General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anodizer on June 21, 2008, 01:01:23 PM
Title: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Anodizer on June 21, 2008, 01:01:23 PM
So, here I am, lined up perfectly on the tail of this LA in lead pursuit. Got the angle but have no 20mm left and one of my 50's is hit and not operational. But I'm close enough to do some damage at least. So, I'm throttled down, ready for the attempt at an over shoot.. Then suddenly, the LA drops behind as if they ran into something (not a warp). As he's passing by, I hear his doing the chug chug as it was just shut down, then I hear it start again when he gets behind me.. Luckily I was going faster than him, throttled up, hit wep, and climbed away until a squadie saved my butt just in time. :rock I've seen this tactic before used in guys mainly with Yaks and never thought much of it until I began to do some research..
In a radial air-cooled engine, the starting process is extremely complicated figuring 10-15 steps before even engaging the starter.. Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down.. Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted. THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform..
As far as Liquid cooled in-line or Vee configured engines, I haven't researched that yet..
Just wondering what you guys thought..
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Fulmar on June 21, 2008, 01:12:05 PM
I wouldn't call it gaming the game because the game lacks the realism of engine mechanics. Gaming the game to me is using a known exploit excessively to achieve success. We have to draw the line on realism. If we were to provide the true realism of that raidal air cooled engine, imagine the exponential growth of 2 weekers asking for help on the issue.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: A8balls on June 21, 2008, 01:16:01 PM
The engine continues to turn while in flight, just like the real thing, when the ignition is turned off. The engine continues to turn negating the oil drainage or any other "dead stop" characteristic of the engine. The slowing of the plane occurs because the prop is now creating resistance (drag) instead of thrust. Just like in real life. :salute
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Roundeye on June 21, 2008, 01:30:43 PM
In real life, radial engines can be shut down and restarted in flight no problem. On radials, hydraulic lock does not immediately occur on shut down. It can occur after sitting a while and must be checked for as a precaution, thats why you see the ground crews pulling the blades through before startup...just to check for it.
As far as game tactic, its not any different than chopping the throttle. (kinda wierd to me to kill it rather than reducing to idle though but to each his own)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: g00b on June 21, 2008, 01:36:00 PM
Actually your plane has more drag at idle than with the engine turned off. Turning your engine off in a dogfight is just dumb. The only valid tactic is for stealth. Gliding to sneak-attack a buff or GV is always fun.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: spit16nooby on June 21, 2008, 01:38:19 PM
well i was going to say what goob said while typing on cellphone. so thanks for saving me the time.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: hubsonfire on June 21, 2008, 01:38:31 PM
Someone from HTC posted about this a few years ago (Pyro, I think?). I believe the verdict was that it was no more effective than just pulling the throttle back to idle. Unrealistic? Sure. Gaming the game? Nope.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: jerkins on June 21, 2008, 01:38:45 PM
Cutting the engine is a useless tactic and ive never seen it do more than simply chopping throttle. If someone cuts their engine, im usually ready for an easy kill.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Rollins on June 21, 2008, 01:43:06 PM
Hub I think you're right, IIRC Widewing did some testing to prove the same. No advantage to cutting engine, though I'm sure if you don't know any better you'd sure feel like a hot rod doin' it. ;)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Urthona on June 21, 2008, 01:55:13 PM
One thing to note is that the 'W" and "E" keys are right next to each other on the keyboard. In the heat of a turn fight I have accidentally killed my engine on several occasions when I intended to retract flaps.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Roundeye on June 21, 2008, 01:55:26 PM
Turning your engine off in a dogfight is just dumb. The only valid tactic is for stealth. Gliding to sneak-attack a buff or GV is always fun.
I've heard of engine cutting for that reason, but that is nothing less than exploiting a flaw in the game. I'm not saying its wrong to do because IMO, someone who is paying their own $14.95 a month can cut engines all they want.
But in the real world, you cannot hear another plane near you. Your own plane's engine and wind noise is so loud, you couldn't hear a B-29 directly on your 6. I've flown tight formation with another C-152 and you would not even know it was there unless you looked at it.
As far as sneaking up on GVs, no pilot in his right mind would SHUT DOWN his engine near the ground in the real world. Thats onehelluva gamble. It wouldn't be much quieter (if any) than the sound a diving plane with an idling engine makes anyway.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Spikes on June 21, 2008, 02:04:42 PM
As far as sneaking up on GVs, no pilot in his right mind would SHUT DOWN his engine near the ground. Thats onehelluva gamble. It wouldn't be much quieter (if any) than the sound a diving plane with an idling engine makes anyway.
I shut it down all the time while bombing GVs in my Ar.234. It's a valid tactic. Climb to 5K, and when you see a GV automatically shut off your engine, and start a dive, he'll never hear you coming.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Roundeye on June 21, 2008, 02:07:28 PM
I shut it down all the time while bombing GVs in my Ar.234. It's a valid tactic. Climb to 5K, and when you see a GV automatically shut off your engine, and start a dive, he'll never hear you coming.
Fixed my text. I meant in the real world. Sure, it works in the game, but would do nothing in real life other than put you in danger.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: g00b on June 21, 2008, 02:19:21 PM
Can't find the source currently, but I guarentee "glide bombing" was actually used with effectiveness during WWII.
Can't find the source currently, but I guarentee "glide bombing" was actually used with effectiveness during WWII.
Glide bombing referrs to what the bomb does, not the aircraft. Unless you wanted to call it a "high speed glide". In which case shutting your engine down would again do nothing but put you and your aircraft at risk for no reason.http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html (http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html)
Glide bombing referrs to what the bomb does, not the aircraft. Unless you wanted to call it a "high speed glide". In which case shutting your engine down would again do nothing but put you and your aircraft at risk for no reason.http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html (http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html)
So, here I am, lined up perfectly on the tail of this LA in lead pursuit. Got the angle but have no 20mm left and one of my 50's is hit and not operational. But I'm close enough to do some damage at least. So, I'm throttled down, ready for the attempt at an over shoot.. Then suddenly, the LA drops behind as if they ran into something (not a warp). As he's passing by, I hear his doing the chug chug as it was just shut down, then I hear it start again when he gets behind me.. Luckily I was going faster than him, throttled up, hit wep, and climbed away until a squadie saved my butt just in time. :rock I've seen this tactic before used in guys mainly with Yaks and never thought much of it until I began to do some research..
In a radial air-cooled engine, the starting process is extremely complicated figuring 10-15 steps before even engaging the starter.. Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down.. Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted. THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform..
As far as Liquid cooled in-line or Vee configured engines, I haven't researched that yet..
Just wondering what you guys thought..
considering some of the other things people do in here, i'd say this is a valid tactic. i don't see it as much different than simply pulling the throttle to idle.
<<S>>
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: crockett on June 21, 2008, 05:00:43 PM
Why cut your engine when you can just reduce throttle?
when engine at idle you cant hear gv's, or surrounding noise (prolly not best thing to do in air-air mode) Jug has no protracted start/stop sound, so cycling engine for 2 seconds most useful hunting gv's from on high
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Slamfire on June 21, 2008, 06:13:44 PM
Actually your plane has more drag at idle than with the engine turned off. Turning your engine off in a dogfight is just dumb. The only valid tactic is for stealth. Gliding to sneak-attack a buff or GV is always fun.
Turning the engine off in flight is the #1 way to find GVs - with the engine off, even at high alt, you can hear where the enemy GVs are (provided they have their engines on). You can find them by 3d sound long before icon/dot range.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: pallero on June 21, 2008, 06:16:56 PM
I still maintain I've read of planes gliding in for sneak attacks. I'll try to find a source...
Here is one. Soviet women pilots, The Night Witches. *click* (http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/witches.htm)
Quote
The Witches would fly to a certain distance of the enemy encapments that were to be the target, and cut their engine. They would then glide silently, silently... When the Fascists started to hear the whistle of the wind against the Po-2's wing bracing wires, they realized in panic that it was too late. The Night Witches would sneak up on them and release their bombs, then restart their engines and fly away home.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Widewing on June 22, 2008, 10:21:31 AM
I think you need to do more research. We used to shut down an engine (R-1820-82) for single engine training. Restarting was a simple process. No worry about hydraulic lock.
Hydraulic lock can occur when a radial engine sits for a long time. It's quite rare. I have over 2,300 hours in radial powered military aircraft and have never seen an instance of hydraulic lock. When you see ground crew pushing the prop through on the ground, they're clearing the lower cylinders of accumulated oil, out through the exhaust valve. Starters on radials are designed to shear the shaft should enough resistance be encountered if a cylinder is full of oil. Again, that's a very rare occurrence. Usually, one valve is open enough to provide a place for excess oil to go. Most oil ends up in the stacks, where it either burns off, or gets blown out.
