Tell me about 190s

[PFactorDave]

http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm

Been checking them both out.  Those sites have their uses and are fantastic sources.   Must say I seem to learn as much, if not more, from these BBs threads where more experienced sticks "talk/argue" about things.

Appreciate the help, thanks.

[bongaroo]

I highly recommend the 190a5 with the 2 x 20mm gun package.  The heavier gun package has the two MMFF's which come with crappy ballistics.  Taking these out will help lower your weight.

Take 100% fuel and no DT, you'll have a good amount of flight time and no shackle on the bottom of your plane slowing you down.

Last but not least: Go have fun!  People see a 190 icon and expect a BnZ pass that is easy to avoid if you keep an eye on them.  Imagine their surprise when you attack, use the phenominal roll to keep the direction of the fight changing as you work in for the 6 shot.  Flying this setup really helped me learn about what a scissors fight is all about.  Useful lessons to be used in any plane.

[Krusty]

While the bomb rack does add a little drag, it's only a few mph (less than 5?) and overall not a major deterrent. The bomb rack does add WEIGHT however, so you'll have about ... er... what was it? 160lbs? For the rack gear. Again, on an 8000lb plane, not too much.

The 190A5 has lesser quality MG/FF on the outboard position. However, these are still 20mm cannon. While their explosive load is a bit less than the other cannons, it is still powerful enough to rip a plane up if it hits.

The ballistics are different, but they do make a difference. You can and will get hits with them.

Don't misunderstand, I like the 2-gun loadout as well, but I will often dogfight with all 4 guns just because it means my snapshots are that much better. I will also dogfight with 30mm in the 190a8. Doesn't mean it will turn the best, but you don't want to get into turn fights anyway.

Use vertical moves. Jink one way, then reverse back, rate of roll, climb, dive, loop, you can be quite agile, as long as you don't flat-turn. The only exception is when you're pulling for a shot and the target turns hard. That's where you'll get in trouble more often than not.

Use your WEP, you have 10 minutes of it. However don't forget that sometimes you'll do certain moves better if you back off the throttle. You may find the gas is a bit light. I like longer sorties, and if I take only internal on the A-5 I usually end up cruising more to conserve gas.

For combat, you don't need alt, but speed is good. I don't mean mach 2.5, but a decent rate of speed (250+) is really required for effective manuvering.

I was once bounced (at 12k) by a higher P-51 (~17k), and saw he was going to simply bounce me til I was worn down. I was climbing up when I saw his dot getting nearer, so I leveled out. When I realized the situation, I basically reversed what he was doing. I dove down then up (low yo-yo) and we would merge vertically several times. I actually wore him down to near the deck and after a very prolonged fight and many traded hits, I scored the kill. The 190a-5 is more than capable of killing most planes in the game. Just not escaping from them. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

[PFactorDave]

Here's a question on tactics for you all.

Say for instance, I am up in a 190A5.  I've climbed up to about 10k on the way to the fight.  Off in the distance I spot a con that is a few thousand feet higher then I am.  I start climbing a bit more, but apparently he is still climbing also.  Get to 6k range and now can identify this aircraft as an enemy 109, still a few thousand feet above me.  He has turned towards me and is diving somewhat, converting altitude to airspeed.  We are roughly co-alt at merge, but he is considerably faster (also I can see that he is in a G14 model now).  I don't have much speed since I was climbing.  The simple turn I did got me popped right in the canopy in pretty short order, fight over. 

Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive.  If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed.  He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster.  Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?

Or would something else be more appropriate.

I've been enjoying flying the 190A5, didn't have any work to do yesterday so I flew it a bunch and posted some kills in it.  Starting to get a feel for it.  But still making lots of mistakes.

Thanks in advance. 

[BnZ]

Short answer yes, better to dive for a little speed needed to maneuver than to try climbing to an enemy. And in any 190, that ain't slow. Better to dip into the altitude bank to have some maneuvering potential left than to try to fight nose up and be a stalling, buffeting target.

Tough fight, the 109 will turn better, climb better, and have better top speed here. You had it right, your dive speed and better ailerons are about the only advantage. Trying to dive away and then rope won't work. I'd dive and hope he followed, and wasn't too swift on the E-management/throttle, try to get him out in front and below with a defensive spiral. Frankly, in this matchup, if you don't have any mistakes on the opposition's part to capitalize on, no help, and the escape window is closed, it'd be one of the few times I'd consider going for a HO.

Here's a question on tactics for you all.

