Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on April 08, 2008, 03:36:54 AM
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WTF, whacked religous group in Texas abusing children etc :furious
http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/erlent/2008/04/08/fjolkvaeni_og_barnanidsla_rannsokud/
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Child protective services raided a castle-like compound near El Dorado, TX. Four hundred and one children were removed for their own safety. Apparently this was a religious polygamist compound. A 16 year old girl who had been forced to marry and have kids with a 50 year old man tipped off CPS (child protective services).
Some of the kids have never been off the compound, and have been brainwashed into thinking that everyone in the outside world is evil. Similar to the movie "The Village".
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Got to remember at this point the media hype involved and what they are being fed by the powers that be.
The alleged caller has not been located, identified or has not come forward at this time.
I`m sure they will be one in the future whether the caller was fact or fiction. :confused:
The kids being taken to other locations is a good idea until this can be sorted out.
I certainly don`t agree with their practices and beliefs but I am also concerned about the constitution being trashed and authority over stepping it`s bounds.
The men are being held on the property and not allowed to leave. At what point this becomes illegal I am not sure.
If they have charges, file them and make arrests against those that have the charges. Holding an entire group of people with no charges to back it up just has a real bad smell to it.
The media certainly can`t be believed at this point. They are ringing every bit of sensationalism out of this they can get and going for the gold.
The property immediately became a compound with the media. The religion immediately became a cult or sect.
Really hard to know what is going on at this point.
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WTF, whacked religous group in Texas abusing children etc :furious
http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/erlent/2008/04/08/fjolkvaeni_og_barnanidsla_rannsokud/
I have yet to see where anyone has claimed or accused them of "abusing children, etc". I'm not saying nothing nefarious happened there, but spouting off unfounded accusations is irresponsible.
I'm curious what the age of consent is in Texas, here it is 15 if the other is over 18.
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I believe it's 16 here. I doubt if consent is even an issue in a case like this.
Also like mentioned above, nobody is really sure what's going on just yet.
Just have to wait and see.
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I think it's 17 here in Texas. With her having a baby at 15... that's a bit under age of consent.
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Hopefully not another Waco
No worries, Janet Reno is not the AG.
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Not sure about the story.. It just struck me odd with all the "child abuse" talk.. there were over 400 kids there and the only child that was abused so far as I can tell was a 16 year old...
not defending this place.. don't know squat about it but.. compared to a lot of public schools.. the place had a pretty clean bill of health.. abuse wise. If the raided public schools based on child abuse, forced drug use and brainwashing....
I doubt there would be many left.
lazs
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It's fundamental mormonism at its very finest. The very thread of the religion is to have as many children and wives in order to have the most chance at having "God-ship" over your very own planet when you die. It's absurd and its child abuse; no matter if the child is 15 or 17. The children there are brainwashed into believing that this religious sponsored sexual perversion is their duty to their 'husbands'. Hopefully there is one brave child in that pack of 400 that will tell it like it is.
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Not sure about the story.. It just struck me odd with all the "child abuse" talk.. there were over 400 kids there and the only child that was abused so far as I can tell was a 16 year old...
Which has yet to materialize.
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sooo.. you think that if we can show forced drug use and brainwashing and child abuse at schools that they should be shut down? So do I.
lazs
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Which has yet to materialize.
We've yet see Chairboy protest this government intrusion on so many lives too! :noid
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I would be willing to bet that they knocked on the door first rather than fire a few rounds through it, that normally makes for a bit less violence when executing a warrant.
shamus
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The people at Waco commited suicide.... at no time were they told not to come out.
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News this am on NBC, 14 year olds being married ( pledged) to 50 year olds was common practice. It will come out.
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I always thought that the Waco victims were due to fire....somebody from inside (Koresh?) torched the place.
BTW, he was a son of a mother of some 14.
Beats me flat how stiff bible readers can get into this kind of stuff. Thei'd better be reading the Koran.
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shuffler.. you need to listen to the transcripts.. at one point the people at waco were told that if they tried to come out they would be shot. a good vid for you to look at is "waco, the rules of engagement"
lazs
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Beats me flat how stiff bible readers can get into this kind of stuff. Thei'd better be reading the Koran.
Because Muslims don't have multiple wives or marry young girls? Maybe it's because they don't kill their own children who dishonor them? Probably not for these reasons. Why would it be better?
