Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: DaveJ on June 12, 2008, 03:33:46 PM
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Lately I've realized that im not using rudder all that much in my 38, and that perhaps im losing some turnfights in it because I don't use it correctly, or at all.
I'm fine with the BnZ use of rudder (leading shots, bleeding airspeed, etc), but I can't quite figure out when to use it in a turnfight. At low stall speed, I've found that it sometimes brings me to the edge of snap rolling and augering. I've also seen people turn their plane on a dime at the top of a rolling scissors with rudder (I think), and I'd like to figure out how to do that.
Perhaps a problem is that I use a mouse and keyboard for all my controls. I used the Q and W for flaps, and A and D for rudder. I also need to use the keyboard numberpad for viewing my enemy, so I cant use rudder and look at the time same time. I have to be doing one or the other because my right hand is on the mouse controling the plane.
But in general, please tell me when do you all use rudder in a turnfight ( what airspeed, position of you relative to the enemy, whether you use rudder with flaps, etc). Also, I'd like some input on whether I should stop using a mouse and try to use a joystick, though there are some good mouse pilots out there.
Thanks
Dave
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DaveJ,
You will never experience the full joy of succesfully mastering rudder control if your using a keyboard. I am sure you have heard it before but a 25 dollar twisty stick will improve your skill far faster than anything else.
Strip
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The P38 doesn't really need too much rudder due to it's counter rotating props. Really, all you have to do is make sure your slip indicator stays centered (it's right underneath the gunsight).
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What Motherland said is true but....
There are many time in a fight were rudder can help you get a gun solution or keep you out of one.
Strip
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Mainly when maneuvering in a P-38, rudder is used to assist in starting a roll. Other than that, rudder input will mostly tend to upset the plane stability more than anything. I do dance the rudder to counter wing dips, but I also am using rudder pedals. To be that precise with a twist stick is difficult, and with keyboard is impossible.
Id highly suggest getting a cheap 4 axis flight stick. Trying to be as detailed as this question asks with a mouse, is like trying to do clockwork wearing mittens.
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What Motherland said is true but....
There are many time in a fight were rudder can help you get a gun solution or keep you out of one.
Strip
I don't fly the 38 much, but from what I remember it doesn't have enough rudder authority to spoil someones shot. Not as well as you could with say, a 109 or an F4U.
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DaveJ,
You will never experience the full joy of succesfully mastering rudder control if your using a keyboard. I am sure you have heard it before but a 25 dollar twisty stick will improve your skill far faster than anything else.
Strip
twisty stick is good......rudder pedals are better :D
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I got a couple good sticks in the squad that use the mouse, I'll throw a link to this thread in the squad forum and see if I can't get their attention.
I use pedals myself, not sure how and when I use them would work well if you're relying on the keyboard for your axis input, I would imagine you would have less precise control as a result.
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Alright, I'm now using a twisty stick that I had lying around the house.
It's been a big change, and it will take time to get used to. Sometimes I accidentally twist the rudder when I don't want to and that thorws off an easy shot, but other times the twist helps to get a last minute gun solution. I also noticed it helped me turn better, especially on a merge when I'm desperate to get on someone's 6.
I've been talking to Pawz about it and he says that he uses rudder "alot", so I'm going to see how successful I am with it in turnfights. It doesn't help that I still have much learning to do about flying the 38 properly. That's a whole different issue. :D
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There are certain situations where you have to be real careful with the rudder, one being turning at low speeds, hit the rudder at the wrong time and you'll spin it in with little warning.
Typically I use rudder to help get the nose over for a deflection shot, or to help start the roll, I'll kick the rudder in the direction I'm trying to go to help get the plane started and try and keep the ball in the middle.
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rudder yaw is the greatest axis known to man! You can use it or combine it with other control surfaces to do almost anything you like. From speed brake to gunnery essentials you must learn the plane you flying and its rudder intimately to succede. Many assume that the elevators and turning circle stats are the most important aspect of a turn fighter but the rudder of an aircraft and how each pilot chooses to use it is, in my mind at least, far more important.
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Using rudder is an awful important skill to acquire.
