Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on April 11, 2008, 05:00:01 PM
-
I had a talk with a 474th FG P38 pilot today as part of a research project I'm doing. A couple things he said made a lot of sense in particular in response to the thread about "furballers mentality"
His name is Bud Holecheck and he was a 19 year old 38 pilot thrown into the middle of things in October 44 flying ground attack. Their alt he said was generally 8K for the job so the bad guys were above if they saw them.
Paraphrasing a bit from 4 pages of notes.
-If you wanted to be a fighter pilot you had to want to get into the fight. It didn't mean you weren't scared, but it meant you believed you could beat anyone you came up against. He said he dreamed of fighting 109s and 190s but never got the chance. He had the confidence in his ability that he could win.
I thought that spoke volumes about what we describe as 'furballers'. I think that means that 'furballers' are 'Fighter pilots', which is what this game is about I thought :)
The job he did in ground attack meant he had to fight the flak, which was like 'flying into a Christmas tree that was shooting at you". He lost 3 of 4 room mates in 6 months and numerous friends.
He said when they got to England, they had a lot of chances to 'rat race' with Spitfires and he felt like he could beat anyone but a great Spitfire pilot in his 38J. He then went on to describe corkscrewing up and watching the Spits follow, and because of the no torque of the 38, they Spits would stall out first and then he would kick rudder and nose down and 'they were dead'. He wanted the chance to use it against a 190 but never got the chance.
Oh, and the 38 was far and away the best plane he flew, and he'd flown 51s and Jugs too. They didn't compare :)
-
There you have it folks. Furballers win, and the 38 is the best plane. :D
Neat stuff Dan.
-
Oh, and the 38 was far and away the best plane he flew, and he'd flown 51s and Jugs too. They didn't compare :)
:)
donkey
-
i have heard of alot of combat pilots who said the 38 was way better than anything else,,, and i would like too believe them,, but then i heard alot of jug pilots say it was the best so i dont really Know! but in the game i like the jugg better ! i wish the 38 was as good as they represent it too be although it could just be me! :huh
as far as furballing there was alot of war going on and alot of different ways to kill they enemy but i imagine command would tell you not to tangle when you didnt have to ! just get the kill and move on down the road! :salute
-
He said when they got to England, they had a lot of chances to 'rat race' with Spitfires and he felt like he could beat anyone but a great Spitfire pilot in his 38J. He then went on to describe corkscrewing up and watching the Spits follow, and because of the no torque of the 38, they Spits would stall out first and then he would kick rudder and nose down and 'they were dead'. He wanted the chance to use it against a 190 but never got the chance.
Oh, and the 38 was far and away the best plane he flew, and he'd flown 51s and Jugs too. They didn't compare :)
It's amazing how well corkscrewing up really does work in here against Spitfires like it did in real life, it's a favorite tactic of mine roping co-alt, co-E Spitfires.
ack-ack
-
And there we have the problem with the game. Furballers don't care if they die, just grab another ride and up it into the horde/furball again. The pilots in real life know that that plane is there ride home. You lose your plane not only do you lose your ride but very possibly your life! I do tons of porking missions in the game and know how hard that is, i can't imagine in real life diving into the ack knowing 1 lucky hit can make me a POW or dead. Courage and fear went hand in hand with those guys and nothing but respect for em. :salute
-
AKAK could you post a picture or film with trails on so I can see what you mean against spits? You mean just avoiding the HO that they will take, and then doing a climbing turn up? Or like barrel rolling up? I'm a little confused.
-
I thought that spoke volumes about what we describe as 'furballers'. I think that means that 'furballers' are 'Fighter pilots', which is what this game is about I thought :)
Woo-oooh! :)
Oh, and the 38 was far and away the best plane he flew, and he'd flown 51s and Jugs too. They didn't compare :)
Just because he never flew a Ki-84! :D
Mensa, I think he's referring to a climbing spiral.
-
Mensa, I think he's referring to a climbing spiral.
