Cloverleaf

[Krusty]

Cloverleaf was specific to P-38s as far as I've heard it. It's a flat turn, horizontal, taking advantage of the lack of torque on the P-38 and the ability of it to mush through a stall for a much greater distance than other planes.

You pull in tight, past the stall, getting the nose around, ease up to come out of the stall, pull in to mush around more, repeat. By doing this the P-38 can get its guns on target well before the enemy, because it's riding through the stall rather than on it.

[MachNum]

I've always encountered the Cloverleaf as an aerobatic maneuver. While there is some overlap between aerobatics and ACM, I think the Cloverleaf is intended to display aircraft handling skills as opposed to gaining a particular advantage during combat. You'll find it in most aerobatic handbooks, although I have not seen it in any of the ACM specific books. Change your Google search to "cloverleaf aerobatic maneuver" for more. 

[Jenks]

4.5 in here www.mnsoaringclub.com/msc/docs/ask-21_aerobatics.pdf

To me it looks like a series of vector roll or rollaway (similiar to hi Yo-Yo) moves, but in an areobatics context.

The  P-38 specific description sounds like one o' those SAPP secret moves. A devious group of thugs and misfits them guys

[2bighorn]

I've always encountered the Cloverleaf as an aerobatic maneuver. While there is some overlap between aerobatics and ACM, I think the Cloverleaf is intended to display aircraft handling skills as opposed to gaining a particular advantage during combat. You'll find it in most aerobatic handbooks, although I have not seen it in any of the ACM specific books. Change your Google search to "cloverleaf aerobatic maneuver" for more. 

RGR that. The value of cloverleaf is in learning how to execute maneuvers with max coordination and precision.


Yes,

Cloverleaf was specific to P-38s as far as I've heard it. It's a flat turn, horizontal, taking advantage of the lack of torque on the P-38 and the ability of it to mush through a stall for a much greater distance than other planes.

You pull in tight, past the stall, getting the nose around, ease up to come out of the stall, pull in to mush around more, repeat. By doing this the P-38 can get its guns on target well before the enemy, because it's riding through the stall rather than on it.

Well Krusty, you've heard wrongly...

[Krusty]

Really? Considering the quote was from a P-38 pilot explaining it, I'm inclined to believe it until proven otherwise.

[Ack-Ack]

Really? Considering the quote was from a P-38 pilot explaining it, I'm inclined to believe it until proven otherwise.

It wasn't specific to the P-38, it just happens to be that this maneuver is highly suited for the P-38.


ack-ack

[Agent360]

This is the first I have heard of this move. But that means nothing.

There's not much use for it as an ACM. But looks handy for vulching a base or bombing ground targets.

I will say that if you can do this move to exact specifications over and over you will have achieved a very high degree of SA and coordination. If one has this it would fairly easy learn other more specfic ACM moves.

The soaring club pdf shows it the best. Here is a picture of it from the manual.



Source - http://skylinesoaring.org

[Mace2004]

Aerobatic and training maneuver.  Not an Air Combat Maneuver.  Did them all the time in the training command.  Never, ever did one in ACM (or even heard anyone suggest it). 

Of course loops and barrel rolls are used all the time in ACM so an extended vertical fight could resemble one but only by accident.  For instance after a 180 merge you go vertical.  The bandit does a level turn.  As you pull into the vertical you roll to keep your lift vector on the bandit.  As you climb, go over the top and then pull down you're constantly rolling.  What's that?  Essentially a barrel roll.  You repeat this and it'll look like a cloverleaf but that's only the result of your normal maneuvers.  You're not saying "I'm going to cloverleaf that sucka"!

People invent all sorts of names for maneuvers.  Sometimes it's because they don't know the right name, they're trying to give a verbal description of how they perceived a fight or it's simply part of a squadron's lingo.

[Ack-Ack]

Aerobatic and training maneuver.  Not an Air Combat Maneuver.  Did them all the time in the training command.  Never, ever did one in ACM (or even heard anyone suggest it). 

Of course loops and barrel rolls are used all the time in ACM so an extended vertical fight could resemble one but only by accident.  For instance after a 180 merge you go vertical.  The bandit does a level turn.  As you pull into the vertical you roll to keep your lift vector on the bandit.  As you climb, go over the top and then pull down you're constantly rolling.  What's that?  Essentially a barrel roll.  You repeat this and it'll look like a cloverleaf but that's only the result of your normal maneuvers.  You're not saying "I'm going to cloverleaf that sucka"!

