explicitly pull you over for.  Every post you get nuttier and nuttier.

Only $20?

In some states it starts at $50 and goes up AND they can pull you over for NOT wearing a seat belt in some states.

I KNOW cause it happened to me!  $50 dollar fine etc.....
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: wrag on April 11, 2008, 08:30:59 AM
Unless you have more than one God (see 'Monotheism' versus 'Polytheism') or simply don't believe there is a god and don't want the US to move in the direction of Iran's or Afghanistan's previous theocracy.


HMMM............

I recall the legal system and laws from my younger days.

Seems to me the U.S. is moving AWAY and not TOWARD such.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2008, 09:56:24 AM
what religion is being refered to in the founding documents?  God, or divininity is is mentioned in all three.. just as it is in the pledge and on the money.

I see no link to an establishment of religion in any of this.   It is a big blowup about nothing.  If 80% of the people want it on the money.. what is the big deal.. it doesn't say "in jesus we trust".   If you don't believe in a god.. what's the big deal?  you can just smugly laugh at all the believers right?  It being there causes you no harm.  You do not have to say the pledge for instance... hell.. these days.. you don't even have to see the money.   Your visa don't have any of that god stuff on it.   And they are great guys too.


lazs
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Tango on April 11, 2008, 10:04:27 AM
No matter what is where, America was founded on the basis of an idea of escaping governmental religion.  Period!!!! :aok  (governmental religion)It has taken its toll on our progress and quest for the truth as human beings throughout the past, and obviosly will continue to do so!  We don't have to like it. :aok  Don't try and make it, "God's will", because some obese senators were cowardly trying to make a statement and yelling, "wer'e good folks and all of you who don't believe as us are bad", truth is, the founding fathers were more discrete and "American" about it all!  It is why they didn't put, "In God we trust" on any currency as this nation was being founded.  It was a direct result of giving everyone their, "breathing room", as far as religion goes! :aok

Acknowledging God hasn't anything to do with a government sanctioned religion. Otherwise Washington wouldn't have made the statement about ackknowleding him. Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc all believe in God or a creator. The difference is how they worship him. THAT is the freedom of religion that the Fathers of this country wanted to protect.
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: bongaroo on April 11, 2008, 12:20:47 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/godpoll.asp

I love that website and the great service they do us all!
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2008, 02:55:37 AM
If God can heal,then why is there medicine?

It`s the generic alternative for atheists.




 ;)
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 12, 2008, 03:56:50 AM
Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc all believe in God or a creator. 

What about Buddism?
Title: Re: Under God in pledge of allegiance.
Post by: SirLoin on April 12, 2008, 06:40:30 AM
What about Buddism?

Religion or way of life?