It's obviously important in order to fly "coordinated", but we also use it to purposely fly "uncoordinated" at times too. It can help minimize drag and conserve E, or can be used to maximize drag and "burn" E. I often use liberal amounts of rudder to tighten rolls in my F4U, especially when I'm coming over the top on my barrel rolls. I use it to tighten turns, or to delay my inboard wing from stalling. Used incorrectly or at the wrong times, rudder can send you to the tower via an opponents bullets or via the ground.
At first, my guess is you'll use it excessively or at inappropriate times, simply because you may accidently twist the stick and also because now it's easy to use. I had the same problem when I went to rudder pedals. I wanted to try out my "new toy", so I killed myself repeatedly by over-using it, hehe. It also took me a long time to develop enough skill with it to make the correct actions automatic.
I'd recommend you purposely use it in some basic manuevers, and don't worry about it too much in actual fights...yet. That will come with time as you become comfortable with its use.
Some basic things you can try-
1)Make sure you do not use Auto Takeoff. There's some pretty basic rudder practice involved with taking off. This is a "coordinated" use of rudder, so "Step on the ball". Watch the indicator, and apply rudder to keep the ball centered. If it goes right, apply right rudder.
2)Use a "slip" while landing. Use full rudder to one side, and aileron to direct your path onto the runway. You'll find your rate of descent increases, but airspeed doesn't, as long as you control it properly with elevator and throttle. Practice landing on the CV this way too. catching the wires even gives you an opportunity to be "precise" with your controls. A slip is an example of "uncoordinated" rudder use, exposing the side of the fuselage to the slipstream and increasing drag.
3) Try some "point rolls". Put your gunsight on a target on the horizon, and roll with aileron only. You'll see the sight actually travels or "draws" a circle on the horizon, and you'll probably exit the roll nose down to some extent.
Now try it like this. Put the sight on the horizon, and KEEP it there (stationary) as you roll. To do that, roll 90 degrees onto your RIGHT side, and stop the roll, holding the sight on the target with LEFT rudder. Now roll inverted, and hold on target without rudder, but with down elevator. Now go another 90 degrees onto your LEFT side, holding your nose up with RIGHT rudder. And now roll another 90 degrees to finish. That's a 4-point Roll. Try these rolls at different speeds, and with longer "pauses" at each point. Instead of rolling 90 degrees between points, you can instead roll 45 degrees, and make it an 8-point roll. Master that and you'll have more rudder skill than many in the game. Want a huge challenge? Try to fly a simple left-hand circle at a constant altitude, but do it while continuously rolling.
You may find Auto Combat Trim does some goofy things here, but that's a different lesson. Inverted flight is easier w/o the auto trim, at least in my opinion...
4)Spins, and spin recovery. Get up around 8-10K, and pull the throttle back. Use elevator to keep your nose up, and feed in rudder as you slow down. That should snap you into a spin. Now recover. Neutral aileron and rudder, down elevator, and then some rudder opposite of the spin. You're seeking a straight dive, and then to pull out. Pull out abruptly as soon as the spin stops. What happens? Now try it again, but let your speed build and pull out smoothly. Which works best? Master spins and recovery at different speeds, altitudes, and with throttle on or off. Try some different planes too. A great recipe for a spin is slow flight with some elevator and rudder. In other words, when you're in a turn fight. You'll spin while fighting, so master recovering, or even catching them before they start.
5) Use some rudder as you do barrel rolls. Try just a bit, and try quite a bit. See the different results. Also watch for different results at different speeds.
The more you can use rudder and make its use automatic, the better off you'll be. At first you'll need to "think about it" a lot, so do that in a controlled situation. Don't worry about it too much in combat situations. As you get more familiar with it, it will take care of itself, with little or no thought from you.
MtnMan
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I've been talking to Pawz about it and he says that he uses rudder "alot",
I'm the same way. My rudders get just about as much as a work out as my flaps do. In turn fights, I use them mostly to help with coordinated turns but as with all things, YMMV.
ack-ack
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Any of of you twin engine guys throttle the engines separately?I've messed around with it a bit and it works well, especially with rudders.