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A public school handing out condoms and encouraging gay sex is better then what the members of this, so called, compound were doing. Public schools are so superior to any other because it's the State doing the brainwashing. :rolleyes:
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The people at Waco commited suicide.... at no time were they told not to come out.
It does appear that they did, they were obviously not aware of the escalating force doctrine.
shamus
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I always thought that the Waco victims were due to fire....somebody from inside (Koresh?) torched the place.
Rules Of Engagement Angus...watch it.
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So Rules of Engagement is now looked upon as the gospel of Waco? Sheesh. Where's Al Jazeera when you need it for a truly unbiased take?
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So Rules of Engagement is now looked upon as the gospel of Waco? Sheesh. Where's Al Jazeera when you need it for a truly unbiased take?
Well I think that it points out a few flaws in the governments position, do you?
shamus
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So Rules of Engagement is now looked upon as the gospel of Waco?
Sort of hard to argue with films and recordings with details and those Oh so bothersome details that the gov was witholding from the public.
It`s certainly hard to argue with the FLIR videos. Especially when they are being critiqued by the developer of FLIR.
Hard to argue that someone was telling bold face lies when they stated there was no firing from the feds while the gas was being injected when you watch the FLIR videos and can see auto fire directed into the building.
Just litle itsy bitsy details like that the gov was trying it`s best to cover up.
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Age of consent is indeed 17 in Texas. However one can be married at the age of 14, with parental consent.
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At what point is it allowed to shoot an unarmed person coming out with hands up?
I'm gonna watch that though...
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oops...a lot of stuff on this. No time for that all. But to restate, what kept the people inside and why did the place catch fire?
I remember this from the stakeout point, as well as the polecemen got sniped...was a while back though.
Anyway, I am yet baffled on what's going on, as well as impressed by Laz's twist on public schools in the connection.
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Age of consent is indeed 17 in Texas. However one can be married at the age of 14, with parental consent.
If kids in Texas can in fact be married as young as 14 with parental consent I think it will be hard for the State to press charges for abuse.
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If kids in Texas can in fact be married as young as 14 with parental consent I think it will be hard for the State to press charges for abuse.
Maybe it would have been better if they'd just shot and burned 'em all to death. No messy legal proceedings. Maybe if we elect Hillary she'll put Janet Reno back in charge?
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If kids in Texas can in fact be married as young as 14 with parental consent I think it will be hard for the State to press charges for abuse.
I think these girls were not entered into legal binding marriages with these men. Their marriages were called "spiritual marriages," or something of that nature. Also, marriage at 14 (with parental consent) still implies that the young lady being married also gives consent (which appears may not be the case).
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Boils down to the same though. All over the world you have highly focused religious groups going "ape", and that goes all the way from abusing to killings and suicide.
I watched a lot of Waco data today, and that means facing 2 theories.
One is the public one, where over religious-doomsday fans torched themselves after a siege.
The other one is the conspiracy one, where the FBI or others in black murdered a group of people and managed to get away with the trick except for some clips now on youtube.
Call me crazy, but I think they torched the complex themselves, and I think the authorities were quite clumsy in their attempts.
Lots of uneccecary deaths.
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Boils down to the same though. All over the world you have highly focused religious groups going "ape", and that goes all the way from abusing to killings and suicide.
I watched a lot of Waco data today, and that means facing 2 theories.
One is the public one, where over religious-doomsday fans torched themselves after a siege.
The other one is the conspiracy one, where the FBI or others in black murdered a group of people and managed to get away with the trick except for some clips now on youtube.
Call me crazy, but I think they torched the complex themselves, and I think the authorities were quite clumsy in their attempts.
Lots of uneccecary deaths.
They may have torched it themselves, I think we'll never know the answer to that. I think the ATF and the FBI were way overzealous in their persecution of those people though which ultimately led to the death of far too many.
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The people at Waco died simply because the ATF was trying to justify it's existence.
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There is plenty of blame for the deaths in Waco between both sides in Waco. Neither side is blameless, particularly in the case of the children.
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News this am on NBC, 14 year olds being married ( pledged) to 50 year olds was common practice. It will come out.
Granted there are likely some sicko's in the bunch.. I really do wonder how much of this has been hyped up by both the athorities and the press.
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We've yet see Chairboy protest this government intrusion on so many lives too! :noid
:rofl
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News story tonight indicated that the cult's lawyers are now presenting their arguments to suppress the search warrant and anything found in it's execution. If the prosecution can't cough up the girl and corroborate her story (tip) there is going to be a messy legal suit very shortly. Likely to be enough to buy more property build another temple and brainwash a bunch more kids.
