Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Adonai on June 09, 2008, 01:15:41 PM
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List taken down - View these websites for more information.
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm)
and http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://and http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
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110C-4, one of the slowest fighters in LW arena is rated as speed=average?? 110G4 and 109F 4 speed=good? With LW arena in mind?
You should check your numbers ;)
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I wrote this up off top of my head - gimmie break :aok
p.s I can modify anything you feel should be changed
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I wrote this up off top of my head - gimmie break :aok
p.s I can modify anything you feel should be changed
While I welcome this approach on giving new players a quick overview, I do thoroughly recommend not to simply post such lists in Help & Training "from the top off my head"
I think it's better to double check numbers first before posting guesses here, or you you may confuse new players more than you might help them.
Just my opinion, of course ;)
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Well of course the idea is give a general "idea" not exact numbers, if they want they can check gonzo's website
to see exactly how much faster, or turn rate a plane has over one another.
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Well of course the idea is give a general "idea" not exact numbers, if they want they can check gonzo's website
to see exactly how much faster, or turn rate a plane has over one another.
Even "general idea" should be based on reality = numbers as much as possible. You simply shouldn't post wrong information accidentally, just because you are doing it from the top of your head without checking the facts first. It never hurts to check before posting
If someone reads 110C = "averag" speed, he will believe it's better than "poor". That may kill him -In fact more than 50 out of 60 fighter planes in AH2 are faster than a 110C. You rated a 109E as "poor", yet it's considerable faster than a "average" 110C at all altitudes up to 15k.
I may just be a bit sensible about posting in H&T rather than General Discussion or Aircraft forums. ;)
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Better yet compare the speed/climb charts as well as fuel, weapons, and weight info on all the HTC aircraft detail pages.
Or have people play around with http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
to better get a feel of compared performances on certain planes.
I just wish that page would list bombers, too!
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Definally true, I believe once someone chooses a plane to try out they need to hit up
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm)
and http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
Both these website are invaluable tools to learning all planes and aircraft.
P.S I didn't bother adding bombers for idea was based on fighters in a late war arena only and under 15k.
Easily to argue every aircrafts performance down to numbers but for a new guy with no ACM or knowledge of the aircraft,
a rough estimate can help him understand better and learn to classify planes based on their performance.
But Lusche if you feel these 2 posts will hinder a newer players choice in an aircraft I can take it down?
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I think you are misunderstanding me.
I said "I welcome that approach" - meaning I'm totally agreeing with you that some general categorisation is often better and less confusing than posting a bunch of numbers. It's easier to grasp. He who is interested in more detail may indeed look up numbers on the various other pages. It's a good thing.
I'm merely criticizing they way you have done it. Instead of setting yourself some criteria and checking them, you have done it "from the top of your head". Which often leads to plain wrong statements like the ones I pointed out above. I'm merely pleading for a more serious, or if you want "scientific" approach. Get your data together, define the categories and judge the planes accordingly.
While it may be difficult to tulips a very broad category like "maneuverability", things like "speed" or "acceleration" are indeed easy top sort out.
When new players see such a list, they normally tend to read it like gospel ;) So don't just post things from the top of your head - Always try to make sure it's correct info before posting instead of going into lenghty edits afterwards :P
BTW, did you ever visit: http://www.jcsautomation.com/AH_View_Planes.asp?UpdateSort=yes&SortOrder=DESC&PreviousSortField=CMu&SortField=Plane
You could take that kind of approach as a guide....
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Took list offline, not going to debate over a veteran player on which methods to help a complete new player learn a game.
I only offered 3 hours writing that information up as my way to contribute, I apologise for the post being not worthy enough here :aok
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Adonai,
I think a wee bit of imaturity is coming thru. Your list is a worthy project and offers some decent insight from someone who has taken the time to learn and improve your game dramatically in a relatively short time. No one (including me) is going to agree with completely. Lushes comments were well ment...no reason to act like he just pissed in your cheerios. I think your intentions are good and your info of solid overall value. Build on it and refine it, dont just ditch it...think of us as proof readers not antagonists.
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Was attempting to simplify the information to a list people can view and see which aircraft fits them best.
However if numbers is what they want they can view the websites given and get more detailed information there, however
was not the intent of this post at all.
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Was attempting to simplify the information to a list people can view and see which aircraft fits them best.
However if numbers is what they want
You apparently didn't read my post at all:
I think you are misunderstanding me.
I said "I welcome that approach" - meaning I'm totally agreeing with you that some general categorisation is often better and less confusing than posting a bunch of numbers. It's easier to grasp. He who is interested in more detail may indeed look up numbers on the various other pages.
Where do I say "it's numbers that I want"? I was merely criticizing the rather careless way you were compiling your info
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"careless" I know, I wasn't expecting my first draft to be perfect on the money, sorry.
