Author Topic: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?  (Read 14760 times)

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2015, 11:04:16 AM »
It seems to me, with my limited experience doing this (never) and less limited experience witnessing it, that in game the engine "blip" allows a similar loss of air speed to cutting throttle, but the e retention seems to me to be considerably better with those who shut down vs cutting throttle. I.E. if I am already closing on them while throttling back and they cut off suddenly, I have gone full power yet they can stay on my six and climb, where those that have simply throttled back do not. Not a case of dissimilar aircraft either.
Again, this is my experience with seeing it and my attempts to understand it. Gaming? Probably but there are plenty of other ways that it happens without this level of complaint.

People complain about it because they feel like it gives them an excuse for why they lost:

"Well, he used a stupid gaming mechanic - in a game - to shoot me down. If I can whine and push HTC into fixing it, he can't kill me anymore and I'll be able to beat him next time."

A great example of the mentality surrounding this issue is a recent encounter I had with TwinBoom. He dove on me in an A-20 while I was flying a D9. I do cut my engine occasionally, and I had done it to him (and killed him) several sorties before. However, on this occasion, I did not cut my engine - I simply throttled all the way back. He overshot me due to poor speed control, and then dove to the deck, accusing me of cutting my engine and crying on 200 about how I needed to "engine burp" and that he outflew me, as my supposed cutting my engine (which never happened) was a sign of conceding to his better piloting skills. He then ran into his ack. His complaint had nothing to do with realism, but rather an excuse for why he overshot and lost his position, even though no such tactic was used.

For him, as with 99.9% of everyone else who complains about it, it's not about realism - it's about excuses. If realism were the primary concern, the complaints regarding engine "cutting" would be almost non-existent and we'd be hearing complaints about WEP on takeoff, flaps that auto-retract (instead of jamming or being ripped off), etc.

The irony here, assuming that there is some sort of measurable advantage to cutting one's engine, is that someone intelligent enough to figure out such a tactic has likely already invested more effort into learning the game and it's many other nuances much more than the pilot complaining about the tactic. Ergo, they'd likely beat you regardless of what tactics they chose to use. Of course, there's the glaring issue that no one can even substantiate claims that any kind of advantage comes from engine cutting, and even Hitech has stated there is none. In fact, all evidence points to engine cutting putting the pilot at a disadvantage. But, I digress.

It's VERY easy to kill an engine in flight and restart it - anyone who's pursued their multi-engine rating can do this without even thinking about it. Combat pilots would have memorized the same flow and been able to start/restart effortlessly. The only reason we don't see examples of it is because there was no reason or advantage to do so, which brings us to the crux of the argument.

If cutting ones engine in real life produces no benefit or effect, then why do we care here? If it's for realism, then you would both concede it IS realistic to be able to cut your engine, while at the same time agreeing it's a non-issue in comparison to the realism (or lack of) with other flight mechanics. That said, if we're going to insist that cutting one's engine does produce an advantage, then trying to "fix" engine on/off is completely backwards. If toggling your engine in flight gives a noticeable advantage, then there's an issue with the flight model that needs to be addressed - it's as simple as that.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 11:18:45 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline -ammo-

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2015, 11:20:16 AM »
The only reason we don't see examples of it is because there was no reason or advantage to do so, which brings us to the crux of the argument.


Why then are we witnessing it with an advantage to the user?



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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2015, 11:24:02 AM »

Why then are we witnessing it with an advantage to the user?

I already addressed that -

If cutting ones engine in real life produces no benefit or effect, then why do we care here? If it's for realism, then you would both concede it IS realistic to be able to cut your engine, while at the same time agreeing it's a non-issue in comparison to the realism (or lack of) with other flight mechanics. That said, if we're going to insist that cutting one's engine does produce an advantage, then trying to "fix" engine on/off is completely backwards. If toggling your engine in flight gives a noticeable advantage, then there's an issue with the flight model that needs to be addressed - it's as simple as that.

Going further, you'll need to quantify the advantages - show exactly what advantage it is giving, how it works, and what it does. Otherwise, it's nothing more than mentioned - an excuse: "I feel it's giving him an advantage because he beat me with his engine off!!!"

To date, no one has done that. On the contrary, all posted data (much provided by Hitech and AKAK) has shown that cutting an engine results in a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 11:29:17 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline Copprhed

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2015, 11:29:26 AM »
Cutting your engine in a stall, helps drop the nose and bring the plane back under control. No "game gaming" there.
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2015, 11:31:13 AM »
Lol u guys r Dorks :neener:
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2015, 11:31:40 AM »
Cutting your engine in a stall, helps drop the nose and bring the plane back under control. No "game gaming" there.

So we have two potential arguments from you here:

1) The plane is behaving normally, however cutting the engine results in quicker speed loss, dropping the nose faster (due to a quicker stall). While it may be unconventional, it's completely realistic. Yet again, it's not that real pilots couldn't or wouldn't do it, it's simply that there's little to gain from it in real life. However, in a game, that small .2 seconds of stall time might be the difference between a win and a loss. It's the same argument as pilots who shoot from 800yds+ in-game, where pilots in real life would rarely ever shoot beyond 200yds. It's simply what happens when real life is translated to a game.

2) You're implying that the plane is not behaving normally, because the nose shouldn't be able to drop as fast as it does with the engine off. This is incorrect, as the engine/torque does not affect the stall characteristics of the wings, especially in real aircraft. Seems to me if that if this was the case (and if your statement was correct), then it wouldn't matter if it was being gamed or not, as real aircraft do not hang nose-high in a stall due to the engine.

