Author Topic: Hopefully not another Waco  (Read 2625 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2008, 10:04:38 AM »
In Waco the criminals commited suicide and took their innocent children with them.
The shots came from inside the building.. video shows the shots being fired.

If there was nothing to hide they should have just came out and cleared everything up.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 10:16:54 AM by Shuffler »
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Offline Bingolong

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2008, 10:20:04 AM »
So who's next the Amish? For not letting there kids watch TV?  maybe some other town that only home schools their children?
where is the law? 401 kids common!

most religious faiths brainwash their kids it starts before age 1. If the kids were to make there own decisions they wouldn't be taught religion they would come to it when they were old enough to make a decision themselves.

Offline lazs2

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2008, 10:22:18 AM »
shuffler.. I think that you are wrong.    I think that films of the event show that you are wrong.   I think that it is obvious to anyone who can think that all of this could have been avoided..  Koresh could have been arrested while out jogging.  the place could have been searched peacefully at any time.   

If the government had nothing to hide then why did they keep the press away from the scene and why was it so hard to get copies of the tapes?   why did so many just vanish?   there were 4 cameras running at the original shots fired (at the front door) where only an unarmed karesh and davidians were hit.. yet.. none of the tapes of that initial contact could be found.

Let me ask you.. if you came out to see what was going on with the less than sneaky ninjas all over your yard and were shot at and wounded..  what would you do when they started coming in through a second floor window?   

If the negotiator told you that it was "too late for that" when you asked how to surrender.. what would you do?

were  you happy to see the ATF flag over the burning corpses of 28 children and as many adults?

When did the davidians fire at the ATF other than when they tried to break into the second story window guns drawn?   They could have killed every one of those ATF guys who fired mag after mag into a house full of children until their guns went dry and then they had to beg to leave and not be shot.. every one of those idiots could easily have been killed as they trudged their cowardly ninja clad bodies back to safety while dragging their empty machine guns.

All because... all because there MAY have been illegal weapons.. ones that a tax had not been paid on... ones that never got produced after the "fire".   

The ATF turned a tax case into the killing of men women and... CHILDREN.

sure. the davidians were nutty as a crap house rat for the most part and maybe not what I want for my kids.. but they didn't deserve this.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2008, 10:24:32 AM »
Waco is another example of what the SWAT mentality can do.  Mr. Koresh went into town frequently, they could have arrested him there or sent a normal officer pair to the 'compound'.  Sending a massive paramilitary task force in the beginning was almost guaranteed to cause the reaction that happened.
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Offline Shamus

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2008, 10:38:12 AM »
What I found rather interesting was the claim by the government that the davidians fired through the front door at the agents and the claim by the davidians that the agents fired through it at them.

When the defense lawyer subpoenaed the door he was told by the government, oops we cant find the door, sorry does not pass the smell test.

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Offline Jackal1

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2008, 09:48:33 PM »
Call me crazy, but I think they torched the complex themselves

The government is here to help.


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  "  FLIR Footage
    One of the most sensational segments of this documentary involves aerial Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) movie footage taken by the FBI's own observation plane over the Waco compound. The FLIR footage looks like black-and-white television camera footage, but registers heat sources. It is the same technology used by U.S. forces during Desert Storm. Sandwiched between the FLIR movie clips are the repeated claims by FBI officials and their congressional supporters that the FBI "did not fire a single shot" during the entire siege. We see, for instance, Representative Gene Taylor (D-MS) asking, "Did the FBI fire one shot —even one shot — at the Davidian compound?" To which senior FBI official Larry Potts (of Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Oklahoma City bombing infamy) replies, "No sir, not throughout the entire standoff." The problem is that those claims —according to the FBI's own FLIR footage — are obviously blatant lies. The Gif-fords' Waco takes us step by step through the most important segments of the FLIR film, often using freeze frames or slow motion, accompanied by commentary from Dr. Edward F. Allard, one of the top authorities on FLIR technology.

    Dr. Allard, a former deputy director of the U.S. Defense Department's Night Vision Laboratory, helped pioneer much of the infrared thermal imaging technology now in use and holds patents on FLIR-re-lated inventions. In a calm, scientific manner, Allard authoritatively explains the significance of various heat sources seen on the film, including what he asserts are clearly muzzle flashes from automatic weapons fire from outside the building being fired into the building. Much of this shooting into the building follows what Allard describes as the FBI's "infantry/ tank maneuver" in which federal officers on foot apparently are using the armored tank for cover as it punches through the walls of the complex.