As others have stated, their is little to no difference between pulling throttle to idle and hitting the E key, relative to deceleration. What is not modeled is prop drag when windmilling. Some aircraft decelerate slower than others. Spitfires and Tempests slow rapidly. The La-7 decelerates much slower. It seems almost random throughout the plane set.
I've tested this a great deal. Airframe drag is not what makes it different. You can see this by diving to high speed, level off and kill the motor at 400 mph. Time how long it takes to slow to 300 mph. Repeat the test, this time setting prop pitch to minimum drag. Test several different aircraft and you will see that the cleaner airframe decelerates much slower when the prop drag in minimized. Be sure to test aircraft of similar weight as momentum of mass IS modeled. Testing a Zero and P-47 is an example of an apples and oranges test, where momentum greatly skews the data.
I performed many tests of this kind, and presented one to HTC as a prime example of the randomness of prop drag from plane to plane. We know that the P-51D has a much lower drag coefficient than the La-7. Yet, when you do the deceleration test with max drag of the prop (low pitch), the Mustang decelerates faster than the La-7 with the engines at idle. However, if you set high pitch, the La-7 decelerates much quicker than the Mustang. Thus, we know that that prop drag at low pitch is not modeled (and HiTech has stated this to be true). It is what it is.... I compiled a ranking of aircraft prop drag on some fighters.
E bleed was measured from 350 mph down to 150 mph with props at normal (low) pitch and 25% fuel. The elapsed times in seconds are as follows:
Planes at the bottom end of the list are the most likely to force an overshoot by chopping throttle or killing the engine as they have the highest rate of deceleration without power. Weight is a factor due to momentum. However, heavy fighters like the Tempest and Typhoon suffer huge prop drag at idle and it is seen in the results.
Now, all of the above is merely information. The fact that you fell for the old "chop the power overshoot" tells me that you were caught unprepared. When an enemy chops power like that, simply pull into the vertical, roll and drop in behind. The fact that the other guy has chopped power or killed the engine means that he hasn't the thrust to go vertical with you. Countering maneuvers or tricks to force an overshoot is something you learn from experience.
My regards,
Widewing
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Anodizer on June 22, 2008, 01:02:01 PM
I think you need to do more research. We used to shut down an engine (R-1820-82) for single engine training. Restarting was a simple process. No worry about hydraulic lock.
Hydraulic lock can occur when a radial engine sits for a long time. It's quite rare. I have over 2,300 hours in radial powered military aircraft and have never seen an instance of hydraulic lock. When you see ground crew pushing the prop through on the ground, they're clearing the lower cylinders of accumulated oil, out through the exhaust valve. Starters on radials are designed to shear the shaft should enough resistance be encountered if a cylinder is full of oil. Again, that's a very rare occurrence. Usually, one valve is open enough to provide a place for excess oil to go. Most oil ends up in the stacks, where it either burns off, or gets blown out.
As others have stated, their is little to no difference between pulling throttle to idle and hitting the E key, relative to deceleration. What is not modeled is prop drag when windmilling. Some aircraft decelerate slower than others. Spitfires and Tempests slow rapidly. The La-7 decelerates much slower. It seems almost random throughout the plane set.
I've tested this a great deal. Airframe drag is not what makes it different. You can see this by diving to high speed, level off and kill the motor at 400 mph. Time how long it takes to slow to 300 mph. Repeat the test, this time setting prop pitch to minimum drag. Test several different aircraft and you will see that the cleaner airframe decelerates much slower when the prop drag in minimized. Be sure to test aircraft of similar weight as momentum of mass IS modeled. Testing a Zero and P-47 is an example of an apples and oranges test, where momentum greatly skews the data.
I performed many tests of this kind, and presented one to HTC as a prime example of the randomness of prop drag from plane to plane. We know that the P-51D has a much lower drag coefficient than the La-7. Yet, when you do the deceleration test with max drag of the prop (low pitch), the Mustang decelerates faster than the La-7 with the engines at idle. However, if you set high pitch, the La-7 decelerates much quicker than the Mustang. Thus, we know that that prop drag at low pitch is not modeled (and HiTech has stated this to be true). It is what it is.... I compiled a ranking of aircraft prop drag on some fighters.
E bleed was measured from 350 mph down to 150 mph with props at normal (low) pitch and 25% fuel. The elapsed times in seconds are as follows:
Planes at the bottom end of the list are the most likely to force an overshoot by chopping throttle or killing the engine as they have the highest rate of deceleration without power. Weight is a factor due to momentum. However, heavy fighters like the Tempest and Typhoon suffer huge prop drag at idle and it is seen in the results.
Now, all of the above is merely information. The fact that you fell for the old "chop the power overshoot" tells me that you were caught unprepared. When an enemy chops power like that, simply pull into the vertical, roll and drop in behind. The fact that the other guy has chopped power or killed the engine means that he hasn't the thrust to go vertical with you. Countering maneuvers or tricks to force an overshoot is something you learn from experience.
My regards,
Widewing
Thanks for the in-depth info! :rock Yeah, the info that I found on this matter wasn't entirely complete and after this thread started I did some more research and found exactly what you're saying as fact.. I don't know why, but after seeing a manual for a P-47 and all that's involved in starting the engine, I kind of assumed that starting a radial engine would be a complicated procedure and might possibly not be able to be done while in mid-flight.. I guess putting 2 and 2 together didn't work this time.. <S>
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tr0jan on June 22, 2008, 03:20:59 PM
I cut my engine to listen for Gv's :P :lol
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Spatula on June 22, 2008, 05:01:00 PM
Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..
Dropping the gear in an F4u is a perfectly valid thing to do for many reasons. It was designed to be used as a dive-brake and can be deployed at ridiculous speeds and causes quite a bit of drag. Can be quite useful for causing overshoots on top of using throttle. The hog will declerate very quickly in that case.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: kilz on June 22, 2008, 05:22:07 PM
i started cutting my engine on and off now that i lost my throttle and have to use the on on the stick
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: badhorse on June 22, 2008, 07:00:25 PM
Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down.. Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted. THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform..
While it is true the bottom cylinders of a radial engine was susceptable to hydraulic lock, it happened after the airplane had been shutdown for awhile and the oil in the cylinders drained down into the cylinder heads. If an engine shutdown in flight (especially with the prop still turning) hydraulic lock would not be a problem.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Bodhi on June 22, 2008, 07:21:22 PM
Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..
Perhaps you should look into the reasoning behind dropping gear. You might then see you should be actually laughing at yourself for not thinking of it sooner.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: crockett on June 22, 2008, 08:54:52 PM
Perhaps you should look into the reasoning behind dropping gear. You might then see you should be actually laughing at yourself for not thinking of it sooner.
I know why they do it.. I just find it sad that they have to do it. There are far better ways to get someone off your six with out dropping your landing gears.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Lusche on June 22, 2008, 09:17:17 PM
I know why they do it.. I just find it sad that they have to do it. There are far better ways to get someone off your six with out dropping your landing gears.
While most people just waste precious E with that gear-drop, there are some situations it's not the worst option.
For example, I was killed today by a F4U using that "stunt".
I was hunting down a F4U-C in my 190D, having a huge speed advantage as. Actually I did commit a major error by closing way too fast, maybe just short of 500mph. The F4U wasn't slow either, but still I was closing in very fast. In retrospect I know the Corsair suddenly kicked in rudder and deployed gear. Not having the best eyesight, I didn't realize the situation quick enough and barely prevented a collision. I was way too fast to quickly pull up or do similar maneuvres. I passed him, and 1/2 second later I was missing a wing. Doh!
My enemy correctly assessed the situation (and my error) and decided to do that somewhat risky, but after all successful maneuvre.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Gixer on June 22, 2008, 09:36:35 PM
Gamey! Just like F4's dropping their landing gear in a second flat and retracting it again. When ever I see some dweeb in a F4 of any model especially the C-Hog (as if the perk ride isn't easy mode enough :lol) dropping landing gear they are target number one and I will fly into ship ack and ignore every other con around me to to kill them. Often sending in three rounds just to watch the fireworks... :t
The cutting engine E is just as lame and gets given the same treatment, though much harder to pick out..
<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: CAP1 on June 23, 2008, 07:39:16 AM
Gamey! Just like F4's dropping their landing gear in a second flat and retracting it again. When ever I see some dweeb in a F4 of any model especially the C-Hog (as if the perk ride isn't easy mode enough :lol) dropping landing gear they are target number one and I will fly into ship ack and ignore every other con around me to to kill them. Often sending in three rounds just to watch the fireworks... :t
The cutting engine E is just as lame and gets given the same treatment, though much harder to pick out..
