Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on June 30, 2008, 12:45:38 AM
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I'm a few months into my AH2 "experience" and I have noticed that here on the BBs the better sticks are pretty darn knowledgeable about the various strengths and weaknesses of most aircraft models. So, I decided a few weeks ago to start flying models that i don't have much time in, in the interest in learning their capabilities. Over the last few weeks I have upped various 109s and read what I can find about how to fly them. I'm by no means a good 109 stick, but I feel that I have benefited from the experience.
Well, that said, I thought that I might get some time in the various 190 models during this up coming tour.
I'm hoping that a few of you guys with more skill will give me a quick run down and/or any pointers etc for flying the 190s.
I'm curious to hear your opinions and impressions of the different models and how they compare as well as any general tips and techniques for getting the most from the 190s. Also, any good films will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance. :salute
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The 190 is known as, and most commonly known used, a cherry picking boom and zoom plane. Why? Well, because that's what it's good at. You generally don't 'fight' in 190's, you 'kill' in them. I've said that the 109 is a fighter and the 190 is a killer. No fancy stuff, just get in, fill the enemy full of holes, and get out, fast.
However, if you want to close-in fight in the 190, keep some things in mind;
Never, ever, ever turn it. The 190 is the worst turning single engined a/c in the game.
The 190 has one of the highest roll rates in the game, try to use this to your advantage.
It has below average sustained climb and acceleration, but great zoom climb and E retention.
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Fight in the 190's as if you are fighting on the inside of a straw. IE don't spend time in the horizontal.
Don't be discouraged by the poor over the cowling visibility for setting up shots. The shots will come, but don't compromise a good alt advantage by nosing down for too long to set up a shot. The 190 is in trouble when low and slow.
That said, don't be afraid to hang on the prop a bit (especially in a D9 or A5) when roping a bandit. The Dora (D9) will climb very well in most MA altitudes, and in general the 190's have enough armor to take a few pings from a roped foe that is quickly running out of E. Use flaps at the top of the vert to get the nose back down quicker.
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Fast roll rate as best asset = fast direction changes = it pays off big time to have reflexes and make decisions as quick as possible.
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First of all, understand the difference in the models.
190A-5: Best turner of the group and probably the lightest. Like the D-9, only two fuel tanks.
190A-8: Best gun package of the group and thus the best buff hunter. An extra fuel tank offers extended range, it's heavily aromored and can really take a beating but is, along with the F-8, the slowest of the group.
190D-9: Among the fastest aircraft in the game. A pure B'n'Z fighter.
190F-8: Performance similar to the A-8, the F-8 is the best ground attack plane of the family. The bomb and the rockets are deadly to GV's. Don't fire the rockets until the GV has just passed out of sight under your nose.
Ta152-H: Among the best high-alt fighters in the game. Very fast over 20K, good gun package and glides forever if the engine quits (It's prone to radiator damage). The 152 is slowest in a dive (you need to keep it in the 450 range where the others are good for 600+).
That said there are many similarities among them:
Keep the 190 fast whenever possible. The common "It can't turn" wisdom is false. You can flat-turn for ~540 degrees before it starts to lose speed and you have to exit. When turning, never turn so hard that the stall buzzer sounds. That said, if you sense the other pilot isn't as good as you, you can dump as many as all three notches of flaps and go for it. The first set will engage at ~175 mph. If you start to lose ground, pull the flaps in, hit WEP to extend, then turn back and re-set the fight. I wouldn't do this until you have quite a bit of experience though. The 190's, particularily the A-8, have a nasty snap-roll when slow that will auger you if you don't feel it coming.
Use the 190's incredible (best of any plane) roll rate to rotate your lift vector for instantaneous changes in direction. The 190's dont climb that well sustained, but are among the best zoom-climbers with a head of steam. Use this, along with your roll rate to fight in the vertical rather than sustained horizontal turns. A zoom climb with a 180 degree roll at the top and a reverse back down will score you a lot of kills (this also works great in the 109K-4 BTW).
Defensively, if you've gotten yourself into trouble and have air under you, a defensive spiral or a straight dive will often get you clear. Not many planes will hang with you at 600 mph. If your stuck on the deck with someone saddled-up, then a flat or rolling scissors are your best bets. Unless the opponent knows what he's doing, you can often force an overshoot or bring it to a nose to nose fight where you can get a high forward deflection.
Good luck. The 190 is an awsome plane once you learn to fly it.
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Some random D9 thoughts:
Its an E fighter vrs everything, an angles fighter vrs. nothing but another 190. Winning maneuvering fights will usually involve having or getting a energy advantage, no ifs, ands or buts.
Find the right mission for it.
Upping from a capped base to tnb among the trees? Not so much.
D9 is a great jabo interceptor, with its climb, speed, dive, and accurate firepower. Remember, if you get them to skin ords and turn, mission accomplished, no matter whether you get them or not.
D9's WEP replenishes faster than any other aircraft I've flown. Must be the big radiator. More on that later... Run the WEP hard and use the climb rate to get above incoming if you have to.
Buff hunting is a little trickier. It can climb quickly to most MA altitudes. OTOH, it has a radiator that likely WILL be shot out if the buff can get in even a few pings. If you buff hunt much in the D9, you'll learn now to glide/nurse birds with holed radiators back to base. Avoid any and all HOs like the plague for this very reason.