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News story tonight indicated that the cult's lawyers are now presenting their arguments to suppress the search warrant and anything found in it's execution. If the prosecution can't cough up the girl and corroborate her story (tip) there is going to be a messy legal suit very shortly. Likely to be enough to buy more property build another temple and brainwash a bunch more kids.
Sounds to me like what these people were doing was criminal but if the government can't make a case then I believe they are entitled to a remedy. Our government should do some investigating before it shoots up peoples homes or takes them into custody. We need to fire the lot of them if they can't do their job.
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They have her voice recorded from the 911 calls she made. Why can't they just CSI it & compare with the voices of the children interviewed?
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There are 400 children and a considerable number of other women. They may not have the requisite equipment to do a voice comparison and they may also not have a clean enough tape from the original call. In any event you shouldn't confuse the TV show with reality.
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They may have torched it themselves, I think we'll never know the answer to that. I think the ATF and the FBI were way overzealous in their persecution of those people though which ultimately led to the death of far too many.
To me it looks like it, - a bit.
As for the insiders, just not coming out, it means that they were somehow "held".
BTW, even in my small country, there have been cases of both fraud and sexual abusion within pockets of extremely religious groups, - people wha can hardly say good morning without mentioning Jesus.
And they go to great length to hide their stuff....really.
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We've yet see Chairboy protest this government intrusion on so many lives too! :noid
I don't know anything about this story yet, other than some sensational sounding stories I read that suggested there were forced marriages of young girls to older guys with pre-age of consent sex taking place. I'd like to know a little more before taking a stand. What happened at Waco was criminal, btw. Absolutely disgraceful, every aspect of how the government handled it.
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The newest I had from news it that a bed is being examined....it was in the church. The theory is that it was perhaps ritual-related. Yeachh. Anyway, never saw a church with a bed in it..
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At first glance, it appears to be just a bunch of perv's who hijacked a religion for their own deviant, twisted agenda.
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no matter what... the deaths at waco of all those people.. but especially the children were the fault of the government and us for allowing it. The government shot first and they continued to fire the whole time. when the first group of ninjas ran out of ammo.. the davidians let them walk/run away in peace. They could have killed every one of the black clad heros. The local sheriff said that he could search the place any time he wanted. You need to listen to the transcripts and the interviews with the local sheriff and the guy who invented the flir system used.
As for churches that "marry" up 14 year olds as a reward to the old limp guys... well.. that is disgusting. Notice how they always find a way to make it some leader and his buddies get to bed the youngest.. why not 25 year olds? If they weren't pervs and only wanted to increase the flock.. why not 18 and older?
I am all for consenting adults doing whatever they want with each other so far as sex goes. None of my business.
I don't believe the government had a right to kill those 28 kids at waco and I don't think any church (or anyone) has a right to pass out underage girls as party favors.
lazs
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In Waco the criminals commited suicide and took their innocent children with them.
The shots came from inside the building.. video shows the shots being fired.
If there was nothing to hide they should have just came out and cleared everything up.
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So who's next the Amish? For not letting there kids watch TV? maybe some other town that only home schools their children?
where is the law? 401 kids common!
most religious faiths brainwash their kids it starts before age 1. If the kids were to make there own decisions they wouldn't be taught religion they would come to it when they were old enough to make a decision themselves.
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shuffler.. I think that you are wrong. I think that films of the event show that you are wrong. I think that it is obvious to anyone who can think that all of this could have been avoided.. Koresh could have been arrested while out jogging. the place could have been searched peacefully at any time.
If the government had nothing to hide then why did they keep the press away from the scene and why was it so hard to get copies of the tapes? why did so many just vanish? there were 4 cameras running at the original shots fired (at the front door) where only an unarmed karesh and davidians were hit.. yet.. none of the tapes of that initial contact could be found.
Let me ask you.. if you came out to see what was going on with the less than sneaky ninjas all over your yard and were shot at and wounded.. what would you do when they started coming in through a second floor window?
If the negotiator told you that it was "too late for that" when you asked how to surrender.. what would you do?
were you happy to see the ATF flag over the burning corpses of 28 children and as many adults?