CC, or continuous chandelle. All three terms are fine and mean the same.
-
And there we have the problem with the game. Furballers don't care if they die, just grab another ride and up it into the horde/furball again. The pilots in real life know that that plane is there ride home. You lose your plane not only do you lose your ride but very possibly your life! I do tons of porking missions in the game and know how hard that is, i can't imagine in real life diving into the ack knowing 1 lucky hit can make me a POW or dead. Courage and fear went hand in hand with those guys and nothing but respect for em. :salute
You missed the point.
His point, and we weren't talking about AH, we were talking about flying fighters, is that you have to have a confidence in yourself and your ability to go looking for a fight. That's what he dreamed about when he became a fighter pilot. He was willing to take the risk for real, and it's what he became a fighter pilot for.
To take it further, he didn't get to choose to go to 25K and hang above a fight. His job had him at 8K in a 38 with liquid cooled engines, fighting flak, hardly a job where life expectency was high.
No one in the MA dictates anyone elses mission parameters. No one tells you to go in at 8K and look for ground targets. He didn't have the choice. Given the choice he'd have been in a dogfight.
The beauty of the "GAME" is that we do have the chance to fight other people, and with no risk so we can in our cartoon airplanes live out what he dreamed of doing for real and never got the chance to.
The irony is some folks happily avoid fighting real folks to go kill buildings and run through the flak, when they have a choice.
-
Flying and fighting is what this game is, but from a business standpoint, remove the potential to achieve various objectives that instigate fights from the arenas, leaving ONLY the absolute furball aspect, how much business would HTC really have?
-
And there we have the problem with the game. Furballers don't care if they die, just grab another ride and up it into the horde/furball again. The pilots in real life know that that plane is there ride home. You lose your plane not only do you lose your ride but very possibly your life! I do tons of porking missions in the game and know how hard that is, i can't imagine in real life diving into the ack knowing 1 lucky hit can make me a POW or dead. Courage and fear went hand in hand with those guys and nothing but respect for em. :salute
You'll be PNG'd soon. Newsflash, we DON'T DIE in this game.
-
There you have it folks. Furballers win, and the 38 is the best plane. :D
Neat stuff Dan.
:aok :rock S.A.P.P. is right on a couple of things. :noid
-
Suddenly! A challenger appears!
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/JB73Mustaine/Aviation/doradesktop.jpg)
-
Good stuff, Dan. Here's another that, strangely enough, also directly translates to AH, despite the fact you can't really get hurt or killed even if you try. Emphasis is mine. ;)
It is fascinating to watch the reactions of the various pilots. They fall into two broad categories; those who are going out to shoot and those who secretly and desperately know they will be shot at, the hunters and the hunted. The majority of the pilots, once they have seen their name on the board, walk out to their Spitfires for a pre-flight check and for a word or two with their ground crews. They tie on their mae-wests, check their maps, study the weather forecast and have a last-minute chat with their leaders or wingmen. These are the hunters.
The hunted, that very small minority (although every squadron usually possessed at least one), turned to their escape kits and made quite sure that they were wearing the tunic with the silk maps sewn into a secret hiding-place; that they had at least one oilskin-covered packet of French francs, and two if possible; that they had a compass and a revolver and sometimes specially made clothes to assist their activities once they were shot down. When they went through these agonized preparations they reminded me of aged countrywomen meticulously checking their shopping- lists before catching the bus for the market town.
-Johnnie Johnson, Wing Leader (1956)
-
AKAK could you post a picture or film with trails on so I can see what you mean against spits? You mean just avoiding the HO that they will take, and then doing a climbing turn up? Or like barrel rolling up? I'm a little confused.
Like 2bighorn stated, a spiral climb. Spiral climb to the left if flying against a Spitfire MK XIV and to the right for the other Spitfires. By spiraling up in the opposite direction of their torque, it will bleed their energy much faster since they are having to componsate for the torque by using more control input.
