Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: uptown on June 11, 2008, 11:45:14 AM
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I want to work on the rolling scissors in the DA until I get it down. If anyone could help me that'd be great. I'm on in the mornings from 7:30am to about noon central time. :salute
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:rofl you sissys are scared aren't you :rofl come on, stall fights are fun, besides I'm a easy kill :)
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I'd try to help but I'm at work then.
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That's way early. :(
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Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
and here is how it looks like in real life
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related
but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.
Yenny
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Rolling Scissors is not to hard, all you need to do is put all the flaps down, and keep going up with it untill the other guy stalls the airplane and pulls down. You can go right in for the kill.
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Rolling Scissors is not to hard, all you need to do is put all the flaps down, and keep going up with it untill the other guy stalls the airplane and pulls down. You can go right in for the kill.
That sounds more like a rope to me. Rolling scissors are quite different. If you see me online uptown I will duel you a few time and we can work on it. I use the move quite a bit.
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Skyrock was helping me out yesterday and I got the concept of it, but i just need alot of practice.I have a bad habit of spinning out of control and wanting to go inverted when i shouldn't and drop my nose when I should pull up.Since my main ride is the pony these days I feel the need to learn something besides blast in at 400mph and climb back up. :lol That doesn't take much skill and it's getting old.
Thank you for the replys and Bosco I'll look you up and if you're not too buzy well have a go at it . thanks :salute
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Rolling Scissors is not to hard, all you need to do is put all the flaps down, and keep going up with it untill the other guy stalls the airplane and pulls down. You can go right in for the kill.
that's a rope..
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TY jerkins, I'll look for you also sir.I agree that does sound like a rope to me too. What I want is to cause a faster con on my six in a climb with me, to over shoot. If he is say 600 back I go vertical and flip over, hit 1 or 2 notches of flap, throttle back and wait for him to fly by and into my guns.I guess what I'm trying to describe is a vertical rolling scissors.
My biggest problem is when I try to do this I stall out of control at the point where I can get a shot, missing the kill ever time.What Skyrock was trying to get me to do is flatten back out instead of going nose down to gain speed.Because this was just exposing my 6 to him all over again.
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TY jerkins, I'll look for you also sir.I agree that does sound like a rope to me too. What I want is to cause a faster con on my six in a climb with me, to over shoot. If he is say 600 back I go vertical and flip over, hit 1 or 2 notches of flap, throttle back and wait for him to fly by and into my guns.I guess what I'm trying to describe is a vertical rolling scissors.
My biggest problem is when I try to do this I stall out of control at the point where I can get a shot, missing the kill ever time.What Skyrock was trying to get me to do is flatten back out instead of going nose down to gain speed.Because this was just exposing my 6 to him all over again.
That's not a rolling scissors either. A rolling scissors is designed to allow a faster moving plane to remain behind the 3/9 line of a slower moving plane without losing speed or energy. You do this basically by barrel rolling to extend the horizontal and vertical elements of your flight path thereby increasing distance travelled while maintaining the flight path itself.
The fun in a rolling scissors starts when both guys are doing the same thing around each other for the same reason.
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Thats what I described, except I'm going straight up where as you're talking about horizonal...no?
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A rolling scissor is any scissor executed in an intertwined spiral. One of the key elements is to realize that the rolling scissor is a reactive move that needs to be altered/modified based on the cons level of involvment. I think thats what Mark was trying to teach/show you. You cant fly a "rolling scissor" in a preset pattern and its not a move you can really force easily. By definition its a defensive move thats "offered". The enemy can decline the scissors or not. Normally a rolling scissor is a transition from a break turn, if the con follows and the defender can successfully reverse then a scissors develops. If one or both use any type of vertical component a "rolling scissor" develops. What your describing is a vertical rolling scissor which is tough to achieve....
Here are a couple of old A-20 clips that involve various flavors of rolling scissors (going from memory here).
1st is spatula and I, basically the entire set of engagements is a variety of rolling scissors...
http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf)
The second one is a kind of variation on a rolling scissor. I'm not sure where the clip starts but at the end I get bounced by an La-7. I dont have any real set up for a rolling scissor so it gets converted to a climbing semi flat scissor....which i think is what Mark was saying to you. I dont want to speed up, I want to keep the AoA high and speed low but I need a vertical component...so you have a climbing "rolling" scissor but it's very oriented to the lala's actions.http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/meandmiami.ahf (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/meandmiami.ahf)
One real key to the rolling scissor is managing views, in both clips I'm pretty sure I've got my eyes on the bogy 100% (or close to it) of the time....
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ok thanks, i'll check it out. and yes i'm finding it REAL tough to achieve :mad:
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Spatula put his clip up also way back when. The a-20 is one of the few planes I can initiate a "rolling scissor fight" with as an offensive move. The problem is that in the end it relies on getting slower then the con and once you see it a few times guys learn to appear to "accept" it but then transition to a climbing spiral type of fight.
I'd recommend focusing on variation in AoA vs "vertical alignment"....you want either an ascending or decending rolling scissor based on what gives you the edge vs the other guy. If you handle high AoA better take it up, if you can scrub E better take it down (just my opinion)...