The primary strength of the guns is their positioning. The 13mm MGs are cowl-mounted, the 20mm Cans are close together in the wing root (They are synchronized to fire through the prop arc.). This concentrates alot of fire with minimal convergence issues. You can learn to ping straight-and-level targets at 500 yards with them.
Remember, in offense or defense, you CAN bloody well turn in the right range of speeds. That means if that Runstang is trying to dive away at 450mph, go ahead and run him down, cut throttle, and saddle up long enough to get the kill. That means that if are tooling along at 375 and a Spit dives on you, don't panic. You are still fighting at a speed where you maneuver well enough. Go ahead and go a little nose down, cut the throttle, hit a barell roll or a descending spiral. Your faster E-bleed will do the trick.
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The 190 is one of those planes that just about no one "goes for it" in. You can use that psychology to your advantage.
It's not fantasy to think you can beat a Spitfire in a knife fight with one, assuming you surpise the heck out of him with an aggressive merge. Miss the first snapshot, however, and you might not get another chance. The nice thing is, with the firepower you're packing, if you hit that snapshot, you're golden.
Seeing how you're so new, I suppose it's wrong for me to go and tell you that ^, but since you're eager enough about learning to post, I'm assuming that's where you'd like to wind up some day. There's only one way to get there: keep trying.
(It should save you several hours worth of premature climbouts if you went into the TA with a buddy for the first several hundred tries, however).
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For turnfighting the D9, watch out for its snaproll. If you pull back on that stick suddenly at any speed you'll roll it right into the ground. I have snap roll the D9 at 400 knts before and auger when I try to pull hard to get out of a dive. It snaproll at almost any speed, but it's easier to snaproll when you are doing 200 knts while trying to turn. I tried to turnfight the D9 but not very successful at it. I can usually hang on for about 1-2 min with a spit turnfighting it but I usually don't win.
Your best defend in a D9 otd tnb is that roll rate, which can be use to dodge rounds as the enemy try to get a snapshot at you in the scissor. In the D9, try to keep it off stalling speed, it won't roll right as well at low speed (such as under 100 knts). To counter that you gotta kill throttle to roll right.
If you love the D9 as much as me, try to BnZ it. It will get frustrated if you tnb the D9 and die a gazillion of time. It's good to push its limit and see how far it goes, so you know the plane. It just get old after a while. D9 is probably one of the best BnZ plane out there, plenty of rounds. It handles very well at high speed. It's the 4th best climber to 10k. Killing stuff is very easy in the D9, but staying a live in it is a challenging task. You'll find yourself getting chase by 2-3 turnfighter planes all the time.
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So I've been upping some 190s yesterday and today. Mostly the 190A8 simply because ENY was blocking the D9 today.
I've also started reading what I can on the 190s. I noticed on Soda's site that he suggests taking the 4 20mm gun package rather then the 30mm package. I'm curious to hear what some of you guys think on the matter. I've been flying with the 30mm package but am wondering if I might be better off with the 4 20mm guns instead. My gunnery skills, shall we say, are still improving, and I wonder if the 30mm guns are a bit wasted on me at this point.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
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I always take the 2x20/2x30 package. Never leave home without them :)
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I never take the 30mm gun package. 4x20mm is enough firepower to shred any target while having longer firing time. Also I avoid problems due to the very different ballistic properties of 20 and 30 mm cannons that way.
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I usually take 2x 20mms unless I'm buff hunting.
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Discovered the 190A5 this evening. Got a few kills pretty quickly with it, it felt good. I'm told that the A5 is a bit more "turny" then some of the other 190s. Is this impression correct? It certainly feels more "turny". What are the biggest drawbacks with the A5?
I've posted quite a few kills in a Mossie and I actually like flying A20s also, I wonder if the 190A5 is somewhat similar in flight cxharacteristics to these two heavier craft.
Just tossing out ideas here. I find that BBS discussions like these can actually provide a great deal of info.
Thanks in advance.
:salute
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Keep in mind, while the A5 turns best of the all the 190s, it still turns worse than just about all aircraft that are not 190s.
This means that you stand a decent chance of pwning a lesser Jug or Pony pilot in a pure turn fight, and not much else.
Pirouette and low-yo yo can get you shots people don't think are there sometimes though, because they are "out-turning" you.
Discovered the 190A5 this evening. Got a few kills pretty quickly with it, it felt good. I'm told that the A5 is a bit more "turny" then some of the other 190s. Is this impression correct? It certainly feels more "turny". What are the biggest drawbacks with the A5?
I've posted quite a few kills in a Mossie and I actually like flying A20s also, I wonder if the 190A5 is somewhat similar in flight cxharacteristics to these two heavier craft.
Just tossing out ideas here. I find that BBS discussions like these can actually provide a great deal of info.
Thanks in advance.
:salute
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Also try these sites.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
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http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Been checking them both out. Those sites have their uses and are fantastic sources. Must say I seem to learn as much, if not more, from these BBs threads where more experienced sticks "talk/argue" about things.
Appreciate the help, thanks.
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I highly recommend the 190a5 with the 2 x 20mm gun package. The heavier gun package has the two MMFF's which come with crappy ballistics. Taking these out will help lower your weight.
Take 100% fuel and no DT, you'll have a good amount of flight time and no shackle on the bottom of your plane slowing you down.