When did the davidians fire at the ATF other than when they tried to break into the second story window guns drawn? They could have killed every one of those ATF guys who fired mag after mag into a house full of children until their guns went dry and then they had to beg to leave and not be shot.. every one of those idiots could easily have been killed as they trudged their cowardly ninja clad bodies back to safety while dragging their empty machine guns.
All because... all because there MAY have been illegal weapons.. ones that a tax had not been paid on... ones that never got produced after the "fire".
The ATF turned a tax case into the killing of men women and... CHILDREN.
sure. the davidians were nutty as a crap house rat for the most part and maybe not what I want for my kids.. but they didn't deserve this.
lazs
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Waco is another example of what the SWAT mentality can do. Mr. Koresh went into town frequently, they could have arrested him there or sent a normal officer pair to the 'compound'. Sending a massive paramilitary task force in the beginning was almost guaranteed to cause the reaction that happened.
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What I found rather interesting was the claim by the government that the davidians fired through the front door at the agents and the claim by the davidians that the agents fired through it at them.
When the defense lawyer subpoenaed the door he was told by the government, oops we cant find the door, sorry does not pass the smell test.
shamus
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Call me crazy, but I think they torched the complex themselves
The government is here to help.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/fastblastus/help1.jpg)
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" FLIR Footage
One of the most sensational segments of this documentary involves aerial Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) movie footage taken by the FBI's own observation plane over the Waco compound. The FLIR footage looks like black-and-white television camera footage, but registers heat sources. It is the same technology used by U.S. forces during Desert Storm. Sandwiched between the FLIR movie clips are the repeated claims by FBI officials and their congressional supporters that the FBI "did not fire a single shot" during the entire siege. We see, for instance, Representative Gene Taylor (D-MS) asking, "Did the FBI fire one shot —even one shot — at the Davidian compound?" To which senior FBI official Larry Potts (of Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Oklahoma City bombing infamy) replies, "No sir, not throughout the entire standoff." The problem is that those claims —according to the FBI's own FLIR footage — are obviously blatant lies. The Gif-fords' Waco takes us step by step through the most important segments of the FLIR film, often using freeze frames or slow motion, accompanied by commentary from Dr. Edward F. Allard, one of the top authorities on FLIR technology.
Dr. Allard, a former deputy director of the U.S. Defense Department's Night Vision Laboratory, helped pioneer much of the infrared thermal imaging technology now in use and holds patents on FLIR-re-lated inventions. In a calm, scientific manner, Allard authoritatively explains the significance of various heat sources seen on the film, including what he asserts are clearly muzzle flashes from automatic weapons fire from outside the building being fired into the building. Much of this shooting into the building follows what Allard describes as the FBI's "infantry/ tank maneuver" in which federal officers on foot apparently are using the armored tank for cover as it punches through the walls of the complex.
Dr. Allard's assessment is backed up by an analysis conducted by the Infraspection Institute for CBS' 60 Minutes. (The CBS newshounds never broadcast their blockbuster findings, of course, which is what one would expect from the network that aptly has been dubbed the "Clintonista Broadcast Service.") In addition to his video testimony, we have reviewed Dr. Allard's sworn affidavit concerning the FLIR footage, which adds even more compelling weight to his charge.
If the Allard and Infraspection analyses of the FLIR film are correct — and to the (admittedly untrained) eyes of this viewer their expert analyses very convincingly match what is actually seen on the film —then this one segment alone from Waco: The Rules of Engagement is sufficient to completely demolish one of the government's central contentions and to justify officially reopening this case. It not only demonstrates that FBI and Justice Department officials, including Attorney General Janet Reno, lied repeatedly under oath when they claimed that no shots were fired by the FBI, but may also mean that the same federal officers who fired into the building are guilty of murdering Davidians who were trying to flee the burning building."
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"
"Massive Gas"
The incredible decision to use the deadly CS "tear gas" in the first place is yet another matter that was never adequately examined in official investigations. The gas attack actually involved enormous quantities of CS powder dissolved in methylene chloride (paint thinner) pumped into the Davidian complex through a long pipe protruding from an armored tank. The concentrations the Davidians — including many elderly people, women, and small children —were subjected to were many times higher than would normally be used by police or military units. As FBI spokesman Bob Ricks stated in a press conference as the attack got underway, "We put massive gas in there." Indeed, and as various experts testified, these were lethal levels, especially for the babies, who could not be fitted with gas masks.