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I've found specific situations where differential throttle is a help, but outside of those cases no, I haven't found much use. Single engine maneuvers in the 38 suck a lot of E, the payoff has to be pretty big to make it worthwhile.
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I don't fly the 38 much, but from what I remember it doesn't have enough rudder authority to spoil someones shot. Not as well as you could with say, a 109 or an F4U.
P38 has two big engines and the rudders being directly behind those engines does add control. I use mouse and keyboard and use rudder quite frequently, I use rudder in the situations Murdr pointed out. Not to mention when aiming. I've found I can hardly hit anything unless it is flying straight when I don't have rudders.
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Not to mention when aiming. I've found I can hardly hit anything unless it is flying straight when I don't have rudders.
No kidding. Losing my rudder is all it takes to get me to RTB.
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Any of of you twin engine guys throttle the engines separately?
I've been doing it for about a week, it will help only minimally in a horizontal turn. It is best used over the top or to increase roll rate as a last resort (ie last ditch defense), it increases the risk of a snaproll causing departure issues. It is also good if you depart carrying a unusually large fuel/ord load, as it will allow nearly instant recovery.
Why am I doing it? Mostly because I want as real a P38 experience as AH can give me, but it has cost me a few fights in the past week as I am not at all used to either the controls or the new hat (view) positioning.
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Any of of you twin engine guys throttle the engines separately?I've messed around with it a bit and it works well, especially with rudders.
Using a dual throttle isn't going to give you an advantage over someone that isn't using them, all it will do is allow you to make some really sharp looking hammerheads and wingovers. I tried using a dual throttle some years back and after a couple of months went back to my Pro Throttle and as Delirium pointed out, it's a great immersion tool but nothing more than that. YMMV.
ack-ack
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Why am I doing it? Mostly because I want as real a P38 experience as AH can give me, but it has cost me a few fights in the past week as I am not at all used to either the controls or the new hat (view) positioning.
When you have one throttle cut back, make sure that you bring the other throttle down and then advance both throttles together to avoid any possible spins unless you're trying to recreate McGuire's crash.
ack-ack
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I flew p38 quite a bit,with keyboard and mouse. I just do really sudden moves with the rudder to roll inverted, and hit s right away to center it and get ready for my next rolling move.
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I caught a rope on film in the MA a few months ago during a 10 kill run where I reversed out of the vertical with one engine throttled back...I'll post a link when I can figure out where the heck I posted it at.
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When using a twisty stick for rudders, I found that it helped me a lot to set up a large deadband for the rudder so that I stopped inadvertently getting rudder inputs. It helped my gunnery significantly.
Once I got my pedals I also had to put in a small deadband for the same reason.
It's a good idea (especially in practice) to periodically release the stick completely. You will be surprised how much body english you can be imparting to the plane without knowing it until you get the hang of it.
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While all you P-38 sticks have your attention here, I have a question but not about rudders... I'm planning on switching planes every tour, last month it was P-47, this its the F4U, and next month I'm planning on trying the P-38... my question is... how do you set your controls differently for two engine throttles instead of just one in the P-38? A special setup or do you just have both engines set to the same throttle control and use the keyboard if you want to use them differentially?
Thanks!
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Don't use a dual throttle myself, I've got both throttles mapped to my Pro Throttle.
ack-ack
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Davey, we are in the same squad, you can ask me, Tilla Sirloin anything and we can help you out as much as we can.
Anyways, when I'm in a turnfight, I use the rudder on a few occasions: when I need to do a quick turn left, then back right, that always helps. When I'm at the verge of falling off, 38s tend to dip their wing, like every other airplane in the game, I always use the rudder there to fight back the stall. When the 38 does stall in a vertical, it begins to spin; you can slow down the spin by using the rudder and aielorons.
Thats only the few occasions that I use the rudder.
<S>
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I have select engine functions mapped to HOTAS buttons.
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A special setup or do you just have both engines set to the same throttle control and use the keyboard if you want to use them differentially?
I have a dual throttle, but it is by no means a big advantage. In fact, for some one just starting out in a P38 it would probably be more of a detriment than anything else.
