Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: spit16nooby on July 04, 2008, 05:08:48 PM
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I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability. I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot. What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.
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fly the hurri, with drops and 50% fuel, learn some ACM, become a better shot,
the better shot will most often beat the better stick.
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Sometimes all you can do is wear them out. Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them. Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake. You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.
I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night. I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX. By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.
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Sometimes all you can do is wear them out. Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them. Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake. You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.
I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night. I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX. By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.
the only problem with this is eventually you will give the hurri the shot he needs, but if you are good at BnZ,(boring), this is the best way to kill them.
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fly the hurri, with drops and 50% fuel, learn some ACM, become a better shot,
the better shot will most often beat the better stick.
I do know some acm and know how to keep from getting killed but I have trouble getting around that to get the shot.
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I do know some acm and know how to keep from getting killed but I have trouble getting around that to get the shot.
Killing for you will be about practice practice practice.
BnZ shooting is harder than saddling up on someone and shooting them from 200 feet. your plane though won't be able to saddle up on those quick little turners most of the time.
Practice in off line mode shooting at the drones. Keep diving at them till you can hit them without having to get slow and saddle up on their tails .
There's no "trick" for better shooting. It's just a point of you getting better at it. Only way to do that is with practice.
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Damionte pretty much nails it. The K-4 is an entirely different beast (and let's give her the respect she deserves, she IS a beast) and flying a ship like that is a whole new ballgame. You have to take any shot you can get, so can't afford to wait for a nice six shot. Any time your target crosses your guns, whatever the angle, you have to be ready to pull the trigger. This is the thing the guys who think stall-speed turning on the deck is the only way to fight don't want to realize, is that hit-and-run fighting is not cut, dry and dull, but presents a whole new set of challenges.
You have to know how far to extend. Sure, you can make all your passes from 5k out, but that's just going to give your opponent time to breathe and react. 190s sitting at altitude and picking from 5000yds barreling through at 500mph are irritating, but generally easy to see coming and get out of the way of unless you have to deal with another con. The guys I worry about most don't extend much beyond 1500yds to set up their next pass.
Keep your speed up. The first thing those Spits, Zekes and Hurricanes are going to do is try to bleed you of E so they can get you into a slow turn fight where they'll eat you alive. If he breaks, DON'T FOLLOW. Nose up and extend, or use energy-saving maneuvers (lag rolls, high yo-yos, etc) to pursue without blowing your energy.
As Baldy said: Use the vertical. Remember that you've probably got energy, so long as you don't give them a nice fat overshoot they shouldn't be able to touch you. Go vertical BEFORE you overshoot. Set yourself a minimum range to pull out, and if you can't get a shot in that time break off and point your nose in the air. Your zoom should leave any opponent wallowing in your slipstream if they try to follow you up.
Practice your gunnery. Know your weapons: How fast do they cycle? What's their muzzle velocity? How much does the round drop after firing? If it's a machine gun, what's its most effective range? Do you have a mix of machine guns and cannon? Are they wing-mounted, nose-mounted or mixed? Set your convergence to where you feel most comfortable. Learn how much lead you need to give. If you have a mixed package (most German Iron, P-38s, P-39s, etc) you need to account for the different rates of fire, muzzle velocities and round drop. If you want to take a snap-shot with the 30mm spud gun you need to give a lot more lead than you do with US .50cal or the Hispano 20mm.
In a BnZ fight you can't count on a nice clean shot. You HAVE to be prepared to take a high-deflection snap-shot. Fly to where your target is GOING to be and take that shot, even if it's the worst possible deflection angle imaginable. As long as you know exactly where to put your guns you've still got him.
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You know how many of my Zero's your going to cost me now Saxman? :furious
Haha in all seriousness though that's topnotch advise. As a Zero pilot myself it's best to stay above me, keep fast but don't extend to far. If your going out 3K or more then coming back in I can dodge you all night most likely, but the guys who only go to about 1.5k and are already looping on my tail usually have me killing so much E to get out of the way I have no chance to counter besides to run, and you don't run far in an A6M.