Heres the link to spatula's film of the fight (hope its still up)...
Best thing to to fly a few with the other guy fiming so you can see what your rolling scissor looks like to him...
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/taurineman/spat_humble.zip (http://www.my2cents.co.nz/taurineman/spat_humble.zip)
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Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
and here is how it looks like in real life
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related
but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.
Yenny
Those are some fun videos to watch. It's hard to watch them and not sway in my chair! :D
Thanks for posting. I especially enjoyed the RL one.
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Ok, so if i have this right you are in a slight climb with a con 600 back and closing at a decent rate. As i see it you have a couple of options. for argument sake, we will say the con is in the same plane as you
Option 1: fast rate of closure
In this case i would do a simple reversal. Start a gentle turn, and tighten as the con closes in. The gentle turn will bait the con into starting a lead turn, to cut inside of you and get guns on you. As you tighten your turn, he wont be able to hold his angle and he will miss. Now come the part that takes practice, when you sense the overshoot, go vertical and roll over onto him (sort of like a barrel roll). This will give a snapshot on him or you could possible saddle up on him.
Option 2: Moderate to slow rate of closure
i would not go vertical immediatly here, that will just lead to an easy shot. I would start by initiating a flat scissor, you are trying to get your oppenent to chop throttle and follow. Then when he was nice and close i would put a vertical element into it. I like rolling scissor, but climbing flat scissor could work also. Hopefully the con has blown his e, and will be just kinda floating there. Now you can drop in behind him.
The are purely hypothetical, but i have done things like this before it worked out. Takes practice to get the timing down.
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Off the wall Q.. Has anyone gotten into rolling scissors against a plane whose prop turns the other way, with both planes rolling in opposite directions?
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Off the wall Q.. Has anyone gotten into rolling scissors against a plane whose prop turns the other way, with both planes rolling in opposite directions?
Wouldn't that be impossible? Maybe a vertical or flat scissor but a true rolling scissor?
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Why impossible?
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Rolling Scissors animated GIF ( AVI type film wait for it to download all the way )
explained by Badboy - this link is from the Aces High Trainers Webpage
hope this helps:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors-ani.gif
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Dumb question: in a true rolling scissors, are you supposed to pop flaps and/or cut throttle, or keep an open throttle so that you can keep going vertical?
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Both
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Dumb question: in a true rolling scissors, are you supposed to pop flaps and/or cut throttle, or keep an open throttle so that you can keep going vertical?
Both. Usually, with about equal skill pilots, rolling scissors quickly deteriorate into very slow one, since it is used as defensive maneuver and main purpose is to make other guy overshoot (both will try to go slower than other). That means you'll have to cut throttle and drop flaps when on top and bottoms (and in between if necessary) and going full throttle on the way up.
Things can vary, depending on the planes, of course. Good example would be here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,211375.0.html , F4u vs Ki-84 in slow rolling scissors, where ki-84 had to travel larger corkscrew pattern due to higher speeds (engine power), whilst f4u (with full flaps) could turn tighter. Ultimately, f4u got behind ki-84, but then ki-84 broke the scissors and went into vertical where f4u couldn't quite follow.
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Wouldn't that be impossible? Maybe a vertical or flat scissor but a true rolling scissor?
Quite possible, although I've never seen it more than few rolls at the time.
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Ok, so if i have this right you are in a slight climb with a con 600 back and closing at a decent rate. As i see it you have a couple of options. for argument sake, we will say the con is in the same plane as you
Option 1: fast rate of closure
In this case i would do a simple reversal. Start a gentle turn, and tighten as the con closes in. The gentle turn will bait the con into starting a lead turn, to cut inside of you and get guns on you. As you tighten your turn, he wont be able to hold his angle and he will miss. Now come the part that takes practice, when you sense the overshoot, go vertical and roll over onto him (sort of like a barrel roll). This will give a snapshot on him or you could possible saddle up on him.
Option 2: Moderate to slow rate of closure
i would not go vertical immediatly here, that will just lead to an easy shot. I would start by initiating a flat scissor, you are trying to get your oppenent to chop throttle and follow. Then when he was nice and close i would put a vertical element into it. I like rolling scissor, but climbing flat scissor could work also. Hopefully the con has blown his e, and will be just kinda floating there. Now you can drop in behind him.
The are purely hypothetical, but i have done things like this before it worked out. Takes practice to get the timing down.
Both of these are options I like. The second option I use quite a bit for no other reason then it's easier and if i'm on the deck I'm usually as fast or faster then the bad guy.
Option 1, I can pull off on the noobs, but when it comes to some of the vets in the game...forget about it. I usually end up in the tower wondering what went wrong :lol
When this move is done to me, I see what is going to happen if I stay the coarse, so I also go vertical, hit a notch or 2 of flaps to slow to his speed and create some kind of separtion.The scissors begin and I usually stall out with the guy sattled on my 6.
This is what I need someone to work with me on.I usually drop my nose to gain speed and juke to get away but a pony regains E like crap and I'm forced to either run for a sector until I get it back or just hand the guy a kill.