<S>...-Gixer
well, whoever was doing it, was doing..or at least he thought he was doing something to help himself inm a most likely bad situation. although real pilots in WW2 didn't do this, they DID however improvise when they felt the need to. then DID adapt to the situation at hand. through these they usually OVERCAME their enemy and a bad situation. that being said, what the hell? it was a guy trying something out. if you overshot him when he did it, then you did something wrong. same if you collided with him. rather than waste your time here crying about how ""gamey"" it is, or that in real life it was impossible, wouldn't your time be much better spent in DA or TA practicing? it's JUST A GAME gor Gods sake!! do what he did, improvise when he does this. adapt to the new situation. then when you've overcome his manuever, kill him :D
<<S>>
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: RumbleB on June 23, 2008, 08:17:49 AM
ok so it was a total lala dweeb and you thought he was gaming the game? sounds like he wasnt gaming anythign but himself.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Gixer on June 23, 2008, 08:18:57 AM
Can't find the source currently, but I guarentee "glide bombing" was actually used with effectiveness during WWII.
Yeah, glide bombing was a tactic but it didn't mean the engine was shut down. It refers to a shallow dive to bomb release vs the steep "dive bomb" attack.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: BoilerDown on June 23, 2008, 09:35:12 AM
Eh, if there's one thing I've learned so far its that you don't really know what works and what doesn't until you've tried it and failed a few times.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: LLogann on June 23, 2008, 09:37:58 AM
I know why they do it.. I just find it sad that they have to do it. There are far better ways to get someone off your six with out dropping your landing gears.
The F4u is designed to drop gear in flights that exceed normal "landing speeds". In fact the gear is designed with the use as an alternate dive brake in mind. When I am in a rolling scissors, I like to deploy them and retract them, as they give me enough drag to roll in and behind a bit further. If I come in high and fast, they provide me with the ability to dive in and not over speed and auger. Lastly, if I commit to a turn fight in a circle, I very often deploy them and retract them to get down to the best high degree turn so that I get first whack at the nme.
Game, naw, more of just knowing the aircraft you are flying.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: BaldEagl on June 23, 2008, 01:20:29 PM
Cutting your engine is neither a valid tactic or gaming the game, it's just stupid.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Gixer on June 23, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
The F4u is designed to drop gear in flights that exceed normal "landing speeds". In fact the gear is designed with the use as an alternate dive brake in mind. When I am in a rolling scissors, I like to deploy them and retract them, as they give me enough drag to roll in and behind a bit further. If I come in high and fast, they provide me with the ability to dive in and not over speed and auger. Lastly, if I commit to a turn fight in a circle, I very often deploy them and retract them to get down to the best high degree turn so that I get first whack at the nme.
Game, naw, more of just knowing the aircraft you are flying.
Game yes, name a plane in reality that can lower and raise it's landing gear as fast? Drop to use as a brake yes, drop-raise-drop-raise in a few seconds no. Nothing to do with knowing your aircraft. Your taking advantage of the gamey flight modeling. As if the uber flaps aren't easy enough.
Anyway, when ever I see flaps out landing gear down can't help but laugh, as It's a great energy state indicator for time to pull verticle drop down and nail the dweeb.
<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Lusche on June 23, 2008, 05:42:47 PM
Game yes, name a plane in reality that can lower and raise it's landing gear as fast? Your taking advantage of the gamey flight modeling.
With such a definition of "gamey" we may be doing a lot of gamey things in game. I'm not shure if real WWII could endure slamming into the rudder at 500mph to help slowing down. I vaguely remember having read about the Pony "no rudder above XXX mph" ... someone with better knowledge could elaborate or tell me I'm wrong
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Bodhi on June 24, 2008, 08:40:45 AM
Game yes, name a plane in reality that can lower and raise it's landing gear as fast? Drop to use as a brake yes, drop-raise-drop-raise in a few seconds no. Nothing to do with knowing your aircraft. Your taking advantage of the gamey flight modeling. As if the uber flaps aren't easy enough.
Anyway, when ever I see flaps out landing gear down can't help but laugh, as It's a great energy state indicator for time to pull verticle drop down and nail the dweeb.
<S>...-Gixer
Just an fyi, the F4u can drop it's gear at most speeds. The tail stays in, and the mains will come down to the point at which an unloading valve will prevent any extension that would cause damage. The same goes to the flaps. They can be set to any setting, but will extend and retract on their own as they too equipped with a system that prevents extension due to damage.
As for the way I fly, I almost always fly the F4u, and I do not "pump" the gear up and down. I drop them as I need to move into the energy state I see fit. After I choose the fight, I either commit to it or not, because as you said, it can really unload a ton of "e" at which point I am committed and need to make the first shot or two. Thats the way I like to fight. I do not last a super long time anymore, but I kill a lot more than I die, and I generally have fun.
Seems to me, there are a lot more aspects in the game that are much more "gamey" than what you interpret the above to be. Like it was said before, standing on your rudder, or entering 9 G turns at 400 kts ias is far more gamey that raising or lowering your gear in an aircraft that is equipped to do that.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Murdr on June 24, 2008, 08:46:10 AM
SO THAT'S THE CATCH?? the cartoon airplanes are free, but ya hafta buy the cartoon gas?? :O :rofl :rofl
Yeah, it's $14.95 a month for unlimited cartoon gas. As usual the cartoon aircraft are free. :)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: SIK1 on June 24, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
I have run out of gas a few times in the middle of a fight while burning the left wing tank in the f4u-1. When I get into a fight the little things like what fuel tank I'm burning seems to get forgoten.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tumor on June 24, 2008, 03:24:45 PM
Ya got "gamers".
Ya got "simmers".
Otherwise, there's no real argument.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: hitech on June 25, 2008, 03:09:08 PM
Quote
I performed many tests of this kind, and presented one to HTC as a prime example of the randomness of prop drag from plane to plane. We know that the P-51D has a much lower drag coefficient than the La-7. Yet, when you do the deceleration test with max drag of the prop (low pitch), the Mustang decelerates faster than the La-7 with the engines at idle. However, if you set high pitch, the La-7 decelerates much quicker than the Mustang. Thus, we know that that prop drag at low pitch is not modeled (and HiTech has stated this to be true). It is what it is.... I compiled a ranking of aircraft prop drag on some fighters.
We have stated nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Widewing on June 25, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
I should have stated that prop drag is modeled as an approximation.
Dale, do you remember our conversation on propeller drag? You said, "As I said in the beginning. It is do to prop drag, also understand that prop drag in AH is a close approximation, and isn't really a detail that we spend a lot of time on with each plane."
From this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192682.60.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192682.60.html)
Comparing power-off deceleration of the Spit16 vs the Spit14, we find that the higher drag Spit14 (greater flat plate area and a 5 blade prop) decelerates slower than the Spit16 (clipped wings, 4 blade prop). The weight difference between the two is nil. That leaves drag as the difference, and prop drag is "a close approximation". Is this a fair assessment?
I'm not complaining about it, just pointing out that it does effect how quickly (or not) aircraft bleed air speed at 1g. Knowing how quickly you can burn off E can provide a slight edge.
My regards,
Widewing
Edit: Had my Spitfire marks reversed....
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: RedAgony on April 16, 2015, 06:14:06 PM
Why cut your engine when you can just reduce throttle?
Also, being from the Army, I guess it's assumed that we are flying at lower altitudes than the fixed wing guys-- that's why power reduction or increase isn't mentioned.
1st Wings Level then 2nd Use IVSI to establish a climb
afterwards adjust collective and trim. TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS!
If you are in a battle damaged aircraft then you have just discovered the reason why a Backup Artificial Horizon Indicator is REQUIRED to be installed AND operational prior to all flights! :aok
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 16, 2015, 06:33:35 PM
1. Cutting engine doesn't make you roll faster or better, infact, if you arent careful you will kill even more E than you intended and can cause the fight to shift E states. It doesnt make you turn better and it doesn't make the plane perform better. I've been playing for 9-10 years. Trust me, I've tried it all, it doesn't make a difference and in many times hurts the engine cutter even more.
The only thing cutting engine does is help the plane flip over if at critical stall speed if you begin to go into a flat spin, at this point cutting the engine will help you stabalize out of the the flat spin, although it is a major E killer and most of the time puts you at a disadvantage. However, in the F4Us or spits, you some times still cannot get out of them upside down.
2. Rolling out gear in a F4U or any other plane is stupid. It critically kills your E. Against a good pilot they will pick up on that and shift toward E style which will end up in you stalling out as they roll over on top of you. The key in a fight isn't to give up all of your E by using these silly tactics, it is to measure speed with your ACM and plane performance to set up a shot. Cutting engines and rolling gear out tell me you've given up all your E states so I lighten up on the stick and and grab E while you are majorly slowing down. This allows me to roll over the top of you as you don't have the E to pull up and over any more.