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Bravo Sax.
Only one thing to add. You're going to kind of be "cutting them off at the pass" alot. Coming in on a guy's six, he is turning, you pick out where he is going to when you are in gun range, and fly your plane to aim your guns there. Not towards where he is now. Here is the danger: Occasionally an opponent will see you doing this, by either training or instinct know what you are doing, and will have enough turn rate to fly towards you. If he is smart he will try to fly under you to give you the most difficult gun solution imaginable and a good chance of blowing your position if you miss. You should probably zoom and save E here. If he is an IDIOT, and there are many idiots, he will sometimes instead just fly towards you guns blazing. Then you got to be ready to dodge AND save E for the next pass.
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Sometimes all you can do is wear them out. Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them. Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake. You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.
I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night. I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX. By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.
what do you do if he gains alt in his avoidence maneuvers? it's pretty much a given that you're going to lose a little alt on each pass. if he's got enough energy though, he'll try to gain alt on each of your passes.
i was flying a zeke, and did this to a 38 one night. problem i had was that he ran....not extended.....he ran. i gave chase for a couple miles, then decided to turn and see what he did. when i had completed my 180, he was out of icon range. kinda sucks, because i know who it was and this person is a very good 38 stick,,,,,,not as good as murdr, or akak, but still very very good........woulda been a fun fight.
<S>>
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what do you do if he gains alt in his avoidence maneuvers? it's pretty much a given that you're going to lose a little alt on each pass. if he's got enough energy though, he'll try to gain alt on each of your passes.
i was flying a zeke, and did this to a 38 one night. problem i had was that he ran....not extended.....he ran. i gave chase for a couple miles, then decided to turn and see what he did. when i had completed my 180, he was out of icon range. kinda sucks, because i know who it was and this person is a very good 38 stick,,,,,,not as good as murdr, or akak, but still very very good........woulda been a fun fight.
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Well you've got to realize that any competent 38 pilot is not going to get caught up in a turn fight with a zeke. If he ran, thats a whole different story, but if I was that pilot I would extend a ways out from the zeke and then try my luck at a rope.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2639101726_4f3066a693_o.png)
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When you up a Zero, you are pretty much guaranteeing that most of the plane set is going to be forced to attacking you with E tactics and disengaging once energy parity is achieved.
If he was as good a stick as you say, then he darn well knew whether or not he had enough E to continue the fight with a good chance. "Trying your luck at a rope" is a bad idea, if you don't KNOW you have enough E to rope, it is a suicidally dumb thing to attempt. And taking the time to build a usable E advantage on Zero in a P-38 from a co-E state with one on your six would be tedious, especially given the timeframes a 2X fuel burn makes for.
What Cap1 should have said in his post was "It would have been a fun fight...................for ME, as my Zero cut the corner on his much less maneuverable aircraft, saddled up, and chewed large pieces off of all that P-38 planform."
If you don't want other planes running from you, try a Mustang, a Dora, a Typh etc. Other kinds of aircraft can't escape, and mostly they'll be running TOWARDS you.
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Well you've got to realize that any competent 38 pilot is not going to get caught up in a turn fight with a zeke. If he ran, thats a whole different story, but if I was that pilot I would extend a ways out from the zeke and then try my luck at a rope.
that is exactly what i was expecting him to do......or climb, and then try to e-fight me.......but there was no need to run, as i've been hammered by plenty of 38's.....and spits, and hurris, and f6f's, and......aaww hell, just abut everything with wings!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl
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When you up a Zero, you are pretty much guaranteeing that most of the plane set is going to be forced to attacking you with E tactics and disengaging once energy parity is achieved.
If he was as good a stick as you say, then he darn well knew whether or not he had enough E to continue the fight with a good chance. "Trying your luck at a rope" is a bad idea, if you don't KNOW you have enough E to rope, it is a suicidally dumb thing to attempt. And taking the time to build a usable E advantage on Zero in a P-38 from a co-E state with one on your six would be tedious, especially given the timeframes a 2X fuel burn makes for.
