Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: BlauK on April 22, 2008, 07:26:11 AM
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http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=80713
Interesting to see what this will lead into.
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whoa
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(http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/drPutin.jpg)
WE have done nothing of the sort!! :noid
But, but...unless you pay us ONE MILLION DOLLARS...we will do it again...bwehehehee!!
:rofl
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gotta love the Russian response "nonsense."
:huh
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,234112.0.html
BTW, Abkhazian armed forces have two Su-27s.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,234112.0.html
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Looks more like an Su-27 to me. Watch it full screen here: -
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1313614,00.html
It is hard to tell, but to me, when it is first turning to attack, the profile looks more like a Su-27 than a Mig-29... Also, the missile seems to come off the wingtip, does the 29 have wingtip pylons?
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(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTb_p5FA5IxDcA9GejzbkF/SIG=125re6eau/EXP=1208968697/**http%3A//avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/mig-29.jpg)
Mig-29 Fulcrum
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTb_wIFQ5IjiMAH0.jzbkF/SIG=12hrmounq/EXP=1208968840/**http%3A//www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/gallery/pd_su-27_16.jpg)
Su-27 Flanker
Most likely that was a Su-27 that shot down the UAV. The missle is seen to come off the wingtip and the Mig-29 is not equiped with tip rails, but the Su-27 is and from a distance and looking through a camera lense they do appear similar in shape.
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I believe that it is a mig29 and that the missle is bieng launch from the outer most pylon, but not from the wingtip, pause at the moment f launch and measure the wing. It seems that the distance and angle make it look like its fireing from the wingtip...
In any case the relative size of the plane makes me think its a mig, but i may easily be wrong..
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I wonder what the bonus structure is for missile versus cannon kills? Seems like it'd save a lot AND be a good indicator of ability to use guns.
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From the front profile in the video it does kind of look like an SU-27 not a Mig 29.
It's hard too see for sure, but the intakes seem a bit too far apart to be a Mig. IIRC the Mig 29 intakes are rather close together (closer than a SU-27 anyway).
Also, to me anyway, it does look like the missile came off the end of the wing and not an underwing mounted pylon.
My money's on it being a Flanker, and the Russians had nothing to do with it.
RTR
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People here agreed that it was indeed a MiG on that tape, firing a missile from outer-most hardpoint, plus only MiGs have such a nose painted black.
Anyway, it's obviously a fake because Abkhazians already showed two wrecks from Hermes drones, and this one was obviously shot down over sea.
Georgian drone was shot not over Georgia, but over Abkhazia. Abkhazia has much more rights for independence then Kosovo. And any military aircraft, including artillery recon drones, flying from Georgian side, are a direct violation of a cease-fire conditions, agreed and signed by all sides including Western observers.
I wonder what is going to happen if vermins will shoot down an Abkhazian/Osetian "Pchela" drone over Zugdidi or Gori. I expect 150dB screaming from Tbilisi and US DoS.
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The Mig29s cannon must have its barrels changed after firing only a mere 150 rounds. Its a lightweight cannon.
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At least Boroda agrees, it's a Mig 29, probably Russian. Boroda, have you ever considered a career in the FSB? You'd fit right in.
Those of you, who are right wing conservative Americans. Boroda is your opposite number in Russia. 'My country, right or wrong.' I admire that. There a couple of people on this forum, often as not people who I don't neccessarily agree with, who have a viewpoint. Right wing, left wing, liberal or conservative or libertarian. Boroda is one, Lazs is another. They make life interesting. I have a feeling that if Lazs was born in the old CCCP and Boroda in the USA. Nothing would have changed. (Lazs, I am aware you are libertarian, kinda, not right wing)
That's why it remains one of my favourite forums.
Great video though, drones have come a long way. But if we ever needed to know what it's like to be shot down by an AAM. That's it.
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The Mig29s cannon must have its barrels changed after firing only a mere 150 rounds. Its a lightweight cannon.
Wow, where do you come up with this stuff??
Have any credible information on this little tidbit?
RTR
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Bah humbug! It was really me in my 110 with AA rockets cleverly disquised as a mig. :D I only shot because i knew it couldn't shoot back. :lol
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Here you go Aquashrimp:
Mig 29 uses a GSh-30-1 single barreled linear cannon. The Mig 29 originally had a max load out of 150 rounds, however this was reduced to 100 rounds.
The life of the barrel was approximately 2000 (read thousand) rounds. This wasn't because the barrel was trashed. The barrel was manufactured to a
fairly close tolerance in diameter to improve accuracy. It was replaced when it exceeded the tolerance.
