Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: waystin2 on April 15, 2008, 12:20:46 PM
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I was attacking a vbase with some squaddies last night in Stukas. Well we get over the Vbase, drop ord and begin exfiltrating out to friendly skies. I check my six and see a C205 closing from 5.5k out. I figure I can't outrun him, so I turn the nose toward him, and figure I will get in whatever licks I can before paying the piper. First high speed pass he damages me, but jinking saved me from a full blown HO. I reverse into him and actually get some snapshots into him with the teeny tiny guns on my Stuka. He decides he is gonna turn with me trying to get a tail shot so I figure what the heck, let's do this! I gain on him in the turnfest, and ping him a few more times. This is where the story gets odd, he runs to the Vbases ack/Wirbels with a Stuka chasing him! A STUKA! Anyway, everytime I tried to head back to my airfield, he would come flying out of the ack, throttle to the floor, trying to nail me. This dance happened three times in a row, exactly the same each time, before he got me. Would love to see some other oddball/overmatched dogfighting stories here...
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anytime I am in anything and go up against anyone in a A-20 Im like....WTF :eek:
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Well somebody once tried to HO me in a LA7... I was in a B25H to bad so sad. I think he took the 75 right through the spinner.
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The A-20 is a surprisingly good fighter.
I've gotten kills on a C-hog, 4-hog, 262 (mutual death unfortunately), Spit 16, and a sampler platter of ENY 5 planes this tour. Still have a 2 to 1 K/D too, even after last night's thrashing.
With respect to the Stuka, I fought Trotter, a squaddie, in the AvA one night with him in a Stuka and me in an early hurri or spit. That plane can be quite lethal if flown really well and if you can maintain a 1v1. I'm not surprised you gave that 205 a spanking.
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The A-20 is a surprisingly good fighter.
I've gotten kills on a C-hog, 4-hog, 262 (mutual death unfortunately), Spit 16, and a sampler platter of ENY 5 planes this tour. Still have a 2 to 1 K/D too, even after last night's thrashing.
With respect to the Stuka, I fought Trotter, a squaddie, in the AvA one night with him in a Stuka and me in an early hurri or spit. That plane can be quite lethal if flown really well and if you can maintain a 1v1. I'm not surprised you gave that 205 a spanking. You Pigs on the Wing guys seem like pretty good sticks.
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I was in a Stuka one night hunting GV's near an enemy VB. I didn't get my ord off before a P-38 engaged me. I let the 1000K center bomb go and started turn-fighting the guy. As I did I switched ord and let the 250K's go. I turned with this guy for several minutes, then a 110 joined him. Now I'm dancing in my Stuka with a P-38 and a 110, both of which I managed to ping. This went on for several more minutes.
Finally, two friendly's showed up and cleared these two. I sort of wish they hadn't. It was a fun fight and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten at least one, if not both of these guys. Neither one of them ever got even a ping on me and when I finally flew away, I found I still had one 250K egg strapped to one wing.
That was one of those sweaty palm, heart racing fights you only rarely find.
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We do some interesting things in the 80th & S.A.P.P. from time to time.
I went up in a stuka, flew 2 sectors dropped a bomb then got in a dogfight with a mossie that had alt. I killed the mossie just as a spit 5 got there.... killed him then dove on a hog and killed him. The whole time I just knew I was going to die but never stopped turning. Made it back with 3 scalps.
On another adventure we flew in goons across the bay to an enemy base and dropped vehicle supplies on the enemy town even though our GVs had no spawn there. I got 2 kills that time from folks racing to kill the goon before a friendly gets him. I died anyway that time.
Recently S.A.P.P. pulled in some outsiders for an undercover mission. Folks joining the mission were half way across the water to the enemy base before the ones that were tasked with killing the town realized they were carrying torps. We told them they are great town killers. The goons in the mission were carrying GV supplies. For some reason some thought we would not succeed. We succeeded in having a great laugh but did not capture the base.... who'd a thunk. :aok
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anytime I am in anything and go up against anyone in a A-20 Im like....WTF :eek:
I was in an A-20 humting GVs defending a V/base and got jumped by a P-39L who came screaming down with alot of E... I turned and got the overshoot, He turned and dumped his E advantage, I reversed and came up on his 6 and "BLAMMO" with the nose .50 cals... the 38 exploded so fast that I don't think he knew what hit him!