At the point that I stall out of control I need to flatten out, hold my alt, and regain control. And try to go vertical again to stay above the con to get another shot.
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There are 3 kinds of scissors.
1. flat scissor
2. Rolling scissor
3. Verticle rolling scissor
1 Flat scissor:
This is done without any "rolling over". The reversal turns are done flat by weaving back and forth with the canopy "always" up. The true classic method is to use the turning in order to fly a shorter distance WITHOUT CUTTING THROTTLE. One should keep their speed but cause the over shoot by turning at the right time. One must get "out of sync" with the con behind you. Once you get one little angle like this is is immediatly amplified and you soon create the over shoot or come to a merge (if that is what you want). If done properly the con does not have time to go over the top into a yoyo. However if he cuts his throttle early and stays behing in lag persuit it won't work. BUT!!!! if the con cuts throttle and you don't you are still going faster than him. So straiten out and create seperation. Or after coming to the con or on the "turn toward the con" keep going strait as he passes. This is called an "exit" and will give you time to extend, get energy and merge again.
I should mention the difference between real life and this game. In real life NO PILOT would ever cut his throttle. Here in Aces High we regularly use throttle tricks to create overshoots and other moves. But in real life and death a pilot would just make a counter move by either climbing out or yoyo over the top. Real life scissors wouldnt last more than a few turns before somebody bugged out for better position. But in this GAME we have the oppurtunity to take it all the way...something that probably wouldnt happen in real life WW2.
2. Rolling scissor:
This is the most common kind of scissor done in the game. Givin 2 equal pilots the fight will deteriate into a rolling scissor with a trading of position several times. It usually gets slower and slower with both trying to get guns AND keep position or until one makes a mistake and allows the other to either get away for a new merge or get the top position.
Rolling scissors are initiated most of the time on a merge or against a con coming DOWN on your six and at similar air speed. You would pull up and roll over ( tight barrel roll) and watch the con pass under you as your canopy is pointed to the ground. The con then pulls up and rolls over the same way you did. This continues over and over until one gets the overshoot and the shot. The rolling scissor is conducted in a "pull up roll over" fashion. It is a type of continious barrel roll with both cons rolling around each other. During the barrel rolls you are trying to make yours tighter and to start the roll over the top before he turns up at the bottom. IT is the same concept as the flat scissor except it is dont while rolling over and NOT in a flat turn fashion. Further the "path" this fight takes is horizontal to the ground and not UP.
3. Verticle rolling scissor:
This is the least common type performed in the game. This is really a jet maneuver but can be done in ww2 planes. The way we do it in here is a variation of the rolling scissor. The type will normally only go for 3 mabey 4 scissors before it turns into a true rolling scissor.
This type is normally initiated by a con attempting to rope or by a con who blows a high speed pass and turns too early at the top. Or it can be intiated on purpose in a good climbing plane.
There are two variations to this
The first variation:
The defender will go strait verticle and stall turn 180 deg at the top BEFORE the bogey get to guns. Defender goes strait down and then pulling up (now going back the way you came up hence the 180 turn). Bogey turns down. while diving strait down the defender rolls over 180 deg on the way down and pulls back into the bogey going strait verticle. For the bogey to get guns he must also reverse 180 and pull up to follow. IF the defender has made the correct "early" turn at the top and at the bottom..... on the second turn at the top the defender should be coming down on the bogey with a front quater shot. IF he misses the move is repeated. If this is viewed on film the the two planes make big looping circles up and down. The fight is conducted in a verticle fashion without covering much distance horizontally across the ground. Again it is really a series of loops with both planes looping back to each other continuosly.
The second variation:
This variation is intiated on the "merge" and is normally looked at as a "rope" to start with. This will only last a max of 3 turns before one will win. The merge happens. Both pull hard into each other putting lift vector on each other. Comes the shot for either. Both again pull up and roll for a shot. And a third time. This is all done going strait up. When one plane stalls out the one on the bottom is primed for a shot. IF no shot hits then the scissor starts again STILL IN THE VERTICLE but going strait down this time. If no shot is made by the time the deck come up then it will transverse into a "rolling scissor".
Both of these variations transverse to rolling scissors very rapidly.
I would also mention that anytime you find yourself coming to a merge over and over after looping or oblique turning back into each other...YOUR IN A ROLLING SCISSOR. If you recognize this it is a simple matter of making early turns in the vert. This is the same thing as getting out of sync in flat scissors. It is just happening in the verticle instead of flat.
I have posted a link to an AH film that show the classic "rolling scissor". Be sure to watch it in the "fixed" view with trails and it is very clear what is happening. Then watch it with the pilot views from the cockpit.
http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/training/rolling_scissor_film2_0001.ahf (http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/training/rolling_scissor_film2_0001.ahf)
Agent360
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:aok Thanks.
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Here's two films that I like. Both are against violater, and are 4 and 5 minutes long and basically all rolling scissors. Watch flap and throttle (as you might see, I like to sit on my flaps longer then him).
http://www.mediafire.com/?wq59dmi9mhf
http://www.mediafire.com/?nnxhymm3yye
donkey
Fun fights violater!
