Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Brocster on April 11, 2008, 12:06:33 PM
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Well, for what it's worth, here is my two cents on a way to try to solve what seems to be a general complaint about this game - score hoarding in it's varying forms. In essence, it is the continuing comments and issues around the lack of willingness to fight in the MA.
Just a little background and general comments first. I have been playing AH for quite some time. My posts may make me look like a Noob, but that is only because I took two years off, starting again last month. I first played AHI, starting in early 02, and played AH quite regularly until about two years ago, where I had to take time off for both work and school reasons. I only say this to perhaps show that I have some experience and history here.
I do agree that the game has changed. However, one can really look at this two ways. First, most of the complaining on the BBS comes from seasoned sticks who love a challenging fight and have the skills to prove it, for the most part I guess. They are not really concerned (generally) about scores and are most interested in mastering less than easy aircraft. For example, I very rarely see vets in Spit 16's or La-La's---the S.A.P.P's in their 38's, and recently seeing the Muppets in the Hawgs help show this. However, a majority of the people playing ARE concerned with scores, and therefore, fly planes or tactics that they feel will allow them to survive, even if those tactics are not the best in a more seasoned players mind.
Second, and I know this will tickle the ire of a few vets, one can argue that the same tactics that cause a few noses to wrinkle here would be considered proper if this was not a cartoon game. I am by no means an aviation expert, but, I have tried to really learn about WWII aviation over the years. One of the common points stressed by leadership in the fighter ranks, from the Flying Tiger days through Thomas McGuire's rules on the 38's use, was to stay fast and, in essence, boom and zoom and stay in the advantage. To a point, the tactics that are applied by these folk are simply in line with that thought, whether they know it or not.
Still this is a game, and what is right for some is completely against what others are looking for.
One other quick point: often posts seem irate, mean, pointed etc... Some are intended that way. However, only about 7% - 10% of a persons communciation actually gets through properly via text. Much of what a person is trying to say, and how they are saying it, get's lost. I think that inflames the issue.
One of the reasons I had to take off for two years was to attend Business School. One of the things drilled into our thick skulls there is that if one does not like the results of a certain "game" (they actually use this term), don't look at the players, first look at the game itself as well as the processes the game utilizes/rewards.
That said, here is what I propose:
The actions of picking/running/boom-zoom-scram, and just a general lack of engagement is a result of the game rewarding this behavior. It does so in two ways - Aknowledging multiple kills landed via 200 as well as the ranking system. These two "things", more than anything else, validate the actions that we see in the MA. If we would like a different result, change the system! I propose that one MA in late war be changed to operate with different rules. Still have base captures/strategy as intended, but simply remove the "kills landed" message, and, change the weight of ranking so the kills/death ratio does not factor in as heavily, or at all. I propose being farily harsh with the last idea (making it a non-issue) so as to really see if the idea works.
Coming from an IT background, I would assume that these slight modifications would not be difficult to implement. Also, I would not add a third MA, simply take Orange or Blue and apply the new rules to it. This might cause a new ranking system, but still, it can be tried as a few months long experiment, simply moved back if the idea does not work. Change can be a good thing, especially if it provides positive results.
I fully believe that is the social desire to land kills is taken away, we will see much more agressive fighting in the MA. In fact, one can even add new messages/scoring to promote the engagement of dogfights/acm.
As one of my strategy books says, "If you desire different results, do not change the players, change the game!".
Well.....thoughts?
Thanks,
Broc
As a side note, I have had some very fun fights of late - I agree there is nothing more ewarding here than a good multi-minute dogfight, even if I get shot down.
<S>
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I think you have A little too much time on your hands.
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Well, for what it's worth, here is my two cents on a way to try to solve what seems to be a general complaint about this game - score hoarding in it's varying forms. In essence, it is the continuing comments and issues around the lack of willingness to fight in the MA.
You are trying to solve something that you perceive as a problem, that you have not shown to be a problem.