What Cap1 should have said in his post was "It would have been a fun fight...................for ME, as my Zero cut the corner on his much less maneuverable aircraft, saddled up, and chewed large pieces off of all that P-38 planform."
If you don't want other planes running from you, try a Mustang, a Dora, a Typh etc. Other kinds of aircraft can't escape, and mostly they'll be running TOWARDS you.
you don't understand what i was trying to say. i DID NOT expect him to turnfight with me. but i also did not expect him to simply run. even once i was coalt to him, he had a lot more options to fight. he's much faster than me in the climb, dive, and level. he could've used that to his advantage, and it could've been a fun fight for BOTH of us. it wasn't fun while he was b-n-zing me.
as for runners.....i fought a few hellkittys last night, a zeke or two, a 38......and i lost most of those fights. but they FOUGHT, which made it fun anyway....cept that dude in the zeke at A77 i think it was........friggin mosnter in that zeke. :aok
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what do you do if he gains alt in his avoidence maneuvers? it's pretty much a given that you're going to lose a little alt on each pass. if he's got enough energy though, he'll try to gain alt on each of your passes.
i was flying a zeke, and did this to a 38 one night. problem i had was that he ran....not extended.....he ran. i gave chase for a couple miles, then decided to turn and see what he did. when i had completed my 180, he was out of icon range. kinda sucks, because i know who it was and this person is a very good 38 stick,,,,,,not as good as murdr, or akak, but still very very good........woulda been a fun fight.
<S>>
The key is not to allow him enough E to be able to gain alt. That's why the reversals have to happen just outside of guns range. You have to keep the pressure on him at all times, keeping him flat turning on the deck. If he's gaining alt you haven't put enough pressure on him. A Zeke might be a little better but a Hurri without E climbs like a dump truck.
It is not a given under these circumstances that you will lose E and start to lose alt with each pass. The 109 with WEP can climb back to any alt it cares to with ease.
This tactic works in almost any plane against the TnB fighters.
BTW, great writeup saxman. That's what I meant but didn't state it so eloquently.
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you don't understand what i was trying to say. i DID NOT expect him to turnfight with me. but i also did not expect him to simply run. even once i was coalt to him, he had a lot more options to fight. he's much faster than me in the climb, dive, and level. he could've used that to his advantage, and it could've been a fun fight for BOTH of us. it wasn't fun while he was b-n-zing me.
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And as I pointed out, once his advantage was lost and you were on his six more or less Co-E, the P-38's E building properties aren't so much greater than an A6Ms (at typical MA alts) that he is likely to build a useable E advantage over a smart Zeke pilot in a timely manner, I.E., within the 30 minutes or so of fuel planes on average carry in the MA. And if he couldn't beat you from his initial position of advantage, he is not going to beat you once he has blown that position.
I'm sure it was QUITE fun for HIM while he was b'n'zing you, up until the moment he realized he hadn't achieved a gun solution and had lost position. Then I'm sure he was cussing himself up one side and down the other for screwing up. I would be in his shoes.
Making the other plane go boom=fun. The other plane making you go boom=diametric opposite of fun. Bugging when you could have had a kill SUCKS, but it beats the hell out of "XXX shot you down."
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When you up a Zero, you are pretty much guaranteeing that most of the plane set is going to be forced to attacking you with E tactics and disengaging once energy parity is achieved
if i recall, i upped a zeke for that run as we were defending......most of the lower enemies had been dispatched by then, so i went out from the field to climb abnd wait for them. that's when i came under the higher 38.......
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And as I pointed out, once his advantage was lost and you were on his six more or less Co-E, the P-38's E building properties aren't so much greater than an A6Ms (at typical MA alts) that he is likely to build a useable E advantage over a smart Zeke pilot in a timely manner, I.E., within the 30 minutes or so of fuel planes on average carry in the MA. And if he couldn't beat you from his initial position of advantage, he is not going to beat you once he has blown that position.
