Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TonyJoey on June 18, 2008, 09:12:34 AM
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What exactly is this move? Heard it being said somewhere today hmmmmmm..... :uhoh
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Series of High Yo-Yo's , I think.
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I forget exactly what it is, I believe it could be describes as a turn with variable G loading. The pilot pulls G to get turn rate and get the nose around quickly, but in doing so loses E which degrades the turn rate, When he gets to slow he relaxes on the turn and probably goes a little nose low and builds the E back then repeats the hard turn.
The idea being that looking at a 360 turn from the top it would appear to have a similar shape to the cloverleaf if that makes sense.
That was my understanding at least it's probably not a complete description, I'm mostly just trying to bump the thread till someone else can come along, if I recall correctly I think it was either Murdr or AKAK that was telling me about it.
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It's not a know acm as far as I know. I've never heard of it.
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It's not a know acm as far as I know. I've never heard of it.
Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a maneuver. Just sayin'.
ack-ack
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Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a maneuver. Just sayin'.
ack-ack
12 years around these games, Robert Shaw, other publications, articles and BBs posts you'de think I might have run into it by now. Just sayin'.
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12 years around these games, Robert Shaw, other publications, articles and BBs posts you'de think I might have run into it by now. Just sayin'.
Surprised then you haven't come across it in your years of playing. I know I've come across it during the 15 years I've been playing these games. Heck, I'm sure you can easily find it by doing a search of these forums, if the latest forum glitch didn't delete the archives or just type Cloverleaf ACM in Google and search away. Just sayin'.
ack-ack
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Surprised then you haven't come across it in your years of playing. I know I've come across it during the 15 years I've been playing these games. Heck, I'm sure you can easily find it by doing a search of these forums, if the latest forum glitch didn't delete the archives or just type Cloverleaf ACM in Google and search away. Just sayin'.
ack-ack
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That might be why in my original post I said "as far as I know". Since you do claim to know it, then please describe this obscure manouver (NADA on a Google search) Mr. Holier than Thou.
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That might be why in my original post I said "as far as I know". Since you do claim to know it, then please describe this obscure manouver (NADA on a Google search) Mr. Holier than Thou.
It's not obscure but 'combination maneuver'.
From Air Force "T-38 PRECISION AEROBATICS" manual:
204.
CLOVERLEAF
a. Description
The Cloverleaf maneuver combines the first half of a Barrel Roll with the last half of a Loop.
b. General
This maneuver combines the smooth coordinated rolling control of the Barrel Roll and the pull
control of the basic Loop. It will help develop your timing, planning and coordination. You will
start with one (one of the four petals) of this maneuver at a time only until you are introduced to
the Combination Maneuver, after which you may do four series back to back (for a full four-leaf
clover). You must keep clearing yourself throughout the entire series. Review the Description
and General paragraphs for both the Barrel Roll and the Loop in the Contact FTI.
c. Procedures
(1) Transition to aerobatic cruise and complete the Aerobatic Checklist.
Commence a clearing turn and roll out perpendicular to a section line. Pick a prominent
reference point on the horizon 90o to either side of the nose, in the direction you intend to
perform the maneuver.
(2) Commence the maneuver by smoothly raising the nose while keeping the wings
level. As the exhaust stacks pass the horizon, roll and pull so that the nose travels around in an
arcing path towards the selected 90E checkpoint. After 45E of turn the angle of bank should be
90E and the nose will be at its highest point during the maneuver (approximately 5560 degrees
above the horizon).
(3) Continue rolling the aircraft at a constant rate until in a wings level, inverted
attitude, heading directly at the 90E reference point on the horizon. Your nose should be
slightly above the horizon and the airspeed should be between 90 and 100 knots. Fly the
aircraft through the inverted position, stopping the roll at wings level.
(4) Tilt your head back and visually locate the opposite horizon. Correct with
aileron as necessary to maintain the wings parallel to the horizon. Check the nose in relation to
the section line (opposite from your 90E reference point) while correcting for directional
deviations as necessary by adjusting the rudder inputs.
(5) Airspeed will reach its slowest point at the top of the loop. The greatest amount
of right rudder input will therefore be required at this point in order to maintain balanced flight.