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There's also a fourth type of rolling scissors. It's called a defensive spiral. It's a vertical rolling scissors in a dive. Very rare in game but very fun to fly.
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Not saying, like i would know anything about flying this game... but this is how i see it when i try it (not to get shot)
I tend to use the defensive spiral quite a lot, but usually the guy behind me is too good to be fooled with it.
For me, it's something to use when all else doesn't seem to be option.
CO-E con behind, lets say a spit16 or N1K, they can maneuver that gun platform too well for me to expose too much wings for them, so thats when i usually try to evade by going nose low and then spiral.
If it works, i usually try to go vertical and start rolling scissors.
Anyway, if he shoots any good, i'm dead :D
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Spatula put his clip up also way back when. The a-20 is one of the few planes I can initiate a "rolling scissor fight" with as an offensive move. The problem is that in the end it relies on getting slower then the con and once you see it a few times guys learn to appear to "accept" it but then transition to a climbing spiral type of fight.
I'd recommend focusing on variation in AoA vs "vertical alignment"....you want either an ascending or decending rolling scissor based on what gives you the edge vs the other guy. If you handle high AoA better take it up, if you can scrub E better take it down (just my opinion)...
Heres the link to spatula's film of the fight (hope its still up)...
Best thing to to fly a few with the other guy fiming so you can see what your rolling scissor looks like to him...
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/taurineman/spat_humble.zip (http://www.my2cents.co.nz/taurineman/spat_humble.zip)
try this :)
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=spat_humble.zip
lookin back at it, i never really attempted to commit to the rolling scissors properly, instead preferring to keep my speed up so i had options. Its also an example of the faster aircraft dictating the terms of engagement.
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Not saying, like i would know anything about flying this game... but this is how i see it when i try it (not to get shot)
I tend to use the defensive spiral quite a lot, but usually the guy behind me is too good to be fooled with it.
For me, it's something to use when all else doesn't seem to be option.
CO-E con behind, lets say a spit16 or N1K, they can maneuver that gun platform too well for me to expose too much wings for them, so thats when i usually try to evade by going nose low and then spiral.
If it works, i usually try to go vertical and start rolling scissors.
Anyway, if he shoots any good, i'm dead :D
OK, I kind of lied. You do see 190's try it all the time except that they are usually "dancing by themselves" out in front of you while you shoot them down. It's not a well choreographed manouver like it is whan you're "dancing cheek to cheek" :D
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here are two short films A20 vs f6f 2 sepret fights. both good examples of rolling scissors
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround1.flv
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround2.flv
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That sounds more like a rope to me. Rolling scissors are quite different. If you see me online uptown I will duel you a few time and we can work on it. I use the move quite a bit.
Its not a rope, its just a fight upwards, both of them have the same speeds, its just the one that can hold there nose higher than the other guy, untill he or you stall.
When you go into the first merge, you do the usual loop or whatever it is that you do. When you come out of the loop, you usually are pointing at each other, thats when you try and do a second loop, but you do not have enough airspeed, so you do a climbing turn. Again, you come around and you see that you guys are looking right at eachother, and again you do a climbing turn, just in the opposite direction that you started on the first turn. Also, you should have pretty much al of you flaps extended because yo have absolutly have no airspeed. this usually continues untill you cannot get that climb advantage and one of you has to do a flat turn and thats when you usually gain the advantage.
E management is the key while tring to do a scissor with someone.
<S>
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BTW Bosco, love your avitar. :aok
[EDIT] Well, OK... love might be a little strong... like.
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I tryed it several times in the MA this weekend but couldn't get anyone to follow me up :frown: I guess alot think it's a rope because after a second or 2 they'd turn back giving me a easy shot most of the time. I reckon a kill is a kill, but............
Thanks for all the great films. :salute
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I tryed it several times in the MA this weekend but couldn't get anyone to follow me up :frown: I guess alot think it's a rope because after a second or 2 they'd turn back giving me a easy shot most of the time. I reckon a kill is a kill, but............
Thanks for all the great films. :salute
Getting into rolling scissors is part of it. If u pull an obvious rope or a strong break turn then the target will just break off.
The trick is to draw them in close...inside 600...go to a high g turn...enough to still bait them....then just pull up and roll over. You are now in scissors.
If they kinda go up for the top or extend keep the turn opposite of them and come back. Keep the turning up. Use the remergeto start scissors again.
Takes practice but if you really think about it....almost every fight you have will involve scissors...you just dont't see it because it involves seperation. You can be in scissors with a target 1k out.
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BTW Bosco, love your avitar. :aok
[EDIT] Well, OK... love might be a little strong... like.
lol yea I like it to. I'll send you a PM on were I found it.
<S>
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Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg
A quick question about this film: could the pilot not have rolled his wings further to the left, for example at 1:41, and then pulled back in order to get his nose pointed at where his opponent would be shortly afterwards? If not, why?
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Yossarian
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If not, why?
Absolute limit. It would stall.
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if you notice the plane was in stall most of the time...the shaking
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A quick question about this film: could the pilot not have rolled his wings further to the left, for example at 1:41, and then pulled back in order to get his nose pointed at where his opponent would be shortly afterwards? If not, why?