DONT DO IT. IF YOU FLY THE PLANE CORRECTLY WITH THE CORRECT ACM YOU WILL ACHIEVE BETTER FLYING AND WILL BEAT ENGINE CUTTERS ALL DAY.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Obie303 on April 16, 2015, 06:35:08 PM
Try flying a Hurri 1 with a negative G turn. You can't run from anything, so forcing an overshoot is a great tool in a very limited toolbox of tricks.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 16, 2015, 08:16:03 PM
Try flying a Hurri 1 with a negative G turn. You can't run from anything, so forcing an overshoot is a great tool in a very limited toolbox of tricks.
But turning off your engine to force the bandit to overshoot or shutting off the engine at the top of a zoom climb isn't a "great tool" to have in a limited toolbox of tricks.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: The Fugitive on April 16, 2015, 08:42:37 PM
Also, being from the Army, I guess it's assumed that we are flying at lower altitudes than the fixed wing guys-- that's why power reduction or increase isn't mentioned.
1st Wings Level then 2nd Use IVSI to establish a climb
afterwards adjust collective and trim. TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS!
If you are in a battle damaged aircraft then you have just discovered the reason why a Backup Artificial Horizon Indicator is REQUIRED to be installed AND operational prior to all flights! :aok
bumping a 7 year old thread to add that........ oooooo kay
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: JOACH1M on April 16, 2015, 08:46:59 PM
arent they supposed to really pay attention to details? it's like answering a question from a pilot that flew in the vietnam war.
semp
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 16, 2015, 09:58:06 PM
Why is everyone whining about it if it doesn't work? Because it's not "realistic"? Being able to use WEP on takeoff is much less realistic than engine cutting.
Perspective, folks.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 16, 2015, 10:06:20 PM
Why is everyone whining about it if it doesn't work? Because it's not "realistic"? Being able to use WEP on takeoff is much less realistic than engine cutting.
Perspective, folks.
Flying inverted for half an hour isn't realistic either :D
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: RufusLeaking on April 16, 2015, 11:14:00 PM
In real life, how long does it take to restart a piston engine inflight?
How many switches?
Is it something to be done while dog fighting? (Never mind the Russian biplanes, which I think were the January plane on my WWII aviation calendar.)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: RotBaron on April 16, 2015, 11:26:38 PM
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Slade on April 17, 2015, 06:33:37 AM
Quote
Actually your plane has more drag at idle than with the engine turned off.
That is my understanding too.
[Sidebar] If you want to "put on the brakes" throw the rudder over to one side and drop your gear too. Also, if you are going too fast to drop your gear, with some planes I have found inverting then pulling back on the stick works well too (that is making the plane go up while inverted).
Anyone else have any "putting on the brakes" techniques? [/Sidebar]
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 17, 2015, 07:41:11 AM
[Sidebar] If you want to "put on the brakes" throw the rudder over to one side and drop your gear too. Also, if you are going too fast to drop your gear, with some planes I have found inverting then pulling back on the stick works well too (that is making the plane go up while inverted).
Anyone else have any "putting on the brakes" techniques? [/Sidebar]
Don't drop the gear, simply no point, you will kill more E than necessary.
In most cases you don't want to "put on the brakes immediately" either while diving on someone or getting them to over shoot.
Doing these extra things like cutting engine off and putting out gear severly effect your E states to where you actually put yourself into a disadvantage. Also if you are slow on the bottons your timing will be off and you will burn all your E while the other guy is gaining it. It simply isn't a smart thing to do.
How to "put on the brakes" If you are diving on someone you should spiral dive first and cut throttle to possibly get inside their nose up or down turn in hopes for a shot. You don't want to put on the brakes and try to stay on their 6 because they could easily barrel roll defense you and if you kill too much E you will die after they roll around you. Simply go full throttle and pull up and around. Next pass will be slower but chop throttle to make a shot and then if you miss gu n it and pull up and around again. You only want to chop throttle completely when you are finally slow on someone's 6 and they are attempting a BRD on you. If you are slow enough after a few pull arounds. Then you can work the throttle to get inside their BRD attempt. No need to turn off engine or pull out gear, as you will have completely lost your advantage and the fight could easily change tides from a skilled defensive pilot. If you get into a barrel roll scissor fight. You don't need to cut engine in order to get around faster, even the best pilots in the game do not ever cut engine unless they get into a flat spin situation, nor do the best pilots roll out gear. The key is timing, anticipation, throttle management, and understanding of your planes top performance in the stalls during your ACM.
If you are in a situation where someone is running up on your 6. You don't necessarily want to put on full breaks to get them to over shoot. This will hurt your E state and they will continue to BnZ you. Instead you want to try to get a little alt and do a nose down turn or attempt scissors technique into a BRD like explained in the first paragraph. BRD allow you to roll around a plane using their E against them. If they try to cut too much E and throttle, you can do the BRD and end up right on their 6. It is much more useful than trying to stick stir and lose all your E by cutting throttle to get them to over shoot.
All in all, it is basically an understanding of using the right ACM and tactics to get on an oppenets 6 or to reverse them if they are on your 6. Cutting engine and rolling out gear will effect your performance negatively and if you have a bad understanding of E, you will give up any chance of winning fights against good sticks that understand certain situations.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Slade on April 17, 2015, 08:23:15 AM
Cool feedback DmonSlyr. :salute
Quote
You don't necessarily want to put on full breaks to get them to over shoot.
My bad. I should have been clearer to say it as: "in situations where that is an appropriate option".
So you have found that landing gear does not add air resistance and increase the rate of deceleration? I wonder if that changed since I last tested this.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 17, 2015, 09:20:10 AM
My bad. I should have been clearer to say it as: "in situations where that is an appropriate option".
So you have found that landing gear does not add air resistance and increase the rate of deceleration? I wonder if that changed since I last tested this.
Sure, it would add resistance, but the rate of deceleration you are trying to achieve would actually hurt you in the grand scheme of the fight against a good stick. If you blow all your potential E by rolling out gear, it limits your ability to regain that E and your oppenent may change the tide by attempting E styles or a nice barrel roll defense you still cannot get inside. After they noticed you killed all your E rolling out gear, good stick would recognize you are killing all of your E and compensate by using scissors to gain E in order to flip over you. I mean, you'd see this from advanced sticks who know how to judge E, speed, and have timing to where they can avoid your shot attempts. By putting out gear you are killing your E rather than killing speed. In a fight killing speed is important at times, but killing E with gear down is dangerous!
For example. If you are diving on a plane and cut all of your speed to stay on their 6 and roll out gear to slow down even more, the guy could still use your E to his advantage and BRD, if he gets around you, you are dead meat because you killed all your E.
If you have a plane zooming on your 6. You want to avoid the shot with a nose down or up turn, and then attempt a BRD over them. Or get into a scissors and when the time is right BRD over them. You want to keep the most E as possible when making a plane over shoot so you may have a chance to get a shot off when they pass you. If you cut throttle and stick stir, it gives your oppenent an easier chance to pull up and over around. And once you are fluttering going 80 knots you make for an easy target.
Killing speed in a fight is different than killing E. I can kill a little bit of speed diving on a lower plane to try and get a shot off. But if I miss I can pour the coal to it and loop up and over for another try. I still have my E and height advatage after the over shoot. If I try to slow down immediately in order to make the shot and stay on their 6, this is dangerous because if they pull a nice BRD you won't be able to pull up and over because you killed all your E by letting out gear or trying to match their speed in the dive. It's about the experience of the pilot really and judging when it is a good time to kill the speed and stay on their 6 or to simply over shoot and pull around.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: jeep00 on April 17, 2015, 10:28:22 AM
It seems to me, with my limited experience doing this (never) and less limited experience witnessing it, that in game the engine "blip" allows a similar loss of air speed to cutting throttle, but the e retention seems to me to be considerably better with those who shut down vs cutting throttle. I.E. if I am already closing on them while throttling back and they cut off suddenly, I have gone full power yet they can stay on my six and climb, where those that have simply throttled back do not. Not a case of dissimilar aircraft either. Again, this is my experience with seeing it and my attempts to understand it. Gaming? Probably but there are plenty of other ways that it happens without this level of complaint.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 17, 2015, 11:04:16 AM
It seems to me, with my limited experience doing this (never) and less limited experience witnessing it, that in game the engine "blip" allows a similar loss of air speed to cutting throttle, but the e retention seems to me to be considerably better with those who shut down vs cutting throttle. I.E. if I am already closing on them while throttling back and they cut off suddenly, I have gone full power yet they can stay on my six and climb, where those that have simply throttled back do not. Not a case of dissimilar aircraft either. Again, this is my experience with seeing it and my attempts to understand it. Gaming? Probably but there are plenty of other ways that it happens without this level of complaint.