Maintain positive G-loading and wings parallel to the horizon.
(6) Allow the nose to fall through the opposite horizon, adjusting the amount of aft
stick pressure to maintain a constant pitch rate. Fly the aircraft's nose along the section line,
relaxing right rudder pressure as airspeed is quickly regained.
(7) Continue to relax right rudder pressure as the airspeed increases in the dive and
smoothly increase aft stick pressure as necessary to maintain a constant pitch rate. The recovery
will again require approximately 3.5 Gs, so remember to resume the AGSM. Quickly scan the
altimeter during recovery in order to return to straight and level flight at approximately the same
altitude and airspeed, but offset 270E from the original heading, tracking along your section
line.
(8) Commence the next "leaf" (if applicable) as described above. As you recover
from the even-numbered maneuvers, you will fly perpendicular (vice parallel) across your
section line.
Cloverleaf applies to AHII as well. Best example is "Dedalos merge". Flat merge turn -> half barrel roll -> half loop
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A "cloverleaf" is a variable turn where the pilot is balancing a number of variables to maximize an attempt at angular gain. By alternately tightening and loosening the turn (and potentially using hi/low yoyo's) he's trying to eat into a cons angles. This tactic is normally employed by a P-38 vs a plane like a spitfire where the lack of torque and variable flaps can help to counter the spitties better turn rate. It's actual merit is debatable since its really dependent on the relitive skill level of the pilots involved.
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Very interesting bighorn and completely different then any context I've seen "cloverleaf" in...normally its some flavor of what I describe above...
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Very interesting bighorn and completely different then any context I've seen "cloverleaf" in...normally its some flavor of what I describe above...
Well, you could do simplified cloverleaf with combination of 270 degrees high yoyos.
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4.5 in here www.mnsoaringclub.com/msc/docs/ask-21_aerobatics.pdf
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BaldEagl, the cloverleaf is central to an old WWII era mock dogfight tale. I'm also surprised you've never came across it before.
Just like other composite maneuvers though, you only persist with it so long as the bogie is in the position for it to be effective. That's why there is a rolling scissors thread every other week in here. As soon as one of the two pilots is out of position, the rolling scissors are over. Most of the time, that is only one or two revolutions. You only get long rolling scissors fights with equal pilots, both making the right adjustments to their speed, barrel radius, and helix angle. As soon as someone makes a mistake, it's no longer a rolling scissors fight. Hence it's hard for newer players to get experience with that sort of maneuver, because when the other plane is out of position, you stop doing it :)
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4.5 in here www.mnsoaringclub.com/msc/docs/ask-21_aerobatics.pdf
Very helpful thx alot guys. :salute
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Cloverleaf was specific to P-38s as far as I've heard it. It's a flat turn, horizontal, taking advantage of the lack of torque on the P-38 and the ability of it to mush through a stall for a much greater distance than other planes.
You pull in tight, past the stall, getting the nose around, ease up to come out of the stall, pull in to mush around more, repeat. By doing this the P-38 can get its guns on target well before the enemy, because it's riding through the stall rather than on it.
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I've always encountered the Cloverleaf as an aerobatic maneuver. While there is some overlap between aerobatics and ACM, I think the Cloverleaf is intended to display aircraft handling skills as opposed to gaining a particular advantage during combat. You'll find it in most aerobatic handbooks, although I have not seen it in any of the ACM specific books. Change your Google search to "cloverleaf aerobatic maneuver" for more. :aok
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4.5 in here www.mnsoaringclub.com/msc/docs/ask-21_aerobatics.pdf
To me it looks like a series of vector roll or rollaway (similiar to hi Yo-Yo) moves, but in an areobatics context.
The P-38 specific description sounds like one o' those SAPP secret moves. :O A devious group of thugs and misfits them guys :D
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I've always encountered the Cloverleaf as an aerobatic maneuver. While there is some overlap between aerobatics and ACM, I think the Cloverleaf is intended to display aircraft handling skills as opposed to gaining a particular advantage during combat. You'll find it in most aerobatic handbooks, although I have not seen it in any of the ACM specific books. Change your Google search to "cloverleaf aerobatic maneuver" for more. :aok
RGR that. The value of cloverleaf is in learning how to execute maneuvers with max coordination and precision.