<S>
Yossarian
Absolute limit. It would stall.
if you notice the plane was in stall most of the time...the shaking
everyone thinks differently about this, but you can be right on the edge of the stall and be buffeting yet still maintain control......so what this means is you are "Riding The Edge of the Stall"........
some people also listen to the Stall Horn sound, it begins and is very faint/low volume the more you pull into the stall the louder it gets... I try to stay close to medium volume and under when I am in a "Close In KNIFE fight".....kind of like the linked film Bighorn/barbarossa/( aka Maha ROFL ) posted above......
there is a saying/quote.....that I hold very close in my strong opinionated ACM beliefs...
"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner
or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor
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useful discussion and films, ty :aok
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Bighorn/barbarossa/( aka Maha ROFL )
:noid
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:noid
:noid
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:noid
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Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
and here is how it looks like in real life
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related
but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.
Yenny
Two much more recent films on the front page of furballers.com, both duels, both having lengthy rolling scissors (spit5 and 109g2).
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Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
and here is how it looks like in real life
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related
but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.
Yenny
it looked in those films almost as if he was pulling up into a loop, then kicking rudder at the top when he was inverted? and letting his nose drop to come back under and hopefully behind ya?
just askin as i've never understood what rolling scissors is or how to do it......
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I use rudder at the top of the scissor in most cases to help flip the plane around. When I'm in one of the long rolling scissors fights, on the edge of a stall the entire time I like the let the nose simply fall into place, rather than horsing it around.
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I dunno how to explain it =/ I just know how to perform it. I can recognize if I am losing in the rolling scissor and break it off to pull another manuever. Or if I am winning I can stay in it.
Here's a film between f4ujunky and me fightin in a KOTH. It's a 10 min fight, breaking in and out of rolling scissors, lag rolls, reversals. Shows varies type of scissors and other low speed tnb manuevers.
http://files.filefront.com/Koth+v+Junkyahf/;10828720;/fileinfo.html
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here are two short films A20 vs f6f 2 sepret fights. both good examples of rolling scissors
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround1.flv
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround2.flv
:cry
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Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.
Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.
I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
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Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.
Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.
I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
Gold.
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Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.
Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.
I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
THIS is actually the most clearly i've read it explained....and the description seems to match what i was seeing in the film.........although the bogy looked like he ws almost stalled at the top there, and slamming full rudder to get his turn in as fast as possible.......
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That's not a rolling scissors either. A rolling scissors is designed to allow a faster moving plane to remain behind the 3/9 line of a slower moving plane without losing speed or energy. You do this basically by barrel rolling to extend the horizontal and vertical elements of your flight path thereby increasing distance travelled while maintaining the flight path itself.
The fun in a rolling scissors starts when both guys are doing the same thing around each other for the same reason.
like the bighorn domin film :rofl
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Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing........
I hate to split hairs here but the above quote is slightly incorrect.
A "yo-yo" is a maneuver designed to PREVENT an overshoot when coming in on a bandit who is slower than you. This is OFFENSIVE.
A "scissor" is a maneuver designed to CREATE an overshoot against a bandit on your six....for example after a bandit Yo-Yo's onto your six. This is DEFENSIVE
One may counter either a High or Low yo-yo with a roll away or split s. However if one employs a yo-yo then one has energy. A yo-yo is designed to keep your forward speed and energy without sacrificing speed in a high g black out pull for a gun solution.
So it wouldnt make sense to follow into the counter move. It would be best to use your energy to climb away and reset your angle off tail to the bandit for another "high sides" attack or bug out.
A "high speed yo-yo" is the one I am describing (verses the low speed yo-yo which is another matter). One may continue a series of these if one missed the first gun pass. This is typically done against a bandit in a much slower plane such as the SBD, stuka, or perhaps a bomber. Using the high speed yo-yo against an equal plane will result in only one pass before the bandit becomes aware of your position and counters. And being in an equal speed plane there are many other options to employ here besides scissors especially if the attacker bothces the yo-yo attack.
The scissors are a stricly defensive maneuver because if you are trying to scissor then the bandit is on your six.
We must distinquish between OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE maneuvers. If you go from an OFFENSIVE maneuver into being DEFENSIVE then you did something wrong.
Therefor if one employs a yo-yo against a bandit then one should stay OFFENSIVE.
However, if one chosses to stay engaged and is countered by a barrel roll or roll away this will progress to scissors with both planes being equal in energy. The defensive plane (the one in front) will emply a scissor to KEEP speed while flying a forward velocity vector. The offensive plane ( the one in back) will be going for a gun solution and attempt to stay behind the defensive plane.
I must stress that scissors are not a series of yo-yo's. A yo-yo is kind of arcing wingover while KEEPING speed (wingover's typically involve LOOSING speed). A yo-yo is one time maneuver initiated to get closure for a low G gun solution against a slower moving bandit than yourself without overshooting into his guns. However, one can employ a series of smaller high yo-yo's against a "turning" bandit who continues a flat turn. Providing the attacker can maintain a speed advantage over the bandit. IF not then this will progress to scissors if the bandit can make the proper counter defensive moves.