Amazing what a little research can turn up eh?
RTR
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How many perks did the pilot of the Russian made plane get? :noid
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Here you go Aquashrimp:
Mig 29 uses a GSh-30-1 single barreled linear cannon. The Mig 29 originally had a max load out of 150 rounds, however this was reduced to 100 rounds.
The life of the barrel was approximately 2000 (read thousand) rounds. This wasn't because the barrel was trashed. The barrel was manufactured to a
fairly close tolerance in diameter to improve accuracy. It was replaced when it exceeded the tolerance.
Amazing what a little research can turn up eh?
RTR
I believe Tony Williams called the GSh-30-1 the best flying gun ever made.
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I believe Tony Williams called the GSh-30-1 the best flying gun ever made.
I don't know if I'd go that far. I kinda tend to lean towards this bad boy right here.
(http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/GAU-8-Avenger1.jpg)
GAU-8 Avenger
(http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03h.gif)
The most powerfull gun ever installed on a fighter type aircraft. :rock
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it defanately came from the wing tips
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I don't know if I'd go that far. I kinda tend to lean towards this bad boy right here.
(http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/GAU-8-Avenger1.jpg)
GAU-8 Avenger
(http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03h.gif)
The most powerfull gun ever installed on a fighter type aircraft. :rock
Also the heaviest and bulkiest. Both the GAU-8 and the GSh-30-1 fire high velocity 30mm shells. The GAU-8 has a rate of fire of 3,900 rounds per minute and weighs 281 kg (619.5 lbs). The GSh-30-1 has a rate of fire of 1,620 rounds per minute and weighs 45 kg (99.2 lbs).
For the same weight of one GAU-8 you can have six GSh-30-1 cannons firing a combined 9,720 rounds per minute. The GSh-30-1 is compact, lightweight and cycled by its ammunition (as opposed to external hydraulic or electrical power used on Gatling guns).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/GSh-301_cropped.jpg)
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Here you go Aquashrimp:
Mig 29 uses a GSh-30-1 single barreled linear cannon. The Mig 29 originally had a max load out of 150 rounds, however this was reduced to 100 rounds.
The life of the barrel was approximately 2000 (read thousand) rounds. This wasn't because the barrel was trashed. The barrel was manufactured to a
fairly close tolerance in diameter to improve accuracy. It was replaced when it exceeded the tolerance.
Amazing what a little research can turn up eh?
RTR
First off, I would like to say that you are very much insane.
Secondly, my fact was from an article I read about 10 years ago. I simply remembered the wrong number. That doesn't change the fact that the barrel has a very short life. Especially when compared to the M61 Vulcan.
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The M61 is a fat, heavy, impractical gun that takes a whole second to spin up to full rpm. Why the US continue to use this outdated weapon is a mystery to me.
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BTW, Abkhazian armed forces have two Su-27s.
huh? can i see pictures please? :devil
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Azkaban has two SU-27s? Damn you Voldemort!
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(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTb_p5FA5IxDcA9GejzbkF/SIG=125re6eau/EXP=1208968697/**http%3A//avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/mig-29.jpg)
Mig-29 Fulcrum
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTb_wIFQ5IjiMAH0.jzbkF/SIG=12hrmounq/EXP=1208968840/**http%3A//www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/gallery/pd_su-27_16.jpg)
Su-27 Flanker
Most likely that was a Su-27 that shot down the UAV. The missle is seen to come off the wingtip and the Mig-29 is not equiped with tip rails, but the Su-27 is and from a distance and looking through a camera lense they do appear similar in shape.
at one point you can see the "hump" that the flanker has, which is not present on the fulcrum...definitly agree it most likely is a flanker....
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I believe Tony Williams called the GSh-30-1 the best flying gun ever made.
better than the A-10's cannon?
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The M61 is a fat, heavy, impractical gun that takes a whole second to spin up to full rpm. Why the US continue to use this outdated weapon is a mystery to me.
Because it works EVERY time you pull the trigger. It doesn't jam, and the high rate of fire makes for a greater first time hit over a regular cannon. The modern gatlin gun can't be beat by a single barreled weapon system for the amount of steel on target in the shortest time.
Yes it's heavy, and it takes a bit to warm it up, but once it's there, look out.
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I nearly ducked when i first watched that clip. some sort of AH relapse.