Say for instance, I am up in a 190A5.  I've climbed up to about 10k on the way to the fight.  Off in the distance I spot a con that is a few thousand feet higher then I am.  I start climbing a bit more, but apparently he is still climbing also.  Get to 6k range and now can identify this aircraft as an enemy 109, still a few thousand feet above me.  He has turned towards me and is diving somewhat, converting altitude to airspeed.  We are roughly co-alt at merge, but he is considerably faster (also I can see that he is in a G14 model now).  I don't have much speed since I was climbing.  The simple turn I did got me popped right in the canopy in pretty short order, fight over. 

Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive.  If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed.  He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster.  Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?

Or would something else be more appropriate.

I've been enjoying flying the 190A5, didn't have any work to do yesterday so I flew it a bunch and posted some kills in it.  Starting to get a feel for it.  But still making lots of mistakes.

Thanks in advance. 

[BaldEagl]

Was thinking about it a bit and was wondering if maybe the better approach would have been to dive.  If he follows me, I should be able to pull away from him with my aircrafts greater tolerance for dive speed.  He would be forced to pull out of the dive sooner or regulate his dive speed allowing me to get faster.  Wouldn't this allow me a greater zoom in this case possibly roping him or at the least escaping to reset?

Yes, that would have worked.

Another option besides the zoom climb after extending would have been to take him into a defensive spiral (a diving vertical rolling scissors) where you have both roll rate and speed advantages.  If you could pull him into it you would have two options; chop throttle and wait for the overshoot, or remain at full throttle and see if you could force him to auger.

Regardless, as with most cons above you or with a substantial E advantage, it's almost always best to give them your 6 and lead the fight.

[EDIT]  If all else failed then at least get him to the deck and turn fight him.  I dove on a 109K-4 one night in my 190A-8.  We ended in a 3-4 minute turn fight on the deck and just as he was gaining position on my he ran out of gas and augered. You never know what will happen.

[EDIT]  One more thing, the 190's can force a lot of planes to auger out of a chasing dive.  Invert as you appraoch the deck making them think you are going to pull into a split-s.  Allow them to get in-plane with you then roll 180 and pull out.  If you time it right and they try to roll with you they wont have time to complete the roll and pull out.  I love no shot kills

[Charge]

I'd also like to point out that while FW190 is not too good 1vs1 plane it's a good plane in many vs many -at least as long as you have a wingman that knows the realities of 190 maneuvering options.

-C+

[Adonai]

I'd also like to point out that while FW190 is not too good 1vs1 plane it's a good plane in many vs many -at least as long as you have a wingman that knows the realities of 190 maneuvering options.

-C+

While it is in fact proven to be the best fighter of world war 2, for many reasons we are talking about the Fw190. Flown right it is quite to win in most situations 1 on 1. You just need to know your flying abilities and push them to the limits. I have challanged Spit 16's, P51's flown by decent sticks and won some and lost some, I can tell you Fw190a5 (in my experience) is one of the finest fighters in the game.

However yes it wont run like a dora, or vert fight like a dora, but it will out turn easily. You just need to fly it for a tour to find out how truely good it is.
I spent a tour in it and can vouch it handles itself more like a 15 eny plane then 25. Dora on other hand, as much as I want to master it I still can't win most times 1 on 1 unless I go vert and literally wear someone out to quit the fight.

Modified: one thing I will add, The dora9 is actually a wonderful bird to fly, if you keep your situational awarness up and learn to "disengage" when your being out numbered it has its advantages in running speed and power. Today I flown it and did 11 kills in single sortie, however I did really little turn n' burn as I flew it like a 109 and was quite successful.

[Yenny]

D9 is not bad, you can make it live longer but it's hard to evade the getting slaughter in it if you are low and slow. Last campaign I spent tons of hours low tnbing D9 in TT (til damn rooks took it!). I tried to find its limitation and see if I can make it sing.

I ran into 1 vs 3-4 a lot w/ D9. I can make people overshot easily in D9, but I can't pull my nose up to shoot as they overshot. Mainly because I just don't have the flexibility w/o speed and alt to do that. Also I have to keep evading other fighters' passes. The mistake the new spitfires and other new pilots made when they fight vs a D9 were that they kept their speed so they almost always overshot. I rarely see a spitfire chop throttle to saddle in on my tail. Unless it's 1 vs 1 situation. In a furball situation they usually keep the speed up. I have fight in D9 OTD that last 4-5 min w/ just my D9 rolling v. 4-5 spits, of course I can't kill any of them, but at the same time, they couldn't put the piper on me.

It depend on the pilot more then the plane, but the plane will usually tell ya how the pilot will fly it. Tons of time in TT, where I fly at 3-4k merging with spits and nikis. They would just fly right pass me thinking I will run and no do a 180. Usually it's suprising to them when I do an illy 180 and chase them down. I've run into wingzero a few time w/ niki vs d9 otd tnbing, the fight would last 3-4 minutes. I'd die but usually he has to work for the kill.