    Dr. Allard's assessment is backed up by an analysis conducted by the Infraspection Institute for CBS' 60 Minutes. (The CBS newshounds never broadcast their blockbuster findings, of course, which is what one would expect from the network that aptly has been dubbed the "Clintonista Broadcast Service.") In addition to his video testimony, we have reviewed Dr. Allard's sworn affidavit concerning the FLIR footage, which adds even more compelling weight to his charge.

    If the Allard and Infraspection analyses of the FLIR film are correct — and to the (admittedly untrained) eyes of this viewer their expert analyses very convincingly match what is actually seen on the film —then this one segment alone from Waco: The Rules of Engagement is sufficient to completely demolish one of the government's central contentions and to justify officially reopening this case. It not only demonstrates that FBI and Justice Department officials, including Attorney General Janet Reno, lied repeatedly under oath when they claimed that no shots were fired by the FBI, but may also mean that the same federal officers who fired into the building are guilty of murdering Davidians who were trying to flee the burning building."

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"

    "Massive Gas"
    The incredible decision to use the deadly CS "tear gas" in the first place is yet another matter that was never adequately examined in official investigations. The gas attack actually involved enormous quantities of CS powder dissolved in methylene chloride (paint thinner) pumped into the Davidian complex through a long pipe protruding from an armored tank. The concentrations the Davidians — including many elderly people, women, and small children —were subjected to were many times higher than would normally be used by police or military units. As FBI spokesman Bob Ricks stated in a press conference as the attack got underway, "We put massive gas in there." Indeed, and as various experts testified, these were lethal levels, especially for the babies, who could not be fitted with gas masks.

    And when the toxic, flammable mixture burned, it produced even deadlier hydrogen cyanide gas, the same substance used in prison gas chambers. William Marcus, an inhalant toxicologist for the federal EPA who is interviewed on the effects of hydrogen cyanide, explains that it makes the muscles contract so violently that they actually bend and break one's bones. A photo of the body of one of the Davidian children shows the small corpse with the spine bent severely backward, the obvious result of the cyanide gas.

    For anyone who watched the televised 1995 Waco hearings conducted by the Joint Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives, surely one of the most gratingly memorable characters must be the snide, sneering, sanctimonious, acid-tongued Representative Charles Schumer (D-NY). Fortunately, Waco: The Rules of Engagement allows the ever-obnoxious Schumer repeatedly to discredit himself with his own words. In one segment of the hearings Schumer is shown upbraiding defense attorney Dick DeGuerin for referring to the FBI's "flash-bangs" as grenades. Schumer fulminates: "This idea of the FBI having hand grenades, not flash-bangs, but hand grenades — And then the coup de grace, Mr. DeGuerin says flash-bangs can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything about these things knows they can't."

    The documentary then cuts to Congressman Bob Barr (R-CA) questioning ATF agent Jim Cavanaugh. Barr asks if the flash-bangs used by the ATF and referred to by Schumer are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 6845 (f), to which Cavanaugh answers in the affirmative. Barr then asks if it is true that they can kill people, to which Cavanaugh replies, "Certainly. Yes sir."

   
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2008, 05:27:07 PM »
So you live in a totalitarian state then, that toasts innocent davidans if they can't be shot in the first place? And get away with it through the whole political system, of course.
Pardon me, but I don't buy that all. My bead is that the authorities may have screwed up a raid on whackjobs. They may even have learned from it since dealing with teen-fornicating-multi-flesh-for-getting-to-heaven has not brought many corpses yet.
I am actually amazed that the thread went this way though.
There were deads at Waco. But how many a bad thing happens before the crap hits the mill?
Are groups like that simply allowed to do watever to teen girls because of their rights?
How do you feel about girl circumsicion (SP?) in Africa BTW? It's a twist of a religion, and it must be the supervisors right. And definately better than high school.
DOH  :mad:
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2008, 11:26:00 PM »
There were deads at Waco. But how many a bad thing happens before the crap hits the mill?

You mean before someone like Timothy McVeigh lashes out and bombs a government building?
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Offline Angus

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2008, 06:07:36 AM »
Not exactly....
Anyway, Waco was a whacko incident. The people inside never heard of a white flag I guess....
(Oh, am tempted to say something evil regarding the ...Italians (not French) but...I'll skip it  :t)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Excel1

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2008, 07:01:46 AM »
The government is here to help.
(Image removed from quote.)