Last but not least: Go have fun! People see a 190 icon and expect a BnZ pass that is easy to avoid if you keep an eye on them. Imagine their surprise when you attack, use the phenominal roll to keep the direction of the fight changing as you work in for the 6 shot. Flying this setup really helped me learn about what a scissors fight is all about. Useful lessons to be used in any plane.
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While the bomb rack does add a little drag, it's only a few mph (less than 5?) and overall not a major deterrent. The bomb rack does add WEIGHT however, so you'll have about ... er... what was it? 160lbs? For the rack gear. Again, on an 8000lb plane, not too much.
The 190A5 has lesser quality MG/FF on the outboard position. However, these are still 20mm cannon. While their explosive load is a bit less than the other cannons, it is still powerful enough to rip a plane up if it hits.
The ballistics are different, but they do make a difference. You can and will get hits with them.
Don't misunderstand, I like the 2-gun loadout as well, but I will often dogfight with all 4 guns just because it means my snapshots are that much better. I will also dogfight with 30mm in the 190a8. Doesn't mean it will turn the best, but you don't want to get into turn fights anyway.
Use vertical moves. Jink one way, then reverse back, rate of roll, climb, dive, loop, you can be quite agile, as long as you don't flat-turn. The only exception is when you're pulling for a shot and the target turns hard. That's where you'll get in trouble more often than not.
Use your WEP, you have 10 minutes of it. However don't forget that sometimes you'll do certain moves better if you back off the throttle. You may find the gas is a bit light. I like longer sorties, and if I take only internal on the A-5 I usually end up cruising more to conserve gas.
For combat, you don't need alt, but speed is good. I don't mean mach 2.5, but a decent rate of speed (250+) is really required for effective manuvering.
I was once bounced (at 12k) by a higher P-51 (~17k), and saw he was going to simply bounce me til I was worn down. I was climbing up when I saw his dot getting nearer, so I leveled out. When I realized the situation, I basically reversed what he was doing. I dove down then up (low yo-yo) and we would merge vertically several times. I actually wore him down to near the deck and after a very prolonged fight and many traded hits, I scored the kill. The 190a-5 is more than capable of killing most planes in the game. Just not escaping from them. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.
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Here's a question on tactics for you all.
Say for instance, I am up in a 190A5. I've climbed up to about 10k on the way to the fight. Off in the distance I spot a con that is a few thousand feet higher then I am. I start climbing a bit more, but apparently he is still climbing also. Get to 6k range and now can identify this aircraft as an enemy 109, still a few thousand feet above me. He has turned towards me and is diving somewhat, converting altitude to airspeed. We are roughly co-alt at merge, but he is considerably faster (also I can see that he is in a G14 model now). I don't have much speed since I was climbing. The simple turn I did got me popped right in the canopy in pretty short order, fight over.
Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive. If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed. He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster. Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?
Or would something else be more appropriate.
I've been enjoying flying the 190A5, didn't have any work to do yesterday so I flew it a bunch and posted some kills in it. Starting to get a feel for it. But still making lots of mistakes.
Thanks in advance. :salute
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Short answer yes, better to dive for a little speed needed to maneuver than to try climbing to an enemy. And in any 190, that ain't slow. Better to dip into the altitude bank to have some maneuvering potential left than to try to fight nose up and be a stalling, buffeting target.
Tough fight, the 109 will turn better, climb better, and have better top speed here. You had it right, your dive speed and better ailerons are about the only advantage. Trying to dive away and then rope won't work. I'd dive and hope he followed, and wasn't too swift on the E-management/throttle, try to get him out in front and below with a defensive spiral. Frankly, in this matchup, if you don't have any mistakes on the opposition's part to capitalize on, no help, and the escape window is closed, it'd be one of the few times I'd consider going for a HO.
Here's a question on tactics for you all.
Say for instance, I am up in a 190A5. I've climbed up to about 10k on the way to the fight. Off in the distance I spot a con that is a few thousand feet higher then I am. I start climbing a bit more, but apparently he is still climbing also. Get to 6k range and now can identify this aircraft as an enemy 109, still a few thousand feet above me. He has turned towards me and is diving somewhat, converting altitude to airspeed. We are roughly co-alt at merge, but he is considerably faster (also I can see that he is in a G14 model now). I don't have much speed since I was climbing. The simple turn I did got me popped right in the canopy in pretty short order, fight over.
Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive. If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed. He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster. Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?
Or would something else be more appropriate.
I've been enjoying flying the 190A5, didn't have any work to do yesterday so I flew it a bunch and posted some kills in it. Starting to get a feel for it. But still making lots of mistakes.
Thanks in advance. :salute
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Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive. If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed. He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster. Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?
Yes, that would have worked.
Another option besides the zoom climb after extending would have been to take him into a defensive spiral (a diving vertical rolling scissors) where you have both roll rate and speed advantages. If you could pull him into it you would have two options; chop throttle and wait for the overshoot, or remain at full throttle and see if you could force him to auger.
Regardless, as with most cons above you or with a substantial E advantage, it's almost always best to give them your 6 and lead the fight.
[EDIT] If all else failed then at least get him to the deck and turn fight him. I dove on a 109K-4 one night in my 190A-8. We ended in a 3-4 minute turn fight on the deck and just as he was gaining position on my he ran out of gas and augered. :) You never know what will happen.