<S>
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I was in a D3A over TT one day...I got caught up in a fight with a Nik and Lgay7...killed the Nik in a turn w/peashooters and LA7 ran like a mofo
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I was in a D3A over TT one day...I got caught up in a fight with a Nik and Lgay7...killed the Nik in a turn w/peashooters and LA7 ran like a mofo
I got in about a 5-10 minute turn fight one night in a Spit XVI against a D3A. That guy pinged the crap out of me. At one point he was saddled up and it sounded like hail hitting my Spit. I did finally prevail against him but he put up a good fight.
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Would love to see some other oddball/overmatched dogfighting stories here...
I remember getting on and pinging a 190 who tried to flat turn with me, then extend, then re-attack, in a SBD. Did this little dance 3 times before a friendly La7 came along and slew the 190.
This is a good example of how an antique is often better than a more "uber" plane at the one technique that most use in the MA anyway, pulling back the stick as far back as possible and riding the stall. Those who are actually attempting to dogfight. Put a few 20MMs on the Val and it would be flown more than the P-51, La7, Spit, and N1K combined, I think. :D
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I was attacking a vbase with some squaddies last night in Stukas. Well we get over the Vbase, drop ord and begin exfiltrating out to friendly skies. I check my six and see a C205 closing from 5.5k out. I figure I can't outrun him, so I turn the nose toward him, and figure I will get in whatever licks I can before paying the piper. First high speed pass he damages me, but jinking saved me from a full blown HO. I reverse into him and actually get some snapshots into him with the teeny tiny guns on my Stuka. He decides he is gonna turn with me trying to get a tail shot so I figure what the heck, let's do this! I gain on him in the turnfest, and ping him a few more times. This is where the story gets odd, he runs to the Vbases ack/Wirbels with a Stuka chasing him! A STUKA! Anyway, everytime I tried to head back to my airfield, he would come flying out of the ack, throttle to the floor, trying to nail me. This dance happened three times in a row, exactly the same each time, before he got me. Would love to see some other oddball/overmatched dogfighting stories here...
mossie vs spit....did the same thing using town ack........but then again, i did the same ting in a f6f vs a zeke last night......as hard as i tried i couldn't get his 6..so i extended to the ack, he'd turn off, i'd go after him again...i didn't know any other way to handle it though......even without the aCK, i'd have had to keep extending out i think.
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Years ago I tagged a 262 in a Spit I. I took off part of his wing and one engine. He turned to head back to his base, I followed to make sure he didn't try to ditch. He just dropped out of view when I got the kill message. I had to watch the film to see he crashed on approach.
Other than fighting a pair of ponies in a goon, that kill was the most memorable.
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I've done B-25C (solid nose) vs spits. I winged up with a squaddie and dog-fought a couple of these. Was.... "interesting"...
Also flew a Boston III with 4x .303s as a fighter vs a c202 and ended up winning (barely). I've done B-26 vs B-24, B-25H vs Lancaster, B-17G vs IL2, B-17G vs Ju88 (both b17s single planes vs single planes), and some other funky matchups.
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...This is where the story gets odd, he runs to the Vbases ack/Wirbels with a Stuka chasing him! A STUKA! Anyway, everytime I tried to head back to my airfield, he would come flying out of the ack, throttle to the floor, trying to nail me.
I'm not sure why you find this "odd". In fact, I would expect nothing less from 95% of players. So scared to die they run to ack. Bet even if you had been in a B5N on his 6 he'd still run.
This dance happened three times in a row, exactly the same each time, before he got me.
We need a name. You should've called out his dweebery on Ch200 and let everyone know.
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I'm not sure why you find this "odd". In fact, I would expect nothing less from 95% of players. So scared to die they run to ack. Bet even if you had been in a B5N on his 6 he'd still run.