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i never really followed the waco thing but that pic is unreal. could be a scene from hue south vietnam during tet.

and i would have thought that flying the stars and stripes from a tank in that situation would be totally inappropiate



 

« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 07:04:29 AM by Excel1 »

Offline lazs2

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2008, 08:11:56 AM »
angus.. if you listen to the transcripts of the "negotiations" you will see that when karesh is out of it one of the followers who is doing the negotiations asks how they could surrender and come out and the negotiator tells him it is too late for that.

regardless.. it is not up to the children to have to depend on the adults to surrender.. There is no excuse for my country or people in my employ to kill helpless children like that..  we are supposed to protect them not kill em.

lazs

Offline Angus

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2008, 08:21:34 AM »
It's a siege already before the press is hushed further away.
And there were many women around.
Point being that if there hadn't been such a control inside, a white flag on a pole would have done the trick.

What the heck do you do in a completely surrounded house with heavily armed troops around all on the outside and women and children inside? No option by surrender, and you have to be profoundly whacked to think that you get away with taking pot shots at them and think you get away by waiting inside.

Koresh was a whacko, and the siege was a mess-up imho. Well, wouldn't surprize me that they'd have starved themselves to death anyway.

As for those others, I'm just plain glad they got raided. Well, imagine having your kids getting sucked into a cult like that, and you have cult grandkids and great grandkids in record time. yeacchhh.!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline midnight Target

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2008, 08:24:33 AM »
Waco was the fault of the Davidians.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline.html

Quote
On July 21, 2000, after a 10 month investigation, Danforth issued a preliminary report exonerating the government and its agents. His report concluded that federal agents did not start the fire, direct gunfire at the complex, or improperly employ US armed forces. Danforth assigned responsibility for the tragedy to the Branch Davidians and David Koresh. According to the report, they contributed to the tragedy by refusing to exit the compound during the 51 day standoff, directing gunfire at FBI agents, shooting members of the compound, and ultimately setting the fire that burned the compound down.

Danforth did find, however, that an FBI agent fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds at a concrete pit 75 feet from the living quarters of the compound. Although these rounds did not start the fire, government officials did not admit their use until August 1999, more than six years later. Danforth found that this negligence was at best a mishandling of evidence, and at worst a criminal attempt to conceal the truth from investigators.


Offline lazs2

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2008, 08:37:48 AM »
well.. if a government report said it wasn't the goverments fault then that settles it.

Maybe you should watch "rules of engagement" and see for yourself.   

Still.. I don't think that there is anyone who does not believe that if the government had not sent in the storm troops no one would have died.. the whole thing was the fault of the government sending in a black clad army to make a tax raid.. to grandstand.

None of it was necessary and we all know it.. the davidians had a standing offer to have their place searched by the local police or even ATF agents who were in the company of local law.. for some strange reason.. they did not trust the feds!

The local cops had been there many times.. they never felt the need to even wear masks much less full ninja gear and machine guns.  the local cops had no fear of the davidians.. least nothing like the paranoid gestapo like attitude that caused the raid and all the deaths.

As a citizen.. I am ashamed that a force in my employ caused the deaths of all those people.  I can see no excuse for what happened.. I see no crime or danger that justified putting so many people... especially children in such a life threatening position.   

What the hell were they thinking?   How did they think they were going to assure the safety of the women and children?   Did anyone even think at all?   

lazs

Offline Thruster

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Re: Hopefully not another Waco
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2008, 09:01:18 AM »
Waco was simply an example of all that is wrong with our criminal justice system. Yet 15 years later we've done little if anything to adequately prevent another occurrence. If anything we've made it easier. Now so many of us are convinced there's a boogie man behind every corner all we do is wring our hands and quietly bemoan the outrages conducted daily by, pardon the irony, "civil servants" who we employ to protect our justly valued way of life.

I really thought Waco and Ruby Ridge would prove to be watershed incidents that would bring about more realistic and reasoned oversight of the law enforcement industry. Glad I didn't put any money on it.

The situation in Eldorado doesn't appear to have the potential to escalate as with other incidents but it seems the authorities are again ignoring the law and the rules of due process. I'm sure there were plenty of officials licking their lips at the prospect of furthering their careers at the expense of fellow citizen's and the constitution.

Like before this will undoubtedly prove to be a huge can of worms. As far as I can see no criminal charges have been filed, nor does it appear there was any prior investigation into this apparently large group of evidently odd fundamentalists. Apparently their neighbors to date had no problem with them nor did the community they resided in.

I could be  wrong, all I have to go on is what's been reported by the mainstream media and I've learned to take an inverse view of their credibility.

I don't believe this will turn out like another Waco ala firefights, burning children and all that but I fear it will turn out to be another Waco with regards to official misconduct. Just because it happens to weirdo's doesn't mean it's ok.