The problem with the D9 is it has horrible turn radius and snap roll. You can snap roll a D9 at 400 knts if you yank 2 hard on the stick trying to pull out of a dive, or in a stall fight at 200 knts. What made most American fighter more superior to the D9 when it comes to TnB is they have high speed flaps. D9 flaps drops at 190 knts. D9 can turn suprisingly well at high speed 300-400, it will keep with spitfire. Though that only last as much as you have alt and nose down turning, and eventually you'll bleed that and have to comes to other manuever. D9 handles horriblely at low speed, so usually D9 pilot won't chop throttle to perform overshot / reversal. Where in American fighters they will do it and not afraid of anything.

When I fly F4U it feels like superman because I can go into a tnb vs spitfires and usually win. I can BnZ the F4U til I'm out of E and then drag whoever on me far away from the furball and tnb. When I fly D9 I usually don't TnB unless I have to, usually most 1 vs 1 situation I'd TnB the D9. If I'm in a furball and I have a few spitfire latches onto my D9, I'd just fly in a big circle and still pick people off the furball. I just won't turn that much because I don't wanna reward people in ez mode plane ez kills ^_^.

People always say they can make 190s outturn spit, I call that bullcrap. If the spitfire pilot is a newbie then yea usually, but if you have an equal skill pilot, there's no way in hell the spit pilot will let the D9 pilot get the advantage. Keep in mind this is the D9 I'm talking about, not the 152 or A5.

[BaldEagl]

While it is in fact proven to be the best fighter of world war 2, for many reasons we are talking about the Fw190.

Where did you get that from?  Sources?

The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.

The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.

The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.

Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."

[Motherland]

I dunno about the best fighter of WWII, but it is a VERY good fighter in group engagements.

[trotter]

The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.

Mk1 you mean, no? MkV didn't see service until late 41, I thought.

[Overlag]

Where did you get that from?  Sources?

The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.

The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.

The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.

Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."

funny they are all allied planes you mention.

ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???

[Adonai]

Where did you get that from?  Sources?

The F6F-5 produced more fighter aces in WWII than any other aircraft.

The Spit MkV was largely credited with winning the Battle of Britan.

The P-51 was acclaimed as, if not the best, among the best Allied fighters.

Both the 109 and 190 were fine aircraft, I'd just like to see where the 190 was "in fact proven to be the best fighter of WWII."

Fw 190 was adapted for every role it took on, Earliest model was air superiority fighter - outclassed Spitfire and anything russians had available.
Later models for example: Fw190a8 designed for bombers alone, FW190F/G For ground attack, FW190d9 again an interceptor, Ta-152 the last version of the 190s as high alt interceptor. I'm not looking at how many aces it produced, rather how well it performed - its easy to argue me109 produced the highest aces however you look its models and it wasn't adapted for half things it did: ground attack it wasn't suitable for ground work, bomber interceptor didn't carry enough ords to do a decent job (get in, fight, get out) as gondolas would hurt performance.
P-51 was a fine long range escort fighter, but look at its ground attack performance - single shot to the coolant its down.

You can't compare an F6F-5 or even Corsair simply the japanese had nothing to combat either plane with equal numbers. Any argument can be made saying the Zero was the best fighter simply nothing could match it, what happened when F6F and corsair introduced?
I'm going by facts shown in the books, while you can argue this all day long (P-47 is my 2nd choice for war winner) being it was re-adapted many times for ground support / intercepting V-1 bombers).

I based my comment off research and not simply "what won the war" but more so towards what the plane did as a workhorse.
Yes its opinion based, as I can get 100 historians that could choose 100 different planes to be the "best of the best" based on stats.
I would say P-47 / Fw190 would be top 2 I would only have the Fw190 ahead by little by being introduced 2 years earlier, and having a little more experience.

[BaldEagl]

funny they are all allied planes you mention.

ever thought that because the USA and its allies won the war, they are the guys that write the History? Would it be too much to say that allied aircraft only "won" because they was part of the Bish (err i mean allied) horde???

Look, I love the German birds.  My four primary rides are the 109K-4, 190A-8, F6F-5 and Spit XVI.  I just want to see the sources that back up the claim he made because I've never heard it.  Maybe the best German fighter.  I could have believed that but not best overall.

I'm not starting an argument or anything.  I'm just challenging his statement and if he can provide sources then great.

[EDIT]  OK.  I just saw your post.  So, "proven to be the best" was just your opinion then.  In the future you should add "IMO it was the best..."