[EDIT] One more thing, the 190's can force a lot of planes to auger out of a chasing dive. Invert as you appraoch the deck making them think you are going to pull into a split-s. Allow them to get in-plane with you then roll 180 and pull out. If you time it right and they try to roll with you they wont have time to complete the roll and pull out. I love no shot kills :)
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I'd also like to point out that while FW190 is not too good 1vs1 plane it's a good plane in many vs many -at least as long as you have a wingman that knows the realities of 190 maneuvering options.
-C+
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I'd also like to point out that while FW190 is not too good 1vs1 plane it's a good plane in many vs many -at least as long as you have a wingman that knows the realities of 190 maneuvering options.
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While it is in fact proven to be the best fighter of world war 2, for many reasons we are talking about the Fw190. Flown right it is quite to win in most situations 1 on 1. You just need to know your flying abilities and push them to the limits. I have challanged Spit 16's, P51's flown by decent sticks and won some and lost some, I can tell you Fw190a5 (in my experience) is one of the finest fighters in the game.
However yes it wont run like a dora, or vert fight like a dora, but it will out turn easily. You just need to fly it for a tour to find out how truely good it is.
I spent a tour in it and can vouch it handles itself more like a 15 eny plane then 25. Dora on other hand, as much as I want to master it I still can't win most times 1 on 1 unless I go vert and literally wear someone out to quit the fight.
Modified: one thing I will add, The dora9 is actually a wonderful bird to fly, if you keep your situational awarness up and learn to "disengage" when your being out numbered it has its advantages in running speed and power. Today I flown it and did 11 kills in single sortie, however I did really little turn n' burn as I flew it like a 109 and was quite successful.
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D9 is not bad, you can make it live longer but it's hard to evade the getting slaughter in it if you are low and slow. Last campaign I spent tons of hours low tnbing D9 in TT (til damn rooks took it!). I tried to find its limitation and see if I can make it sing.
I ran into 1 vs 3-4 a lot w/ D9. I can make people overshot easily in D9, but I can't pull my nose up to shoot as they overshot. Mainly because I just don't have the flexibility w/o speed and alt to do that. Also I have to keep evading other fighters' passes. The mistake the new spitfires and other new pilots made when they fight vs a D9 were that they kept their speed so they almost always overshot. I rarely see a spitfire chop throttle to saddle in on my tail. Unless it's 1 vs 1 situation. In a furball situation they usually keep the speed up. I have fight in D9 OTD that last 4-5 min w/ just my D9 rolling v. 4-5 spits, of course I can't kill any of them, but at the same time, they couldn't put the piper on me.
It depend on the pilot more then the plane, but the plane will usually tell ya how the pilot will fly it. Tons of time in TT, where I fly at 3-4k merging with spits and nikis. They would just fly right pass me thinking I will run and no do a 180. Usually it's suprising to them when I do an illy 180 and chase them down. I've run into wingzero a few time w/ niki vs d9 otd tnbing, the fight would last 3-4 minutes. I'd die but usually he has to work for the kill.
The problem with the D9 is it has horrible turn radius and snap roll. You can snap roll a D9 at 400 knts if you yank 2 hard on the stick trying to pull out of a dive, or in a stall fight at 200 knts. What made most American fighter more superior to the D9 when it comes to TnB is they have high speed flaps. D9 flaps drops at 190 knts. D9 can turn suprisingly well at high speed 300-400, it will keep with spitfire. Though that only last as much as you have alt and nose down turning, and eventually you'll bleed that and have to comes to other manuever. D9 handles horriblely at low speed, so usually D9 pilot won't chop throttle to perform overshot / reversal. Where in American fighters they will do it and not afraid of anything.
When I fly F4U it feels like superman because I can go into a tnb vs spitfires and usually win. I can BnZ the F4U til I'm out of E and then drag whoever on me far away from the furball and tnb. When I fly D9 I usually don't TnB unless I have to, usually most 1 vs 1 situation I'd TnB the D9. If I'm in a furball and I have a few spitfire latches onto my D9, I'd just fly in a big circle and still pick people off the furball. I just won't turn that much because I don't wanna reward people in ez mode plane ez kills ^_^.
People always say they can make 190s outturn spit, I call that bullcrap. If the spitfire pilot is a newbie then yea usually, but if you have an equal skill pilot, there's no way in hell the spit pilot will let the D9 pilot get the advantage. Keep in mind this is the D9 I'm talking about, not the 152 or A5.
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While it is in fact proven to be the best fighter of world war 2, for many reasons we are talking about the Fw190.
Where did you get that from? Sources?
The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.
The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.
The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.
Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."
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I dunno about the best fighter of WWII, but it is a VERY good fighter in group engagements.
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The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.
Mk1 you mean, no? MkV didn't see service until late 41, I thought.
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Where did you get that from? Sources?
The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.
The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.
The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.
Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."
funny they are all allied planes you mention.
ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???
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Where did you get that from? Sources?
The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.
The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.
The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.
Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."
Fw 190 was adapted for every role it took on, Earliest model was air superiority fighter - outclassed Spitfire and anything russians had available.