People complain about it because they feel like it gives them an excuse for why they lost:
"Well, he used a stupid gaming mechanic - in a game - to shoot me down. If I can whine and push HTC into fixing it, he can't kill me anymore and I'll be able to beat him next time."
A great example of the mentality surrounding this issue is a recent encounter I had with TwinBoom. He dove on me in an A-20 while I was flying a D9. I do cut my engine occasionally, and I had done it to him (and killed him) several sorties before. However, on this occasion, I did not cut my engine - I simply throttled all the way back. He overshot me due to poor speed control, and then dove to the deck, accusing me of cutting my engine and crying on 200 about how I needed to "engine burp" and that he outflew me, as my supposed cutting my engine (which never happened) was a sign of conceding to his better piloting skills. He then ran into his ack. His complaint had nothing to do with realism, but rather an excuse for why he overshot and lost his position, even though no such tactic was used.
For him, as with 99.9% of everyone else who complains about it, it's not about realism - it's about excuses. If realism were the primary concern, the complaints regarding engine "cutting" would be almost non-existent and we'd be hearing complaints about WEP on takeoff, flaps that auto-retract (instead of jamming or being ripped off), etc.
The irony here, assuming that there is some sort of measurable advantage to cutting one's engine, is that someone intelligent enough to figure out such a tactic has likely already invested more effort into learning the game and it's many other nuances much more than the pilot complaining about the tactic. Ergo, they'd likely beat you regardless of what tactics they chose to use. Of course, there's the glaring issue that no one can even substantiate claims that any kind of advantage comes from engine cutting, and even Hitech has stated there is none. In fact, all evidence points to engine cutting putting the pilot at a disadvantage. But, I digress.
It's VERY easy to kill an engine in flight and restart it - anyone who's pursued their multi-engine rating can do this without even thinking about it. Combat pilots would have memorized the same flow and been able to start/restart effortlessly. The only reason we don't see examples of it is because there was no reason or advantage to do so, which brings us to the crux of the argument.
If cutting ones engine in real life produces no benefit or effect, then why do we care here? If it's for realism, then you would both concede it IS realistic to be able to cut your engine, while at the same time agreeing it's a non-issue in comparison to the realism (or lack of) with other flight mechanics. That said, if we're going to insist that cutting one's engine does produce an advantage, then trying to "fix" engine on/off is completely backwards. If toggling your engine in flight gives a noticeable advantage, then there's an issue with the flight model that needs to be addressed - it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: -ammo- on April 17, 2015, 11:20:16 AM
If cutting ones engine in real life produces no benefit or effect, then why do we care here? If it's for realism, then you would both concede it IS realistic to be able to cut your engine, while at the same time agreeing it's a non-issue in comparison to the realism (or lack of) with other flight mechanics. That said, if we're going to insist that cutting one's engine does produce an advantage, then trying to "fix" engine on/off is completely backwards. If toggling your engine in flight gives a noticeable advantage, then there's an issue with the flight model that needs to be addressed - it's as simple as that.
Going further, you'll need to quantify the advantages - show exactly what advantage it is giving, how it works, and what it does. Otherwise, it's nothing more than mentioned - an excuse: "I feel it's giving him an advantage because he beat me with his engine off!!!"
To date, no one has done that. On the contrary, all posted data (much provided by Hitech and AKAK) has shown that cutting an engine results in a disadvantage.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Copprhed on April 17, 2015, 11:29:26 AM
Cutting your engine in a stall, helps drop the nose and bring the plane back under control. No "game gaming" there.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: glzsqd on April 17, 2015, 11:31:13 AM
Lol u guys r Dorks :neener:
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 17, 2015, 11:31:40 AM
Cutting your engine in a stall, helps drop the nose and bring the plane back under control. No "game gaming" there.
So we have two potential arguments from you here:
1) The plane is behaving normally, however cutting the engine results in quicker speed loss, dropping the nose faster (due to a quicker stall). While it may be unconventional, it's completely realistic. Yet again, it's not that real pilots couldn't or wouldn't do it, it's simply that there's little to gain from it in real life. However, in a game, that small .2 seconds of stall time might be the difference between a win and a loss. It's the same argument as pilots who shoot from 800yds+ in-game, where pilots in real life would rarely ever shoot beyond 200yds. It's simply what happens when real life is translated to a game.
2) You're implying that the plane is not behaving normally, because the nose shouldn't be able to drop as fast as it does with the engine off. This is incorrect, as the engine/torque does not affect the stall characteristics of the wings, especially in real aircraft. Seems to me if that if this was the case (and if your statement was correct), then it wouldn't matter if it was being gamed or not, as real aircraft do not hang nose-high in a stall due to the engine.
In either case, the tactic (if it works as you stated) would be legitimate and not "gaming the game," at least not any more than turning off a GV's engine is or shooting someone from 1,000yds out.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Slade on April 17, 2015, 11:41:13 AM
When to use it - the answer is always: it depends.
* Are you near your base or CV?
EDIT: Vital point here as DemSlyr pointed out you will lose a lot of E. Probably no making it home if you attempt this, even if it works, if you have a long flight home. ;-)
* What is your alt? High enough for a Split-S etc.? * How many cons are around you and what type planes are they? * Are you in a plane that can accelerate fast? * Are there cons around you in planes that can accelerate fast? * How much E does the con on your 6 have? etc.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 17, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
When to use it - the answer is always: it depends.
* Are you near your base or CV? * What is your alt? High enough for a Split-S etc.? * How many cons are around you and what type planes are they? * Are you in a plane that can accelerate fast? * Are there cons around you in planes that can accelerate fast? * How much E does the con on your 6 have? etc.
A great point. Another thing (which no one here has brought up) are other completely legitimate uses for it that would have been used in real life, or have real merit.
I commonly kill my engine when diving on large raids when coming from behind. There's no engine sound, so if I can get above them without them noticing me, they'll never hear anything until the rounds impact their cockpit.
I also kill my engine when the radiator is hit, to prevent the engine from blowing prematurely. I've glided back 4 grids, with less than 10k of altitude, using this tactic.
Killing your engine is also great for neutralizing torque and regaining control of an aircraft with no V-stab.
And the list continues, all of which are completely legitimate and/or historic uses of the tactic.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Copprhed on April 17, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
1) The plane is behaving normally, however cutting the engine results in quicker speed loss, dropping the nose faster (due to a quicker stall). While it may be unconventional, it's completely realistic. Yet again, it's not that real pilots couldn't or wouldn't do it, it's simply that there's little to gain from it in real life. However, in a game, that small .2 seconds of stall time might be the difference between a win and a loss. It's the same argument as pilots who shoot from 800yds+ in-game, where pilots in real life would rarely ever shoot beyond 200yds. It's simply what happens when real life is translated to a game.
2) You're implying that the plane is not behaving normally, because the nose shouldn't be able to drop as fast as it does with the engine off. This is incorrect, as the engine/torque does not affect the stall characteristics of the wings, especially in real aircraft. Seems to me if that if this was the case (and if your statement was correct), then it wouldn't matter if it was being gamed or not, as real aircraft do not hang nose-high in a stall due to the engine.
I'm not implying anything, as that was my first post on the subject, I believe, and don't have a negative opinion on cutting the engine. It's veracity, at least as to whether you can or not, seems to have been proven. Cutting the engine in my 110, or my 109 results in the nose dropping, often when it wouldn't otherwise. I've also used it in the spitfires. Sometimes it works in them, depending on the stall. Anyway, It can help get an overshoot, but if left off too long, the whole start cycle results, instead of just off then back on. The delay could hurt you in a fight. I say it's not gaming the game, as long as it COULD be done in real life. There's plenty of people out there ripping it around in fights that would probably have incapacitated many of the pilots who served in WW2, so what's the issue here? I have to agree, someone got beaten because of it and they think it's wrong....oh well.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tumor on April 17, 2015, 12:17:48 PM
Cutting engine, TRYING to get people on your 6 (as an advantage), fighting from 2ft off the ground, tail slide stalled inverted face shots, using net-lag, main-gunning aircraft... all part of being a "great" (chest thumping or not) AH player. You can't really call any one thing or the other "gaming the game", as AH has gone gamey already.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 17, 2015, 12:33:50 PM
As a person who's never flown a real plane, I simply fly the planes in AH to their performance standards in the game. It took over 5 years to understand how many (most) of the fighters in AH perform, as well as how many people fly them. You cannot expect a simulator to be that realistic, only realistic to an extent of how the planes were perceived to fly and then coading them that way. Plus all the extra button pushing would make this game even more difficult to learn.
Plus in real life you wouldn't be changing planes or flying solo or fighting against planes that were on the same side as you.
Using these maneuvers isn't gaming the game. It is playing the game as it is laid out for you. If you can't learn the essentials to understanding how each plane can perform that is the pilots fault for being in the wrong situation.