You are correct that changing the score system has an effect on game play, but not that your choice of game play would be better.
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I could give to shytes about score. I just wanna have fu-un... *CRAP* now I have that song in my head...
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You are trying to solve something that you perceive as a problem, that you have not shown to be a problem.
You are correct that changing the score system has an effect on game play, but not that your choice of game play would be better.
Just to clarify... I actually don't think the game is broke.... I just get on the BBS and there are usually tons of complaints about the gameplay from folks... This was just my way of responding to think of an option..
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I like the in depth scoring system in AH (even though I don't actually play to its metrics). In all these years, I think this is the only tweak I've suggested
(# of enemy in proximity/# of friendlies within proximity)=ProxyMod
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Damage vs Eny points logged for incident
and...
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Perk points logged for incident
Seriously! Im sick of the "war game"/"overwhelming force"/"teamplay" mentality of some sects in the game. Mind you, not the normal Murphies Law of gameplay, but the guys who think AH is about calling the whole squad in on one lone enemy.
The guy in a 4v1 should get x4 points for damaging enemy planes, and the 4 hero's attacking the lone enemy should get x0.25 points.
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I think you have A little too much time on your hands.
Heaven forbid he is actually trying to offer suggestions on how to improve the game and general quality of game play. Can you say the same? Don't think so.
ack-ack
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Heaven forbid he is actually trying to offer suggestions on how to improve the game and general quality of game play. Can you say the same? Don't think so.
ack-ack
Joke-a matter that need not be taken very seriously.
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I like stats.... I don't like scores/ranks.
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Scoring system stinks...you can fly/gv 3 missions each for the month and get a very low rating....I killed 400 fighters and bombers and I rank 800 and something......the guys that know how to work the system get the low ranks...the work horses get the high rank...not fair at all.
Its not about whos the best its about who knows how to abuse the system that get the low ranks!
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Scoring system stinks...you can fly/gv 3 missions each for the month and get a very low rating....I killed 400 fighters and bombers and I rank 800 and something......the guys that know how to work the system get the low ranks...the work horses get the high rank...not fair at all.
Its not about whos the best its about who knows how to abuse the system that get the low ranks!
Though the usual whine is that all the guys with insane hours per month only get the good ranks...
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Scoring system stinks...you can fly/gv 3 missions each for the month and get a very low rating....I killed 400 fighters and bombers and I rank 800 and something......the guys that know how to work the system get the low ranks...the work horses get the high rank...not fair at all.
Its not about whos the best its about who knows how to abuse the system that get the low ranks!
Grin :)
Boy that golf scoring system must be totaly screwed, because the best golfer I know of dosn't care to try for a good score any more, and instead just goes out to see how many hole in ones he can make. But lesser players always get better scores. Man that golf score system sucks. It just dosn't reflect who is the better gollfer.
HiTech
You've pretty much made my point that context matters.
If a sizeable number of players in golf suddenly played only to see how many holes in one they could make while everyone else played for score, then the golf scoring system would not provide an accurate measure of skill. It would rank winners and losers based on existing golf rules, sure, but as a metric for skill it would suffer.
The AH scoring system is a bit more complex to compare to something like a golf score anyway. I hate to say it, but it seems closer to figure skating than golf. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
Bull puppy.
The system would still accuratly provide a measure of golf skill. But your players are no longer playing golf they are now playing a different game. And since your players are not interested in their golf score, they wouldn't even keep track.
So are you interested in playing golf, or do you just want to head to the driving range. Both are perfectly acceptible, but don't try tell the golfers they should forget about it and just go to the driving range instead, because in your view distance is the only TRUE method for messuring a golfers talents.
HiTech
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Btw.. I could give a flying turd what my score is....just stating my opinion :D
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Ive seen alot of new names out there on the field and as with new people there going to play the score and rank game and try and get perks for better rides. im shure that even people that have played for some time get bored and change tactics.