Don't worry bout the list, was just trying to offer my input hoping to help community. I won't do so anymore
so there wont be anymore conflicts with my "crappy" way of posting my ideas. :salute
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I wasn't expecting my first draft to be perfect on the money, sorry.
But you should. Or better: Don't publish quick first drafts without double-checking, at least not in H&T forum - It's more confusing here as many inexperienced players come here for reliable information. Check your info to make sure it's as correct as possible (errors still can happen of course). Or you should at least put a disclaimer like "All values are from my memory" or "My thoughts, please discuss" or similar to make clear it's only been a draft. So people just see a list and take it for granted.
And on a personal note: You should work a bit on your ability to cope with criticism on details. You won't have much of a career in later life if you feel being offended and give up that easy just because someone criticises a part of your work - especially someone actually trying to help you ;)
But again I DO appreciate your attempts to help, train & educate new players!
EDIT: Just saw your edit... oh my :rolleyes:
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But you should. Or better: Don't publish quick first drafts without double-checking, at least not in H&T forum - It's more confusing here as many inexperienced players come here for reliable information. Check your info to make sure it's as correct as possible (errors still can happen of course). Or you should at least put a disclaimer like "All values are from my memory" or "My thoughts, please discuss" or similar to make clear it's only been a draft. So people just see a list and take it for granted.
And on a personal note: You should work a bit on your ability to cope with criticism on details. You won't have much of a career in later life if you feel being offended and give up that easy just because someone criticises a part of your work - especially someone actually trying to help you ;)
But again I DO appreciate your attempts to help, train & educate new players
EDIT: Just saw your edit... oh my :rolleyes:
I have no problem with constructive criticism, infact I welcome it but when someone shows a rather discrepant criticism, I ask myself why bother?
Edit: im not gona bother discussing this anymore, I'm sorry I wasted my time on what I thought was a good project to build on.
But thats how the aces high community is :salute
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I have no problem with constructive criticism, infact I welcome it but when someone shows a rather discrepant criticism, I ask myself why bother?
Edit: im not gona bother discussing this anymore, I'm sorry I wasted my time on what I thought was a good project to build on.
But thats how the aces high community is :salute
I told you several times its a good project.
I told you that its a good thing.
I told you I like that format you had chosen.
I tried to encourage you to carry on.
But for some odd reason you have chosen to ignore that. I criticised detaills in realization, you take it as an offense. In fact, you seem to repeatedlly read read into my posts that aren't there.
You clearly can't take criticism. It's sad to say, but that's a very infantile behaviour.
I'm done.
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:rolleyes: ok I'll tell you all again, if you're not flying a 51,47 or 38 you just ain't doing it right. And that concludes todays training session.
As you were gentlemen...and Adonai! :lol :salute
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what about bf 109s? we need love too dangit! :aok
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I have no problem with constructive criticism, infact I welcome it but when someone shows a rather discrepant criticism, I ask myself why bother?
Edit: im not gona bother discussing this anymore, I'm sorry I wasted my time on what I thought was a good project to build on.
But thats how the aces high community is :salute
First off, Adonai, this was a good idea, but subsequently you have made it so difficult on yourself...
Alright, based on what I have seen here, yes you do have a problem with constructive criticism. Lusche has told you over and over again that this is a great idea, and has encouraged you, yes, to even carry on with the idea. The problem he has with it, happens to be the same problem I have with it....
I don't know why you did this. Maybe you're trying to better the community, or maybe your just trying to get props for attempting something good, or whatever. It doesn't matter what I think. What does matter is the fact that you basically put minimal effort into the project, and went off "the top of your head." What's wrong with that is that newer players (like Lusche said) come in here looking to find the best uber plane (even though there isn't one...) and end up seeing something like this and believing that all of it is true, even when there are obvious errors and inconsistent data (especially considering that it was compiled not by using solid data, but your memory...).
It's a good idea, it really is, but like Lusche said, there needs to be some consistent way to rank the planes, not just by "oh I'm pretty sure the 110C is pretty fast so I'll label it as...." and this plane, "eh well if I remember right, it wasn't so good, so I'll put it as...".
Understand?
donkey
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I'll probably catch some flak over this but....the History Channel rated the top 10 fighters of all time and the 51 mustang won because it was the best ALL AROUND fighter of all time. It's not great in any one area but does most everything well. 109s will eat a 51 up in certain situations, and vice versa. 110s are generally a easy kill for me unless I fight Dastrly.He doesn't make the mistakes I do and I usually pay the price.
