Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on June 29, 2008, 03:54:45 PM
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Yup, it's been sixty years.
Short facts....
The USSR blocked the transport of goods to those 2.000.000 people on the 26th of June in 1948. They first opened up again in May 1949, that gives some 10 months.
In that period, the USA and the UK airlifted some odd 23 MILLION tonnes of supplies to W-Berlin in some 278.000 sorties. Those were mostly flown from Wiesbaden and Frankfurt.
I salute the brave airlifters
:salute
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What? The U.S. and U.K. did something good for someone? INFEDEL!!! You shall be punished! :lol How soon the world forgets huh?! :salute
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How soon the world forgets huh?!
Sometimes, people do good things without regard or care for recognition. A wise man once talked about that at length.
In the case of Berlin, losing the city to Stalin would have been a disaster for the Western powers.
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Beautiful.
Again the same old propaganda crap about Evil Russians trying to starve poor Berliners.
I am happy that in Russian media they finally don't ignore that sad event, but try to explain the real resons behind the blockade.
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...but try to explain the real resons behind the blockade.
Evil reactionary trotskyists twisting the the words of Fuhrer Comrade Stalin, who was kept in the dark about the whole thing?
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Evil reactionary trotskyists twisting the the words of Fuhrer Comrade Stalin, who was kept in the dark about the whole thing?
I have posted it many times here. In brief: Western "allies" started to print new currency for their occupational zones, and wanted to pay for supplying West Berlin with occupational marks, that were printed in London and were still accepted in Soviet zone.
Another thougt: Do you really believe that "airlift" could feed all the Berlin's population?
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Beautiful.
Again the same old propaganda crap about Evil Russians trying to starve poor Berliners.
I am happy that in Russian media they finally don't ignore that sad event, but try to explain the real resons behind the blockade.
Sorry buddy, im not usually one to just outwardly accuse a country of something, but I really don't:
1) see any possible "kind"/"not-evil" motive for that blockade
2) See any reason whatsoever to trust what you see on T.V. Documentaries ESPECIALLY in Russia. No offence, but your country doesn't have a very good record of being honest with their people.
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Sorry buddy, im not usually one to just outwardly accuse a country of something, but I really don't:
1) see any possible "kind"/"not-evil" motive for that blockade
See my post above.
"Allies" issued new currency for their zones, while still printing "occupational marks" that were issued in Moscow and London. So they forced a huge ammount of now-useless money to flow into Soviet zone, literlally making Soviet Union pay the bills issued in London, and it happened in 1948, when half of the USSR was still in ruins, less then a year after a famine of 1947. And they also wanted to pay Soviets for supplying their zones in West Berlin with this useless paper. So, USSR refused to accept it and wanted to get paid in hard currency.
The severity of the "blockade" is seriously exaggerated, West Berlin got most of the supplies from market, not from the "airlift".
2) See any reason whatsoever to trust what you see on T.V. Documentaries ESPECIALLY in Russia. No offence, but your country doesn't have a very good record of being honest with their people.
Nor does your country. You need to understand that 90% of what you learned about USSR from your media is nothing but a lie.
I have never heard of Berlin blockade before TahGut asked me here about it, so I had to dig into some books and found out the Soviet side of the story. Look, Stalin was rational. Do you really think that Evil Russians (tm) just wanted to starve poor Berliners because they were bloodthirsty savages and it was their natural behaviour?
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See my post above.
"Allies" issued new currency for their zones, while still printing "occupational marks" that were issued in Moscow and London. So they forced a huge ammount of now-useless money to flow into Soviet zone, literlally making Soviet Union pay the bills issued in London, and it happened in 1948, when half of the USSR was still in ruins, less then a year after a famine of 1947. And they also wanted to pay Soviets for supplying their zones in West Berlin with this useless paper. So, USSR refused to accept it and wanted to get paid in hard currency.
The severity of the "blockade" is seriously exaggerated, West Berlin got most of the supplies from market, not from the "airlift".
Nor does your country. You need to understand that 90% of what you learned about USSR from your media is nothing but a lie.
I have never heard of Berlin blockade before TahGut asked me here about it, so I had to dig into some books and found out the Soviet side of the story. Look, Stalin was rational. Do you really think that Evil Russians (tm) just wanted to starve poor Berliners because they were bloodthirsty savages and it was their natural behaviour?
Oh I agree! I do not trust much of anything our television tells us! I do however trust a good friend of mine who spent the better part of his life as a fighter pilot in the Soviet Union.
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Oh I agree! I do not trust much of anything our television tells us! I do however trust a good friend of mine who spent the better part of his life as a fighter pilot in the Soviet Union.
You mean Belenko? Is he still alive? Or maybe he's living in a cardboard box after his CIA "friends" abandoned him?
I gave you a Soviet POV on blockade of Berlin, looks like you have nothing to answer? Do you really think we are just evil and want to kill everyone?
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You mean Belenko? Is he still alive? Or maybe he's living in a cardboard box after his CIA "friends" abandoned him?