Later models for example: Fw190a8 designed for bombers alone, FW190F/G For ground attack, FW190d9 again an interceptor, Ta-152 the last version of the 190s as high alt interceptor. I'm not looking at how many aces it produced, rather how well it performed - its easy to argue me109 produced the highest aces however you look its models and it wasn't adapted for half things it did: ground attack it wasn't suitable for ground work, bomber interceptor didn't carry enough ords to do a decent job (get in, fight, get out) as gondolas would hurt performance.
P-51 was a fine long range escort fighter, but look at its ground attack performance - single shot to the coolant its down.
You can't compare an F6F-5 or even Corsair simply the japanese had nothing to combat either plane with equal numbers. Any argument can be made saying the Zero was the best fighter simply nothing could match it, what happened when F6F and corsair introduced?
I'm going by facts shown in the books, while you can argue this all day long (P-47 is my 2nd choice for war winner) being it was re-adapted many times for ground support / intercepting V-1 bombers).
I based my comment off research and not simply "what won the war" but more so towards what the plane did as a workhorse.
Yes its opinion based, as I can get 100 historians that could choose 100 different planes to be the "best of the best" based on stats.
I would say P-47 / Fw190 would be top 2 I would only have the Fw190 ahead by little by being introduced 2 years earlier, and having a little more experience.
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funny they are all allied planes you mention.
ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???
Look, I love the German birds. My four primary rides are the 109K-4, 190A-8, F6F-5 and Spit XVI. I just want to see the sources that back up the claim he made because I've never heard it. Maybe the best German fighter. I could have believed that but not best overall.
I'm not starting an argument or anything. I'm just challenging his statement and if he can provide sources then great.
[EDIT] OK. I just saw your post. So, "proven to be the best" was just your opinion then. In the future you should add "IMO it was the best..."
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funny they are all allied planes you mention.
ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???
Exactly - anyone can argue spitfire won Battle of Britain (however what did the hurricane do then sit around and play cards?)
Spitfire was an excellent bird as an air superority fighter it did wonderful, however Britain had to introduce many other planes to pick up
where spitfire lacked: ground support went to the Tiffy and escort role taken over by american planes simply it wasn't designed and even when it was re-designed it did little in an escort role.
Same goes for Japanese Zero - great dogfighter, early days did its job wonderful nothing could match it. However 2 years later a fighter was introduced (f6f / corsair) and the zero was completely outmatched and couldn't perform.
Edit:
Look at the Fw190 - 2 years after it was introduced the updated model came out and continued to stay on par with american / british / russian fighters.
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I agree your initial comment was a bit over the top, and I also agree that the 190 was a good fighter.
However it was not a very capable fighter with regards to taking on enemy fighters for a large portion of the war. After the initial shock, the allies came up with craft that equaled and exceeded the 190 performance, and only at the very end of the war did the inline-engined variants exceed allied designs.
The 109s were tasked to escort the 190s while they went after bomber formations, similar to bf110s requiring bf109 escorts in the BOB. Hardly "proven to be the best fighter of the war"....
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I agree your initial comment was a bit over the top, and I also agree that the 190 was a good fighter.
However it was not a very capable fighter with regards to taking on enemy fighters for a large portion of the war. After the initial shock, the allies came up with craft that equaled and exceeded the 190 performance, and only at the very end of the war did the inline-engined variants exceed allied designs.
The 109s were tasked to escort the 190s while they went after bomber formations, similar to bf110s requiring bf109 escorts in the BOB. Hardly "proven to be the best fighter of the war"....
Mainly because 190s were drawn as buff destroyers, i.e adding more guns and rockets to the plane hurt its overall performance. But if the plane wasn't good explain why Britain copied it for a later design? Seafury I do believe.
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Look, I love the German birds. My four primary rides are the 109K-4, 190A-8, F6F-5 and Spit XVI. I just want to see the sources that back up the claim he made because I've never heard it. Maybe the best German fighter. I could have believed that but not best overall.
I'm not starting an argument or anything. I'm just challenging his statement and if he can provide sources then great.
[EDIT] OK. I just saw your post. So, "proven to be the best" was just your opinion then. In the future you should add "IMO it was the best..."
Everyone has a favourite plane, of all the research i've done I concluded 190/P-47 were generally equal in all round as best fighters of the war.
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Sea Fury is a direct descendent of the Tempest family, NOT the 190 family. Early tempest models had radial engines, and then later models went back to this type (with more power, though).
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Sea Fury is a direct descendent of the Tempest family, NOT the 190 family. Early tempest models had radial engines, and then later models went back to this type (with more power, though).
Incidentally, there is a myth in circulation that the Sea Fury was based on the FW-190. In reality, the resemblance between the two aircraft is very superficial, and any consideration of the design evolution of the Hawker fighter shows the idea to be nonsense. The British didn't get their hands on an FW-190 until mid-1942, well after the flight of the Centaurus-powered Tornado that was the design ancestor of the Sea Fury, and the only major feature the Sea Fury owed to the FW-190 was the engine mounting scheme.
BRITISH WAR PLANES OF WORLD WAR II, edited by Daniel Marsh, Airtime Publications, 1998.
indeed I was incorrect - having to play the source game, not sure where I read but the captured fw190 was examined and incorporated into SeaFury.
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Everyone has a favourite plane, of all the research i've done I concluded 190/P-47 were generally equal in all round as best fighters of the war.
yup
p47 by far the best plane, followed by 190.
P51 wasnt the best, it just finished the job the p47 started.
