Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: REVRAND on April 16, 2008, 12:30:48 AM
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2cm Flakvierling auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV, Wirbelwind
Although a closed turret was preferred for the new Flakpanzer, it was not possible due to the creation of smoke when firing. The FlaKPz IV "Wirbelwind" (Whirlwind) was an anti-aircraft tank mounted four 2cm cannons in an octagonal, open-top turret, which provided an impressive amount of firepower. The turret could be rotated at 60o/s. however, by late in the war 2cm shells weren't powerful enough to bring down Allied aircraft. On the other hand, it was a devastating weapon against ground troops. With production starting in mid 1944, in total 105 were produced till the end of the war.
Can anyone explain with only >105 produced< and the lack of power to shoot down a Goon, is this GV like a 110 with tracks........?
Overmodeled maybe .....?
Hell at least perk it .........I mean only three hundred ME262'z made into combat and the perks are usually in the triple digits........
The REV :devil
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I was in a 262 in a high speed dive around 3k alt, doin about 500mph, I looked off my 9 OC and saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
It lights me up first ping (tracers on, so I know it) and kills my engine, my engine oil, my aileron, and my wingtip, in the first ping.
I might have made it home intact save for a 190d that dove 15k to the deck to take a single attack run at me (the entire fight was 5k or less).
I definitely feel the WW is too powerful. Either it needs a perk or needs nerfing.
Think about it, 500+MPH, at 1.5k, nose down, hauling major arse, in a 262 no less, and his first tracers find their mark (and OH he sprayed after me, trying to finish me off)
Edit: P.S. I like it as a vehicle, it's a neat thing to ride in, but it's very unbalancing IMO.
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At 105 built it had more than twice the production of the Ostwind.
Keep in mind though that the Germans had lots of quad 20mm AA units, most weren't built on Panzer IV chasis though.
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I get killed by bombs all too often, please perk them also.
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I get HO'd and collided with so perk gas and bullets too please. Sorry for sarcasm, just have unresolved issues. Now they're resolved, thanks.
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I was in a 262 in a high speed dive around 3k alt, doin about 500mph, I looked off my 9 OC and saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
It lights me up first ping (tracers on, so I know it) and kills my engine, my engine oil, my aileron, and my wingtip, in the first ping.
I might have made it home intact save for a 190d that dove 15k to the deck to take a single attack run at me (the entire fight was 5k or less).
I definitely feel the WW is too powerful. Either it needs a perk or needs nerfing.
Think about it, 500+MPH, at 1.5k, nose down, hauling major arse, in a 262 no less, and his first tracers find their mark (and OH he sprayed after me, trying to finish me off)
Edit: P.S. I like it as a vehicle, it's a neat thing to ride in, but it's very unbalancing IMO.
Sounds like an awesome shot to me. I like to give skill credit where it is due.
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I was in a 262 in a high speed dive around 3k alt, doin about 500mph, I looked off my 9 OC and saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
It lights me up first ping (tracers on, so I know it) and kills my engine, my engine oil, my aileron, and my wingtip, in the first ping.
I might have made it home intact save for a 190d that dove 15k to the deck to take a single attack run at me (the entire fight was 5k or less).
I definitely feel the WW is too powerful. Either it needs a perk or needs nerfing.
Think about it, 500+MPH, at 1.5k, nose down, hauling major arse, in a 262 no less, and his first tracers find their mark (and OH he sprayed after me, trying to finish me off)
Edit: P.S. I like it as a vehicle, it's a neat thing to ride in, but it's very unbalancing IMO.
Well I have done the same with manned acks & I think Osti's on 262's you should see the cheat screams I see on 200 or pm'd to me. So do we perk the soft gun
& Osti because some one knows how to use them? I say no to perking.
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Hell at least perk it .........I mean only three hundred ME262'z made into combat and the perks are usually in the triple digits........
Numbers produced dont mean anything. Go take a look at the Ostwind, Ta152, N1K2, three gun LA7 numbers for a start.
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saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
No matter how you try and say it krusty,
1.5K is NOT "WAY the hell out there".
Numbers produced dont mean anything. Go take a look at the Ostwind, Ta152, N1K2, three gun LA7 numbers for a start.
You beat me to it Larry! :aok
<S>
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"however, by late in the war 2cm shells weren't powerful enough to bring down Allied aircraft."
Yeah, sure. So mounting four of those in FW190 was a waste of time and resources too? You might want to check how much Clostermann liked those flakvierlings. In his book he describes a strafing mission where 6 Tempests of his flight dove in and only two came back up and the whole event took only a few seconds. He claims they were shot down by flakvierlings but I guess they just hit the ground for other reasons...