People invent all sorts of names for maneuvers.  Sometimes it's because they don't know the right name, they're trying to give a verbal description of how they perceived a fight or it's simply part of a squadron's lingo.

The same can be said for Cuban-8s and Half Cuban 8s but in AH are very valid maneuvers though in reality they are nothing more than aerobatic maneuvers.  The same applies to the Cloverleaf.  The maneuver allows a plane with better low/stall speed characteristics to use that to their advantage against a plane that is a better turner but isn't as capable in the low/stall speed area, P-38 vs Spitfire is an example of such a matchup.  It's by no means a 100% win tactic but if caught in a low/stall speed engagement, it's a tactic one can try to pull one's nuts out of the fire.


ack-ack

[Agent360]

All ACM moves are derived from thier respective aerobatic counter parts. One can not understand ACM much less perform it unless one is skilled in performng at least the basic aerobatic moves.

The cloverleaf is just about the best example of this I have seen in a long time. Like I said earlier, if you can do the complete clover perfectly you will be getting kills. In fact I challenge anybody to post a film of the cloverleaf....all 4 leaf's...performed over a cross airfield ( so we can judge the angles and make sure it meets the specs). But if you post it, it better be perfect...no "oh the last part is kinda off but thats basically it" kinda crap.

As for ACM I say if you can pull this off then you have near perfect SA...not just on finding and judging cons but on how your plane is fying in relation to the ground.

The basis behind ACM are the most basic aerobatic maneuvers.
A simple analogy. I used to be a Paramedic. I learned all kinds of advanced fancy stuff...fancy equipment..cowboy stuff that u see in the movies..but the thing that saved the people dying were the most basic stuff every person learns from boyscouts up....mostly it was keeping a cool head....being aware of your surroundings...and using a simple basic skill that gets forgotten. It's 1 in a thousand something fancy gets the credit...it's 1 in 2 a simple basic treatment made at the right time gets the save. I am sure all of you in your respective real lives will have an example when it was the most basic, simple thing that made the difference in a difficult situation.

Same thing here. If you think about it...a perfect simple barrel roll will get you a kill many more times than a fancy climbing stall flipping magic move.

Ok the challenge has been posted...Post your perfect cloverleaf is you dare.....I'm gonna be the first one to win....muuuwwwhahhaahahah

 

[BaldEagl]

One can not understand ACM much less perform it unless one is skilled in performng at least the basic aerobatic moves.

I've never studied aerobatics and I think I understand and perform ACM's pretty well for the most part but whatever.

[Mace2004]

Ok the challenge has been posted...Post your perfect cloverleaf is you dare.....I'm gonna be the first one to win....muuuwwwhahhaahahah

There are at least two ways to do a "cloverleaf" and it depends on where you do your roll.  A series of four linked wingovers creates a cloverleaf that actually looks like a cloverleaf from above.  The one in the diagram are just four simple loops with a 90 deg roll as you go vertical which spaces the loops 90deg apart.  From above, it doesn't look like a cloverleaf, it looks like a cross.  Here's the wingover style cloverleaf http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/film4_0118.ahf  To see the cloverleaf select "Fixed", slide the right slider to the bottom and turn trails on.

[Ack-Ack]

There are at least two ways to do a "cloverleaf" and it depends on where you do your roll.  A series of four linked wingovers creates a cloverleaf that actually looks like a cloverleaf from above. 

that's the maneuver.


ack-ack

[CAP1]

What exactly is this move? Heard it being said somewhere today hmmmmmm.....

i always though it was another name for the lufburry circle?

<<S>>

[Mace2004]

No, these are two completely different things.  In a lufbury circle all the planes fly spread out in a continuous level circle, usually at very low altitude.  Anyone trying to attack one of the aircraft subjects himself to an attack by the aircraft circling behind so it's a great defensive maneuver.  The Lufbury was used extensively by the North Vietnamese in the Vietnam war.  Also, it's a tactic used by USAF A-10's (at least they used it quite often during Red Flags).  Pretty tough to figure out how to attack one of these guys as you're presenting a nice target for either Sidewinder or 30mm cannon fire anytime you rolled in on one.