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Because it works EVERY time you pull the trigger. It doesn't jam, and the high rate of fire makes for a greater first time hit over a regular cannon. The modern gatlin gun can't be beat by a single barreled weapon system for the amount of steel on target in the shortest time.
Yes it's heavy, and it takes a bit to warm it up, but once it's there, look out.
You'll agree that in modern jet combat half a second is quite a long time? While the M61 is excellent for strafing lightly armoured ground targets, the M61 only fires 18 rounds during the first half second, which is only 4 more than the GSh-30-1. And let's consider what kind of "steel" each gun is putting on target:
(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ModernAC.jpg)
The M61 fires the 20x102 mm (second from the left), the GSh-30-1 fires the 30x165 mm (tallest of them all). A single round of 30x165 will most likely destroy or cripple a fighter sized aircraft. This is why the MiG-29 only carries 100-150 rounds of ammo for its gun, while M61 armed planes must carry 500+ rounds.
And you get two GSh-30-1 for the weight of one M61.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/modern_fighter_gun_effectiveness.htm
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Nice link. Good info one there but it never really discussed reliability. The advantage that the M61 and GAU-8 have is that they are very difficult to jam. If a round doesn't fire it just gets kicked out. The M61 and GAU-8 use linkless ammo so there is one less thing to get in the way. Also the guns are electrically driven, and can be reversed to clear a malfunction should it occur.
The Gsh-30 is a recoil operated weapon. If a round doesn't fire, the gun is useless until the round is cleared from the chamber. Can the gun be cleared in flight? It also uses linked ammo. Links can and do cause malfuntions.
I'm not saying the Gsh-30 is a bad weapon, but I'd rather trade a little bit of increased weight for higher reliablility and higher rate of fire.
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Me insane?
No....okay, maybe a little bit ;)
I just have a low tolerance for misinformation wether it's intentional or unintentional. A little research is always a good thing.
Trust, but verify kind of thing.
cheers,
RTR
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Russian gatlings weigh about 70kg (depends on model, two people easily carry them), are gas-operated (don't require external power) and with special muzzle devices reach full rotation speed after the first shot... Technical rate of fire reaches 9000rpm.
Some rapidfire cannons like R-23 used on Tu-22 (and also on some spacecrafts) are also impossible to jam, special cartridge is ejected forward by gas, and IIRC "ignition" is backed up by a force of flame penetrating the side of the cartridge.
Back to the topic: if you look at the Georgian "recording" you see the sun reflecting in the water. It's not Abkhazian Black-Sea coast.
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Boroda, any thoughts on why Moscow hasn't denied this?
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Nice link. Good info one there but it never really discussed reliability. The advantage that the M61 and GAU-8 have is that they are very difficult to jam. If a round doesn't fire it just gets kicked out. The M61 and GAU-8 use linkless ammo so there is one less thing to get in the way. Also the guns are electrically driven, and can be reversed to clear a malfunction should it occur.
The Gsh-30 is a recoil operated weapon. If a round doesn't fire, the gun is useless until the round is cleared from the chamber. Can the gun be cleared in flight? It also uses linked ammo. Links can and do cause malfuntions.
I'm not saying the Gsh-30 is a bad weapon, but I'd rather trade a little bit of increased weight for higher reliablility and higher rate of fire.
All modern fighter guns automatically clears a misfired round. Though in linear guns like the GSh it will interrupt firing, unlike in externally powered revolver or Gatling type guns. You can have two GSh's for the weight of one M61 ... the likelihood of both guns misfiring at the same time is negligible. French fighters typically use two single barrelled 30 mm DEFA guns. The Israeli also prefer using two 30 mm guns in its indigenous designs. In fact only the US still use multi-barrel guns in their fighters.
If you look at the Tony Williams site you will notice that the effectiveness of the M61 is only half of that of the GSh-301, so you'll need two M61's to achieve the same effectiveness as a single GSh-301. Two M61 weigh a whopping four times as much as a GSh-301, and are far more bulky. Space is at a premium in aircraft designs, especially in small fighters like the F-16 and MiG-29.
(http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=47389&g2_serialNumber=3)
Here's a small video of a GSh-301 firing: http://airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/gsh-301/img/gsh301.avi
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Boroda, any thoughts on why Moscow hasn't denied this?
Our Foreign Ministry and Armed Forces denied it.
It's funny: Georgians denied it themselves, for almost 24 hours after Abzkazians showed the second wreck.
Georgian regime is outrageously stupid. Looks like they are busy mostly dividing American money.
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Boroda, I was chatting with a Russian sergeant the other day and he also seemed to think that Ukraine is a US puppet and that all the problems are some US conspiracy. Care to elaborate on what makes Russians believe this?