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Ive seen alot of new names out there on the field and as with new people there going to play the score and rank game and try and get perks for better rides. im shure that even people that have played for some time get bored and change tactics.
Far too often at that point they do not only change their tactics and style but also forget what they did before. They become hypocrites attacking, denouncing and belitteling other, probably newer players that did not "see the light" yet.
A few days ago I saw a regular playing for a few years ranting about that "skilles n00bs", how the game is degrading from all that lame spawncamping, picking, no one wants to fight any more, all are just scorehores and so on...
The sad thing is, I clearly remember that very player merrly camping GV spawns on many occasions with me a few years ago, and even more.
People sometimes get very selective with their memories.
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The guy in a 4v1 should get x4 points for damaging enemy planes, and the 4 hero's attacking the lone enemy should get x0.25 points.
:aok
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Lusche there's nothing hypocritical about it if they have, in fact, changed their minds about it.
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Even if your ideas were implemented, I would still try to land kills whenever possible. Those of us who see air-combat this way don't do it for the score, but to deny the enemy a chance at the pleasure of shooting us down. At least, that's one of the reasons.
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You mean you do it so the other guy loses, not so you win?
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No.
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"It's not enough to win- someone else has to lose"
Rank is not an indicator of skill, and never has been. As long as the destruction of immobile, inanimate, undefended objects is used as a metric for ranking players, the system will never be able to determine who the better combatants are. It's just a scavenger hunt, nothing more.
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Those of us who see air-combat this way don't do it for the score, but to deny the enemy a chance at the pleasure of shooting us down.
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"It's not enough to win- someone else has to lose"
Rank is not an indicator of skill, and never has been. As long as the destruction of immobile, inanimate, undefended objects is used as a metric for ranking players, the system will never be able to determine who the better combatants are. It's just a scavenger hunt, nothing more.
You right Hub. I'm not sure what rank is an indicator of other than getting control of TG's. But I do know one thing that is an indicator, that's a person's reputation regardless their score. We know who is good at what and in what plane. Even the players that haven't played in a long time, even years, will still be listed on the bbs when some one starts a "who's your favorite pilot" thread. Now I have completely forgotten where I was going with this. I've been up for 21 hours and need to go to bed.
Lambo
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Read the whole comment, moot. I do it so the other guy loses, and I win. :aok That's what landing kills is about. I flew the same way in Warbids years ago even when you didn't get your landed kills announced in the buffer. It's a preference for realism--dying was bad for real pilots--dying is bad for virtual pilots. Dead is dead. For once, I find myself defending HTC and the way things have been implemented.
I still get shot down sometimes, outflown, picked, etc. It happens, I learn from it. But deriding the accomplishment of landing kills stinks like a bad conscience.
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"It's not enough to win- someone else has to lose"
Rank is not an indicator of skill, and never has been. As long as the destruction of immobile, inanimate, undefended objects is used as a metric for ranking players, the system will never be able to determine who the better combatants are. It's just a scavenger hunt, nothing more.
And even then it still wouldn't be a good indicator, as one could just fly in a horde, vulch a few people and then rtb from a very score friendly sortie.
donkey
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the only time i rtb is when im out of ammo or blood all over the canopy, that said, i do very much enjoy landing kills when i was jumped by 4 or more, no it dont happen much! but once in awhile i am on in targeting and just cant seem to miss,although that is very rare!!
some of these AHers are so good at shooting it just blows me away(literally) i just cant seem to get it!
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Asimple piece of duct tape over the area where your text box is, remedys all that b.s. . Problem solved, now go have fun. :aok
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IMO score has little to do with the issue. A simple example is just go to the DA. There is no score there and you see all the same crap there. So if score alone was the reason then you wouldn't see the same stuff happen there as well.
IMO it's the mentality of the average gamer these days.. I can't claim to be a vet as I've only been here a short time, however I think I can handle my own in most 1 vs 1 fights. I may get beat or I might win but I've taken the time to learn by getting killed countless times.