In real life I'd want the fastest plane and I wouldn't even consider turning the engine off one time. It would spell disaster.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: GhostCDB on April 17, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
I cut my engine when I need to. Never to make someone overshoot though, throttling back more effective in my opinion. I don't look at the realism of it or anything else in the game really. As long as it is a game there will never be a realism factor for me. Just a game.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Shamus on April 17, 2015, 12:54:43 PM
way back before the engine cutting craze I used to break off if a guys engine quit to let him ditch. The first few times I ran across engine cutters it cost me. Now I dont allow ditches.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Masherbrum on April 17, 2015, 01:04:46 PM
way back before the engine cutting craze I used to break off if a guys engine quit to let him ditch. The first few times I ran across engine cutters it cost me. Now I dont allow ditches.
We have had some epic duels and most kills for either of us were landing attempts because of oil hits, radiator hits, parts missing etc. For you and I, it was not about the name in lights. It was about practicing what we preached. I still think we would be the same in fights and we had some great ones over the years.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Scca on April 17, 2015, 02:06:36 PM
If realism were the primary concern, the complaints regarding engine "cutting" would be almost non-existent and we'd be hearing complaints about WEP on takeoff, flaps that auto-retract (instead of jamming or being ripped off), etc.
On the "flap monsters" (F4U, F6F and others), in real life the flaps auto retracted (https://books.google.com/books?id=tC22hsLZs9IC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=f4u+flaps&source=bl&ots=U6pN5yC-97&sig=fwEeDmdK7XAN-l-biJe0Syvvg7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oE0xVaGcJoG_sQSS2IBQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=f4u%20flaps&f=false) when things were operating correctly.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on April 17, 2015, 02:16:36 PM
I don't know about slowing down faster, but cutting the engine off helps neglecting the funky flight model when you go beyond the stall.
Also restarting an gas engine in flight is not hard as Skyrr mentioned, but rapid cooling and vapor lock might not make it instantaneous. I had numerous episodes where we had to fly around for a couple of minutes on one engine before getting the little *&^%$#@ would restart. Also on the fuel injected engines I flew there's a bit more involved than full rich. On the 402/414 or the 421 (it was an another life some time ago) you had to switch to main tank, set your prop forward of detent, set your mixture to full minus 2 inches and prime/motor the engine while playing with the mixture till it would 'catch', then keep massaging the mixture and power while gently bringing back the prop forward. It was no 'BOOM there she goes'. :old:
So is it realistic? No it is not, but it compensates for the short comings of the FM to make it more realistic. :angel:
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 17, 2015, 02:20:30 PM
On the "flap monsters" (F4U, F6F and others), in real life the flaps auto retracted (https://books.google.com/books?id=tC22hsLZs9IC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=f4u+flaps&source=bl&ots=U6pN5yC-97&sig=fwEeDmdK7XAN-l-biJe0Syvvg7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oE0xVaGcJoG_sQSS2IBQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=f4u%20flaps&f=false) when things were operating correctly.
A vast majority of the aircraft did not auto-retract. There are always exceptions, but you're citing the exception, not the rule. If we're discussing realism, the point stands.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Babalonian on April 19, 2015, 05:27:20 PM
Fuel pump on, mixture forward (1 hand motion). If the propeller is stopped, just push the starter. Less than a second.
Incorrect padawan.
Think how first one would kill their engine instantaneously while in flight.
Secondly, if you're flying (with forward speed supplying enough lift and control), and the prop isn't turning, you can try the starter, but if the prop isn't turning already, I doubt hitting the starter is going to change anything.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: saggs on April 19, 2015, 06:03:33 PM
In a radial air-cooled engine, the starting process is extremely complicated figuring 10-15 steps before even engaging the starter.. Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down.. Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted. THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform..
Shutting down a radial in flight is as simple as mixture to cutoff and mags off. Restarting is basically the opposite mags on, then bring the mixture up, since the prop is windmilling the engine (assuming you're not in feather) you do not even need engage the starter, and the engine driven fuel pump will still be turning as well. Although if the engine has been off long enough to cold soak, (more then a few minutes at altitude) you may need primer and boost before bringing the mixture up to restart it as well.
Hydro-lock (which is hydrostatic, not hydraulic) can only happen after sitting for an extended period of time, and with planes that are flown frequently it is not very common. In almost 2 years at my current job (where we fly dozens of P&W R2800s everyday) I've never heard of a hydro-lock incident.
It is true that starting a big radial is more complicated then starting turbines, (especially when cold) but it's not that bad. Heck, if I can do it, it can't be that hard. :D Our typical cold start procedure (without going into the whole aircraft configuration checklist) is basically: boost pump on low, engage starter, spin through 6 blades (4 crankshaft rotations with the gear reduction) to check for hydro-lock, 6 more blades just for for pre-oil, at 12 blades flip both on mags then hit the primer and boost, (at this point it'll sputter to life) keep on the primer as you slowly bring the mixture up to auto-rich, when you see a slight drop in RPM, release the primer and she should be running smooth. Of course the number of blades we spin through before start varies with how hot or cold the engine is.
Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified. People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic. Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..
I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling. But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten. When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down. Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on April 21, 2015, 04:13:56 PM
Restarting is basically the opposite mags on, then bring the mixture up, since the prop is windmilling the engine (assuming you're not in feather) you do not even need engage the starter, and the engine driven fuel pump will still be turning as well. Although if the engine has been off long enough to cold soak, (more then a few minutes at altitude) you may need primer and boost before bringing the mixture up to restart it as well.
I'll call good try but no. Not my experience with piston engines at all, maybe in the manual. At altitude 10,000ft + with the air density change good luck for a speedy restart. The flight manual of the P47 as summary as it is, doesn't even call for a restart attempt for engine failure hehehe. As I mentioned above, the 402 was a little S&^%$# between vapor lock and cold soak. It would restart right away with sputters if you'd switch tanks as it's starving for fuel (we had to run the tanks dry per company SOP, engine doesn't give you no warning, it just shuts down :rolleyes:).
As far as cold soak, when I would shut down my turbine in practice around 15K, the EGT would drop below 200 degrees within 30 seconds. In the metroliner, you would not hit the starter from a feather lazy windmill, you'd hit the unfeather pump and it would go again. The PC12 you hit the starter, I obviously never tried to shut it off in flight :D.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: caldera on April 21, 2015, 07:49:10 PM
Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified. People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic. Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..
I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling. But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten. When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down. Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.
The reason is that AH is a combat sim, not a flight sim. People want fast action, not ten minute warmups and checklists on the runway. Engine management might be OK for FSO but would be a drag in the MA.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: kvuo75 on April 21, 2015, 10:04:55 PM
i'm actually curious now, because in my admittedly brief experience with the flat 4's in frickin c172's, you pull the mixture to shut the mofo off. and if it's still windmilling, you can just push the mixture back to restart it. if the mags are still on of course.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: saggs on April 21, 2015, 10:13:44 PM
I'll call good try but no. Not my experience with piston engines at all, maybe in the manual. At altitude 10,000ft + with the air density change good luck for a speedy restart. The flight manual of the P47 as summary as it is, doesn't even call for a restart attempt for engine failure hehehe. As I mentioned above, the 402 was a little S&^%$# between vapor lock and cold soak. It would restart right away with sputters if you'd switch tanks as it's starving for fuel (we had to run the tanks dry per company SOP, engine doesn't give you no warning, it just shuts down :rolleyes:).
As far as cold soak, when I would shut down my turbine in practice around 15K, the EGT would drop below 200 degrees within 30 seconds. In the metroliner, you would not hit the starter from a feather lazy windmill, you'd hit the unfeather pump and it would go again. The PC12 you hit the starter, I obviously never tried to shut it off in flight :D.
OK... :aok
The P-47 manual is correct, if the engine has had a catastrophic failure all trying to restart it will do is cause more damage. But an engine that has not failed can be restarted.
I work for a company who flies dozens of R2800s everyday we have precautionary in flight shutdowns happen all the time. Usually they aren't restarted in flight, but sometimes they are (if they decide later they really need that engine even if they kill it, to climb over weather, or because another one started running even worse etc.) Also every FE has to do an in flight shutdown AND restart on their check ride.
Trust me, big radials can be restarted in flight, and it's not that big of deal. I don't have our procedure memorized (I'm a mechanic not an FE) but I know it calls for spinning it with the starter while still in feather to check for hydrolock, then using the feather pump and governor to get it spinning at the right RPM (I wanna say 1200, about where the governor comes in) boost pump on low, cowl flaps closed, maybe a little boost, and some primer if it's really cold, and she'll come to life.