I gave you a Soviet POV on blockade of Berlin, looks like you have nothing to answer? Do you really think we are just evil and want to kill everyone?
We don't have to answer, history does it for us.
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We don't have to answer, history does it for us.
What? History?
That crap they show on "history channel"? LOL :D
Bunch of liars justifying their war-crimes and mass-murders, that's who feeds you "history". Goebbels could be proud.
I gave you a reasonable explanation to blockade of Berlin, you still stick to "evil commies" and other propaganda crap. Is the mental damage already unrecoverable?
Even after your so-called "capitalism" that you are so proud of will finally collapse, and it seems to me that 1929 will be remembered as a "golden age" compared to what's about to come, you'll still say that it was Communism that "failed" because it "can't work" because they said it on the TV.
Look, your system is already agonizing, unable to withstand 1% of what my country faced in XX century. History, you say!? :rock
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Boroda, why would the allies fly so much stuff around if Berlin actually had access to most goods?
Even if what you say about the worthless money is true (in light of the emerging cold war at the time it just might).. do you think it was a good idea to cut off Berlin from supplies which, if nothing had be done, would have caused two million people to starve?
There are a lot of people who don't buy into all of the negative propaganda against your country during the cold war, however, in this case, the "evil russians" (you play the victim card so often, there's no need for that) brought that image on themselves just fine.
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Look, your system is already agonizing, unable to withstand 1% of what my country faced in XX century. History, you say!? :rock
:lol The only way to starve here is go hiking and get lost. Don't confuse whining with agonizing.
And Communism didn't last 10 seconds. If an IL2 plant in ww2 met high production goals, they received bonuses. That is Capitalism.
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I suppose you have a "good" reason for the Berlin Wall as well? How about all the people that were shot trying to get out of East Germany by Soviet Border Guards and Red Army personel? Many of these incidents were caught on film by news crews from all over the world.
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Boroda, why would the allies fly so much stuff around if Berlin actually had access to most goods?
Even if what you say about the worthless money is true (in light of the emerging cold war at the time it just might).. do you think it was a good idea to cut off Berlin from supplies which, if nothing had be done, would have caused two million people to starve?
2 326 406 tons were delivered by Western pilots. Do you seriously think it was enough to supply the huge city with food, fuel and all things?!
Most of the supplies were smuggled from Soviet zone, I hope you remember that a Wall was built only in 1961. In Autumn 1948 George Marshall got an intelligence report saying that the blockade is ineffective.
What we get as a result: brilliant propaganda show, that cost lives of 70 brave pilots.
If your regime didn't want them to starve - they'll probably not start this crap with new currency or pay Soviets with solid gold, instead of declaring that starving Soviet people should give their last shirt to the West. Look, in 1947 millions of people in the USSR were starving, I mean - starving to death.
Altruism from so-called "free world countries"??? Worst nonsense I have ever heard.
There are a lot of people who don't buy into all of the negative propaganda against your country during the cold war, however, in this case, the "evil russians" (you play the victim card so often, there's no need for that) brought that image on themselves just fine.
Victim card!? We get blamed for everything you guys diddlyed up in XX century just because we didn't want to die, and you call it a "victim card"!? You guys will sooner or later make us understand that we have nothing to loose, and if we'll try to do at least 1/2 of what we got accused of - you'll regret it.
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2.3 Million tonnes for 2 million (?) people means a ton of goods per person, - at least.
I guess they didn't need that in the first place, since the bear was playing kind to them :D
Same old Boroda..........
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2.3 Million tonnes for 2 million (?) people means a ton of goods per person, - at least.
I guess they didn't need that in the first place, since the bear was playing kind to them :D
Same old Boroda..........
Only a ton of goods for a year? How about coal? How about other commodities? How about fuel for power-stations, cars, etc?
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"wow"...is all I can say here.
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And Communism didn't last 10 seconds. If an IL2 plant in ww2 met high production goals, they received bonuses. That is Capitalism.
Who said we had Communism here? We had Soviet Socialism. And it's original version was built on bonuses, the stagnation began in mid-50s when Nikita thought that it's a good idea to save money on motivation.
You guys really don't know anything about life in USSR.
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Sometimes, people do good things without regard or care for recognition. A wise man once talked about that at length.
In the case of Berlin, losing the city to Stalin would have been a disaster for the Western powers.
JFK, RIP :(
Hah, they had already lost Berlin in WW2, Stalin played USA and Britain in one of the biggest con tricks in history.
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any thread with Boroda in it is a good one(http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/forums/uploads/post-3012-1185415263.gif)
:salute to the brave airlifters
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Boroda,read this. Have a beer before you do it :D
Here is the USSR point of the blockade:
"The Berlin Blockade (June 24, 1948 – May 11, 1949) was one of the first major international crises of the Cold War. During the multinational occupation of post-World War II Germany, the Soviet Union blocked the three Western powers' railroad and street access to the western sectors of Berlin that they had been controlling. Their aim was to force the western powers to allow the Soviet controlled regions start supplying Berlin with food and fuel, thereby giving them nominal control over the entire city."