I feel I share the same attitude as many of the vets meaning what matters to me is the fight over anything else and perfecting the skill of dog fighting in just about any plane.
In reality, I don't think the problem comes down to it being a score issue for the most part. Lets face it, this game has a steep learning curve and there is constant influx of new players. Most of them aren't going to put the time in it takes to actually learn to dog fight. They want quake 3 instant gratification and have no respect for the actual fight,. How can they have any respect for the fight if they haven't taken the time to learn how to fight.
So as we have older seasoned players stop playing for this reason or that and so many new players joining, there is just no way to teach them or make them want to learn and respect the actual dog fight. I used to think it maybe a score issue, sure for some it's likely the cause for being timid, but the more I think of it, the constant influx of new players is the main cause. It's easier for them to learn bad habits rather than learn the art of dog fighting.
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In reality, I don't think the problem comes down to it being a score issue for the most part. Lets face it, this game has a steep learning curve and there is constant influx of new players. Most of them aren't going to put the time in it takes to actually learn to dog fight. They want quake 3 instant gratification and have no respect for the actual fight,. How can they have any respect for the fight if they haven't taken the time to learn how to fight.
This is an interesting paragraph. The surprising assumption is that an unskilled pilot could take up a 190D, P-51 or some other fast aircraft, and ruin the day of people trying to dogfight by picking them when they're busy practicing their art. Do you remember what it's like to be new? You can't hit squat. The way you learn gunnery when you're new is by saddling up the 6 of a bandit, and then expending half your ammo to shoot him down as he makes evasive maneuvers. New, unskilled pilots are not the ones picking you. On the contrary, the majority are pilots who already know how to dogfight, but found that they like energy fighting more because they kill more and land more sorties.
As Richthofen said, find the enemy, shoot him down, everything else is bullpoop.
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I like murdrs idea up there about the modifier! good thinking outside the box!
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You are trying to solve something that you perceive as a problem, that you have not shown to be a problem.
He identified it as a "general complaint." A quick BBS search would validate this assessment as accurate based purely on the number of results.
You are correct that changing the score system has an effect on game play, but not that your choice of game play would be better.
Depends on the reader. See above comment. Plenty would call it "better," by default.
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He identified it as a "general complaint." A quick BBS search would validate this assessment as accurate based purely on the number of results.
Depends on the reader. See above comment. Plenty would call it "better," by default.
:aok
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Play the game the way that you get enjoyment from and let others do the same.
The only real arguments revolve around one group not playing as the other group does.
It has nothing to do with the game itself.
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This is an interesting paragraph. The surprising assumption is that an unskilled pilot could take up a 190D, P-51 or some other fast aircraft, and ruin the day of people trying to dogfight by picking them when they're busy practicing their art. Do you remember what it's like to be new? You can't hit squat. The way you learn gunnery when you're new is by saddling up the 6 of a bandit, and then expending half your ammo to shoot him down as he makes evasive maneuvers. New, unskilled pilots are not the ones picking you. On the contrary, the majority are pilots who already know how to dogfight, but found that they like energy fighting more because they kill more and land more sorties.
As Richthofen said, find the enemy, shoot him down, everything else is bullpoop.
This is the truth. I have only been playing Ah for a few months and the best news you could have if you are Bish or Knit would be that I have upped a fighter. I can fly real well because I understand the science of flight and I even understand the concept of using the strengths of your airplane against the opponent, BUT I have no clue whatsoever on how put it all together. I have to my credit one kill against another fighter- a Niki. The pilot never maneuvered and for all I know was on auto and AFK. I closed to 600 and killed him with one short burst. I do not think that I have ever hit anything else I have shot at- not that I get into a postion where I can shoot too often.
The only time I get a fighter home is to run like hell and hope someone faster isn't chasing me. And I go home with all my ammo. My solution for this is to fly bombers, jabos, and GVs which I seem to have some aptitude for. I am sure that for anyone as new as myself, they are in the same boat.