Of course doing that on a cold engine is rather harsh on it, but if you're restarting a cold engine in flight that means you've got bigger problems.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: saggs on April 21, 2015, 10:23:14 PM
i'm actually curious now, because in my admittedly brief experience with the flat 4's in frickin c172's, you pull the mixture to shut the mofo off. and if it's still windmilling, you can just push the mixture back to restart it. if the mags are still on of course.
Correct. Assuming nothing is broken in with the powerplant. If the prop is spinning then so are the mags, and the fuel pump.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: saggs on April 21, 2015, 10:34:27 PM
The reason is that AH is a combat sim, not a flight sim. People want fast action, not ten minute warmups and checklists on the runway. Engine management might be OK for FSO but would be a drag in the MA.
I wouldn't want to see warm up time and start checklists and all that. I think even having auto cowl flaps and oil cooler doors and supercharger/blower controls and mixture is fine too. (Maybe make them check-able options like the stall limiter and combat trim)
The change I would like to see is making it so you can't just fly around at full throttle, full RPM all the time with no consequences. It seems to me (compared to flight and damage modeling) that it would be a simple thing to program the data for various aircraft about how long (assuming standard day) they could operate at full power, or METO, or WEP or with water injection before damaging engines.
The whole deal of running a corsair at full throttle and full RPM, for 45 minutes straight at MSL, and still having all temps and pressures in the green just ruins the immersion factor for me.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on April 22, 2015, 08:46:31 AM
The P-47 manual is correct, if the engine has had a catastrophic failure all trying to restart it will do is cause more damage. But an engine that has not failed can be restarted.
I work for a company who flies dozens of R2800s everyday we have precautionary in flight shutdowns happen all the time. Usually they aren't restarted in flight, but sometimes they are (if they decide later they really need that engine even if they kill it, to climb over weather, or because another one started running even worse etc.) Also every FE has to do an in flight shutdown AND restart on their check ride.
Trust me, big radials can be restarted in flight, and it's not that big of deal. I don't have our procedure memorized (I'm a mechanic not an FE) but I know it calls for spinning it with the starter while still in feather to check for hydrolock, then using the feather pump and governor to get it spinning at the right RPM (I wanna say 1200, about where the governor comes in) boost pump on low, cowl flaps closed, maybe a little boost, and some primer if it's really cold, and she'll come to life.
Of course doing that on a cold engine is rather harsh on it, but if you're restarting a cold engine in flight that means you've got bigger problems.
I'll go with that, engines do restart in flight. I'm debating the time it takes. I'd bet after a long shut down it's not 'engage ... poof ... there it is within 10 secs'. Definitely not AH style where you are stall backward at the top of an hammerhead :D BTW if you want to relocate Elko or Boise we are hiring mechs (PC12, Augusta 109/119) :old:
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: bustr on April 22, 2015, 01:16:50 PM
Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified. People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic. Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..
I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling. But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten. When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down. Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.
Ok, is this grounds for Hitech setting up the "Don't Move Your Controls Rapidly" function to the throttle? Then everyone will use the keyboard and stay away from using the analog throttle.
P47's have about 7 minutes of water and the NAVY radials a tad longer. And someone used to chime in about a spitfire pilot who pushed the throttle through the gate over the continent and forgot to pull it back until he was back over England. And the German Dalmer and BMW engines could run seemingly on over boost as long as there was liquid to inject.
Who knows, the WW1 arena was mentioned as a test arena for certain things. The radial engines could be killed by over revving them in dives on full throttle. I think I even killed the D7 engine like that once. Maybe something more will happen coming with AH3. How many years of wishes and complaints does Hitech have stashed away?
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: GhostCDB on April 22, 2015, 03:38:39 PM
Re-writing aerodynamics and flight manual scripts using this thread.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on April 22, 2015, 05:53:17 PM
I hate to tell you but gear being down increases drag which slows down the aircraft. Somebody needs to reteach you basic aerodynamics. :rolleyes:
:airplane: Not sure what his intent was, but the F4U series of aircraft, the main landing gear was used as a "dive" brake and it works pretty good in the game!
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tumor on April 23, 2015, 05:51:19 AM
:airplane: Not sure what his intent was, but the F4U series of aircraft, the main landing gear was used as a "dive" brake and it works pretty good in the game!
"...in a fight is dumb..." <<<<Pretty much covers it.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 23, 2015, 10:08:44 AM
"...in a fight is dumb..." <<<<Pretty much covers it.
Ah, the token blanket statement. And people wonder why the majority have such a hard time growing past a certain skill level...
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: -ammo- on April 23, 2015, 11:24:10 AM
I still argue this is a game - not a combat sim in the true sense. It's fun as can be or I and the many others that have stuck since 1999 would not be here.
As it is a game - if you agree with me, then everything you can squeeze out of your ride in a digital dogfight is a tool available until Dale decides otherwise. So, I say go for it if it is working for folks. Skyyr is able to use it effectively.
Anyone remember "death star B-17s" or the original "bomb**** B-17s"? The latter would spawn on the runway, wait for the vulcher to get close, and drop his ordinance taking out any closeby vulchers.
I do not doubt the ability to shutdown and restart an engine is realistic based on what I have read from pilots here, but no way do I buy a simple button or key click is realistic, nor do I believe a WWII pilot in his right mind would shutdown his engine to gain an advantage over an opponent (again - gamey tactic). Oh, and if said pilot had his engine shutdown for whatever reason in a dogfight, I doubt he could keep his eyes on his opponent while investigating the reason of the shutdown and restart the engine
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: JunkyII on April 23, 2015, 01:05:26 PM
:airplane: Not sure what his intent was, but the F4U series of aircraft, the main landing gear was used as a "dive" brake and it works pretty good in the game!
In this sense yes it can work if you dive in with "too much" E, some pull it out during scissors or rolling scissors...in those cases simple cross control works better for maneuver and dumps a lot of E as well.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Wiley on April 23, 2015, 01:35:21 PM
In this sense yes it can work if you dive in with "too much" E, some pull it out during scissors or rolling scissors...in those cases simple cross control works better for maneuver and dumps a lot of E as well.
I practically never used it as an airbrake except it was kind of nice on landing if you were coming in too fast. I've seen people that liked it for forcing the overshoot. I always found cross control sufficient to dump E in a fight as well.
'Gamey' things are there for people to use or not. Is a player morally superior to another for not using combat trim? What about if you manually trim, but you use it on the ailerons on the 109s that didn't have the capability?
The engine off thing really seems to tweak a lot of peoples' noses because of the relative ease compared to RL that we can restart the engine (varying depending on type), but is it really any much different from having your flaps available at a button click on your HOTAS to be run up and down in the middle of a fight? I'd be fairly confident saying the stuff the average F4U or P38 guy stallfighting in the game is doing doesn't look much like what was actually done in that plane in a real fight. Controlling stick, throttle, flaps, throw gear in there as well if one is so inclined... Not going to happen as fast as it does in game unless you're an octopus.
But is it fun? Oh hell yes.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Triton28 on April 23, 2015, 03:00:24 PM
Yes it's gamey. I'm sure almost every type of aircraft engine can be restarted fairly easily by someone IRL, but I'm also sure the reason you don't see a RL precedent for it is because there was probably a fair chance it wouldn't fire back up. All depends on the circumstances... which I don't expect and don't really want HTC to bother modeling.
Doesn't matter much though. Think of it has a crutch for people who can't control the torque of their airplane in a stall. :)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: kvuo75 on April 23, 2015, 03:37:32 PM
Yes it's gamey. I'm sure almost every type of aircraft engine can be restarted fairly easily by someone IRL, but I'm also sure the reason you don't see a RL precedent for it is because there was probably a fair chance it wouldn't fire back up.
well then there is the whole issue of the ww1 planes and blip switches.
they were shutoff-restarted instantaneously all the time.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 23, 2015, 05:13:40 PM
I'm also sure the reason you don't see a RL precedent for it is because there was probably a fair chance it wouldn't fire back up.
... or because it doesn't actually do anything of benefit in real life.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Zimme83 on April 23, 2015, 05:27:49 PM
This is a game and has very little with real life to do. Is here so we can pretend we are heroic fighter aces (without the boring stuffs like death etc). We fly planes that looks like the real deal and to some extent replicate their performance and caracteristics. but there are still so big difference btw AH and IRL that pretty much everything we do is "gaming the game". We belive we are top aces but truth is that very few of us would have survived in a fighter during WW2.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: bustr on April 23, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
Very few of us would have passed the physical and then ground school. Let alone basic flight training.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Zimme83 on April 23, 2015, 06:44:57 PM
Besides that. But it still a game, people should stop pretending its the real deal. it is not.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: ink on April 23, 2015, 06:48:38 PM
I still argue this is a game - not a combat sim in the true sense. I
Depends on how you "play" it. There are those who treat it AH as a Sim (fewer all the time). There are those who treat it as a game (who typically hate anything to do with a/the strategic aspect). The Skyyrs of AH drive the gamey game the game nonsense. (Now come references to his statistical awesomeness, and Tridents and stuff). To each his own, but IMO it's what driving this "game" into the dirt. Over the years, there's been a noticeable departure from what would be considered traditional simulated ACM, to win-at-all-costs gamey tricks that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with ACM. Still the best thing out there, but AH is in a sad state right now. I hope a graphics update brings improvement because losing AH would be a great loss.. it might even be the nail in the coffin of WW2 Flight "Games".