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Discovered the 190A5 this evening. Got a few kills pretty quickly with it, it felt good. I'm told that the A5 is a bit more "turny" then some of the other 190s. Is this impression correct? It certainly feels more "turny". What are the biggest drawbacks with the A5?
I've posted quite a few kills in a Mossie and I actually like flying A20s also, I wonder if the 190A5 is somewhat similar in flight cxharacteristics to these two heavier craft.
Just tossing out ideas here. I find that BBS discussions like these can actually provide a great deal of info.
Thanks in advance.
:salute
The A-5 is a blast and a niffty little fighter. The "turny" feel is not illusion, as the A-5 can complete a tighter circuit than the other A models, and of course the Dora. Someone mentioned it is the best turner of the family. That is incorrect. If you want to get in and mix it up close, the best choice is the Ta152. By far, the best handling of the series.
Remember: None of them are dogfighters, nor where they intended to be. That doesn't mean you should not go in, have fun and mix it up. Just don't get discouraged if you don't last as long as in say, a Bf109.
Drawbacks of the A-5 ? Very few. Small 7mm mg's require long concentrated, very localized bursts to do crippling damage. 500 20 mil rounds however more than compensates for that. Leave the outboard cannons in the hanger.
She is the slowest of the group, but still faster than the majority of all AH A/C including the late war set.
Bubi said it well. They are not fighters, they are killers. They excell in wingman, squadron usage. Very easy to get someone strung out in the drag. Fight in the verticle, utilizing the verticle reverse. Prepare for some grief from your enemies as they fall wingless from the sky. That's ok, someone has something negetive to say about every plane. Most of all, enjoy it. The Focke Wulf FW190 is hands down my favorite plane of all time.
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The A-5 is actually faster than the A-8 in certain areas.
Without WEP it's faster across the board (similar power, draggier A-8). With WEP it's faster in medium-low alts where a lot of fighting is done, and significantly faster above 25k.
Climb rate for the A-5 is also considerably higher than that of the A-8 on and off WEP.
The A-5 also turns tighter than the 152 with and without flaps, although the 152's longer wings mean that when it stalls it will be an easier stall, whereas when the A-5 stalls it'll dip a wing or snap roll or something.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=190a5&p2=190a8&p3=190d9&p4=ta152h
Food for thought.
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The A-5 is a blast and a niffty little fighter. The "turny" feel is not illusion, as the A-5 can complete a tighter circuit than the other A models, and of course the Dora. Someone mentioned it is the best turner of the family. That is incorrect. If you want to get in and mix it up close, the best choice is the Ta152. By far, the best handling of the series.
Remember: None of them are dogfighters, nor where they intended to be. That doesn't mean you should not go in, have fun and mix it up. Just don't get discouraged if you don't last as long as in say, a Bf109.
Drawbacks of the A-5 ? Very few. Small 7mm mg's require long concentrated, very localized bursts to do crippling damage. 500 20 mil rounds however more than compensates for that. Leave the outboard cannons in the hanger.
She is the slowest of the group, but still faster than the majority of all AH A/C including the late war set.
Bubi said it well. They are not fighters, they are killers. They excell in wingman, squadron usage. Very easy to get someone strung out in the drag. Fight in the verticle, utilizing the verticle reverse. Prepare for some grief from your enemies as they fall wingless from the sky. That's ok, someone has something negetive to say about every plane. Most of all, enjoy it. The Focke Wulf FW190 is hands down my favorite plane of all time.
Food for thought. Try to help the man. Not with charts and bs. With "real game" answers.
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So, you think comparing the 190s and saying which one is faster, which turns better, etc, is "BS"?
Well then you started the BS. Sorry to tell ya, but I was contradicting the info in a previous post, not just spouting random data.
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I am saying:
In ACES HIGH 2 the Fw190A-8 is 15 mph faster than the Fw190A-5 WHERE IT COUNTS. WHERE THE FIGHT IS.
I am also saying that the Ta152, is more manueverable in close than the FW190A-5, and would gladly demonstrate this to you, in ACES HIGH 2.
This is a Help and Training board, and thread, in which I am giving the original thread starter my in game experience in the Fw190 series aircraft. Which I think he is more intersted in, than your "Data".
Cheers.
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Back a while ago, we had a discussion about tnbing Dora. People keeping telling me to go take note from Urchin,Moot, Stampf etc.. on how to tnb Dora!
I still stand by w/ saying you can only make the D9 sing so much before a well flying spitfire shut you up. The pilot skill means a lot, but the pilot can only do so much with the tool he's using.
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Yenny - "I still stand by w/ saying you can only make the D9 sing so much before a well flying spitfire shut you up. The pilot skill means a lot, but the pilot can only do so much with the tool he's using."
Agree 100%.
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I am saying:
In ACES HIGH 2 the Fw190A-8 is 15 mph faster than the Fw190A-5 WHERE IT COUNTS. WHERE THE FIGHT IS.
I am also saying that the Ta152, is more manueverable in close than the FW190A-5, and would gladly demonstrate this to you, in ACES HIGH 2.
This is a Help and Training board, and thread, in which I am giving the original thread starter my in game experience in the Fw190 series aircraft. Which I think he is more intersted in, than your "Data".
Cheers.
Rubbish post par excelence.
If you simply dismiss performance specifications as being "data" (quotation marks set by you), you are actually arguing in a very ignorant way. I'm almost bemused that you even go so far to indicate that facts & "data" have no place on the Help and Training board.