Don't worry about controlling both engines until you start really riding the edge in the thing.
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When the 38 does stall in a vertical, it begins to spin
<S>
If you're getting into a spin at in the vertical as you stall, you're doing something wrong.
ack-ack
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Yeah I'm not sure what exactly he means by spinning in a vert stall either. It's actually kinda hard to make a 38 spin the way other planes do.
About the only times I get into an uncontrolled spin is when not having enough energy to barrel roll or do a loop. Even then it usually only spins once then rights itself. Once it starts spinning I can hold it, and make it keep spinning for 2 or 3 more rotations before it rights itself. Even then it doesn't spin that fast.
The spin I do occasionally find myself in though is a flat spin. Even then Ii can't remember the last time I ended up in one in combat. Just while goofing around trying to do something I shouldn't be trying in the training room. And usually it's induced by me shutting throttling back one engine and over compensating for something else.
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I usually can only spin out the p38 by using too much rudder when coming over the top of a loop. As I'm coming down if I kick the rudder too hard it'll throw the AoA real far off sometimes resulting in a spin. I've gotten a much better feel for the p38 now and can avoid entering the spin.
I did enter enough spins to learn that killing your engines will help you get your nose down, popping flaps out will help sometimes too. I've also been able to enter such intense spins that there is no recovery possible.
The moral of this story is just keep at it and not only will you be able to get a feel for how to use your rudder, you'll know what the p38 doesn't want you to do too.
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i find myself geting the flast spin real easy by trying to go straight up with flaps out and it flops you over on your back and youll be in inverted flat spin. i can never get out of that one.
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If you're getting into a spin just by kicking full rudder at the top of a vertical maneuver, something is wrong with what you are doing. Kicking full rudders shouldn't put into you into an accelerated stall situation. However, pulling back on the stick all the way into your guts will get you into an accelerated stall and if that is the time you decide to use any rudder input, no matter how minor will most likely throw you into a spin.
Which goes to show that you have to make the P-38 spin, it is pretty hard to get it to do it itself.
ack-ack
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If you're getting into a spin just by kicking full rudder at the top of a vertical maneuver, something is wrong with what you are doing. Kicking full rudders shouldn't put into you into an accelerated stall situation. However, pulling back on the stick all the way into your guts will get you into an accelerated stall and if that is the time you decide to use any rudder input, no matter how minor will most likely throw you into a spin.
Which goes to show that you have to make the P-38 spin, it is pretty hard to get it to do it itself.
ack-ack
That is probably a more accurate description. I guess I'm giving full elevator pull and than rudder it into the spin. I usually only give that much rudder while slow coming off the top of a verticle maneuver.
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As I posted in another thread, I use approx 50% rudder, approx 70% aileron in the same direction with a little elevator to induce the snaproll. The elevator should be the last thing you apply and it dictates how fast/erratic you roll.
The trick is to apply just enough elevator to not stall too long or too fast, recovery becomes harder the longer/faster it is performed. Eventually, you'll know just how much you need and you'll out roll FWs and recover at the just the orientation to the bandit you wanted.
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As I posted in another thread, I use approx 50% rudder, approx 70% aileron in the same direction with a little elevator to induce the snaproll. The elevator should be the last thing you apply and it dictates how fast/erratic you roll.
The trick is to apply just enough elevator to not stall too long or too fast, recovery becomes harder the longer/faster it is performed. Eventually, you'll know just how much you need and you'll out roll FWs and recover at the just the orientation to the bandit you wanted.
Hmmmm.....thats very, very, very interesting. Explains some of the stuff Ive seen too. Will have to give that a try. Thanks very much! :salute
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I have a squad member who only uses a mouse..He is left handed so most sticks don't work for him.I am really amazed how good he can fly that way.. :rofl He has been doing it that way for a few years.I would recommend a stick myself. I have a ch fighterstick, saitek rudder pedals ,and a saitek throttle..Good luck :salute
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Tell your squadmate to check out Homeboy's site... he'll not only mod the stick and/or throttle for you, but he'll purchase it as well so you get the finished product.