The above is a perfect example of why it's very important to know not only the strengths and weaknesses of your plane but that of your foe's as well.
ack-ack
-
Suddenly! A challenger appears!
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/JB73Mustaine/Aviation/doradesktop.jpg)
And promptly runs away. :P
-
And there we have the problem with the game. Furballers don't care if they die, just grab another ride and up it into the horde/furball again. The pilots in real life know that that plane is there ride home. You lose your plane not only do you lose your ride but very possibly your life! I do tons of porking missions in the game and know how hard that is, i can't imagine in real life diving into the ack knowing 1 lucky hit can make me a POW or dead. Courage and fear went hand in hand with those guys and nothing but respect for em. :salute
i think the point that guppy may have been trying to make, is that fighter pilots are confident in themselves. so the AH cartoon furballers, are much more confident in themselves, i think might be the point...than are the cartoon bnz'ers, because they live their cartoon lives in here for the cartoon furball. your airplanes are free......c'mon down n fight. your next one is free.....and so is mine, or anyones. that'sa all........
<<S>>
-
Well, there you have it, the difference between us and the real pilots is that we don't really die. I am 100% in agreement on this point.
The reason why aggression is priceless and must be cultivated in the real fighter pilot is to counter balance the potentially mind-numbing fear that a realistic likelyhood of violent death brings about. Since we face no death, aggression and recklessness is cheap and easy and we must instead cultivate an ounce of the prudence a real pilot might feel about his death, if we are to keep a semi-realistic perspective on aircraft and tactics.
Last night I joined a mission of some sort, mossies into an airbase. I knew that between ack, wirbels, and fighters, it was certain death. Trepidation was strangely absent, I enjoyed my last meal with gusto. :D My pre-flight check was most slip-shod, I don't think I even adjusted all of my views. :D No churning stomach, n sweaty palms :D I shot down two planes and got torn to pieces trying to de-ack. No pain, no despair, no churning stomach, not even the sweaty palms or pounding heart some of you speak of from this game. But I never get that anyway. There wasn't even much dissatisfaction with my performance, since it went pretty much the way I knew it would go down. Death in AHII requires no courage to face and no cowardice to avoid.
As to the Johnnie Johnson quote...It strikes me these pilots he speaks of had to fight down great fear and
yet, STILL THEY FLEW. In any case, very few playing this game are fit to clean the windshield of even the most terrified pilot who ever flew a sortie in WWII.
-
Well, there you have it, the difference between us and the real pilots is that we don't really die. I am 100% in agreement on this point.
The reason why aggression is priceless and must be cultivated in the real fighter pilot is to counter balance the potentially mind-numbing fear that a realistic likelyhood of violent death brings about. Since we face no death, aggression and recklessness is cheap and easy and we must instead cultivate an ounce of the prudence a real pilot might feel about his death, if we are to keep a semi-realistic perspective on aircraft and tactics.
Last night I joined a mission of some sort, mossies into an airbase. I knew that between ack, wirbels, and fighters, it was certain death. Trepidation was strangely absent, I enjoyed my last meal with gusto. :D My pre-flight check was most slip-shod, I don't think I even adjusted all of my views. :D No churning stomach, n sweaty palms :D I shot down two planes and got torn to pieces trying to de-ack. No pain, no despair, no churning stomach, not even the sweaty palms or pounding heart some of you speak of from this game. But I never get that anyway. There wasn't even much dissatisfaction with my performance, since it went pretty much the way I knew it would go down. Death in AHII requires no courage to face and no cowardice to avoid.
As to the Johnnie Johnson quote...It strikes me these pilots he speaks of had to fight down great fear and
yet, STILL THEY FLEW. In any case, very few playing this game are fit to clean the windshield of even the most terrified pilot who ever flew a sortie in WWII.
:salute :aok
-
The problem, in this thread, with what that real pilot said, is that it has no mention of respecting others' 1:1s, no mention of not piling on to a single con when 2+ are already on it, etc.
