Beating the turners

[spit16nooby]

I fly the 109k-4 a lot and I have problems killing planes such as the zero and the hurrri that have amazing horizontal manuevarability.  I just can't seem to get them in a position that they are too slow to manuever or were I have a snapshot.  What are some strategies that I can use to beat sharp turning planes like these.

[ink]

fly the hurri, with drops and 50% fuel, learn some ACM, become a better shot,

the better shot will most often beat the better stick.

[BaldEagl]

Sometimes all you can do is wear them out.  Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them.  Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake.  You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.

I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night.  I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX.  By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.

[ink]

Sometimes all you can do is wear them out.  Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them.  Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake.  You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.

I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night.  I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX.  By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.

the only problem with this is eventually you will give the hurri the shot he needs, but if you are good at BnZ,(boring), this is the best way to kill them.

[spit16nooby]

fly the hurri, with drops and 50% fuel, learn some ACM, become a better shot,

the better shot will most often beat the better stick.

I do know some acm and know how to keep from getting killed but I have trouble getting around that to get the shot.

[Damionte]

I do know some acm and know how to keep from getting killed but I have trouble getting around that to get the shot.

Killing for you will be about practice practice practice.

BnZ shooting is harder than saddling up on someone and shooting them from 200 feet. your plane though won't be able to saddle up on those quick little turners most of the time.

Practice in off line mode shooting at the drones. Keep diving at them till you can hit them without having to get slow and saddle up on their tails .

There's no "trick" for better shooting. It's just a point of you getting better at it. Only way to do that is with practice.

[Saxman]

Damionte pretty much nails it. The K-4 is an entirely different beast (and let's give her the respect she deserves, she IS a beast) and flying a ship like that is a whole new ballgame. You have to take any shot you can get, so can't afford to wait for a nice six shot. Any time your target crosses your guns, whatever the angle, you have to be ready to pull the trigger. This is the thing the guys who think stall-speed turning on the deck is the only way to fight don't want to realize, is that hit-and-run fighting is not cut, dry and dull, but presents a whole new set of challenges.

You have to know how far to extend. Sure, you can make all your passes from 5k out, but that's just going to give your opponent time to breathe and react. 190s sitting at altitude and picking from 5000yds barreling through at 500mph are irritating, but generally easy to see coming and get out of the way of unless you have to deal with another con. The guys I worry about most don't extend much beyond 1500yds to set up their next pass.

Keep your speed up. The first thing those Spits, Zekes and Hurricanes are going to do is try to bleed you of E so they can get you into a slow turn fight where they'll eat you alive. If he breaks, DON'T FOLLOW. Nose up and extend, or use energy-saving maneuvers (lag rolls, high yo-yos, etc) to pursue without blowing your energy.

As Baldy said: Use the vertical. Remember that you've probably got energy, so long as you don't give them a nice fat overshoot they shouldn't be able to touch you. Go vertical BEFORE you overshoot. Set yourself a minimum range to pull out, and if you can't get a shot in that time break off and point your nose in the air. Your zoom should leave any opponent wallowing in your slipstream if they try to follow you up.

Practice your gunnery. Know your weapons: How fast do they cycle? What's their muzzle velocity? How much does the round drop after firing? If it's a machine gun, what's its most effective range? Do you have a mix of machine guns and cannon? Are they wing-mounted, nose-mounted or mixed? Set your convergence to where you feel most comfortable. Learn how much lead you need to give. If you have a mixed package (most German Iron, P-38s, P-39s, etc) you need to account for the different rates of fire, muzzle velocities and round drop. If you want to take a snap-shot with the 30mm spud gun you need to give a lot more lead than you do with US .50cal or the Hispano 20mm.

In a BnZ fight you can't count on a nice clean shot. You HAVE to be prepared to take a high-deflection snap-shot. Fly to where your target is GOING to be and take that shot, even if it's the worst possible deflection angle imaginable. As long as you know exactly where to put your guns you've still got him.

[AirFlyer]

You know how many of my Zero's your going to cost me now Saxman? 

Haha in all seriousness though that's topnotch advise. As a Zero pilot myself it's best to stay above me, keep fast but don't extend to far. If your going out 3K or more then coming back in I can dodge you all night most likely, but the guys who only go to about 1.5k and are already looping on my tail usually have me killing so much E to get out of the way I have no chance to counter besides to run, and you don't run far in an A6M.

[BnZ]

Bravo Sax.

Only one thing to add. You're going to kind of be "cutting them off at the pass" alot. Coming in on a guy's six, he is turning, you pick out where he is going to when you are in gun range, and fly your plane to aim your guns there. Not towards where he is now.  Here is the danger: Occasionally an opponent will see you doing this, by either training or instinct know what you are doing, and will have enough turn rate to fly towards you. If he is smart he will try to fly under you to give you the most difficult gun solution imaginable and a good chance of blowing your position if you miss. You should probably zoom and save E here. If he is an IDIOT, and there are many idiots, he will sometimes instead just fly towards you guns blazing. Then you got to be ready to dodge AND save E for the next pass.