Scissors involve a series of flat turns or barrel rolls which are not in any way related to a yo-yo.
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*I hate to split hairs here but the above quote is slightly incorrect.
*A "yo-yo" is a maneuver designed to PREVENT an overshoot when coming in on a bandit who is slower than you. This is OFFENSIVE.
*A "scissor" is a maneuver designed to CREATE an overshoot against a bandit on your six....for example after a bandit Yo-Yo's onto your six. This is DEFENSIVE
<snip>
*Scissors involve a series of flat turns or barrel rolls which are not in any way related to a yo-yo.
This sounds correct, This is "GOLD"
the original "Mighty01"
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This sounds correct, This is "GOLD"
the original "Mighty01"
THENNNNN I'M BACKL TO BEING CONFUSED?
the films that were said to be a rollign scissors fight, it looked VERY VERY much like the plane was rolling up above, then while inverted, and looking like it was bordering on stall, it looked like he was kicking hard rudder in to ring the nose back around? it didn't look like he was barrel rolling.
thanks.......
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Sieries of yo-yos=fight circles over same area. Sieries of barrel rolls=fight moves down range.
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barrel roll and rolling scissor is similiar yet very different ! s1 explain plz I dunno how to =/
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After doing some more reading, your are right that we are executing barrel rolls. Sorry for the confusion that I might have created for that.
As far as scissors ...
Scissors:
"The scissors is the natural outcome of a successful break which has forced the attacker to overshoot. It consists of a series of reversals to get behind the attacker by forcing him out in front."
Scissors is an "outcome" ... of a defensive move ... once it is initiated, both are trying to get behind each other so it becomes both defensive and offensive at the same time.
Any rolling scissors that I have been involved in seems that both of us are trying to spoil a guns solution (defensive) and at the same time, trying to gain position behind the other guy and not overshoot him (offensive).
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Yo-yo is a heading reversal, or close to it. Barrel roll result in exiting each revolution at the same general heading as started with.
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Yo-yo is a heading reversal, or close to it. Barrel roll result in exiting each revolution at the same general heading as started with.
but//////////
what is a rolling scissors then?
cap is sooooooo confused now....................
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but//////////
what is a rolling scissors then?
cap is sooooooo confused now....................
Go here CAP1 ... http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx
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Go here CAP1 ... http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx
thank ya sir.....cool page too...
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what is a rolling scissors then?
Series of asymmetrical barrel rolls or if you want to break it further, a series of diving and climbing turns. It looks like corkscrew pattern.
Bonus answer: http://olfablades.stores.yahoo.net/j102b-12.html
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Here's the image with trail on:
(http://sierra-host.net/images/rollingscissors.jpg)
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Bonus answer: http://olfablades.stores.yahoo.net/j102b-12.html
:rofl
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Bighorn's post above show is perfectly. This IS a rolling scissor. You can see that easily by looking at the fight in the horizontal plane. In fact if you look at it from any angle (meaning rotating around the center) it will look the same.
IF this were an image of a FLAT scissor and you looked at it from the same angle you would see two almost strait lines like railroad tracks doing zig zagging. IF you looked at it from above down it would look like the image above.
You will notice there are no yo-yo's in the image. You can distinguish this by the inverted roll at the top.
A series of yo-yo's can be employed in a continued "high sides attack" without any heading reversal against a strait flying target such as a bomber. I disagree that a yo-yo is a "kind of heading reversal". I understand the simplistic explanation but that is confusing to people who don't understand basics.
Heading reversals are defined by a change in direction of at least 90 degrees. If it is less than 90 degrees it's a turn. Further a heading reversal is not the same as a "turn". A turn is a turn. A heading reversal is involves a vertical line (up or down) and aileron roll in such a mannor to immediatly change direction that could not otherwise be done without a time and energy consuming turn. Turns and heading reversals are as different as yo-yo's and scissors.
I hear the term "yo-yo" used very loosly all the time in all the arena's as a way to say what happend. I have seen it described as a turn, immel, split s, wingover, stall turn, chandell and others. Often when in a "fluid" turning fight all these maneuvers tend to blend together in funky ways and seem like something else.
I think it is important to understand specific maneuvers as the appear on there own. One has to know how each one is performed on its own to fully understand how the interact with each other. If you can't visualize in a 3 dimensional space what a singular maneuver is theres now way one can figure out how they connect together.
Aerobatics maneuvers (ABM) and air combat maneuvers (ACM) are very different yet almost the same in many ways. One can look at ABM as a kind of KATA as permormed in martial arts as a training exercise with the intent on perfoming them as perfectly as possible without having to defend yourself against an attack. ACM would be the use of the individual KATA moves applied against an attacker in a free style way with the intent on killing the opponent.
I think it will help some if the information on these three links are studied. They discuss aerobatic maneuvers. The goal in ABM is to string these together as a sort of KATA to make a show. I think it would help to attempt to perform some of them in the TA or DA. This helps one understand how the plane is moving in 3 dimensional space and to distinquish between specific maneuvers. Some of them have combat usefullness some don't.
International Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html (http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html)
From answers...com
http://www.answers.com/topic/aerobatic-maneuver (http://www.answers.com/topic/aerobatic-maneuver)
This site is very interesting as it shows the full show as performed by the famous Aerobatic pilot Diana Britten. Take a look her show diagram. If one can begin to plan like this in your head as you fight it becomes much easier to " think ahead" and decide what YOU ARE GOING TO DO instead of being dictated by the attacker.
http://www.dianabritten.com/displays.html (http://www.dianabritten.com/displays.html)
Respectfully
Agent360
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Both. Usually, with about equal skill pilots, rolling scissors quickly deteriorate into very slow one, since it is used as defensive maneuver and main purpose is to make other guy overshoot (both will try to go slower than other). That means you'll have to cut throttle and drop flaps when on top and bottoms (and in between if necessary) and going full throttle on the way up.
Things can vary, depending on the planes, of course. Good example would be here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,211375.0.html , F4u vs Ki-84 in slow rolling scissors, where ki-84 had to travel larger corkscrew pattern due to higher speeds (engine power), whilst f4u (with full flaps) could turn tighter. Ultimately, f4u got behind ki-84, but then ki-84 broke the scissors and went into vertical where f4u couldn't quite follow.
here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf
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here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf
Thank you, I've been wanting to see this.
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here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf
Good film TC.
Who was maha?
Going through some old film...
http://www.furballers.com/mahadomin.zip (http://www.furballers.com/mahadomin.zip)
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Just to clarify some of the points made earlier in this thread.
Firstly, let's get the terminology squared away. The maneuvers being discussed in this thread are Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM), and not aerobatic maneuvers. In the context of an air-to-air engagement, BFM is always flown with respect to an adversary aircraft. However, it is important to understand that all types of fighter maneuvering is ultimately BFM. In the military fighter training schools, both initial and advanced, BFM is taught first. Later, when the student is introduced to ground attack, he is taught how air-to-ground is really just BFM against a fixed target on the ground. Even when a pilot is rejoining on his flight, he is solving BFM problems. Ultimately, all fighter flying is just a matter of getting your airplane pointed in the right direction, with the right speed, at the right time, and with enough maneuvering room to complete the maneuver.
All aircraft can roll, turn, and accelerate. BFM is a blend of these three basic maneuvers to gain an energy and/or positional advantage on another aircraft. The purpose of gaining this advantage is to be able to fire a weapon at the adversary aircraft. The type of weapon and its characteristics will determine how much BFM is needed to employ it.
A significant point to always remember about BFM is that it is not an exact series of maneuvers flown to reach a specific conclusion. Instead, BFM is a combination of complimentary maneuvers that blend into each other, and which require continual reassessment to ensure the desired objective is met. When the pilot begins a BFM maneuver, he also begins a process of observation, prediction, and correction. He first observes the position of his target. He then analyzes target motion to predict where the target’s maneuvering will take it, and finally the pilot will correct his own flight path as necessary to maintain his advantage. That's why BFM is always flown relative to an adversary aircraft. It is important to distinguish between that and aerobatic maneuvers that are flown without an adversary aircraft, and as such, have little or nothing to do with air combat.
The Basic Fighter Maneuvers being discussed are the rolling scissors and the yo-yo maneuvers. Unfortunately, any attempt to describe them in words alone will often create some confusion or misunderstanding. So the diagrams below help to clarify what is happening in the high yo-yo, and then the rolling scissors.
The High Speed Yo-Yo is intended primarily to be used in low aspect and angle off situations where you have excessive closure. It is also useful in solving some moderately high aspect situations where you do not have the lateral turning room to make the corner. In both instances, you are in danger of losing your nose/tail separation. The solution is to rotate your lift vector and maneuver out of the plane of motion of the target. Your objective is to reduce your overtake by increasing the distance you fly relative to the target. You perform the high yo-yo by rolling to point your lift vector behind the target. Then you pull hard to raise your nose out of his plane of motion, the amount that you raise your nose is directly related to how much overtake or aspect you are trying to control. You will know when you have your nose high enough when you see the target starting to move away from you. At this point, you will be high above his plane of turn and close to his six o’clock. Make an unloaded roll to point your lift vector back to a position of lead pursuit, and then pull down into the target.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Hyoyo.jpg)
Common errors in performing the high yo-yo include:
- starting the maneuver too late which results in you overshooting the target
- starting the maneuver too early or yo-yoing too high which allows the target to separate
- burying the nose in your pull down
Your objective is to descend back into the target’s plane of motion with reduced closure. From that position, you should finish your attack.