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The P-51 was historically a very good aircraft, but I'm sorry, in AHII right now, the thing sucks. As an airplane, I think it is the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to catch one. It doesn't even have the roll rate and toughness that make FWs and Jugs such slippery targets. Yeah, I know there are some great P-51 sticks in AHII, but they would be great in any plane. Put them in Corsairs, D-9s, or Jugs and the carnage they wreak would only increase. All the AHII Mustang really has right now is OPHA style fighting, which some other planes do better. And as I have been discovering, the P-47-that freaking 8 ton behemoth-is actually BETTER than the Pony in in a knife-fight as long as you do't over-load it...better roll rate, better stability with all the flaps down, and, this is the bizarre part, better turn radius w/ flaps. If you know anything about what the relative strengths of the Mustang and Thunderbolt were historically, you can see why this is insane. It is shameful that the most famous piece of American Iron is being represented this badly.
I'll probably catch some flak over this but....the History Channel rated the top 10 fighters of all time and the 51 mustang won because it was the best ALL AROUND fighter of all time. It's not great in any one area but does most everything well. 109s will eat a 51 up in certain situations, and vice versa. 110s are generally a easy kill for me unless I fight Dastrly.He doesn't make the mistakes I do and I usually pay the price.
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Well-flown 109s will always eat up the Pony in AHII right now in anything resembling a fair fight, so will the 110 unless the Pony bnzs it, it which case the 110 still stands a decent chance of forcing the Pony to run or die.
This of course matches up with how things were in WWII, where the P-51 NEVER succesfully maneuver-fought the 109, and 110s were considered dangerous opponents.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I'll probably catch some flak over this but....the History Channel rated the top 10 fighters of all time and the 51 mustang won because it was the best ALL AROUND fighter of all time. It's not great in any one area but does most everything well. 109s will eat a 51 up in certain situations, and vice versa. 110s are generally a easy kill for me unless I fight Dastrly.He doesn't make the mistakes I do and I usually pay the price.
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What is OPHA style fighting? :salute
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What is OPHA style fighting? :salute
One Pass Haul A**.
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:rofl Hajo was doing that to
me yesterday morning :mad: In a jug no less :lol
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i think that the best all around american plane is the p38 or the corsair both very ecelent planes.
38 doesnt do everything great but has a lot going for it
and the hog is a monster in the right hands.
thats one reason i dont really fly the 51 much unless i just want to make opha fights
now it is fun to fly when the few inferior planes want to turnfight you alone but lets face it for me that hapens rarely.
i like the p47 d40 better than the 51 not as fast but at least i earn more perks with it. eny 15or 20 if i remember right.
isnt the only thing keeping the d pony from being eny 10 or 15 instead of 8 its speed and feild of veiw? oh yea and fuel range.
personaly i think it should be a 10
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i think that the best all around american plane is the p38 or the corsair both very ecelent planes.
The F6F Hellcat produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.
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The F6F Hellcat produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.
I was about to look up that information because i thought it was somewhat true. I think I remember it as it had the most kills. The History channel may be going by more of what a plane can do rather than how many kills or fighter aces it produced.
Edit: Kills may not be an accurat way of deciding which was best either. As the war continued more and more German and Japanese pilots were killed and both sides were running out of experienced fighters. The 109's maybe had the most aces at one time but does that mean it was the best plane of WW2?
IN Game I say it's the F4U's and 38's which are best in the right hands. Neither of which I can fly extremely well but have died enough times to know they are very deadly here in AH.
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The P-51 was historically a very good aircraft, but I'm sorry, in AHII right now, the thing sucks.
Some people probably showered their drink thru their nose, reading that. The 51D's definitely near the top of the short list of best fighters in the game.
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Some people probably showered their drink thru their nose, reading that. The 51D's definitely near the top of the short list of best fighters in the game.
How so Moot? As a bnz'er, hunter plane, its okay I guess. But many planes fill that niche well. As a 1v1 fighter? It turns nearly as badly as the 190s, without the climb, accell, roll rate, or firepower. It climbs and accelerates only a little better than the Corsair, while being vastly inferior in turn. P-51 zooms well, but no better than the Hog. A freakin' JUG can beat it in angles fighting right now. The P-51's gun package is not particularly deadly. It is not even the best runner.
The fact that is flown by some of the best pilots in the game and they fly it extremely does not mean the plane itself is that great, as modeled in AHII.
Short list of best fighters? Here is my "short list" of planes that will generally kill/drive off the Pony in a Co-E fight between equal opponents:
Corsair
Spit
109
Ki-84
P-38
N1K
And thats just off the top of my head, without going into sub-models.
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Which models on that list? The 109E isn't top tier.
I was saying the 51D certainly doesn't "suck", and that it's definitely one of the best fighters.. Saying a jug out-angles it is a loaded comparison, imo. Like saying a jug out-turns a 190. Look at it from the other extreme, and it's not just OK as a bnz hunter, it's definitely one of the very best. In fact, any fight that starts and/or continues at 360 mph will give the pony a pretty large headstart on the win.