And when the toxic, flammable mixture burned, it produced even deadlier hydrogen cyanide gas, the same substance used in prison gas chambers. William Marcus, an inhalant toxicologist for the federal EPA who is interviewed on the effects of hydrogen cyanide, explains that it makes the muscles contract so violently that they actually bend and break one's bones. A photo of the body of one of the Davidian children shows the small corpse with the spine bent severely backward, the obvious result of the cyanide gas.
For anyone who watched the televised 1995 Waco hearings conducted by the Joint Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives, surely one of the most gratingly memorable characters must be the snide, sneering, sanctimonious, acid-tongued Representative Charles Schumer (D-NY). Fortunately, Waco: The Rules of Engagement allows the ever-obnoxious Schumer repeatedly to discredit himself with his own words. In one segment of the hearings Schumer is shown upbraiding defense attorney Dick DeGuerin for referring to the FBI's "flash-bangs" as grenades. Schumer fulminates: "This idea of the FBI having hand grenades, not flash-bangs, but hand grenades — And then the coup de grace, Mr. DeGuerin says flash-bangs can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything about these things knows they can't."
The documentary then cuts to Congressman Bob Barr (R-CA) questioning ATF agent Jim Cavanaugh. Barr asks if the flash-bangs used by the ATF and referred to by Schumer are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 6845 (f), to which Cavanaugh answers in the affirmative. Barr then asks if it is true that they can kill people, to which Cavanaugh replies, "Certainly. Yes sir."
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So you live in a totalitarian state then, that toasts innocent davidans if they can't be shot in the first place? And get away with it through the whole political system, of course.
Pardon me, but I don't buy that all. My bead is that the authorities may have screwed up a raid on whackjobs. They may even have learned from it since dealing with teen-fornicating-multi-flesh-for-getting-to-heaven has not brought many corpses yet.
I am actually amazed that the thread went this way though.
There were deads at Waco. But how many a bad thing happens before the crap hits the mill?
Are groups like that simply allowed to do watever to teen girls because of their rights?
How do you feel about girl circumsicion (SP?) in Africa BTW? It's a twist of a religion, and it must be the supervisors right. And definately better than high school.
DOH :mad:
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There were deads at Waco. But how many a bad thing happens before the crap hits the mill?
You mean before someone like Timothy McVeigh lashes out and bombs a government building?
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Not exactly....
Anyway, Waco was a whacko incident. The people inside never heard of a white flag I guess....
(Oh, am tempted to say something evil regarding the ...Italians (not French) but...I'll skip it :t)
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The government is here to help.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/fastblastus/help1.jpg)
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i never really followed the waco thing but that pic is unreal. could be a scene from hue south vietnam during tet.
and i would have thought that flying the stars and stripes from a tank in that situation would be totally inappropiate
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angus.. if you listen to the transcripts of the "negotiations" you will see that when karesh is out of it one of the followers who is doing the negotiations asks how they could surrender and come out and the negotiator tells him it is too late for that.
regardless.. it is not up to the children to have to depend on the adults to surrender.. There is no excuse for my country or people in my employ to kill helpless children like that.. we are supposed to protect them not kill em.
lazs
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It's a siege already before the press is hushed further away.
And there were many women around.
Point being that if there hadn't been such a control inside, a white flag on a pole would have done the trick.
What the heck do you do in a completely surrounded house with heavily armed troops around all on the outside and women and children inside? No option by surrender, and you have to be profoundly whacked to think that you get away with taking pot shots at them and think you get away by waiting inside.
Koresh was a whacko, and the siege was a mess-up imho. Well, wouldn't surprize me that they'd have starved themselves to death anyway.
As for those others, I'm just plain glad they got raided. Well, imagine having your kids getting sucked into a cult like that, and you have cult grandkids and great grandkids in record time. yeacchhh.!
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Waco was the fault of the Davidians.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline.html
On July 21, 2000, after a 10 month investigation, Danforth issued a preliminary report exonerating the government and its agents. His report concluded that federal agents did not start the fire, direct gunfire at the complex, or improperly employ US armed forces. Danforth assigned responsibility for the tragedy to the Branch Davidians and David Koresh. According to the report, they contributed to the tragedy by refusing to exit the compound during the 51 day standoff, directing gunfire at FBI agents, shooting members of the compound, and ultimately setting the fire that burned the compound down.