I'm sure it was QUITE fun for HIM while he was b'n'zing you, up until the moment he realized he hadn't achieved a gun solution and had lost position. Then I'm sure he was cussing himself up one side and down the other for screwing up. I would be in his shoes.
Making the other plane go boom=fun. The other plane making you go boom=diametric opposite of fun. Bugging when you could have had a kill SUCKS, but it beats the hell out of "XXX shot you down."
well, to be honest...i was just glad to have survived that fight............ :D
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I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability. I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot. What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.
You will never "out slow" a Zeke or a Hurri in a 109-anything.
If you are trying to kill either of those planes in the horizontal ... you will die most likely.
For the 109 to kill either of those planes, you must use the vertical to establish better angles for the snapshot.
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Not to split Slap's hairs again, but you can out-horizontal the best TnBers in the BnZ planes.. You just have the odds largely against you, and if you miss the target by even an inch.. You're even more likely to get nailed for the next 2-5 revolutions, till you regain some speed.
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I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability. I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot. What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.
If u have not yet check out agent360s training videos..He flys the k-4 in them ,and dukes it out with a few spittys..I think even a hurry ,but I could be wrong about that...I no there are no zekes in there though.Still spittys turn better than the k-4 and he does a good job. :salute and good luck!
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If u have not yet check out agent360s training videos..He flys the k-4 in them ,and dukes it out with a few spittys..I think even a hurry ,but I could be wrong about that...I no there are no zekes in there though.Still spittys turn better than the k-4 and he does a good job. :salute and good luck!
WELL, i think that6 may be due to what others have said in other posts. although many planes have distinct advantages in certian situations, they can be overcome by smart flying.
i think it's more the pilot than the plane. i've been in zekes and been beaten by planes that shouldn;t be able to. same for hellkittys, 38's hurricanes, etc.
a skilled pilot in a fast plane i think can get away with turning with a dedicated turnfighter..as long as he knows when to disengage and reset the fight.
anyway, guess, maybe i should get back ingame more....especially judging by my performance last night. parts of my planes are littered all over the landscape of MW :rofl
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i'm sure i'm just repeating what everyone else already has but I enjoy flying both the spit and the k4 and the k4, imho is a pure BnZ fighter. It climbs like a bat out of hell and I do excellent in the vertical. The only thing that sucks about it is the fact that its fuel hungry (short range) and has limited cannon power. As soon as those cannons are out (use sparingly) then i'm rtb. Don't fight the spit/zero fight. Use that badass climb ability especially with the wep. the K4 is a monster and if you can learn to sneak in real tight and lay some cannon shots in on them then you are golden. Beware the crummy dive characteristics. I can't begin to tell you how many times i've augered in because I got fixated on the target or thought i had enough altitude to pull out. This is just a ballpark figure, not sure what the exact speed is but the K4's controls cease to work effectively after around 400kts in a dive. then you are f*cked. hope this helped :salute
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Don't fight the spit/zero fight.
I consider myself to be a slightly above average fighter pilot. One night I was flying a Spit IX and engaged a K4. To my surprise, the pilot of that K4 turn fought me and not only did he turn fight me, he did so for a good five minutes with neither of us gaining an advantage. I did finally get the kill but not until my palms were sweaty and my heart was racing. I've run into that pilot on several occasions since then and all I can tell you is that when you do your in for a good fight. He really knows how to handle that K4.
<S> Agent.
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I consider myself to be a slightly above average fighter pilot. One night I was flying a Spit IX and engaged a K4. To my surprise, the pilot of that K4 turn fought me and not only did he turn fight me, he did so for a good five minutes with neither of us gaining an advantage. I did finally get the kill but not until my palms were sweaty and my heart was racing. I've run into that pilot on several occasions since then and all I can tell you is that when you do your in for a good fight. He really knows how to handle that K4.
<S> Agent.
One of the best K-4 pilots in the game. He puts himself into all sorts of long-shot situations where he usually ends up shot down, but out flies everyone during the whole fight before they get the kill.