The 20mm of Wirbelwind is so slow that if you know where it is there is no reason why you could not dodge it. Wirbelwind seems to be most powerful when the angles are not too big so that taking proper lead is not too tough. From more than 1.5K and 90deg angles I fear 37mm Osties more. Of course if you try to strafe a Wirbelwind and it sees you in time your game is usually over in a split second, but I haven't given Wirbys any special attention on attack missions. They seem to obey the bomb just as well as the Ostie.
M16 is not as efficient but it is easier to get a proper lead with it due to better ballistics, although I understand that Wirby eats some interest from M16 in field defence duties.
-C+
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Sounds like someone's whine meter is going off because he can't strafe down a gv properly. Heck using his logic they should perk the 45 the pilot in a parachute has! I killed a spit with it one day. :O Not sure how i got credit for it but i hit him 1 time next thing i know i get a message saying i shot down so and so. :rofl That will teach you to shoot at chutes. :D
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I was in a 262 in a high speed dive around 3k alt, doin about 500mph, I looked off my 9 OC and saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
Either your GPS was faulty or you need to work on your math :aok
very unbalancing
Says the guy in 262 :rofl
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I was in a 262 in a high speed dive around 3k alt, doin about 500mph, I looked off my 9 OC and saw a WW icon 1.5k out on a shoreline WAY the hell out there.
Either your GPS was faulty or you need to work on your math :aok
You need to work on your math, bighorn. Icon distance is measured in yards, altitude in feet. No problem to be at 3k alt and having enemy icon at 1.5k ;)
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You need to work on your math, bighorn. Icon distance is measured in yards, altitude in feet. No problem to be at 3k alt and having enemy icon at 1.5k ;)
Sorry Lushe, referred to previous post by soupcan "1.5K is NOT "WAY the hell out there".". (that's typical Krusty's math :D)
As far as math goes, he could be sector away. Distance and alt aren't related in this case.
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Funny, but the only time I've been killed by a wirblewind is if I went straight at it while it's looking at me. They are WAY to easy to turret. Couple of rounds on top of the thing and it's OOC.
The Wirblewind needs to be perked about as bad as the C-47 does.
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Sorry Lushe, referred to previous post by soupcan "1.5K is NOT "WAY the hell out there".". (that's typical Krusty's math :D)
As far as math goes, he could be sector away. Distance and alt aren't related in this case.
I wouldn't have misunderstood you if you had highilghter "way hell out" instead of "1.5k" and "3k".
Always try to keep it simple and clear - there are lot's of slow thinkers like me out there :D
And back on topic:
No need for perk, but way lower ENY. And maybe correct the turret traverse speed to real - life value (I won't start about correct ROF for now ;))
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by late in the war 2cm shells weren't powerful enough to bring down Allied aircraft
So exactly what was different between late war allied aircraft and early war? At least the difference that made wirbels ineffective?
I pray or a 1.5k shot at a 262. I pinged one once at 2k.
Titanic Tues. on a small crummy map like the uterus is just a bad time to take out heavily perked airplanes like the 262. Its an even worse time to fly one as if GVs arent there. We had a major GV battle before I signed off and the shots presented my wirbel were so easy to make I could have made them with a sling shot. By the same token I made about 30 perks just shooting the 20mm on PT boats once our CV went down.
A buddy flew Jugs in the war up till the end and these German flak GVs scared the bejeezus out of him and thats why he, and I, loved the Jug so much. Cause it would bring him home even after being shot to pieces.
Ive had auto puffy ack cripple a Jug diving into it at 500 mph. Why should the rest of us lose a GV we love cause you lost 200 perks due to poor flying of a 262. Why in heck did you even have it in range of a GV ack?
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Yeah why would you highlight "3k, 1.5k, & shoreline" if you were referring to "1.5K is NOT "WAY the hell out there"? :huh
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Yeah why would you highlight "3k, 1.5k, & shoreline" if you were referring to "1.5K is NOT "WAY the hell out there"? :huh
For six reasons.
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The WW was well beyond normal effective range for any normal plane moving 300mph, let alone a me262 in a power-on dive doing over 500mph. I was passing beneath 3k alt (3000 feet) and the range only just popped into view on the WW (1.5k) at 90 degrees off my 9 oclock. It happened to be parked on a shoreline, away from the airfield it came from, as it was attempting to shoot up incoming planes or something.
Regardless, why the hell are you jumping down MY throat?
That situation is well beyond any tracking, and the WW didn't even fire bracketing shots. I got hit on the first salvo, and he kept spraying after that. until I flew out of range (I was already out of it to begin with, but there you have it)
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This is going to back and fourth...all the time. Guys that don't want it perked are going to defend it with the "Too easy to kill the turret" and "use teamwork" excuses, while guys want it perked will use the "kills planes in 3 pings", "too powerful to be non-perked", and "I get hit once from 2K out"
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If I see a WW near my airspace I will immediatly kill it.