Yes, Cloverleaf was specific to P-38s as far as I've heard it. It's a flat turn, horizontal, taking advantage of the lack of torque on the P-38 and the ability of it to mush through a stall for a much greater distance than other planes.
You pull in tight, past the stall, getting the nose around, ease up to come out of the stall, pull in to mush around more, repeat. By doing this the P-38 can get its guns on target well before the enemy, because it's riding through the stall rather than on it.
Well Krusty, you've heard wrongly...
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Really? Considering the quote was from a P-38 pilot explaining it, I'm inclined to believe it until proven otherwise.
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Really? Considering the quote was from a P-38 pilot explaining it, I'm inclined to believe it until proven otherwise.
It wasn't specific to the P-38, it just happens to be that this maneuver is highly suited for the P-38.
ack-ack
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This is the first I have heard of this move. But that means nothing.
There's not much use for it as an ACM. But looks handy for vulching a base or bombing ground targets.
I will say that if you can do this move to exact specifications over and over you will have achieved a very high degree of SA and coordination. If one has this it would fairly easy learn other more specfic ACM moves.
The soaring club pdf shows it the best. Here is a picture of it from the manual.
(http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/training/cloverleaf.jpg)
Source - http://skylinesoaring.org
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Aerobatic and training maneuver. Not an Air Combat Maneuver. Did them all the time in the training command. Never, ever did one in ACM (or even heard anyone suggest it).
Of course loops and barrel rolls are used all the time in ACM so an extended vertical fight could resemble one but only by accident. For instance after a 180 merge you go vertical. The bandit does a level turn. As you pull into the vertical you roll to keep your lift vector on the bandit. As you climb, go over the top and then pull down you're constantly rolling. What's that? Essentially a barrel roll. You repeat this and it'll look like a cloverleaf but that's only the result of your normal maneuvers. You're not saying "I'm going to cloverleaf that sucka"!
People invent all sorts of names for maneuvers. Sometimes it's because they don't know the right name, they're trying to give a verbal description of how they perceived a fight or it's simply part of a squadron's lingo.
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Aerobatic and training maneuver. Not an Air Combat Maneuver. Did them all the time in the training command. Never, ever did one in ACM (or even heard anyone suggest it).
Of course loops and barrel rolls are used all the time in ACM so an extended vertical fight could resemble one but only by accident. For instance after a 180 merge you go vertical. The bandit does a level turn. As you pull into the vertical you roll to keep your lift vector on the bandit. As you climb, go over the top and then pull down you're constantly rolling. What's that? Essentially a barrel roll. You repeat this and it'll look like a cloverleaf but that's only the result of your normal maneuvers. You're not saying "I'm going to cloverleaf that sucka"!
People invent all sorts of names for maneuvers. Sometimes it's because they don't know the right name, they're trying to give a verbal description of how they perceived a fight or it's simply part of a squadron's lingo.
The same can be said for Cuban-8s and Half Cuban 8s but in AH are very valid maneuvers though in reality they are nothing more than aerobatic maneuvers. The same applies to the Cloverleaf. The maneuver allows a plane with better low/stall speed characteristics to use that to their advantage against a plane that is a better turner but isn't as capable in the low/stall speed area, P-38 vs Spitfire is an example of such a matchup. It's by no means a 100% win tactic but if caught in a low/stall speed engagement, it's a tactic one can try to pull one's nuts out of the fire.
ack-ack
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All ACM moves are derived from thier respective aerobatic counter parts. One can not understand ACM much less perform it unless one is skilled in performng at least the basic aerobatic moves.
The cloverleaf is just about the best example of this I have seen in a long time. Like I said earlier, if you can do the complete clover perfectly you will be getting kills. In fact I challenge anybody to post a film of the cloverleaf....all 4 leaf's...performed over a cross airfield ( so we can judge the angles and make sure it meets the specs). But if you post it, it better be perfect...no "oh the last part is kinda off but thats basically it" kinda crap.