In fact, if IronDog & co are reading that quote, they're probably thinking it supports their point of view, rather than that of 'furballers'.
-
The problem, in this thread, with what that real pilot said, is that it has no mention of respecting others' 1:1s, no mention of not piling on to a single con when 2+ are already on it, etc.
In fact, if IronDog & co are reading that quote, they're probably thinking it supports their point of view, rather than that of 'furballers'.
However your wingman wouldn't be shooting over your shoulder. ;)
-
...The above is a perfect example of why it's very important to know not only the strengths and weaknesses of your plane but that of your foe's as well...
ack-ack
Are you implying I don't know my plane and enemy's plane's strengths and weaknesses? ;)
-
Each one of us players are hypocrites. For every post admonishing some act I have had those same posters do exactly what they profess to dislike to me. When I first read your post I probably took it the wrong way from how you intended it; however, it remains hypocritical. I am not sure if you are advocating a certain play style or not, but does it really matter?
How to express myself intelligently will be a real challenge as I am not that intelligent. First, either it is a game or it is not. You (collective)advocate a certain "historical" context towards gameplay if I understand you correctly. On the other hand, you (singular) are an advocate of total "gaminess" as regards S.A.P.P., ie. landings.
I can understand the desire for a little silliness, I can understand the desire for history, but who is to decide what the right mix is? What I can not understand is the utter disregard for respect of others. I think I introduced a new topic into the conversation. Sorry, but to me respect is the crux of the problem with this and many other games. There are a lot of morally reprehensible posts between players and 'cartoon" acts that would have been grounds for criminal charges in real life.
If you talked to Chuck Yeager the 51 was the cats meow, Bob Johnson would say the Jug, each pilot who threw themselves in an aircraft is going to have a preference. I fail to see the point of emphasing this pilots regard for your chosen plane set as relevent to the way the post was made. That came out bad, I guess your post could have been written with less bias in it. I appreciate any bit of history I come across, but am suspect when I sense an underlying prurpose in the way the information is presented.
I am sure I am way off base, because I tend to read negativity in much too large a percentage of posts in these forums. Basically, the unwritten rules I see here are: if you have been playing longer than someone else, your entitled to be louder than they are and therefore must be right in your opinions; the higher your virtual score is the more abusive you are allowed to be; finally, since you are basically annonymous, you are free to act contrary to accepted social norms.
It is such a shame that something so potentially benificial is always ruined by those very users who can benefit from it. Maybe this post should have been it's own thread, but I am more and more disenfranchised with the direction that social interaction is going. So who can change this? Each one of us can, if willing, the problem is that many more are not willing. It really is a shame to continually read such negative replies to innocuos questions, opinions, and ideas.
I was surprised by this post as most I have read are very open minded and am probably just missing the point because the point was not written in a manner I could undestand. How much does it really matter at the end of the day how others play, what is more important I think is how they interact. Have fun. <S>
-
As I just posted in another thread. There is no right way to play the game. There is only the way in which you as a player have the most fun.
I posted this today because I happened to talk to a real 38 driver today and his comment struck a chord with me regarding game play.
He was saying that for real he dreamed of fighting 109s and 190s and didn't get the chance due to the mission he was given to fly. His goal as a fighter pilot at age 19 was to dogfight. He saw that a true fighter pilot had to have that piece of him that wanted to fight and believed he couldn't lose. He also talked about some of the guys he flew 38s with. Some were 'smooth" pilots, and some were "hot' pilots.
I was talking to my wife about it and she said something to the effect that if you were flying on an airliner you'd want a smooth pilot, but if you were in a dogfight, you'd want a 'hot' pilot. That's what he meant in the conversation. And i think in AH we have a lot of guys who fly 'smooth' but not nearly as many who are 'hot' pilots.