Here is the Allied response:
"In response, the Western Allies formed the Berlin Airlift to supply the city over pre-arranged air corridors. The effort was initially viewed with skepticism even in the countries mounting the attempt, as this sort of logistical effort had never been mounted before; the airlift to supply the German 6th Army at Stalingrad required 300 tonnes per day and rarely came even close to delivering this, the Berlin effort would require at least 5,000 tonnes a day, well over ten times as much. In spite of this, by the spring of 1949 the effort was clearly succeeding, and by April the airlift was delivering more cargo than had previously flowed into the city via rail."
And here is the results:
"The success of the Airlift was humiliating to the Soviets, who had repeatedly claimed it could never possibly work. When it became clear that it was, the blockade was lifted in May. One lasting legacy of the Airlift are the three airports in the former western zones of the city, which served as the primary gateways to Berlin for another fifty years."
As for the coals, they were flown in when the blockade lagged into the winter. Actually, Berlin needed about 1.500 tonnes of food per day out of the 5000 tonnes flown in. When the coal transport went full power, there actually was enough coal, although the coal supplies of the city went down to a week's supply at one point.
BTW, at the time there was serious shortage of i.e. coal in eastern Europe. One sad incident for us flight geeks was that the famous "Colditz cock", the secretely built glider for a planned escape from Colditz castle was chopped down for the fire.....
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Boroda,read this. Have a beer before you do it :D
Here is the USSR point of the blockade:
"The Berlin Blockade (June 24, 1948 – May 11, 1949) was one of the first major international crises of the Cold War. During the multinational occupation of post-World War II Germany, the Soviet Union blocked the three Western powers' railroad and street access to the western sectors of Berlin that they had been controlling. Their aim was to force the western powers to allow the Soviet controlled regions start supplying Berlin with food and fuel, thereby giving them nominal control over the entire city."
Unfortunately I am at the big office now and can't afford my usual beer-at-work :)
Look, I use Occam's razor, the text above is a figment of some imagination when it comes to explaining reasons for blockade. Soviets were not so stupid to force Berlin to take supplies from them. Who you think supplied the enclave before the blockade? :D
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(http://homepage.mac.com/m5comp/trekbits/trekpics/amok/amok_04.jpg)
"Keptain, actually Berlin WANTED to be blockaded, as food shortages, a RUSSIAN invention I might add...
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Unfortunately I am at the big office now and can't afford my usual beer-at-work :)
Look, I use Occam's razor, the text above is a figment of some imagination when it comes to explaining reasons for blockade. Soviets were not so stupid to force Berlin to take supplies from them. Who you think supplied the enclave before the blockade? :D
Berlin was supplied by rail. From the west.....
Tell me, what is your opinion for the reason behind the blockade?
BTW, I have zig-zagged E-Europe to some extent, and oddly enough, all the inhabitants that I met must have sonspired, for they all have stories of between shortage and starvation from the USSR. Odd, isn't it?
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Berlin was supplied by rail. From the west.....
Tell me, what is your opinion for the reason behind the blockade?
Sure, electricity, water, stove gas and other things were supplied by railway :D
I have wrote the real reasons above, this thread isn't too long to fing it.
BTW, I have zig-zagged E-Europe to some extent, and oddly enough, all the inhabitants that I met must have sonspired, for they all have stories of between shortage and starvation from the USSR. Odd, isn't it?
Shortage and starvation? Why didn't your vis-a-vis just go work and earn some money to buy everything in the market for a little more money then fixed government price? :uhoh
Last real starvation happened in 1947. Were they old enough to remember that?...
BTW if you'll come to Eastern Europe again - maybe you'll visit Moscow or Leningrad so we can drink a glass or two? ;)
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Not so sure how electricity was supplied and how reliable it was. Nor about it's source, since powerplants running on either coal or oil can create electricity.
In the summertime in Berlin, you can easily get around the usual business without heating, if you just have something to cook, and cook with.....The real trouble began when winter arrived..
As for shortage and starvation in E-Europe, you really shought check out the Baltics....like Lithuania.
They were sort of saved by the existance of potatoes, and had to go around for long with a secret stock.
Their opinion of the USSR, well, let's say that a Russian flagging your opinions in Vilnius would not be very safe.....
I was in Poland as well, they would joke about that when a soviet soldier asked for the time, it was to check if you had a watch, so it could be taken.
The landlady where I stayed worked as a store displayer, - putting products in the windows. The catch was, that most of the time she was displaying products that were not available. (except for the ones in the window), so no money would buy you anything :D
Now we may know little of the life in the former USSR, but I claim that I know more than you about some sides of the life in the USSR occupied countries.....And I have the west to compare with :D
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Oh, and Moscow, absolutely want to go there. But how is Leningrad?
And if you have to jump the pond remember that little island. Will give you a ride as well as the local...cough...Schnapps :D