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tumor on April 24, 2015, 12:51:30 AM
--
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Scca on April 24, 2015, 10:28:31 AM
Depends on how you "play" it. There are those who treat it AH as a Sim (fewer all the time). There are those who treat it as a game (who typically hate anything to do with a/the strategic aspect). The Skyyrs of AH drive the gamey game the game nonsense. (Now come references to his statistical awesomeness, and Tridents and stuff). To each his own, but IMO it's what driving this "game" into the dirt. Over the years, there's been a noticeable departure from what would be considered traditional simulated ACM, to win-at-all-costs gamey tricks that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with ACM. Still the best thing out there, but AH is in a sad state right now. I hope a graphics update brings improvement because losing AH would be a great loss.. it might even be the nail in the coffin of WW2 Flight "Games".
I would have agreed with you back in 2004; but believe (in line with your thoughts) AH has become more and more a game. It's always been in the design with the base capture model - back then, many could have cared less and just wanted to dog fight back then - and some still do now. But more and more I observe the "win the war at all costs" mentality more prevalent (suicide jabos, bailing bomber pilots, etc). Too each his/her own. Everyone pays their $14.99.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on April 24, 2015, 11:35:49 AM
Depends on how you "play" it. There are those who treat it AH as a Sim (fewer all the time). There are those who treat it as a game (who typically hate anything to do with a/the strategic aspect). The Skyyrs of AH drive the gamey game the game nonsense. (Now come references to his statistical awesomeness, and Tridents and stuff).
The classic "you should play the way I play" argument. You clearly have no issue with "gamey" tactics (e.g. running WEP as much as possible), you just don't like "gamey" tactics that others use to beat you.
What's driving this game into the dirt is the "Get off my lawn!" community attitude (this thread is blatant evidence of that). Instead of either accepting the tactic (as it's clearly not cheating) or questioning why it would even result in an advantage (since the flight model is high fidelity), the community shows disdain, or otherwise insults, those who use the tactic, as if using game-based mechanical tactics to win makes one morally inferior.
Instead of upping your gameplay, you complain on the forums about realism... all while running your engine at WEP and rolling from a capped base, mashing your guns for 800yd shots. Your primary complaint isn't really about realism, it's about strategies which negate yours. Seems... ironic, coming from someone preaching strategy.
Also, focusing on skill is a strategy in and of itself.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Tumor on April 24, 2015, 01:23:06 PM
I would have agreed with you back in 2004; but believe (in line with your thoughts) AH has become more and more a game.
So very true. That said, it's apparently right where HiTech wants it (touch of sarcasm there, but hey... he said "Game" way way back).
It's always been in the design with the base capture model - back then, many could have cared less and just wanted to dog fight back then - and some still do now. But more and more I observe the "win the war at all costs" mentality more prevalent (suicide jabos, bailing bomber pilots, etc).
Agreed in part. The pure dogfighters have always been here... I am (was) referring to the tricksters. Those doing things that a) wouldn't even be possible in reality or b) no sane Fighter Pilot would do in the first place. I mean, why the heck not just bring on the X-wings and Tie Fighters? Mind you, I'm not advocating highly increased realism, that would be bad. The disagree part is, I do not think we are suffering from "win at all costs" attitude (uhm, strategically). Sure, they've always been here, always will be so long as being "killed" costs no more than a few minutes time. However, I disagree that today's suicide jabos, bailing bombers etc have much to do with winning the war attitude. Some folks get off on increasing their "social rectum" status. They just do, and right now there is no happy medium.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Zimme83 on May 05, 2015, 07:14:09 PM
As far as i have tested, cutting enginge has a significant affect on hammerheads and its a lot easier to kick the plane around with engine off. So my only conclusion is that it can give u an advantage to cut the engine if u are doing a hammerhead. (ie: roping someone)
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 05, 2015, 07:20:45 PM
As far as i have tested, cutting enginge has a significant affect on hammerheads and its a lot easier to kick the plane around with engine off. So my only conclusion is that it can give u an advantage to cut the engine if u are doing a hammerhead. (ie: roping someone)
go ahead and shut if off, all you're doing is just advertising an easy kill.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 05, 2015, 07:28:57 PM
As far as i have tested, cutting enginge has a significant affect on hammerheads and its a lot easier to kick the plane around with engine off. So my only conclusion is that it can give u an advantage to cut the engine if u are doing a hammerhead. (ie: roping someone)
No, it will not make the plane flip over any faster, however it may help you to get the nose over during critical stalling speed as your plane floats downward from sky ( not a stalling position you'd like to be in) typically used in a case of emergency getting the nose over. During a real stall fight or rope, cutting the engine would not be the ideal decision when trying to roll over on them.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Zimme83 on May 05, 2015, 07:32:22 PM
I don't use it in combat. I just tested it and there is no doubt that if u want to do a hammerhead its easier with engine off. I mostly fly Brewsters and Brewsters dont rope anything...
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on May 05, 2015, 07:37:24 PM
I don't use it in combat. I just tested it and there is no doubt that if u want to do a hammerhead its easier with engine off. I mostly fly Brewsters and Brewsters dont rope anything...
Testing it by using a Brewster? That is not testing anything lol, the plane could roll over on almost any plane in general and how could you justify that not in combat? I understand that your perception of rolling might be helped by cutting the engine but doing that in one of the best turning planes is not a true measure of judgment. Not to mention you run a huge risk of not turning it back on in time or losing valuable E vs a good opponent. I don't mean any offense, but just because you tested it a few times in a Brewster and started playing a year or so ago, doesn't mean that your arguement stands. You simply won't gain any affectivness out of it vs a really good opponent. It's like pressing one more button when you didn't have to that could potentially put you at a disadvantage vs a good stick. Why would you do that?
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Zimme83 on May 05, 2015, 08:30:05 PM
Lol. No i didnt use a Brewster for the test, i just said that in the MA im mostly flying the Brewster. And i have never turned engine off in a fight in the MA.
All i said was that if u want to do a hammerhead (turn plane around with rudder att stall speed and in a vertical climb) it is easier with engine off.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 05, 2015, 09:05:49 PM
go ahead and shut if off, all you're doing is just advertising an easy kill.
This has always been my thought on it. Cut your engine and you just told me in advance what you are planning on doing. What you hear can play a significant part in the game. Thats why I dont play music while playing.
I remember a few years ago I was watching an interview with I THINK it was a pony pilot who was going up against a 10 pilot who was pretty good. Where he managed to get an advantage was when he saw either it was a little puff of smoke or a pop of flame (I forget) come out of the 109's exhaust which indicated to him the 109 had chopped throttle. On that cue he was able to counter and get the kill.
While we dont have those sorts of high def visual cues here in AH we can hear the audible cue when an engine is shut down. And if you respond quick enough you can either get the kill or avoid the tactic if a gun solution isnt readily available
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: 38ruk on May 06, 2015, 02:26:37 PM
In a situation where you are following someone straight up a rope, and trying to get a gun solution at the edge of a stall , does cutting the engine negate the torque your fighting in a single engine plane to help you acquire a gun solution? Your already out of airspeed anyways and fighting engine torque , so does shutting it off negate some of the torque and offer an advantage in aiming ? I've never thought to shut down an engine in a single but i dont spend alot of time in them anyways .
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Vraciu on May 06, 2015, 03:22:39 PM
If Skyyr thinks it helps then I am inclined to believe him.
There have been many times I have wished I had the discipline to try it and see.
Control fidelity is a strange thing. In real life I see it all the time: ham-fisted guys on one end of the spectrum to caress the breast types on the other. I am the latter in real life. Probably closer to the former in here.
Some people just have the touch, to borrow from Chappy Sinclair. If you don't have it then engine cuts will not help you one iota.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: JOACH1M on May 06, 2015, 03:55:26 PM
Not sure............but I threw up in my mouth watching it. Geezus.
On the bright side..........I saw an actual La-7 today at a museum. After I attempted to dive away..........while remaining above ten thousand........I realized I was not in a Mustang and proceeded to take some lovely photos. Carry on.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: bustr on May 06, 2015, 07:04:00 PM
The internet is old enough he could have made it himself and only just got around to posting it.
Title: Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
Post by: Skyyr on May 06, 2015, 07:15:48 PM