Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: titanic3 on July 30, 2008, 08:30:22 PM
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What is the best maneuver at the top of a stall fight? Is it better to left/right rudder and spin around? Or just pull hard on the stick and make a U? These are the planes that I use to stall fight.
Me/Bf-109
P-51
Yak-7
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I like to drop a notch or two of flaps and come over on my back, raising my flaps again as soon as my nose is coming back down. That works quickest/easiest for me (in the F4U).
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What exactly do you mean by 'top of the stall fight'?
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You really shouldn't be stallfighting in a 51, or a Yak we dont even have, for that matter.
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When I need to do a reversal in my B-25H, and I don't have enough E (energy) for an Immelman, I go up about half-way, then use full rudder, full opposite aileron and pull all the way back on the stick. That gets me doing something like a hammerhead (I think).
I'm still working on when to use the flaps (in any plane).
<S>
Yossarian
EDIT: I do the above manoeuvre when my plane is completely stalled, or just won't really go up much further.
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Yak. As it starts to stall, smoothly reduce the throttle to let the nose drop down to the left and control nose direction with small amount of rudder to keep it nice and straight while gently bringing the power back on.
Never try hold the stall at the top for too long and always let the torque do the work with for you.
<S>...-Gixer
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That depends on your skill level there are some more difficult manouvers to pull at the top, for example with the 109(g14 and k4) there is the "flip trick" manover, at the top (guessing the con is below you) you pull up chop throttle rudder left 2 notches flaps full throttle with wep. All of this must be preformed in very little time, and youll flip over so quickly the con will see you head to head before he stalls.
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P 38 prety easy in a stall fight
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P 38 prety easy in a stall fight
Do you mean it's easy to fight it or easy to fly it, because neither is true.
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The 38 is easy to put in a controlled stall.
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The 38 is easy to put in a controlled stall.
You must be SAPPer.
To me, it has nasty stall characteristics, hence I can hardly control its stall. Snap rolls are difficult too. The only time I can control the stall is on the top reversals.
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I like to drop a notch or two of flaps and come over on my back, raising my flaps again as soon as my nose is coming back down. That works quickest/easiest for me (in the F4U).
I am having trouble picturing this.... What do the flaps do for you if you are upside down..
Thanks
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yea with the duel tail and engine i find it easy to kick the rudder right at the top of the stall and she goes over like a old man easing himself in a warm bath.
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I am having trouble picturing this.... What do the flaps do for you if you are upside down..
What happens when you drop flaps in level flight?
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P 38 prety easy in a stall fight
P-38 stalls?
ack-ack
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You must be SAPPer.
To me, it has nasty stall characteristics, hence I can hardly control its stall. Snap rolls are difficult too. The only time I can control the stall is on the top reversals.
Really? I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game. Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.
The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.
I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html) before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.
ack-ack
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What happens when you drop flaps in level flight?
Ohhhhh lift... so it pushes you down when up sidedown.....
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I am having trouble picturing this.... What do the flaps do for you if you are upside down..
Thanks
If you're inverted at the top of a loop and near stall speed, you can deploy a notch of flaps and it will help swing your nose down quicker over the top of the loop.
ack-ack
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Really? I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game. Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.
The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.
I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html) before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.
ack-ack
Yeah, especially if I compare it to lets say 109s. Probably because how I work the rudder in torque challenged rides. Guess it's a bad habit when in p-38.
I can recover the nose dips somehow, but boy, if I enter one of those nasty spins. I don't have so much trouble with top reversals tho. Still, I stall it twice as much as any other plane. I guess I need more practice in it.
Thanks for the video link. Cool stuff.
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the more power you have on the way down the wider you will pull up and the less time you will have to shoot. kinda obvious but something most people seem oblivious to. Although most MA flyers also seem unable to locate the throttle aside from taking off. When you find someone turn fighting in an la7 at 120mph.... be afraid.
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Really? I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game. Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.
The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.
I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html) before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.
ack-ack
wow great site i've never seen any of those films but i have read the manuals for the 38 and spit 9
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Interesting topic.
Lets dig a little deeper on this subject.
What are you trying to accomplish with this maneuver?
1. Create a gun solution.
2. Create an over shoot.
3. Create an turn that gains angles and leads to a gun solution, overshoot or escape
What you do and how you do it are dependant upon what your goal is.
I think you meant how to get guns on this maneuver. But there are two other possibilites when doing this kind of maneuver.
Thnik of it like the Blue Angels show move when they all go verticle and split off and perfect angles pulling out to level. It looks like a star.