Actually knowing and appreciating the specific performance of each plane is the base for every following discussion. It's forming the very foundation, to which other factors that are not put into numbers that easily are added, for example handling, views, particularities of MA combat environent and so on.
Relying solely on "ingame experience" may occasionally even lead to wrong conclusions about the raw capabilities of a plane, for it doesn't account for things like pilot skill levels, familiarity, prevailing loadouts etc.
Also, using caps doesn't automatically make statements true. On the deck the A8 is about 10mph faster, but that advantage is already lost at ~3.5k, and up to 10k the A5 iis actually faster than the A8 (up to 10mph). That's far from being "15mph faster WHERE IT COUNTS. WHERE THE FIGHT IS." (Of course the far superior climb rate and better turn radius doesn't hurt the A5 either)
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You are missing my point Lusche.
Thats ok, I understand yours.
As far as speeds of two. I should have just said on the deck then. Where, the fight always ultimately ends up, (for some).
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Huh...seems to me that if you are planning to survive, you should get a little alt with the A-5, and egress before you get low enough for the A-8's deck speed advantage to be meaningful.
And it seems you are not planning to at some point egress and survive, just furball it all the way to 0 alt, then a few mph worth of speed is a moot point. You weren't planning on landing anyway.
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funny they are all allied planes you mention.
ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???
By far the best post in this thread. A lot of BS going on otherwise... which really isn't necessary.
BaldEagl got it right in his first post comparing the 190 types. The Ta152 however is part of the 190 series although a entirely separate a/c in it's own right. It's the best 190 type imo but is not for the 190 "n00b".
- If you want to learn the 190 family, I recommend you start with the A-5. A very nimble a/c (for a 190 at least) which you can actually turn fight with to some degree. The outboard MG/FF cannons won't help you much, leave them in the hangar for better performance.
- When you're familiar with the A-5, step up to the A-8. It's the same deal with the A-8, leave the outboard cannons in the hangar unless you are 100% sure that it's bombers you will fight.
- Third step is the D-9, it's faster, climbs better and above all accelerate quicker in a dive and zoom climb better. A great E fighter (E tactics require more skill than TnB imo, although many would probably disagree :D). So it's not a beginner's ride, you will need experience to see the good sides of this bird.
- Once you've learned how to fight and survive in the D-9, the next step is the Ta152. Best to stay above 20k in it, it will really come to life above 30k. It can still hold it's own against most a/c at low alt too if flown properly.
A few things apply to all of these a/c.
- Stay fast... while in a fight, never go below 300 mph unless you're doing a reversal or pulling for a shot. The exception being, when defensive on the deck and out of options => desperate evasion tactics. These birds like it best in the 350-500 range.
- Use the vertical! Can't be stressed too much, flat turns will kill you.
- Don't pull too many Gs. Be gentle on the stick, it's a sensitive a/c and too much input will bleed off your E.
- All these a/c have excellent all around visibility, make use of it! Keep your SA up and that will probably save your butt (like, every time).
- Better to use as few calibers as possible => 4 x 20 mm is better than 2 x 20 + 2 x 30, simply because of very different ballistics. Otherwise when scoring hits you won't know which caliber gun that hit and it will end up confusing you.
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a8 is far better plane. You can still be fighting in an A8, when in a A5 you would be RTB without ammo....
A8 BNZ untill half ammo/fuel load then TnB and scare people.... Never leave guns at home. oh and Quad 20s always. 30s are heavier and run out faster..
if taking the A5, dont bother with the outboard cannons as these suck.
Also, Ta152, not sure if its making a difference or im just being silly, but lately i run with 25-50% fuel and DT. this means less fuel is AFT of the COG, making it slightly more stable. Might be BS but seems to work for me lol.
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Also, Ta152, not sure if its making a difference or im just being silly, but lately i run with 25-50% fuel and DT. this means less fuel is AFT of the COG, making it slightly more stable. Might be BS but seems to work for me lol.
I don't think that's BS. The 152 is suffering from stability problems, and having max 50% fuel does indeed help you for the reasons you stated.
And 50% & DT is more than enough for MA play, even without DT 50% gives you ~28 mins flight time at sea leavel, which can be greatly increased by flying at cruise settings (50% fuel loitering time >60 mins!). For those not familiar with the Ta 152 let me also point out that taking a DT doesn't give you any top speed loss after drop.
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Absolutely true about the 152 rear tank, it flies and handles significantly better with a empty rear tank. DT is a great option for the Ta152, considering it doesn't require a rack to be fitted with it.
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I don't think that's BS. The 152 is suffering from stability problems, and having max 50% fuel does indeed help you for the reasons you stated.
And 50% & DT is more than enough for MA play, even without DT 50% gives you ~28 mins flight time at sea leavel, which can be greatly increased by flying at cruise settings (50% fuel loitering time >60 mins!). For those not familiar with the Ta 152 let me also point out that taking a DT doesn't give you any top speed loss after drop.
yeah some people take way too much fuel. Why take 100% in a 190a8 or Ta152 when you are simply NEVER gona need it....kinda like base capture missionz with Lancs setup with 100% fuel hehehe :D
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In A5 and A8, I don't see the reason to get the extra gun package. I think 2 20mm and 2x 13mm is enough. The way the air craft design you sacrafy too much performance for the extra lil punch. I average about 20-30 rounds per kill in 190 (cannon that is, I do fire 13mms together so roughly about 40-60 rounds of both.)