[CAP1]

Sometimes all you can do is wear them out.  Use your vertical abilities to climb just out of their guns range, reverse and dive in on them.  Keep doing it over and over until they make a mistake.  You might not ever get the kill but you can totally control them making them wish you had never shown up.

I did this to a Spit V with a K-4 one night.  I had him pinned down for almost ten minutes until I broke off to kill a Spit IX.  By the time I did and caught the V again he was flying into his town ack so I broke off again and flew home.

what do you do if he gains alt in his avoidence maneuvers? it's pretty much a given that you're going to lose a little alt on each pass. if he's got enough energy though, he'll try to gain alt on each of your passes.

 i was flying a zeke, and did this to a 38 one night. problem i had was that he ran....not extended.....he ran. i gave chase for a couple miles, then decided to turn and see what he did. when i had completed my 180, he was out of icon range. kinda sucks, because i know who it was and this person is a very good 38 stick,,,,,,not as good as murdr, or akak, but still very very good........woulda been a fun fight.

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[DaveJ]

what do you do if he gains alt in his avoidence maneuvers? it's pretty much a given that you're going to lose a little alt on each pass. if he's got enough energy though, he'll try to gain alt on each of your passes.

 i was flying a zeke, and did this to a 38 one night. problem i had was that he ran....not extended.....he ran. i gave chase for a couple miles, then decided to turn and see what he did. when i had completed my 180, he was out of icon range. kinda sucks, because i know who it was and this person is a very good 38 stick,,,,,,not as good as murdr, or akak, but still very very good........woulda been a fun fight.

<S>>

Well you've got to realize that any competent 38 pilot is not going to get caught up in a turn fight with a zeke. If he ran, thats a whole different story, but if I was that pilot I would extend a ways out from the zeke and then try my luck at a rope.

[moot]

[BnZ]

When you up a Zero, you are pretty much guaranteeing that most of the plane set is going to be forced to attacking you with E tactics and disengaging once energy parity is achieved.

If he was as good a stick as you say, then he darn well knew whether or not he had enough E to continue the fight with a good chance. "Trying your luck at a rope" is a bad idea, if you don't KNOW you have enough E to rope, it is a suicidally dumb thing to attempt. And taking the time to build a usable E advantage on Zero in a P-38 from a co-E state with one on your six would be tedious, especially given the timeframes a 2X fuel burn makes for.

What Cap1 should have said in his post was "It would have been a fun fight...................for ME, as my Zero cut the corner on his much less maneuverable aircraft, saddled up, and chewed large pieces off of all that P-38 planform."

If you don't want other planes running from you, try a Mustang, a Dora, a Typh etc. Other kinds of aircraft can't escape, and mostly they'll be running TOWARDS you.

[CAP1]

Well you've got to realize that any competent 38 pilot is not going to get caught up in a turn fight with a zeke. If he ran, thats a whole different story, but if I was that pilot I would extend a ways out from the zeke and then try my luck at a rope.

that is exactly what i was expecting him to do......or climb, and then try to e-fight me.......but there was no need to run, as i've been hammered by plenty of 38's.....and spits, and hurris, and f6f's, and......aaww hell, just abut everything with wings!!!

[CAP1]

When you up a Zero, you are pretty much guaranteeing that most of the plane set is going to be forced to attacking you with E tactics and disengaging once energy parity is achieved.

If he was as good a stick as you say, then he darn well knew whether or not he had enough E to continue the fight with a good chance. "Trying your luck at a rope" is a bad idea, if you don't KNOW you have enough E to rope, it is a suicidally dumb thing to attempt. And taking the time to build a usable E advantage on Zero in a P-38 from a co-E state with one on your six would be tedious, especially given the timeframes a 2X fuel burn makes for.

What Cap1 should have said in his post was "It would have been a fun fight...................for ME, as my Zero cut the corner on his much less maneuverable aircraft, saddled up, and chewed large pieces off of all that P-38 planform."

If you don't want other planes running from you, try a Mustang, a Dora, a Typh etc. Other kinds of aircraft can't escape, and mostly they'll be running TOWARDS you.

you don't understand what i was trying to say. i DID NOT expect him to turnfight with me. but i also did not expect him to simply run. even once i was coalt to him, he had a lot more options to fight. he's much faster than me in the climb, dive, and level. he could've used that to his advantage, and it could've been a fun fight for BOTH of us. it wasn't fun while he was b-n-zing me.

 as for runners.....i fought a few hellkittys last night, a zeke or two, a 38......and i lost most of those fights. but they FOUGHT, which made it fun anyway....cept that dude in the zeke at A77 i think it was........friggin mosnter in that zeke.

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