We need a name. You should've called out his dweebery on Ch200 and let everyone know.
I find it odd by my own MA play style. If the situation was reversed, I would have been licking my chops looking at that big & slow Stuka. As far as a name...think of the company whose name starts with a V, that produces Vapor rub(with a slightly different spelling).
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I find it odd by my own MA play style. If the situation was reversed, I would have been licking my chops looking at that big & slow Stuka. As far as a name...think of the company whose name starts with a V, that produces Vapor rub(with a slightly different spelling).
Admittedly it is a bit odd, but I guess I've gotten used to it.
No surprise on Vapor Rub scorepotato. I figure since he was in a 205 he was working on his fighter score. Couldn't have that ruined by a fun fight with a Stuka.
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Let’s visualize an extension with the bandit attempting to catch us. I’ve made some rough rules of thumb for you to consider based on turning performance. I’ll assume that we can complete the 180 degree turn around in 10-15 seconds. During that time, the bandit will be closing on us. This figure shows the situation:
Next, I’ll choose two types of bandits…a WW2 type at 300mph and a modern jet at 600KIAS. These speeds allow me to compute how far the bandits travel in the time that it takes us to turn around (I’ll average the distance for the 10-15 second period). By rounding the numbers off, I come up with a distance of 1nm (6000’) for the WW2 fighter and about 2nm (12000’) for the jet fighter. I then add my desired distance at roll out and end up with approximate values of 2nm for a WW2 situation and 4nm for a jet situation. These are just rough values, but they do give you a feel for the time/distance relationship of the turn back maneuver.
How do you know when you are at these ranges? Many sims offer target labels that gives you bandit range. I do not look upon these as a cheat since the depth perception and ability to depict fine graphical detail is lacking in our sims. If the video picture allowed us to recognize and measure range as easily as can be done in real life, then I would not favor labels…but that is not the case.
The reason why I went through this math drill was to show you that the distances are not as close as some might imagine. In order to effectively return to the fight, you must get substantial separation prior to initiating the turn back. One cautionary note – these are real world approximates. They are based on specific turn rates. Your sim flight model may or may not use real world turn rates…we have all seen bandits do some amazing turns and reversals in our sims. In those cases where a sim’s flight model is suspect, only trial and error will produce an answer to the question of "how far is far enough".
One last caution. If you are going to err in this estimation of when to turn back, err on the conservative side. Extending too far is much better than not far enough. What may happen if you do not go out far enough? Quite simply, the bandit has the opportunity to rejoin on you in your turn.
From "Boom and Zoom Tactics", chapter two, by Andy Bush the whole article can be found here. http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html) I understand the author knows something about ACM...Consider the ack and WWs a time-saver in this situation, rather than having to extend the whole approximately 4K.
Maybe the noob deserved to get shot down for not knowing that the one place a Stuka could beat his 205 was a flat turning fight...maybe Waystin2 would be much happier if the guy had skillfully used the vertical and killed him with a good snap-shot, instead of hit and run. Maybe.
Then again, maybe all the noob did was find a way, (a crude and untutored way, to be sure), to use the relative strengths of his airplane, and to demonstrate just why the Stuka was considered so vulnerable.
<S> No disrespect intended towards anybody.
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Then again, maybe all the noob did was find a way, (a crude and untutored way, to be sure), to use the relative strengths of his airplane, and to demonstrate just why the Stuka was considered so vulnerable.
Honestly, if anyone ran from a Ju87 in this game while in a fighter they are timid or lack any knowledge of ACM, plain and simple.
The C.205 should have blown away the Ju87 in one pass, all that was needed was go into a High Yo-Yo while the Ju87 did a breaking flat turn and the C.205 would have had a beautiful angle as he down inside the Stuka's turn.
ack-ack
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I'm not sure why you find this "odd". In fact, I would expect nothing less from 95% of players. So scared to die they run to ack. Bet even if you had been in a B5N on his 6 he'd still run.
Speaking of B5N's . . .