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Found a GREAT VID on the F6
The F6 had over 5000 kills and the had the highest kill ratio of WW2
In game it's a good fighter, excellent jabo plane but suffers many deaths to the more capable.
In game trying to kill zekes with it is just as hard as trying to kill most every other plane...in other words, nothing to easy about trying to fly this one unless it's all you fly.
IMO the F6 needs a remodeling here. It needs to be a bit faster and turn better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc&feature=related
YouTube - Dogfights: " F6F Hellcat " 1 of 5
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109g14 fighting the stall 10 feet off the ground makes some of the bs worth it.
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Found a GREAT VID on the F6
The F6 had over 5000 kills and the had the highest kill ratio of WW2
In game it's a good fighter, excellent jabo plane but suffers many deaths to the more capable.
In game trying to kill zekes with it is just as hard as trying to kill most every other plane...in other words, nothing to easy about trying to fly this one unless it's all you fly.
IMO the F6 needs a remodeling here. It needs to be a bit faster and turn better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc&feature=related
YouTube - Dogfights: " F6F Hellcat " 1 of 5
The F6F is modeled fine with the exception of it's low speed departure, which is a little too rapid and without much warning IMO. My current 6 month K/D rate in it is 5.44 with a best camp of 14.50. That's against both GV's and aircraft.
Fighting Zekes, keep your speed up and use vertical slashing attacks (just as they did in RL) and they won't stand a chance.
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This is the reason that there is no "best" fighter in Aces High. You can only say best at one particular thing, and even that's probably up for debate. Without getting into the debate about the accuracy of the current P51 model, one of the big strengths of the P51 is its ability to dictate the fight and engage or dis-engage at will. I always feel (whether it's accurate or not) that the P51 is best at getting me home in one piece :) Best in any sort of extended manuever fight? Not so much.
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i like the p47 d40 better than the 51 not as fast but at least i earn more perks with it. eny 15or 20 if i remember right.
Please clarify for me, when in the hanger choosing a plane and at the top one of the categories is "eny". What does this signify? Is the higher or lower number better?
Thanks
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Please clarify for me, when in the hanger choosing a plane and at the top one of the categories is "eny". What does this signify? Is the higher or lower number better?
Thanks
ENY is a system for getting perk points. The lower ENY planes are supposedly "better". Shooting down a high ENY plane with a low ENY plane doesn't get you many perks, but doing the opposite gets you a lot of them.
ENY has since been expanded as a way to side balance in the MA's. When a particular counrty starts getting too large a numerical advantage, ENY will kick in, limiting the low ENY end of the plane set, and forcing the higher numbered country to fly more challenging planes.
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Once again very helpful. I was wondering why I could not fly certain planes sometimes. Sounds like a good tool (potentially) to ensure paridy in the arenas.
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Once again very helpful. I was wondering why I could not fly certain planes sometimes. Sounds like a good tool (potentially) to ensure paridy in the arenas.
Well.. it does not exactly balance the arenas, but makes the hording side cry about it ("Unfair!" or "Why do only we always get ENY?" or "crappy programming !")
I enjoy it. :D
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Points you get are your plane's eny divided by that of what you shot down. Multiplied by 1.5 if you land on a CV, and 1.25 on any other landing area.
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ENY is a system for getting perk points. The lower ENY planes are supposedly "better". Shooting down a high ENY plane with a low ENY plane doesn't get you many perks, but doing the opposite gets you a lot of them.
ENY has since been expanded as a way to side balance in the MA's. When a particular counrty starts getting too large a numerical advantage, ENY will kick in, limiting the low ENY end of the plane set, and forcing the higher numbered country to fly more challenging planes.
Thanks, BaldEagl, I've used that as the basis for a wiki page on ENY (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/ENY).
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The F6F is modeled fine with the exception of it's low speed departure, which is a little too rapid and without much warning IMO. My current 6 month K/D rate in it is 5.44 with a best camp of 14.50. That's against both GV's and aircraft.
Fighting Zekes, keep your speed up and use vertical slashing attacks (just as they did in RL) and they won't stand a chance.
The F6F-5 flight model has an odd roll instability at high AoA that causes the violent departure. It's also 20 mph too slow at best altitude. There's volumes of vintage test data showing the F6F-3 being capable of at least 391 mph using WEP, and the F6F-5 reaching 406 to 409 mph with WEP as well. This should be corrected when the F6F comes up for updating.
My regards,
Widewing
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The F6F-5 flight model has an odd roll instability at high AoA that causes the violent departure. It's also 20 mph too slow at best altitude. There's volumes of vintage test data showing the F6F-3 being capable of at least 391 mph using WEP, and the F6F-5 reaching 406 to 409 mph with WEP as well. This should be corrected when the F6F comes up for updating.
My regards,
Widewing
Thank you, thank you, thank you! F6F needs a BIG overhaul.