The angle coming out at the top determins where your nose will be pointing when you come down.
If I pull up to a verticle line (90 deg), chop to flaps, Wep/tork/rudder it around 180 deg to left at stall I should get guns but I am just hanging there and if I miss I am immediatly defensive.
But if I want to get offensive fast I can create the overshoot giving up the guns in favor of better position with more enegy.
You have to master the basic hammerhead first. You can also experiment with tail sliding..this is very difficut to do without going to an uncontrolled snap roll. But try it anyway. You will learn all kind of cool things.
First you have to practice this:
Flying a 90 verticle line up using wep. Hold the plane exactly verticle...not nose down or over. verticle. Until the plane goes to a power on stall. At the about 20 speed point push stick forward and tread on the left rudder. Do not use flaps.
The plane will start a slow roll to left and proceed to wing stall if you do nothing but go strait up to 0. To see what happens on auto pilot pull it up to the vert then hit shift/x with wep on and dont touch the controls. Let the plane just do its thing. Then you will understand. Film it and look at it.
From 50 mph to 0 will be the hardest part to control. So, you have to move the controls to keep the plane on the 90 deg verticle line. That means eassssy stick forward, easssssy right roll and very eassssssy right rudder. The goal is to hold the plane against its own tork on the verticle line until it gets to power on stall and then recover by easing off the conrols to allow the tork to pull the nose around and down. You correct appropiatly after the nose drops.
When you can control the plane without snap rolling and nose around then you are ready to do the move.
The move.
You must be below 200 mph for it to work....break turn, chopped zoom, etc.
Verticle line up. Chop to flaps 2 nothces, easy stick forward, Right rudder/left roll to stall, left rudder/wep on. You will have to learn to "feather" all the conrol surfaces and throttle together to get the right mix of control.
For overshoots and escapes you do the same thing but use no flaps and just wing stall ( stick back left/right and opposite rudder). A "controlled" snap roll. Yu can control the heading change by pushing stick forward at different parts of the roll.
It is best to be looking behind you in the verticle. On the pull up when you see them lag behind ( appear to float under your tail moving to your non vissible low six) This is the sign of an overshoot situation. Now you hit the brakes ( chop to flaps) and pull the maneuver. Eventually you will be able to know where they are and how to come out of the verticle with your nose pointing at them.
This maneuver is very handy and is the basis for almost all 109 "majik moves". I call it the "sleadge hammer" after the aerobatic move "headhammer" and the fact that if you do it right the other gets a cockpit full of taters....kaaaaabooom. The sleadge is different in that it involves more of a snap roll. A verticle snap roll if you like.
Agent360
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That depends on your skill level there are some more difficult manouvers to pull at the top, for example with the 109(g14 and k4) there is the "flip trick" manover, at the top (guessing the con is below you) you pull up chop throttle rudder left 2 notches flaps full throttle with wep. All of this must be preformed in very little time, and youll flip over so quickly the con will see you head to head before he stalls.
Exactly how fast should it be done? Can you try to give me a time limit on the entire process?
Interesting topic.
Lets dig a little deeper on this subject.
What are you trying to accomplish with this maneuver?
1. Create a gun solution.
2. Create an over shoot.
3. Create an turn that gains angles and leads to a gun solution, overshoot or escape
What you do and how you do it are dependant upon what your goal is.
I think you meant how to get guns on this maneuver. But there are two other possibilites when doing this kind of maneuver.
Thnik of it like the Blue Angels show move when they all go verticle and split off and perfect angles pulling out to level. It looks like a star.
The angle coming out at the top determins where your nose will be pointing when you come down.
If I pull up to a verticle line (90 deg), chop to flaps, Wep/tork/rudder it around 180 deg to left at stall I should get guns but I am just hanging there and if I miss I am immediatly defensive.
But if I want to get offensive fast I can create the overshoot giving up the guns in favor of better position with more enegy.
You have to master the basic hammerhead first. You can also experiment with tail sliding..this is very difficut to do without going to an uncontrolled snap roll. But try it anyway. You will learn all kind of cool things.
First you have to practice this:
Flying a 90 verticle line up using wep. Hold the plane exactly verticle...not nose down or over. verticle. Until the plane goes to a power on stall. At the about 20 speed point push stick forward and tread on the left rudder. Do not use flaps.
The plane will start a slow roll to left and proceed to wing stall if you do nothing but go strait up to 0. To see what happens on auto pilot pull it up to the vert then hit shift/x with wep on and dont touch the controls. Let the plane just do its thing. Then you will understand. Film it and look at it.