For the record, if I have one complaint, it is toward myself. I am so bad that I am embarrassed to go to a trainer. I figure I will frustrate them so much they will quit training anyone! Also, I figure that I should learn one aircraft well at first and can't decide on which one. The bad marksman in me wants to use something with 4 cannons and leanr to get REAL close, the bad ACM pilot in me wants to fly a LA7 so I can run away, the hopeful part of me wants to fly something that can TnB. But, to be honest I would love to be able to hold my own (don't "edit" and "fix" that phrase for me :lol) in a dogfight and one of these days will get some training and hopefully not prove myself to be a permanent target.
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The game is fine,the problem is looking back at you in the mirror. :aok
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Well, you could, if you really wanted a change, get the teacher's union to set up a new scoreing system.
Their result would be that no one wins, and no one loses. all scores would indicate everyone as being in first place.
Kind of like they do for your pre teen children now :rolleyes:
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Chaps... give the guy a break. This is not a mindless whining thread. This is not simply a complaint. This is not a mental breakdown.
He took the time to think about a potential solution to a problem that he sees people complaining about on a daily basis. At least consider it for what it is - a a possible fix for a problem which a sizable portion of the community has - and offer feedback beyond variations of "Youre the problem."
There is nothing wrong with new ideas - yet youd think so by reading many of these posts.
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Score is historic realistic modeled,......... :uhoh ;but brings selfishness and coward behaviour ,makes players avoid fights and afraid to die, i seen many times 10+ shy guys hiding in tower watching 2 punks vulching the base.
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This is an interesting paragraph. The surprising assumption is that an unskilled pilot could take up a 190D, P-51 or some other fast aircraft, and ruin the day of people trying to dogfight by picking them when they're busy practicing their art. Do you remember what it's like to be new? You can't hit squat. The way you learn gunnery when you're new is by saddling up the 6 of a bandit, and then expending half your ammo to shoot him down as he makes evasive maneuvers. New, unskilled pilots are not the ones picking you. On the contrary, the majority are pilots who already know how to dogfight, but found that they like energy fighting more because they kill more and land more sorties.
As Richthofen said, find the enemy, shoot him down, everything else is bullpoop.
You missing the entire point.. I said it's much "easier" to learn those kinds of tactics. I didn't say they were all noobs. It's not about the skill set so much but rather the mentality.
There is a difference between energy fighting , BnZing, and turn fighting. All three take time to perfect. The problem has nothing at all about the "type" of fighting it has to do with the mentality of probably 80 to 85% of the player base. Do I think they all suck and have no skills? No.
They have no respect at all for the actual fight and the real fun behind dog fighting. If you see two players in a 1 on 1 fight and you dive in and cherry pick the other guy with out asking.. Well then straight up it means you have no respect for the other player and non for the actual fight, if you think that kinda stuff is ok.
When you understand it's not about the style of play but rather the attitude and the respect for the fight.. Then you will maybe understand what wrong with it. Same goes for moron who thinks gang hoarding a single con or two is ok. It shows total lack of respect for any sort of sportsman ship.
Again it's about the attitude.. it has nothing to do with the flying style. This is not about a style of flying but rather the attitude of the typical player that thinks 5 guys on 1 con or cherry picking a con who is in a fight is ok.
What I said about things being easier to learn and bad habits, is the fact that it's much easier to stay in the protection of the hoard and be a gang tard or cherry pick other players for easy kills. Rather than learn a actual skill set and how to fight one on one.
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Also there is nothing wrong at all about BnZing. Hell I BnZ all the time, but in most cases it's because I'm out numbered. In a one on one I have no issues at all getting down and mixing it up. If it's 5 on 1 then I'll dam sure BnZ as long as I can.
The BnZ types that people get ticked off at, are the guys that never commit to a fight. At least those are the ones I think suck. There is nothing more annoying then some idiot who can't hit the broad side of a barn and tries to BNZ you for 10 mins straight. Of course these are typically the same guys that run to the deck like a school girl soon as they lose their advantage.