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One of the best K-4 pilots in the game. He puts himself into all sorts of long-shot situations where he usually ends up shot down, but out flies everyone during the whole fight before they get the kill.
I remember Creaton he was the best I ever seen in a k-4... Dont no were he went last seen a few months ago but his kid was flying with his tag..I went 1 on 1 with Agent a few months ago in all the 109 models..It was even till we got into the k-4.. :salute
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One of the best K-4 pilots in the game. He puts himself into all sorts of long-shot situations where he usually ends up shot down, but out flies everyone during the whole fight before they get the kill.
Unless they wize up and run like chicken.
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I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability. I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot. What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.
Saxman has some very good points to follow.
I would add a few things.
Stay somewhat fast....less than 300. Each time he break turns you turn hard the opposite way and come around as fast as you can (pull to blackout and buffet). Miss his guns by going under or over in a lead turn. Take it up but stay close. Dont go up 2k away. Stay close. Keep your self turning into them. But also keep turning up. Gain your speed back coming down...turn the opposite way. go up and cut throttle some at the top roll and drop back in.
Always stay close. IF you get seperated more than 1.5 k you allow him to get E back.
You have to throw out some bait by turning into them. This will keep them pulling for guns.
You will usually end up catching them trying to turn back on you in a dive. And you will usually get close to get shots.
The point is to keep the pressure on. Stay close as you can. But use the vert climb and roll to stay out of guns.
Remember you can create an easy overshoot anytime by turning back into them....waiting for them to come for guns...go strait a sec then go up and roll over into them. IF you miss immediatly turn the opposite way from them and come around again head to head or make a lead turn again and go up and over. This works really good on zeeks.
Once you get the turns going into each other watch your throttle. Mangage it and use flaps.
Do NOT get into a sustained turn with any of them. Follow only for a half turn. Then go strait up and roll the opposite way from the turn. You will have all the E and they will have none. Now you can slow some of needed drop flaps and pull in for a shot. If you miss keep the opposite turning going. What ever you do dont follow into the flat turn. Keep the angles going.
S! thanks for the kind words guys.
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Thanks guys for all the help ill make sure to implement these tactics. by the way I have watched and learned alot from agent's video.
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I consider myself to be a slightly above average fighter pilot. One night I was flying a Spit IX and engaged a K4. To my surprise, the pilot of that K4 turn fought me and not only did he turn fight me, he did so for a good five minutes with neither of us gaining an advantage. I did finally get the kill but not until my palms were sweaty and my heart was racing. I've run into that pilot on several occasions since then and all I can tell you is that when you do your in for a good fight. He really knows how to handle that K4.
<S> Agent.
And the key to it here is Agent or any number of guys aren't afraid to mix it up and find out how far they can push it in their ride of choice. As an incompentant 38G pilot, I find myself in turn fights with Zekes, Hurris, Spits etc. The more I do it, the more I find I can push it further and the more confident I get fighting those birds that should eat up my big target.
If you find a K4 low, more then likely it will be Agent and you know he'll fight ya for the sake of the fight, win or lose. The list is long of guys like that who don't mind testing the limits of thier birds, even from a disadvantage because it's a challenge, and they understand that part of getting better is not being afraid to lose now and then. It's those kind of fights that make the game worth playing in my opinion.
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Not to split Slap's hairs again, but you can out-horizontal the best TnBers in the BnZ planes.. You just have the odds largely against you, and if you miss the target by even an inch.. You're even more likely to get nailed for the next 2-5 revolutions, till you regain some speed.
Well ... I did say ... you will die most likely. ... :P
That meant that there is a slight chance, that for maybe 1 or 2 turns, you might get guns on, but if you don't get it after that, then you're in big trouble.
I was just trying to get him to think about the "vertical". It's that 3rd dimension that most new pilots don't really take advantage of.
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Sometimes all you can do is wear them out. Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them. Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake. You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.
I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night. I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX. By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.