I don't see the need for the extra package unless you're on attack run that needs to pound the town. Fuel in the 190 is usually the issue for me rather then the ammo. I usually get to bingo fuel and still have 250 rounds of cannon and rougly 8-10 kills.
In the D9 I always carry extra fuel tank, I lose 8 mph but I need the fuel to maintain over enemy air space longer. W/o teh DT it's about 20 min at full power, w/ the DT it's 40 min total. I learn how to fight w/ DT on, adapted to it. Usually it's 5-7 min after take off to arrive to target area, 5-7 min to rtb. so that's about 14 min, if you don't have DT that leaves you 6 mins of combat time. W/ DT you have 26 + min of combat time over enemy air space. 190D only have 2 internal tanks, so if one gets hit you lose 10 min, which is another reason why I always take DT. Usually I don't have to worry about my fuel tanks getting hit, beacause it's always the radiator. No matter what the angle the rounds come from! =p.
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I always take the 30mm's in the A8. Theres nothing like two taters to rip an opponent to shreds. The ballistic differences between the 20's and 30's aren't that bad once you get used to them and once the spuds are gone you've still got 20's and 13mm's.
Forget the outboard cannons in the A5 though, they are pretty much useless.
Also, I always carry a drop tank on the A5 and D9 but it's not needed with the others.
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If you open fire at D200 the ballistic differences won't be felt as much but if you have a habit of opening fire at D600 the difference will be felt.
So whether the ballistic differences between 20 and 30 mm rounds is a factor or not, is very much up to how you fly and in what situations you open fire.
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I have my CV set at 400 for long range, but 90% of all my shots are from 200. At that range I just fire all gun and it only take 1/2 sec burst 15-20 rounds for a kill. If it's not a kill then whoever finish it will usually give me the kill.
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majority, and I mean about 99.8%, of folks that you see in 190's ingame, suck and are only flying it to run, or in the a-8's case, for the firepower. Then you have a portion of that percentage who only fly it for bnz/cherry purposes because, again, it runs well, for when they miss and dont want to fight.
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majority, and I mean about 99.8%, of folks that you see in 190's ingame, suck and are only flying it to run, or in the a-8's case, for the firepower. Then you have a portion of that percentage who only fly it for bnz/cherry purposes because, again, it runs well, for when they miss and dont want to fight.
how can you run in a 190 (except dora and Ta152) when almost every american and russian plane is faster than you?
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There are indeed faster planes at every altitude, faster even than the Dora. La7 and Typhoon low, 109K4 above 5K. P-51D and P-47N anytime you get much above 10K. And all of these aircraft turn better.
Maybe people are not flying X plane entirely for percieved advantage, whatever that may be, but because they LIKE them and want to go all Walter Mitty for abit? And perhaps it is a good thing that not everyone's preferences run to the RAF/USN/IJA/IJN planes that just-so-happen to turn on a dime. Adds to the variety, it does.
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There are indeed faster planes at every altitude, faster even than the Dora. La7 and Typhoon low, 109K4 above 5K. P-51D and P-47N anytime you get much above 10K. And all of these aircraft turn better.
Maybe people are not flying X plane entirely for percieved advantage, whatever that may be, but because they LIKE them and want to go all Walter Mitty for abit? And perhaps it is a good thing that not everyone's preferences run to the RAF/USN/IJA/IJN planes that just-so-happen to turn on a dime. Adds to the variety, it does.
Well said. I'm sticking with the 190 series simply because it's the one I like of the two LW fighters. That's it, nothing more to it. It's a very sexy a/c though, with BIG GUNS! :D
Back in the day when I started in AH I flew a lot of allied planes, a favorite was the P51. I never could come to terms with those .50 cals, they're just too weak, but then the allies didn't have to chase down such big ugly flying f***ers that the LW was forced to face either! Not to mention the swarms of heavily armored Il-2s on the deck.
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Well said. I'm sticking with the 190 series simply because it's the one I like of the two LW fighters. That's it, nothing more to it. It's a very sexy a/c though, with BIG GUNS! :D
Back in the day when I started in AH I flew a lot of allied planes, a favorite was the P51. I never could come to terms with those .50 cals, they're just too weak, but then the allies didn't have to chase down such big ugly flying f***ers that the LW was forced to face either! Not to mention the swarms of heavily armored Il-2s on the deck.
yup, i fly german whenever i can and i can get a hell of alot more kills in a 190 than i can in a 109. 109 sucks compaired to 190.... shame i have to turn to P47s for attack runs....
... I fly the worst of the 190s too however i do have fun and that, to me is all that matters.
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No need to go Jug for Jabo Overlag :)
http://www.vimeo.com/1205313?pg=embed&sec=1205313
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No need to go Jug for Jabo Overlag :)
http://www.vimeo.com/1205313?pg=embed&sec=1205313
LOL you just had to didn't ya! :lol :aok
:salute
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No need to go Jug for Jabo Overlag :)
http://www.vimeo.com/1205313?pg=embed&sec=1205313
3 190s = 1 jug :(
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I guess that's why the LW called them jagdbombern, not attack planes, bombers or anything like that but jagd-bomber. :aok