From 50 mph to 0 will be the hardest part to control. So, you have to move the controls to keep the plane on the 90 deg verticle line. That means eassssy stick forward, easssssy right roll and very eassssssy right rudder. The goal is to hold the plane against its own tork on the verticle line until it gets to power on stall and then recover by easing off the conrols to allow the tork to pull the nose around and down. You correct appropiatly after the nose drops.
When you can control the plane without snap rolling and nose around then you are ready to do the move.
The move.
You must be below 200 mph for it to work....break turn, chopped zoom, etc.
Verticle line up. Chop to flaps 2 nothces, easy stick forward, Right rudder/left roll to stall, left rudder/wep on. You will have to learn to "feather" all the conrol surfaces and throttle together to get the right mix of control.
For overshoots and escapes you do the same thing but use no flaps and just wing stall ( stick back left/right and opposite rudder). A "controlled" snap roll. Yu can control the heading change by pushing stick forward at different parts of the roll.
It is best to be looking behind you in the verticle. On the pull up when you see them lag behind ( appear to float under your tail moving to your non vissible low six) This is the sign of an overshoot situation. Now you hit the brakes ( chop to flaps) and pull the maneuver. Eventually you will be able to know where they are and how to come out of the verticle with your nose pointing at them.
This maneuver is very handy and is the basis for almost all 109 "majik moves". I call it the "sleadge hammer" after the aerobatic move "headhammer" and the fact that if you do it right the other gets a cockpit full of taters....kaaaaabooom. The sleadge is different in that it involves more of a snap roll. A verticle snap roll if you like.
Agent360
Thanks for your answer and everybody else's. To try to clear up my question a little bit...
*I am in a 109, and I'm fighting a P-51. I decided to pull up to the vertical and dive down on him, he matches my move and we're canopy to canopy, he enters a stall and drop downs. My question is, what's a faster move? Pulling on the stick and diving down on him? Or use the "Flip trick Maneuver" as explained by Evenhaim?
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Exactly how fast should it be done? Can you try to give me a time limit on the entire process?
Thanks for your answer and everybody else's. To try to clear up my question a little bit...
*I am in a 109, and I'm fighting a P-51. I decided to pull up to the vertical and dive down on him, he matches my move and we're canopy to canopy, he enters a stall and drop downs. My question is, what's a faster move? Pulling on the stick and diving down on him? Or use the "Flip trick Maneuver" as explained by Evenhaim?
Depends how much airspeed you have when you decide to reverse. If you have very little airspeed (say under 100 indicated) a hammerhead type of move or wing-over is really the best way to go; pull too hard back on the stick when your very slow and you may well get into a spin. Its best to let the plane do the work for you (let the nose pendulum over) and just tiny stick inputs to coax it along the way, rather than try to man-handle the nose around and over using elevator. If you have plenty of airspeed, then using the elevator to loop over may well be the better option.
It sounds like you're trying to rope them purely in the vert. I would be more inclined to rope them by way of spiral-climb, especially in a 109K. IMO, its a much safer option, and easier to reverse back onto them with a wing-over.
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Anybody who thinks the P38 has nasty stall characteristics should spend more time flying a Mossie... Mossies stall hard and brutally.
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Amen Dave. On a side note i have been meaning to send you those mossy films (if indeed i am not too late). Have been using a borrowed laptop last few months till i can earn some cash for a PC, so things have been falling behind. Appologies for that sir.
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Anybody who thinks the P38 has nasty stall characteristics should spend more time flying a Mossie... Mossies stall hard and brutally.
Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included) ;)
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Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included) ;)
actually i have footage of you flying said b38!
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Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included) ;)
I see a lot in this thread have twin engine envy ;)
ack-ack
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I see a lot in this thread have twin engine envy ;)
ack-ack
I like the twin engine warp, one throttle closed other full at top of climb throw it into a spin. Can't hit a thing because of the warps. Even more effective then the 190 stir. :rolleyes:
<S>...-Gixer
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Only recently I've had the pleasure of playing with my home built dual throttle. I've done the manuver you describe, and it isn't gamey at all as it was done historically. Now, granted a real pilot may be disoriented from such a move but it was performed.
Here is a quote Guppy/Corky was nice enough to post for me in a private forum.
I came across this comment in the back of "Twelve to One" It's by Elliot Summers who was an ace and Squadron CO of the 432nd FS, 475th FG
"If caught by the enemy and you have plenty of altitude, the trick of chopping one throttle and applying aileron and rudder will lose him."