I had exactly this scenario played out against me last night by a 190D-9 while I was flying an F6F-5. Instead of continually turning though, I'd turn to avoid his run at me, continue 180 then level with WEP on (trying to make a run for home). I tried climbing a couple of times but was never able to match his zoom climb and it put me in precarious position almost directly below him (not where you want to be against a D-9 which can roll over on you for the cockpit shot before you know what happened).
He had started with about a 10K+ alt advantage while I was hitting a V Base. He took at least 10-15 passes on me as I dragged him 1-1.5 sectors toward my base. To his credit, he rarely extended beyond 1.5K, although he did hit 2-2.5 a couple of times. As I approached my base he turned up the pressure realizing I might escape and I finally made a mistake. I pulled too far into the vertical to avoid a pass and hung myself in a stall. That was it.
In my frustration afterward all I could do was type "lame" on 200, to which he replaied by <S>ing me. It was far from lame. He did exactly what he should have and had complete control of me. If your reading this <S>. Well played!
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I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability. I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot. What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.
It isn't the plane. It's the person controlling it. I had a K4 in a 1 vs 1 situation a few tours ago. He ran home out of fright after trying to pick on top of a CV borne furball. I chased him in an La7 on fumes. I caught him and by the completion of his 2nd loop, he was doing dishes in the tower. I had enough fuel to land. It was not a two weeker that did this either. It was someone well known and my opinion of him changed then.
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Killing for you will be about practice practice practice.
BnZ shooting is harder than saddling up on someone and shooting them from 200 feet. your plane though won't be able to saddle up on those quick little turners most of the time.
Practice in off line mode shooting at the drones. Keep diving at them till you can hit them without having to get slow and saddle up on their tails .
There's no "trick" for better shooting. It's just a point of you getting better at it. Only way to do that is with practice.
U DONT NO WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT :rock
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U DONT NO WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT :rock
I AGREE WITH THE PRACTICE PART ONLEY :O
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I caught him and by the completion of his 2nd loop, he was doing dishes in the tower.
theres a sink in the tower? why did no one tell me this?? my aces high mug is stinking :eek:
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Im sure this has been mentioned, however, start with more E, and fight the vertical with em. Some planes, like the spit 16 and la-7, may hold a climb with your K4, these planes will generally kick your arse, but with some expierence youll find a weak spot in thier performance and get em more and more.
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Im sure this has been mentioned, however, start with more E, and fight the vertical with em. Some planes, like the spit 16 and la-7, may hold a climb with your K4, these planes will generally kick your arse, but with some expierence youll find a weak spot in thier performance and get em more and more.
lol if you stay above five k youll hardly ever have to deal with a la7
i was surprised the other night i was turn fighting a yak think its the one with the 37mm and i was turning very well with him even with 2 nothces out. i didnt kill him i ran out of cannon but i was surprised i was able to hang with him.
though my roll rate got realy sluggish he must have been new cause i should have over hot many times.
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lol if you stay above five k youll hardly ever have to deal with a la7
dont la's do thier best at 10K+?
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La-7 is a low-altitude fighter. If I catch an La-7 above 10k he's lunch (they make for a nice mid-day snack on the deck, too ;) ). I love it even better when they try to climb to 15,000.
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The performance on the La-7 does drop off above 10K, but it's not like they become instantly worthless at the 10K mark. Still, I'd rather deal with one up high than down low :)
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And the key to it here is Agent or any number of guys aren't afraid to mix it up and find out how far they can push it in their ride of choice. As an incompentant 38G pilot, I find myself in turn fights with Zekes, Hurris, Spits etc. The more I do it, the more I find I can push it further and the more confident I get fighting those birds that should eat up my big target.
If you find a K4 low, more then likely it will be Agent and you know he'll fight ya for the sake of the fight, win or lose. The list is long of guys like that who don't mind testing the limits of thier birds, even from a disadvantage because it's a challenge, and they understand that part of getting better is not being afraid to lose now and then. It's those kind of fights that make the game worth playing in my opinion.
Ive been finding more success turn fighting the 38 when using the verticle as much as possible.