Tell Homeboy that Delirium sent you.
http://snomhf.exofire.net/leftyHOTAS.html
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Tell your squadmate to check out Homeboy's site... he'll not only mod the stick and/or throttle for you, but he'll purchase it as well so you get the finished product.
Tell Homeboy that Delirium sent you.
http://snomhf.exofire.net/leftyHOTAS.html
You should offer the same with your Frankenstein Pro Throttle.
ack-ack
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Any recommended stick for flying the 38, or is just more of a personal preference for all of you?
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You should offer the same with your Frankenstein Pro Throttle.
I never even thought about my throttle being left or right handed, I guess it is. Not that I would ever get rid of my baby...
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/DeliriumP38Lightning/MVC-004F.jpg)
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Any recommended stick for flying the 38, or is just more of a personal preference for all of you?
I don't have a problem with any stick, its all personal preference. The one type of stick I don't recommend is twisty sticks (for rudder), you'll find yourself spinning, missing shots, and losing a bit of E here and there on accident because of it.
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I use a twisty stick but have the deadband and dampening very low for the rudder. That makes it a bit more unsensitive so I don't accidentally miss shots.
Perhaps I should get some rudder pedals though.
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you dont by chance use a microsoft sidewinder do you? I fully agree with Del that twisty sticks in general are a problem for smooth control, and being a lazy bum i never had pedals and used some terrible twisty contraptions. The sidewinder on the other hand is the closest thing you can get to pedal control in a twisty stick. the only decent thing microsoft ever made along with the flight sim series. (curses double broken xbox)
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you dont by chance use a microsoft sidewinder do you? I fully agree with Del that twisty sticks in general are a problem for smooth control, and being a lazy bum i never had pedals and used some terrible twisty contraptions. The sidewinder on the other hand is the closest thing you can get to pedal control in a twisty stick. the only decent thing microsoft ever made along with the flight sim series. (curses double broken xbox)
I'm actually using a Logitech 3D Pro. :lol :lol
I only switched to using a stick a month ago after 4 and half years of playing with a mouse. :aok
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hmm, i heard some good things about the logitech actualy, despite its poor record for lasting more than a year. The worst twisty stick i ever used, for 3 years no less, was the saitek cyborg. I cannot imagine using a mouse.
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my logiteck had the hat wear out in a couple months and was just very bouncy in general. The x52 and rudder pedals are muuuuuuuuuuuch better.
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My logitech is starting to get a bit bouncy. Might have to replace it soon. Overall it works decently though. Can't decide if I want to invest in a pair of rudder pedals or not.
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so much personal preference in stick feel and prefered handling that I've most of folks advice to be pretty much worthless in that regard. For instance, I hear folks going on and on about twist stick, and about light resistance sticks vs heavy sticks.
I've never hkd ansy trouble at all with fine control while using a twisty stick. Only trouble I've ever had with twisty's is when a stick starts wearing out, and the inputs or contacts start getting worn and the axis just doesn't work.
As for light vs heavy spring on the stick just comes down to what you're used to, and learned on. I've been flying the past yer and a half with a saitek X52. It's the only stick I've ever played AHII with. And really haven't had trouble with the twisty stick or the light touch of th stick.
My 3rd x52 though has failed now due to mechanical issues, and I've switched the stick to a Logitech Extreme 3d pro while I wait months for my replacement from Saitek. This stick has a really heavy spring. I've initially found the heavy spring difficult to fly with. Not because it's worse or better, just because I have been using a lighter spring for years and the transition is difficult.
Admittedly I have found the heavy pull easier to work with though on planes with higher roll rates than the P38. With this heavy pull it feels like I am fighting a P38, but a P51 feels really smooth.
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the first sidewinder i got was in 1997 along with MS flight sim 97. It still works perfectly after 11 years, although it is gameport not usb so it has been passed on to a friend. Another friend sent me 2 usb sidewinders for christmas a while back and they work great to this day, although the hat on the one im using is starting to get a bit loose now.
to anyone who is thinking of spending money on a stick in the future and does not have pedals already, find a Microsoft Sidewinder and you wont have to spend money again untill aces high 3.