Author Topic: rolling scissors  (Read 5975 times)

Offline evenhaim

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2008, 10:15:11 PM »
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Offline Captfish

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Offline Domin

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2008, 10:37:13 AM »
Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI

and here is how it looks like in real life

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related

but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.

Yenny

Two much more recent films on the front page of furballers.com, both duels, both having lengthy rolling scissors (spit5 and 109g2).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:54:45 AM by Domin »

Offline CAP1

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2008, 12:15:30 PM »
Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI

and here is how it looks like in real life

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related

but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.

Yenny

it looked in those films almost as if he was pulling up into a loop, then kicking rudder at the top when he was inverted? and letting his nose drop to come back under and hopefully behind ya?

just askin as i've never understood what rolling scissors is or how to do it......
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Offline jerkins

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2008, 03:08:47 PM »
I use rudder at the top of the scissor in most cases to help flip the plane around.  When I'm in one of the long rolling scissors fights, on the edge of a stall the entire time I like the let the nose simply fall into place, rather than horsing it around.
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Offline Yenny

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2008, 05:27:59 PM »
I dunno how to explain it =/ I just know how to perform it. I can recognize if I am losing in the rolling scissor and break it off to pull another manuever. Or if I am winning I can stay in it.

Here's a film between f4ujunky and me fightin in a KOTH. It's a 10 min fight, breaking in and out of rolling scissors, lag rolls, reversals. Shows varies type of scissors and other low speed tnb manuevers.

http://files.filefront.com/Koth+v+Junkyahf/;10828720;/fileinfo.html

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Offline SlapShot

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Offline SlapShot

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2008, 12:49:42 PM »
Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.

Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.

I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
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Offline Domin

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2008, 02:40:22 PM »
Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.

Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.

I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2008, 03:03:52 PM »
Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing.

Each time you go up, you are trying to slow down to get behind the other guy, that is basically what a hi-yoyo is trying to accomplish. The other guy sees this, and as you come down on him, he goes vertical to spoil a possible guns solution and he then tries to slow down and get behind you.

I don't think that I have ever initiated one on purpose ... it just happens, and when it happens ... I love it. Those are some of the best fights that one can get into. You are really riding the "edge" when you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
THIS is actually the most clearly i've read it explained....and the description seems to match what i was seeing in the film.........although the bogy looked like he ws almost stalled at the top there, and slamming full rudder to get his turn in as fast as possible.......
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Offline Tr1gg22

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2008, 05:55:39 PM »
That's not a rolling scissors either.  A rolling scissors is designed to allow a faster moving plane to remain behind the 3/9 line of a slower moving plane without losing speed or energy.  You do this basically by barrel rolling to extend the horizontal and vertical elements of your flight path thereby increasing distance travelled while maintaining the flight path itself.

The fun in a rolling scissors starts when both guys are doing the same thing around each other for the same reason.
like the bighorn domin film :rofl
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Offline Agent360

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2008, 06:44:06 PM »
Rolling scissors is basically 2 planes doing hi-yoyos to try an prevent an overshoot trying to get behind the opponent ... while the opponent is doing the same thing........

I hate to split hairs here but the above quote is slightly incorrect.

A "yo-yo" is a maneuver designed to PREVENT an overshoot when coming in on a bandit who is slower than you. This is OFFENSIVE.

A "scissor" is a maneuver designed to CREATE an overshoot against a bandit on your six....for example after a bandit Yo-Yo's onto your six. This is  DEFENSIVE

One may counter either a High or Low yo-yo with a roll away or split s. However if one employs a yo-yo then one has energy. A yo-yo is designed to keep your forward speed and energy without sacrificing speed in a high g black out pull for a gun solution.

So it wouldnt make sense to follow into the counter move. It would be best to use your energy to climb away and reset your angle off tail to the bandit for another "high sides" attack or bug out.

A "high speed yo-yo" is the one I am describing (verses the low speed yo-yo which is another matter). One may continue a series of these if one missed the first gun pass. This is typically done against a bandit in a much slower plane such as the SBD, stuka, or perhaps a bomber. Using the high speed yo-yo against an equal plane will result in only one pass before the bandit becomes aware of your position and counters. And being in an equal speed plane there are many other options to employ here besides scissors especially if the attacker bothces the yo-yo attack.

The scissors are a stricly defensive maneuver because if you are trying to scissor then the bandit is on your six.

We must distinquish between OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE maneuvers. If you go from an OFFENSIVE maneuver into being DEFENSIVE then you did something wrong.

Therefor if one employs a yo-yo against a bandit then one should stay OFFENSIVE.

However, if one chosses to stay engaged and is countered by a barrel roll or roll away this will progress to scissors with both planes being equal in energy. The defensive plane (the one in front) will emply a scissor to KEEP speed while flying a forward velocity vector. The offensive plane ( the one in back) will be going for a gun solution and attempt to stay behind the defensive plane.

I must stress that scissors are not a series of yo-yo's. A yo-yo is kind of arcing wingover while KEEPING speed (wingover's typically involve LOOSING speed). A yo-yo is one time maneuver initiated to get closure for a low G gun solution against a slower moving bandit than yourself without overshooting into his guns. However, one can employ a series of smaller high yo-yo's against a "turning" bandit who continues a flat turn. Providing the attacker can maintain a speed advantage over the bandit. IF not then this will progress to scissors if the bandit can make the proper counter defensive moves.

Scissors involve a series of flat turns or barrel rolls which are not in any way related to a yo-yo.






Offline Mighty01

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2008, 08:57:34 PM »
*I hate to split hairs here but the above quote is slightly incorrect.

*A "yo-yo" is a maneuver designed to PREVENT an overshoot when coming in on a bandit who is slower than you. This is OFFENSIVE.

*A "scissor" is a maneuver designed to CREATE an overshoot against a bandit on your six....for example after a bandit Yo-Yo's onto your six. This is  DEFENSIVE

<snip>

*Scissors involve a series of flat turns or barrel rolls which are not in any way related to a yo-yo.


This sounds correct,  This is "GOLD"


the  original "Mighty01"

Offline CAP1

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2008, 11:54:56 AM »

This sounds correct,  This is "GOLD"


the  original "Mighty01"

THENNNNN I'M BACKL TO BEING CONFUSED?

the films that were said to be a rollign scissors fight, it looked VERY VERY much like the plane was rolling up above, then while inverted, and looking like it was bordering on stall, it looked like he was kicking hard rudder in to ring the nose back around? it didn't look like he was barrel rolling.

thanks.......
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Offline Murdr

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2008, 12:06:47 PM »
Sieries of yo-yos=fight circles over same area.  Sieries of barrel rolls=fight moves down range.