They can be a threat, but not much of one if you keep your eyes open. :O
Perk em?
Naaaaaah no need.
I,ve killed 13 WWs to 3 deaths,air to ground, I don,t see why this thing is getting the "meatgrinder" label.
Its just another GV. Kill it.
I do. I don,t care if I'm in attack mode or fighter mode, If I see one I'll try to eliminate the threat.
Not that tuff.
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Sounds like someone's whine meter is going off because he can't strafe down a gv properly. Heck using his logic they should perk the 45 the pilot in a parachute has! I killed a spit with it one day. :O Not sure how i got credit for it but i hit him 1 time next thing i know i get a message saying i shot down so and so. :rofl That will teach you to shoot at chutes. :D
I got 6 kills in a man in one mission one night. Definately needs to be perked.
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my p38 took three seperate bursts from multiple WW's. First one popped an aierlon, second burst a rudder, elevator and oil, third time one radiator and the other engine oil along with a couple guns. Still landed it. :salute
They were hitting me from 1.5-2k out with me doing 200-300mph and manuevering.
Only time they've really annoyed me so far is rolling up to camp a runway takeoff. Thats annoying.
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If I see a WW near my airspace I will immediatly kill it.
They can be a threat, but not much of one if you keep your eyes open. :O
Perk em?
Naaaaaah no need.
I,ve killed 13 WWs to 3 deaths,air to ground, I don,t see why this thing is getting the "meatgrinder" label.
Its just another GV. Kill it.
I do. I don,t care if I'm in attack mode or fighter mode, If I see one I'll try to eliminate the threat.
Not that tuff.
Insert picture here of hammer hitting nail on the head. :aok
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The Wirbel would be inefective against most Allied Aircraft most of the time because most of them had better sense than to fly over 20 WWs below 6,000. And if they were below 6,000, they were dropping big chunks of high explosives on things like GVs. The WW rounds literally will not hit anything at 6,000 feet. (2K).
I've just been looking at my kill stats, and I've been killed by practically every plane and vehicle this tour EXCEPT the WW. Including one by Osti. That's because if they want to hug their flaks (undoubtedly because of the huge numbers and energy advantages the attackers have), I LET them.
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I would sure like it if the quad 20mm on my fighters could reach out about 4000 yards like the wirble quad 20s do. Oh well........its a game.
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They do, you have to remeber, your in a plane, which is moveing the same way as the shells...WW's are sitting on the ground which makes them appear to reach out a lot more. It's also very, very hard to hit someone at 4,000 yards in a plane unless they are very, very still.
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All the numbers in his scenario do not make the hit(s) that he received impossible ... highly improbable ? maybe, but it happened.
What difference does it make how fast you are going ? It might reduce the chances of getting hit, but in no way totally eliminates your chances of getting hit.
If the WW throws out a 'lead' wall of 20mms with the correct offset ... you will get hit ... even if you were mach 3 ... it doesn't matter ... the speed at which you are traveling does not bend the laws of physics of the path the 20mm are on for an intercept.
This was more of a case of the plane flying into the bullet and not the bullet being delivered/aimed at the plane.
The WW can throw out alot of 20mm shells and it anyone gets hit, especially at a high speed, the person who shot, used some good 'ole Kentucky Windage ... and there are some people in this game that can do it with ease ... some of us are just lucky.
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The WW was well beyond normal effective range for any normal plane moving 300mph, let alone a me262 in a power-on dive doing over 500mph. I was passing beneath 3k alt (3000 feet) and the range only just popped into view on the WW (1.5k) at 90 degrees off my 9 oclock. It happened to be parked on a shoreline, away from the airfield it came from, as it was attempting to shoot up incoming planes or something.
Why were you in a 262 anyway? Recently you said it was porked - the ballistics on the cannons are all wrong? Using the cast iron proof that you are unable to hit anything in it after setting up perfect shots and missing?
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If the WW is distracted they're very easy to kill. I got 4 of them in one run, going low on the deck level with them, Just shoot their turrets so they smoke and finish them off. I was in a 38J.
I think it's good that there is a GV in the game that takes some tactics to kill, instead of a lone man doing it. The ostie was threatening, but the rounds were dodge able.
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reach out about 4000 yards like the wirble quad 20s do.
They don't. Not even half that range.
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You can turret a WW with just about any normally flown fighter out there and live to tell the tail.
Sure you may not kill it with 4 50s but its beyond easy to wound it.