Danforth did find, however, that an FBI agent fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds at a concrete pit 75 feet from the living quarters of the compound. Although these rounds did not start the fire, government officials did not admit their use until August 1999, more than six years later. Danforth found that this negligence was at best a mishandling of evidence, and at worst a criminal attempt to conceal the truth from investigators.
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well.. if a government report said it wasn't the goverments fault then that settles it.
Maybe you should watch "rules of engagement" and see for yourself.
Still.. I don't think that there is anyone who does not believe that if the government had not sent in the storm troops no one would have died.. the whole thing was the fault of the government sending in a black clad army to make a tax raid.. to grandstand.
None of it was necessary and we all know it.. the davidians had a standing offer to have their place searched by the local police or even ATF agents who were in the company of local law.. for some strange reason.. they did not trust the feds!
The local cops had been there many times.. they never felt the need to even wear masks much less full ninja gear and machine guns. the local cops had no fear of the davidians.. least nothing like the paranoid gestapo like attitude that caused the raid and all the deaths.
As a citizen.. I am ashamed that a force in my employ caused the deaths of all those people. I can see no excuse for what happened.. I see no crime or danger that justified putting so many people... especially children in such a life threatening position.
What the hell were they thinking? How did they think they were going to assure the safety of the women and children? Did anyone even think at all?
lazs
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Waco was simply an example of all that is wrong with our criminal justice system. Yet 15 years later we've done little if anything to adequately prevent another occurrence. If anything we've made it easier. Now so many of us are convinced there's a boogie man behind every corner all we do is wring our hands and quietly bemoan the outrages conducted daily by, pardon the irony, "civil servants" who we employ to protect our justly valued way of life.
I really thought Waco and Ruby Ridge would prove to be watershed incidents that would bring about more realistic and reasoned oversight of the law enforcement industry. Glad I didn't put any money on it.
The situation in Eldorado doesn't appear to have the potential to escalate as with other incidents but it seems the authorities are again ignoring the law and the rules of due process. I'm sure there were plenty of officials licking their lips at the prospect of furthering their careers at the expense of fellow citizen's and the constitution.
Like before this will undoubtedly prove to be a huge can of worms. As far as I can see no criminal charges have been filed, nor does it appear there was any prior investigation into this apparently large group of evidently odd fundamentalists. Apparently their neighbors to date had no problem with them nor did the community they resided in.
I could be wrong, all I have to go on is what's been reported by the mainstream media and I've learned to take an inverse view of their credibility.
I don't believe this will turn out like another Waco ala firefights, burning children and all that but I fear it will turn out to be another Waco with regards to official misconduct. Just because it happens to weirdo's doesn't mean it's ok.
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Anyway, Waco was a whacko incident. The people inside never heard of a white flag I guess....
A white flag doesn`t do anyone much good when the people on the other side of the firing line refuses to honor it.
There was a white flag put out of a window early in the siege. The person placing the flag was fired upon .
The people inside were lied to repeatedly in attempts to get them outside.....then were fired upon.
When it first became obvious the Davidians were being investigated by the ATF, David invited them to come search the premises and weapons for legality at any time. He was told "That`s not how we want to do it" and hung up on.
The local Sheriff had been there many times and had an open invitation.
Up until the time of the fiasco, the Davidians were known as The Branch Davidians..........not a cult.
That came from the smear campaign in an attempt to cover the ATF/FBI rears.
You do realize here that anything that goes against the grain of the government that a mass media operation is implemented intended to ridicule and smear the target of the time don`t you? It`s public knowledge now. Not only used in these circumstances but others as well......even something as silly as reported UFO sightings of many numbers.
You bring up the children. The warrant wasn`t for the children. If you have charges against someone , you file those charges and make arrest accordingly.........but it that is not what the warrant was for. BTW........the warrant was NOT a no knock warrant.
According to our laws if you are being attacked and fired upon you have a right to defend yourself.
Do some more research and I think you will find many, many things on the ATF/Gov side is not only questionable , but has been proven totally bogus.
One of the most disgraceful things to ever happen in our country.
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SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1993:
At about 9:30 a.m. agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempt to execute arrest and search warrants against David KORESH and the Branch Davidian compound. Gunfire erupts. Four ATF agents are killed and 16 are wounded. An undetermined number of Davidians are killed and injured.
Innocent gunfire innocently kills 4 ATF agents, accidentally I'm sure.