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Score is historic realistic modeled,......... :uhoh ;but brings selfishness and coward behaviour ,makes players avoid fights and afraid to die, i seen many times 10+ shy guys hiding in tower watching 2 punks vulching the base.
Coming from you, that's pretty funny.
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Scoring system stinks...you can fly/gv 3 missions each for the month and get a very low rating....I killed 400 fighters and bombers and I rank 800 and something......the guys that know how to work the system get the low ranks...the work horses get the high rank...not fair at all.
Its not about whos the best its about who knows how to abuse the system that get the low ranks!
400 kills but how many deaths? 402?? Just wonderin..
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Granted I have only been playing for just over a year so my point of view is more limited. But I have a hard time believing that a game that has been around for years and has predecessors going back a decade or more has suddenly changed.
There have always been "Cowardly BnZers", "HO monsters", and "Rabid Furballers".
Only the names have changed.
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Granted I have only been playing for just over a year so my point of view is more limited. But I have a hard time believing that a game that has been around for years and has predecessors going back a decade or more has suddenly changed.
There have always been "Cowardly BnZers", "HO monsters", and "Rabid Furballers".
Only the names have changed.
The game hasn't been advertised on TV for over a decade. My guess is it's just the massive infux of new players that cause this kind of issue. Sure the same problem was probably around b4, but with more players it compounds on it's self. I think the problem is the old school way of fighting is being taken over by the cheap eazy mode quake 3 types because new players do what the next guy does.
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Strafing you mean AH advertisement? If so, there's been a number of ad campaigns, and at least one of em gave a very noticeable influx of new players.
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You missing the entire point.. I said it's much "easier" to learn those kinds of tactics. I didn't say they were all noobs. It's not about the skill set so much but rather the mentality.
There is a difference between energy fighting , BnZing, and turn fighting. All three take time to perfect. The problem has nothing at all about the "type" of fighting it has to do with the mentality of probably 80 to 85% of the player base. Do I think they all suck and have no skills? No.
They have no respect at all for the actual fight and the real fun behind dog fighting. If you see two players in a 1 on 1 fight and you dive in and cherry pick the other guy with out asking.. Well then straight up it means you have no respect for the other player and non for the actual fight, if you think that kinda stuff is ok.
When you understand it's not about the style of play but rather the attitude and the respect for the fight.. Then you will maybe understand what wrong with it. Same goes for moron who thinks gang hoarding a single con or two is ok. It shows total lack of respect for any sort of sportsman ship.
Again it's about the attitude.. it has nothing to do with the flying style. This is not about a style of flying but rather the attitude of the typical player that thinks 5 guys on 1 con or cherry picking a con who is in a fight is ok.
What I said about things being easier to learn and bad habits, is the fact that it's much easier to stay in the protection of the hoard and be a gang tard or cherry pick other players for easy kills. Rather than learn a actual skill set and how to fight one on one.
Well then, forgive me for misinterpreting you! :o
The ironic thing is that we disagree but I don't do the things you complain about:
I don't cherry pick 1vs1's unless the friendly asks for help or I ask him if he wants help.
I don't dump all of my altitude to gang a guy who already has 2 or more friendlies on him, mostly because I think it's a waste of altitude. ;)
Sometimes I'm in a large group of friendlies but all too often they don't know how to drag a bandit properly and are willing to chase way too low; most of the time I'm coming in at 10-14k ft, far above any kind of horde, looking for bombers or other altitude fiends like myself.
I don't know how to help you with your complaint. Despite all of the whining and mashing of teeth, the player behavior is the same in AH as it was in HT's other sim 10 years ago. What's different is that the previous player base laughed if you complained about getting picked while flying below 10k ft. Instead we complained about flight models because they weren't as good as they are now, exhibit A: P-38L. My advice to you is to get above 12k ft and you will find 1vs1 fights because there are so few of us up there!