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Boroda, I was chatting with a Russian sergeant the other day and he also seemed to think that Ukraine is a US puppet and that all the problems are some US conspiracy. Care to elaborate on what makes Russians believe this?
Maybe 80M US dollars spent on "supporting democracy in Ukraine"? And the way American ambassador opens the Ukrainian president's door.
As for Georgia, they admit that all their government gets their salaries in US DoS. Their army gets American training, they receive used US hardware etc. Do you really think that Georgia can afford that Hermes drones? Look, they are so poor that they had to close trolley-bus lines in their capital, Tbilisi. And before 1990 they were the richest Soviet republic!
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True footage from Georgian drone revealed!
(http://photofile.ru/photo/cyxymu/2827573/97354339.jpg)
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Maybe 80M US dollars spent on "supporting democracy in Ukraine"? And the way American ambassador opens the Ukrainian president's door.
As for Georgia, they admit that all their government gets their salaries in US DoS. Their army gets American training, they receive used US hardware etc. Do you really think that Georgia can afford that Hermes drones? Look, they are so poor that they had to close trolley-bus lines in their capital, Tbilisi. And before 1990 they were the richest Soviet republic!
What's wrong with supporting democracy in Ukraine? What's wrong with giving money to people you like and want to support?
Oh, and 80 million isn't a lot of money for a government. Bush spent more than twice that on his election campaign alone.
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What's wrong with supporting democracy in Ukraine? What's wrong with giving money to people you like and want to support?
In Real World it's called "interference into domestic affairs".
Politicians paid by a foreign power usually mind their employer's business, not their own people.
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In the free world anyone is allowed to "interfere" as much as they like as long as they don't break the law. Giving money to friends is usually not illegal. Not even in Russia.
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In Real World it's called "interference into domestic affairs".
Politicians paid by a foreign power usually mind their employer's business, not their own people.
It's only interference if the outsider isn't invited. The US was asked by the Ukrainian Government for assistance, so we helped out. Besides the people in Ukraine seem to like Americans. At least it seemed that way to me when I was in Odessa back in 2001, ironicly involved in a NATO combined arms exercise hosted by Ukraine. We were in Poti Georgia before that. Folks there seemed to like us as well.
Oh and don't forget all the money we've tossed at Russia since the fall of the USSR either. Guess that means your boy Putin is on the US payrole as well huh?
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why is Russia picken on Georgia anway?
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Because after the USSR fell apart, they flipped old mother Russia the bird and went out on their own, started talking to Uncle Sam and that pissed em off.
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Yup.
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I wonder what kind of perk points he got for the shot?? LOL :t :rock :salute
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In Real World it's called "interference into domestic affairs".
I think you lads have misunderstood Boroda here. When he says 'domestic', he doesn't mean Georgian domestic - he means Russian domestic.
There lies the problem, I think. For many Russians, the Ukraine et al are just rebellious regions of the USSR.
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While too lazy to read the wholw flimming thread, I'd ask how close to the Russian border the remote-recce was.
????
I mean, airspace is so quickly passed, and was this enough to scramble the system of the Russians, or were they just playing the evil joker with a target they knew to be a drone?
Next time, the drone will have a sidewinder, so georgy goes up the russky :noid
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Back to the GSh-301 for a moment. It is a feat of engineering that the rapid-firing 30 mm GSh-301 weighs only 7 kg (15 lbs) more than this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Machine_gun_M2_1.jpg)
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F-35 is going to use the GAU-12. Four barreled, 25mm cannon.
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Yup. At first they considered the Mauser BK 27, but ultimately selected the indigenous GAU-12.
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In the free world anyone is allowed to "interfere" as much as they like as long as they don't break the law. Giving money to friends is usually not illegal. Not even in Russia.
But doing something in Russia to displease Putin is definitely a No No....
Look at what happened to that woman reporter, and the KGB guy that defected to the UK??
While the drone was flying over Georgian airspace, it appears to be alongside one of the rivers separating the two countries. So it may have been able to look over the border a little bit into Russian territory.
.
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Because after the USSR fell apart, they flipped old mother Russia the bird and went out on their own, started talking to Uncle Sam and that pissed em off.
No.This isn't a high school.Nobody gives a damn about who's talking to who.
Its the US military bases in Ukraine and Georgia.
Uncle Sam didn't like Russians in Cuba,did he?
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Uncle Sam didn't like Soviets on Cuba ... big difference.