I sure don't claim some kind of high ground in the discussion due to time in the game or history or whatever. What I've come to believe, and it's just my opinion, is that because we aren't doing this for real, why not take the chance in a fight? We take no risk, so why not mix it up? My goal if there is such a thing in the game is to be a 'hot' cartoon pilot not a smooth one. And as those who have seen my landings can attest, I'm definately not smooth :)
Again, just my view on it. Not condemning anyone else for how they play.
-
I was talking to my wife about it and she said something to the effect that if you were flying on an airliner you'd want a smooth pilot, but if you were in a dogfight, you'd want a 'hot' pilot. That's what he meant in the conversation. And i think in AH we have a lot of guys who fly 'smooth' but not nearly as many who are 'hot' pilots.
I think it's not that simple. Dogfighting is a martial art, and you can successfuly use both of those styles of flying. I think a dogfighting pilot would want both hot and smooth. Smooth ensures maximal efficiency of ACM, hot ensures minimal hesitation. Like Bruce Lee said, you don't want to be tense, you want to be ready for whatever may come - smooth or hot.
Like Lev said, (paraphrasing:) "one pilot uses geometry, another uses aggression".
You think there's no wrong way to play the game so long as one is having fun.. I think there's pleny of ways to "have fun" while totaly borking dogfights' quality. Easiest example would be the archetype player you describe as "flying lightspeed into your dogfight to pick you just as the 1:1 fight was getting good".
-
<S>
-
good read guppy
-
I had a talk with a 474th FG P38 pilot today as part of a research project I'm doing. A couple things he said made a lot of sense in particular in response to the thread about "furballers mentality"
His name is Bud Holecheck and he was a 19 year old 38 pilot thrown into the middle of things in October 44 flying ground attack. Their alt he said was generally 8K for the job so the bad guys were above if they saw them.
Love the attitude - just basically says "I'm here to fight, and fight to win". And yeah, "I got the best ride there is" - total Fighter Pilot Mentality - type of guy who can find 1000 ways to win and 0 ways to lose.
How the hell do you beat such a man ? :salute
-
Are you implying I don't know my plane and enemy's plane's strengths and weaknesses? ;)
Well, your name is Mensa. :devil
ack-ack
-
Only one thing to add,
If you try this vertical maneuver you better make sure you have quite a bit more E than the spit16. I have been in a few such situations with 38's and have won. I was at d200-400, full flaps, when I fired. So the move isn't bullet proof ... lol...
But I'm not sure which way the 38 was turning when I got them so that might have been a factor.
Bottom line was the 38 misread my E state, I had just enough to get them. Pretty fun stuff, win or loose!
<S>kc
-
I love seeing 38s in a spiral climb with a spit on his 6 because you know exactly where his eyes are. Gup the 38 pilot you interviewed did us a great service back in the day. :salute He never fought the enemy 1:1 in his 38 though so Im reluctant to place too much thought on his impressions of 38 versus 109s or 190s either one let alone the jug or pony. I believe in AH the best airplane is the one the pilot can best identify with and enjoys flying. Could shawk score so well with the 38 as he does in the -u1c? or pacerr in the jug as well as the tempest or la7?
-
I love seeing 38s in a spiral climb with a spit on his 6 because you know exactly where his eyes are. Gup the 38 pilot you interviewed did us a great service back in the day. :salute He never fought the enemy 1:1 in his 38 though so Im reluctant to place too much thought on his impressions of 38 versus 109s or 190s either one let alone the jug or pony. I believe in AH the best airplane is the one the pilot can best identify with and enjoys flying. Could shawk score so well with the 38 as he does in the -u1c? or pacerr in the jug as well as the tempest or la7?
Not the point of my posting it at all though. My point is he believed he was good and confident in his bird and as a fighter pilot he went into it looking for a fight. He saw a lot of combat in a far higher risk occupation then air to air. He was just talking about the mentality of a fighter pilot. His dreaming of fighting 109s and 190s was a reflection on that, not that he was passing judgement on the airplane.
-
You might even surmise that he thought the fight is the thing.
Like so many who enjoy this game. :)