As for ACM I say if you can pull this off then you have near perfect SA...not just on finding and judging cons but on how your plane is fying in relation to the ground.
The basis behind ACM are the most basic aerobatic maneuvers.
A simple analogy. I used to be a Paramedic. I learned all kinds of advanced fancy stuff...fancy equipment..cowboy stuff that u see in the movies..but the thing that saved the people dying were the most basic stuff every person learns from boyscouts up....mostly it was keeping a cool head....being aware of your surroundings...and using a simple basic skill that gets forgotten. It's 1 in a thousand something fancy gets the credit...it's 1 in 2 a simple basic treatment made at the right time gets the save. I am sure all of you in your respective real lives will have an example when it was the most basic, simple thing that made the difference in a difficult situation.
Same thing here. If you think about it...a perfect simple barrel roll will get you a kill many more times than a fancy climbing stall flipping magic move.
Ok the challenge has been posted...Post your perfect cloverleaf is you dare.....I'm gonna be the first one to win....muuuwwwhahhaahahah
:salute
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One can not understand ACM much less perform it unless one is skilled in performng at least the basic aerobatic moves.
I've never studied aerobatics and I think I understand and perform ACM's pretty well for the most part but whatever.
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Ok the challenge has been posted...Post your perfect cloverleaf is you dare.....I'm gonna be the first one to win....muuuwwwhahhaahahah
There are at least two ways to do a "cloverleaf" and it depends on where you do your roll. A series of four linked wingovers creates a cloverleaf that actually looks like a cloverleaf from above. The one in the diagram are just four simple loops with a 90 deg roll as you go vertical which spaces the loops 90deg apart. From above, it doesn't look like a cloverleaf, it looks like a cross. Here's the wingover style cloverleaf http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/film4_0118.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/film4_0118.ahf) To see the cloverleaf select "Fixed", slide the right slider to the bottom and turn trails on.
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There are at least two ways to do a "cloverleaf" and it depends on where you do your roll. A series of four linked wingovers creates a cloverleaf that actually looks like a cloverleaf from above.
that's the maneuver.
ack-ack
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What exactly is this move? Heard it being said somewhere today hmmmmmm..... :uhoh
i always though it was another name for the lufburry circle?
<<S>>
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No, these are two completely different things. In a lufbury circle all the planes fly spread out in a continuous level circle, usually at very low altitude. Anyone trying to attack one of the aircraft subjects himself to an attack by the aircraft circling behind so it's a great defensive maneuver. The Lufbury was used extensively by the North Vietnamese in the Vietnam war. Also, it's a tactic used by USAF A-10's (at least they used it quite often during Red Flags). Pretty tough to figure out how to attack one of these guys as you're presenting a nice target for either Sidewinder or 30mm cannon fire anytime you rolled in on one.
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Of course the Germans invented the Luftberry and used it at all alts.
Strip
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Raoul Lufbery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery
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It's not obscure but 'combination maneuver'.
From Air Force "T-38 PRECISION AEROBATICS" manual:
.........
(2) Commence the maneuver by smoothly raising the nose while keeping the wings
level. As the exhaust stacks pass the horizon, roll and pull so that the nose travels around in an
arcing path towards the selected 90E checkpoint. After 45E of turn the angle of bank should be
90E and the nose will be at its highest point during the maneuver (approximately 5560 degrees
above the horizon)..............
Exhaust stacks on a T-38??
I agree that this isn't an ACM maneuver. It appears to be mostly a ground reference maneuver. (although the amount of coordination it requires to perform it would certainly benefit anyone in ACM)
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T-28 Trojan perhaps?
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If you think about it...a perfect simple barrel roll will get you a kill many more times than a fancy climbing stall flipping magic move.
I prefer the phrase "retina-detaching". Gets the idea across quite nicely. :lol
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I prefer the phrase "retina-detaching". Gets the idea across quite nicely. :lol
LOL...yea i get the point. And your right. But i havent had any retina detatchments happen latley...hehhehe....its great to be a virtual pilot...hehehe
Still though the simple moves...the more graceful and coordinated you are with basic maneuvers will "give" you guns more than anything else. WORD!!! :rock