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So MT.. how did koresh get wounded and the other guy killed? they were unarmed at the door.
the only ATF agents killed were the no knock ninjas trying to sneak into a second story window with loaded machineguns. They were shot with perfectly legal bolt and semi auto guns by owners of the building.
All this over nothing.. all of it could have been prevented if the government had acted like adults instead of pretend ninjas.
lazs
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Innocent gunfire innocently kills 4 ATF agents, accidentally I'm sure.
When private property is illegally attacked and comes under fire, property owners have a right to defend themselves and their property in this country.
Give it time though and maybe more people who think the attack was Okie dokie and falls for the pure form of BS
put forth and fed to the media can get together and turn this country into something similar to Nazi rule.
That way there would be no resources for any recourse or protection against such things. The minds of some would be put at ease. All choices would be made by the government for the people. The people wouldn`t have to be bothered with making decisions for themselves.
I mean ,after all ,the government knows better than the population what is best for them.............right?
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Weird how the 16 year old girl who supposedly called in the abuse, has not been found yet and more then likely does not exist.
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I was thinking that if they've know about this place for 4 years then they would have had a better plan for the anticipated mother/child removal/storage system than they currently have.
I mean hell, they had enough time to plan the thing out. That's for sure.
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cop "hey chief, i just got a anonymous 911 call"
chief "roll the tanks, it's showtime"
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You have to realize that there are a lot of government police agencies all vying for a bigger and bigger chunk of your tax burden..
They need to justify the money. they need to justify a bigger force.. they need headlines and spectacular busts.
Has anyone seen any government alphabet soup police agency make any busts that justified their billion dollar budgets lately? local cops do thousands of times more good. even terrorists have been mostly busted by street cops.
But even cops are getting bad.. how do you justify a swat team for instance? if you really only need it once a year or less? If it never is even there till the thing is over anyway?
Seen a front page picture of a "hells angels" ATF bust... the guys arrested were all in their 50's.. the "guns" recovered in the 10 month stakeout and highly planned raid were a bunch of all surplus rifles that anyone here can buy at a sporting goods store for less than a c note and some target pistols and cheap short shotguns.. even a couple of replica black powder guns from more than a century ago.
It always backfires on em but.. no one cares. no one cares how bad a job they do or how little. they keep getting funded and they keep making costly and dangerous mistakes.
lazs
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Yep, those local cops are all we need....
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20377
FBI arrests NHPD cops
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So, it's gun culture...on both sides?
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Starting to wonder about this whole thing. I'm no fan of LDS polygamists but why did they need Texas Wildlife officers, an APC and all if they've been watching these folks for months or years? Their intel is so bad that the only thing they find is a couple of hunting rifles yet they send in everybody but the dog catcher?
To top it off they still haven't found the girl that filed the complaint they said they acted upon?
Just exactly what is the basis for this whole thing then? A suspicion? Was there a grand jury action first?
Lots of facts missing but if Texas was stomping on the 4th Amendment, I hope there's a huge repercussion.
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Well regarding the girl, - well I think it is established beyond belief that they were doing multi-wife games as well as being with very young ones.
And in situations like this, cults I mean, - it is often very hard to get things clear. Subjects are too afraid.
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Ok so they were allegely wife-swapping and boffing underage girls.
I doubt swapping is prohibited in Texas but I don't know that; consenting adults and all that.
Underage is prohibited but you need to have some proof. So far they have not found the girl that complained. That would be a BIG problem in court if the state tries to convict someone I would think. It would be a BIG problem if the polys sue the state over this raid.
Or am I missing something?
Again, why all the guns? They've been watching these clowns for years and they didn't know all they had was a couple of hunting rifles? Due diligence? Intel?
Or do they just expect to be dealing with the Mahdi militia every time they knock on a door in the US and skip the intel part?
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Haven't found THE girl.
Still plenty of statutory rape charges to go around though.
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I admit I haven't watched enough news, so I may lack some information.
Are you saying they DO have underage plaintiffs claiming statutory rape? Or witnesses to uphold the charges?
Like I said, I haven't been following it all that closely.
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MSNBC:
Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety, said the criminal investigation was still under way and that charges would be filed if investigators determined children were abused.
No charges have been filed a week after the raid?
Forgive me for saying it but does this start to look like a fishing expedition to anyone else?
I do not doubt the possibility of statutory rape in this case; certainly Jeffs ...disciples... are a strange enough crew.
But, again, was their grand jury agreement before the raid? I have not seen that?
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Well now... from the latest news I have heard...