In either case, the tactic (if it works as you stated) would be legitimate and not "gaming the game," at least not any more than turning off a GV's engine is or shooting someone from 1,000yds out.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 11:49:01 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline Slade

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2015, 11:41:13 AM »
When to use it - the answer is always: it depends.

* Are you near your base or CV?

EDIT:
Vital point here as DemSlyr pointed out you will lose a lot of E.  Probably no making it home if you attempt this, even if it works, if you have a long flight home.  ;-)

* What is your alt?  High enough for a Split-S etc.?
* How many cons are around you and what type planes are they?
* Are you in a plane that can accelerate fast?
* Are there cons around you in planes that can accelerate fast?
* How much E does the con on your 6 have?
etc.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 11:48:44 AM by Slade »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2015, 11:46:05 AM »
When to use it - the answer is always: it depends.

* Are you near your base or CV?
* What is your alt?  High enough for a Split-S etc.?
* How many cons are around you and what type planes are they?
* Are you in a plane that can accelerate fast?
* Are there cons around you in planes that can accelerate fast?
* How much E does the con on your 6 have?
etc.

A great point. Another thing (which no one here has brought up) are other completely legitimate uses for it that would have been used in real life, or have real merit.

I commonly kill my engine when diving on large raids when coming from behind. There's no engine sound, so if I can get above them without them noticing me, they'll never hear anything until the rounds impact their cockpit.

I also kill my engine when the radiator is hit, to prevent the engine from blowing prematurely. I've glided back 4 grids, with less than 10k of altitude, using this tactic.

Killing your engine is also great for neutralizing torque and regaining control of an aircraft with no V-stab.

And the list continues, all of which are completely legitimate and/or historic uses of the tactic.
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Offline Copprhed

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2015, 11:55:06 AM »
So we have two potential arguments from you here:

1) The plane is behaving normally, however cutting the engine results in quicker speed loss, dropping the nose faster (due to a quicker stall). While it may be unconventional, it's completely realistic. Yet again, it's not that real pilots couldn't or wouldn't do it, it's simply that there's little to gain from it in real life. However, in a game, that small .2 seconds of stall time might be the difference between a win and a loss. It's the same argument as pilots who shoot from 800yds+ in-game, where pilots in real life would rarely ever shoot beyond 200yds. It's simply what happens when real life is translated to a game.

2) You're implying that the plane is not behaving normally, because the nose shouldn't be able to drop as fast as it does with the engine off. This is incorrect, as the engine/torque does not affect the stall characteristics of the wings, especially in real aircraft. Seems to me if that if this was the case (and if your statement was correct), then it wouldn't matter if it was being gamed or not, as real aircraft do not hang nose-high in a stall due to the engine.
I'm not implying anything, as that was my first post on the subject, I believe, and don't have a negative opinion on cutting the engine. It's veracity, at least as to whether you can or not, seems to have been proven. Cutting the engine in my 110, or my 109 results in the nose dropping, often when it wouldn't otherwise. I've also used it in the spitfires. Sometimes it works in them, depending on the stall. Anyway, It can help get an overshoot, but if left off too long, the whole start cycle results, instead of just off then back on. The delay could hurt you in a fight. I say it's not gaming the game, as long as it COULD be done in real life. There's plenty of people out there ripping it around in fights that would probably have incapacitated many of the pilots who served in WW2, so what's the issue here? I have to agree, someone got beaten because of it and they think it's wrong....oh well.
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Offline Tumor

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2015, 12:17:48 PM »
Cutting engine, TRYING to get people on your 6 (as an advantage), fighting from 2ft off the ground, tail slide stalled inverted face shots, using net-lag, main-gunning aircraft... all part of being a "great" (chest thumping or not) AH player.  You can't really call any one thing or the other "gaming the game", as AH has gone gamey already.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2015, 12:33:50 PM »
As a person who's never flown a real plane, I simply fly the planes in AH to their performance standards in the game. It took over 5 years to understand how many (most) of the fighters in AH perform, as well as how many people fly them. You cannot expect a simulator to be that realistic, only realistic to an extent of how the planes were perceived to fly and then coading them that way. Plus all the extra button pushing would make this game even more difficult to learn.

Plus in real life you wouldn't be changing planes or flying solo or fighting against planes that were on the same side as you.

Using these maneuvers isn't gaming the game. It is playing the game as it is laid out for you. If you can't learn the essentials to understanding how each plane can perform that is the pilots fault for being in the wrong situation.

In real life I'd want the fastest plane and I wouldn't even consider turning the engine off one time. It would spell disaster.
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Offline GhostCDB

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2015, 12:50:32 PM »
I cut my engine when I need to. Never to make someone overshoot though, throttling back more effective in my opinion. I don't look at the realism of it or anything else in the game really. As long as it is a game there will never be a realism factor for me. Just a game.
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Offline Shamus

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2015, 12:54:43 PM »
way back before the engine cutting craze I used to break off if a guys engine quit to let him ditch. The first few times I ran across engine cutters it cost me. Now I dont allow ditches.
 
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2015, 01:04:46 PM »
way back before the engine cutting craze I used to break off if a guys engine quit to let him ditch. The first few times I ran across engine cutters it cost me. Now I dont allow ditches.

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Offline Scca

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2015, 02:06:36 PM »
If realism were the primary concern, the complaints regarding engine "cutting" would be almost non-existent and we'd be hearing complaints about WEP on takeoff, flaps that auto-retract (instead of jamming or being ripped off), etc.
On the "flap monsters" (F4U, F6F and others), in real life the flaps auto retracted when things were operating correctly.
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