The rolling scissors shown below often results from a close-in vertical overshoot, or may be a natural progression of the flat or low speed scissors. As the name implies, this type of scissors involves a series of barrel rolls with the axis of the roll in the direction of motion. The rolling scissors is a more efficient defensive manoeuvre than the horizontal scissors due to the utilisation of the three-dimensional maneuver (barrel roll). The rolling scissors may be used in nearly all situations where a horizontal scissors could be used, except when the defender does not have enough speed to roll over the top. It is most effective when the attacker overshoots the defender with a high angle-off below his flight path.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Barrel-Roll2.jpg)
You continue to barrel roll, placing your lift vector on or slightly aft of the bandit. Your goal is to execute the rolling scissors as shown and explained in the diagram above and to capitalize on any mistake the bandit makes. To stay offensive in a rolling scissors, you use the three-dimensional environment to control your energy effectively by:
- Proper lift vector placement
- Pulling to the edge of the stall
- Trading airspeed for altitude to reduce your forward vector
In all this, you are trying to stay behind the bandit. A key factor in winning the rolling scissors is to understand that it is the steepness of your climbs and dives (the helix angle of your flight path) that determines your horizontal movement more than your absolute speed.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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A sieries of yo-yo's going to the same side (left or right), will circle around the same geographic ground location. A series of barrel rolls, whether all left, all right, or alternating moves down range. That's what I was trying to say to point out a fundamental difference between the two, while typing on a cell phone number pad! (see this header icon --->(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Themes/camo/images/post/wireless.gif)).
Aerobatics are of limited use in BFM. Different maneuvers have properties, either positional or angular, or both that may be useful in solving a BFM problem. If one is not able to duplicate those desired properties by performing a maneuver absent an opponent, then it will be useless to employ in BFM.
When maneuvers are applied to BFM as opposed to aerobatics, they are constantly modified in consideration of the bogie. The result is that you can take a number of maneuvers with similar components, and in the end find that they may look like one another. Either from the cockpit point of view, or from a after action flight path point of view. Which one of those maneuvers was performed? In practical application of BFM it comes down to "What BFM parameters am I trying to solve?", over "What did it look like when it was all said and done?".
With a high yo yo, you have primarily a separation problem, but it is assumed to be verses a maneuvering opponent. So there is also an angle off target issue that a properly employed high yo yo will automatically reduce, and typically the risk of a flight path overshoot that factors into the decision making process. Those are all standard components of the BFM problem that a high yo yo is typically employed to address.
By removing the maneuvering bogie, rather than clearifying things, you are muddying the waters. I have no problem with the description of something else with a completely different set of BFM parameter objectives (maneuver to increase angle off, avoid fuselage alignment) being described as a "high yo yo" when it does look the same. However if one just drops the BFM problem/solution factor, and only defines a fundamental BFM with what it looks like, that only adds to confusion.
LOL, I see Badboy just posted while I was previewing my post.
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Great post by Badboy and Murdr :salute
All the components of BFM do exist in aerobatic maneuvers. I did state that aerial maneuvers were a type of KATA and ".....without having to defend yourself against an attack....."
From wikipedia:
"Kata (型 or 形, literally: "form"?) is a Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs."
And
"In Japanese martial arts practice, kata is often seen as an essential partner to randori training with one complementing the other"
And
"Randori (乱取り, Randori?) is a term used in Japanese martial arts to describe free-style practice or sparring, sometimes with multiple attackers. The term literally means "chaos taking" or "grasping freedom," implying a freedom from the structured practice of kata."
I submit that learning an aerial kata will be of great help to all levels of skill. Further, practicing traditional aerobatic maneuvers "teach" students the basic elements of controlling the airplane in three dimensional space under maximum performance.
Performing an aerobatic routine is a form of KATA and RANDORI is performing the KATA as freestyle against an attacker.
Therefore if one practices by themselves even if one is doing BFM they are in fact performing aerobatic maneuvers becuase they are not doing so against an attacker.
If aerobatic maneuvers are practiced with an opponent then they are BFM ( ie "randori").
I mention and show the links on aerobatic maneuvers for the purpose suggesting that as a training aid that some try to perform them. The "aid" or benifit of this are:
1 Control of the airplane at maximum performance
2 Awarness of the airplanes movent and position as referenced to a fixed point or points on the ground.
3 Discipline of throttle and control surfaces.
I do not suggest that aerial maneuvers for show will teach you how to "kill an opponent" only help one develop basic skill in controlling and maneuvering an airplane at maximum performance.
I have practiced my own ACM KATA and found it to be very helpful. For example a term used in aerial maneuvers is "line". The "line" is a term used to describe a strait verticle path as reference to the ground. For example during a dogfight I now think in terms of drawing a "line" in reference to the bandit.
As it turns out I find that I am simply performing basic and advanced aerial maneuvers as described in those links anyway. If one studies the many types of aerial maneuvers it is easy to see the similarity to BFM. In fact many are the same. The only difference is they are performed in reference to a fixed position on the ground vs a moving point in the air.
Perhaps I have a different idea of how to approach training in terms of learning ACM.
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I hope I didn't imply that aerobatics were not worthy of practice. They are, for the reasons Agent stated, and also as I said, one should be able to perform the maneuver correctly aerobaticly if they wish to apply adaptations of them to BFM problems. A good example is the Immelman. With twisty sticks newer players tend to *think* they are doing one when actually they are not aware that they are throwing their flight path, and lift vector off with inadvertant rudder, and do not know to keep an eye on the horizon to spot the problem. Hence I made a training film to help out with that issue.