The person who called originally has not been found. No one in the group pulled from the compound knows anyone by that name. One girl with a name close to that name was grilled for better than 3 hours... nothing.
The women were given the choice of staying at a home for abused women or returning..... all but 5 returned to the compound. The 5 that stayed were going with the youngest of the children.
The women were not allowed to see their children before leaving. The children have been taken away from them.
This is really starting to turn into a classic nazi type operation.
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Starting to wonder about this whole thing. I'm no fan of LDS polygamists but why did they need Texas Wildlife officers
In case something is contested in the warrant/warrants.
A trumped up suspicion of a game violation going in will cover this.
Texas game wardens do not require a warrant to enter your home/property for a search. They can use what back up on a search they desire.
It`s used a lot on drug raids.
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Which has yet to materialize.
COLORADO SPRINGS — A court document says a phone number used to report alleged abuse at a polygamist retreat in Texas had been used previously by a 33-year-old Colorado woman.
It's not yet clear whether authorities suspect Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs made any of the calls that triggered this month's raid of the compound.
An arrest warrant affidavit made public today says a phone number she had used previously was used to call a Texas crisis center before authorities conducted the raid and removed more than 400 children. Swinton's whereabouts are unknown.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/23/phone-number-polygamist-case-linked-colo-woman/
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The document released today shows Swinton had an extensive record in Colorado Springs of posing as a troubled teen and making false claims.
:)
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BTW, didn't they DNA test some of the folks?
Anyway, with free will they can #### each other as much as they want, if they just leave the minors out of it....
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angus.. I agree.
lazs
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Kinda strange.
Within a Week they can do DNA tests on a 100 kids to determine who the Fathers are yet it took over a Month to try and find out who the Father was to Anna Nicole Smiths baby.
Seems like 100 kids of a religeous cult doesn't get the media coverage of a unmarried drug addicted has been PlayBoy Bunny / Gold Diggin Model?
Just an observation.
Mac
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I agree with Angus.
The problem I have with the whole mess is the way things have been conducted. Very shoddy and bordering on criminal in itself.
Holding the entire male population on the property with no charges filed sounds a whole lot like illegal detainment to me. Actually......it sounds more like hostage taking..............or a police state.
It resembles a scenario where a murder or other crime has been committed in a small town.....so the entire town is surrounded and everyone is held until it can be worked out.
If you have charges against someone, file the charges and make the arrest. If not the whole mess is based on BS.
Fishing trips are best done at the lake.
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why does texas attract the weird religious people?
Next thing you know there will be a group of WW2 aircraft worshipping group of old farts calling texas mecca.
oh wait..
nevermind.
:rofl :rofl
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News update on this.
Actually looks fishy.
460 under age may have been abused. A new batch of 25 girls were found to have become pregnant before they were 18 (well that happens, but by batches in a religious sort of colony smells like some sort of a norm)
DNA tests are now being used to try and figure out who belongs to who.
Well, if had a say...16 years old daughter that gets involved with some pregnancy cult in Texas as wife#3 of some 50 year old......what could I do? Go in guns blazing? Noi, they would be allowed to shoot me!
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pregnancy cult in Texas
:rofl
Need a refill?
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why does texas attract the weird religious people?
Next thing you know there will be a group of WW2 aircraft worshipping group of old farts calling texas mecca.
oh wait..
nevermind.
:rofl :rofl
Texas may have been perceived as a state with liberty and the freedom to live and let live. I think the reality is changing.
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I think it's disturbing that there's confusion here on the part of the authorities. If (supposedly) they've been watching these guys for years, you'd think they'd have their act together. What are they doing, just making it up as they go? Heck, they've not even figured out which kids belong to which parents, yet they're farming those kids out to foster homes without even having definitively shown abuse? Shame on them for not having order in this whole thing.
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OK, here's my take. The call that set everything off was false. The cops had no probable cause to raid the place (see recent SCOTUS ruling). There was bad things happening there that needed to be stopped, but you have freedom of religion, right to privacy and probably a couple more constitutional issues involved. The rightwing government we have in Texas marched in like they were Bush in Iraq using any excuse, true or not.
Anyone here watch "Big Love" on HBO? I can't wait to see how they portray this.
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I also feel the authorities messed this one up. I believe there were some bad things happing in that place, but the whole thing was not processed properly. There is no excuse for the way it was handled if the authorities had truly been watching that place for so long.