A long while back on the Baltic Map I spied a low con heading toward a friendly CV that was trying to navigate north of A45 (I think). There was a big furball to the south of the CV, and this con was coming from the east, on the deck, trying to avoid it so as to get a shot on the carrier. I had upped from a land base in a Hurri IIC.
As I dove on it, I saw it was a B5N. He dropped his torp so he could turn out of my way. Long story short, even in a Hurri IIC, I could not for the life of me get a clean shot on this guy, and he eventually ended up on my 6. After laughing my rear end off for being so thoroughly owned by a guy who couldn't kill me despite the ownage, I finally said on 200 "ok, you got me. I am RTB." Instead of flying off triumphantly -- he bailed.
Thinking about it now, I should have augured and given him the kill.
I swore I would never forget it . . . and yet now I can't remember who the pilot was. :(
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If anyone would like to see a D3A (Zip5389) Own an Me-163 (UberSlet) in the DA, i taped it!!
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My dog fighting skills are on the low side of average, but I did manage to wound and run off an F6F in my B-25-H once without HO shots, lots of fun. My squaddie and I turn fought our TBM's with an LA7 once as well, he finally shot down my squaddie after 20 minutes or so, I augered after a stall on the deck after only five...
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I find it odd by my own MA play style. If the situation was reversed, I would have been licking my chops looking at that big & slow Stuka. As far as a name...think of the company whose name starts with a V, that produces Vapor rub(with a slightly different spelling).
isn't he a sore boy? i think(not sure though) i used to kill him in EW..if it's who i think it is........
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Maybe the noob deserved to get shot down for not knowing that the one place a Stuka could beat his 205 was a flat turning fight...maybe Waystin2 would be much happier if the guy had skillfully used the vertical and killed him with a good snap-shot, instead of hit and run. Maybe.
Then again, maybe all the noob did was find a way, (a crude and untutored way, to be sure), to use the relative strengths of his airplane, and to demonstrate just why the Stuka was considered so vulnerable.
<S> No disrespect intended towards anybody.
i think if he had done that, then waystain would've had a much more fun fight.....i don't think i've ever seen anyone run from a stuka......yet....
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The Stuka is surprisingly a great turn fighter! Slow speed, big wings, and loads of BB's to PO the guy fighting you :D . I actually have to chase down and kill a Spit 16 in a stuka once :lol .
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I fought a P51b in midwar for almost 5 min one day in a Stuka. He kept running out turning diveing in, i'd do a hard turn he'd zoom back up. I got him low to the deck and was pretty much doing the same thing till he finally gets frustrated and comes in and tries to HO me. :O I unloaded with the stuka's awesome firepower :lol pulled up hard and bounced off his cockpit, killing him instantly! :rofl Of course he pm's me and calls me a HO tard. :huh :lol
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"maybe Waystin2 would be much happier if the guy had skillfully used the vertical and killed him with a good snap-shot, instead of hit and run. Maybe."
"<S> No disrespect intended towards anybody.'
Actually BNZ, not happy or unhappy on this one. More or less want to spark story telling on odd matchups, how they played out, planes involved, etc. I am not much into the channel 200 & BBS 'call the dweebery out" mentality that some folks have. I say live and let die(preferably someone else). Oh, and no insult taken.
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"maybe Waystin2 would be much happier if the guy had skillfully used the vertical and killed him with a good snap-shot, instead of hit and run. Maybe."
"<S> No disrespect intended towards anybody.'
Actually BNZ, not happy or unhappy on this one. More or less want to spark story telling on odd matchups, how they played out, planes involved, etc. I am not much into the channel 200 & BBS 'call the dweebery out" mentality that some folks have. I say live and let die(preferably someone else). Oh, and no insult taken.
i didn't interpret his statement as meaning bnz...i thought he meant a turnfight, but using more verticle manuevers, as opposed to horizontal maneuvers.
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Yup that is what he meant.... have you gone verical in a stuka..... :aok
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Yup that is what he meant.... have you gone verical in a stuka..... :aok
Yes. But that was down.