Strip
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damage etc etc etc aside, its still pretty unbalencing..
if you were to count all gvs on the ground in the arena at any given moment.. i wouldn't be surprised at all if half or more weren't WWs.
and the whole "you can turret one easy with 4 50s and live:
bull &^%! maybe if its shooting at someone else while you do it..
you go 1 on 1 with a wirble, without bombs or rockets.. you may get him, but there is a slim chance your going to survive it, much less without enough damage to send you packing.
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a plane flying straight and level at 1.5K makes a nice easy target :) a 262 would need just alittle more leed on it.
but 1.5K is the limit for me, tracers go out alittle after that and a 2K shot isnt imposable
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I do it all the time.
Come in from the vertical and do a little spiral to get thier turret out of position.
Easy as pie!
Strip
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you go 1 on 1 with a wirble, without bombs or rockets.. you may get him, but there is a slim chance your going to survive it, much less without enough damage to send you packing.
Dude, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you attack an anti aircraft gun with only some MGs, and you're surprised or in disbelief concerning the outcome of this confrontation, the problem isn't the Wirbelwind. This is comparable to complaining that the 110G2 should be limited, since it's really hard to HO one and not get turned into idiot puree'.
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Dude, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you attack an anti aircraft gun with only some MGs, and you're surprised or in disbelief concerning the outcome of this confrontation, the problem isn't the Wirbelwind. This is comparable to complaining that the 110G2 should be limited, since it's really hard to HO one and not get turned into idiot puree'.
You can turret a WW with just about any normally flown fighter out there and live to tell the tail.
what i was going off of in refrence to trying to take one out with guns..
if im not heavy, or some friendlies helping out, im not going near one of those bastards..
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See thats why i dont use the WW's. Cause i know theres gonna be somebody on 200 whining on how good fo a shot i am. :lol
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What blows my mind is how much more effective the x4 .30's on the p39D are vs. its 20mm or even 37mm cannon.
Maby its something with accuracy and total amount of lead poured on the target on any one given pass.
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funny story with WW
i was in Hurr IID strafing a panzer and i run out of 40mm after 3 kills
i see a WW and proceed to turret him with my .303s lol
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Numbers produced dont mean anything. Go take a look at the Ostwind, Ta152, N1K2, three gun LA7 numbers for a start.
You always forget the C.205. ~250 built. :P
Numbers as I recall them:
N1K2-J: 416
3 gun La-7: ~300
C.205: ~250
Wirbelwind: 105
Ta152: 47
Ostwind: ~40
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You always forget the C.205. ~250 built. :P
Numbers as I recall them:
N1K2-J: 416
3 gun La-7: ~300
C.205: ~250
Wirbelwind: 105
Ta152: 47
Ostwind: ~40
PERK EM ALLLz!!!! :rock
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Can we perk posts to the BBS? :D
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How about we just perk perks. If you want to earn perk points then you have to pay perks. :t
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Bah WW is for the peeps who cant hit nothing in an Osti. Osti way more better 1 hit 1 kill.
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You're 1.5k out - which is just in the WW range. Thats just great shooting on his part. Also, 500mph doesn't mean much...its more the angle of approach - If you were flying straight into him you were barely moving across his sight. And 262's are not exactly the sturdiest birds out there. I'd rather be in a P47 going 500mph past a Wirble than in a 262. Sucks to lose the plane, so I can certainly understand why you are venting. <S>
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Bah WW is for the peeps who cant hit nothing in an Osti. Osti way more better 1 hit 1 kill.
I can't hit squat with either :(
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There is not anything better than a WW with tracers off... :devil They come striaght in for you. I can just imagine what their thinking as they wake up in the tower.. :devil
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2cm Flakvierling auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV, Wirbelwind
Although a closed turret was preferred for the new Flakpanzer, it was not possible due to the creation of smoke when firing. The FlaKPz IV "Wirbelwind" (Whirlwind) was an anti-aircraft tank mounted four 2cm cannons in an octagonal, open-top turret, which provided an impressive amount of firepower. The turret could be rotated at 60o/s. however, by late in the war 2cm shells weren't powerful enough to bring down Allied aircraft. On the other hand, it was a devastating weapon against ground troops. With production starting in mid 1944, in total 105 were produced till the end of the war.
Can anyone explain with only >105 produced< and the lack of power to shoot down a Goon, is this GV like a 110 with tracks........?
Overmodeled maybe .....?
Hell at least perk it .........I mean only three hundred ME262'z made into combat and the perks are usually in the triple digits........
The REV :devil
Over 1,400 Schwalbe's were produced and over 200 saw combat. Understand the the number of 262's IN COMBAT is just less than HALF of the 428 NIK2's produced.