At the top of a climb, I use opposing aileron, I cut one throttle briefly and then cut both. I tap the opposing throttle to recover and in doing so it performs a perfect hammerhead. I never cut one throttle and spiral down, and lose precious alt and speed.
The only time I cut one throttle and perform an out of plane manuver is when I see something behind me and is so close that I cannot evade. I can count on one hand how many times I've done it, and I've had this dual throttle for over a month now.
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I've done the manuver you describe, and it isn't gamey at all as it was done historically.
Ok this is were you are confusing reality to a game, yes in reality nice move. In game causes warps very much unlike reality.
<S>...-Gixer
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Frankly, I'm going to keep doing it... I've asked the experienced community in the past about it, and I have absolutely no guilt about performing the move.
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I don't care whether you do or not and what you've thought over to work around any guilt. I'm just stating the difference in it's effect between a maneuver in reality compared to this cartoon environment. That and the maneuver in reality was far more subtle then the crazy warp inducing spins you can perform here. Even the "experienced community" can't deny that one.
Generally I find that if I just lob a single 37mm round into the centre of the spin I often hit something warps or not. :D
<S>...-Gixer
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Just curious:
"That and the maneuver in reality was far more subtle then the crazy warp inducing spins you can perform here."
How do you know this?
"Generally I find that if I just lob a single 37mm round into the centre of the spin I often hit something warps or not."
Warping normally describes the movement on an aircraft from point A to point B in a manner that is physically impossible. Is he actually doing this, or just spinning as in your description "the centre of the spin"?
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Just curious:
"That and the maneuver in reality was far more subtle then the crazy warp inducing spins you can perform here."
How do you know this?
"Generally I find that if I just lob a single 37mm round into the centre of the spin I often hit something warps or not."
Warping normally describes the movement on an aircraft from point A to point B in a manner that is physically impossible. Is he actually doing this, or just spinning as in your description "the centre of the spin"?
Because the fastest spin I've seen was by a Russian acrobatics pilot in a specially built plane for the task. The last throttle closed one open spin that I saw in the MA by a P38 would put that acrobatics plane to shame, it was more like the spin of a RC plane with no vertical or lateral movement. And I doubt that a WW2 P38 could top that in reality without ripping the wings off and blacking out.
As for the warps, it doesn't cause point A point B warps like a bad connection, but throws off your aim like fish tailing or 190s stick stirring rolls.
As for the shot. If you completely ignore what your looking at, estimate where the plane will be in space and along with good timing you can fire a single round and it will hit. With the spinning 38 generally they have very little if at all movement in any direction so you only need to make a small adjustment and fire.
But really, I'm not interested in a anti P38 argument. Just the concept of some historical maneuver being applied here where compared to reality it's impact is warps not ACM.
<S>...-Gixer
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As for the shot. If you completely ignore what your looking at, estimate where the plane will be in space and along with good timing you can fire a single round and it will hit. [...] But really, I'm not interested in a anti P38 argument. Just the concept of some historical maneuver being applied here where compared to reality it's impact is warps not ACM.
So the only problem you have is aesthetic? All you have to do is shoot one tater, doesn't seem like there's anything worth complaining about.
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I don't ever see warping when someone does that. All I see is someone who's desperate and will soon be dead.
You are correct. Chop throttle and fire into the center of the rotation and they are an easy kill.
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it seems funny to me but i have some trouble hitting a stalling plane.
ill rope a guy and he'll drop of and stall as im coming back down ofted the spin changes i over adjust and go right by. either that or i ram straight into him trying to get the shot. im thinking im lot leaving myself enough vertical room to get the shot or im fliping over on the enemy too soon.
what u guys thinK?
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Because the fastest spin I've seen was by a Russian acrobatics pilot in a specially built plane for the task. The last throttle closed one open spin that I saw in the MA by a P38 would put that acrobatics plane to shame, it was more like the spin of a RC plane with no vertical or lateral movement. And I doubt that a WW2 P38 could top that in reality without ripping the wings off and blacking out.
As for the warps, it doesn't cause point A point B warps like a bad connection, but throws off your aim like fish tailing or 190s stick stirring rolls.
As for the shot. If you completely ignore what your looking at, estimate where the plane will be in space and along with good timing you can fire a single round and it will hit. With the spinning 38 generally they have very little if at all movement in any direction so you only need to make a small adjustment and fire.
But really, I'm not interested in a anti P38 argument. Just the concept of some historical maneuver being applied here where compared to reality it's impact is warps not ACM.
<S>...-Gixer
How many guys do you think are flying 38 with dual throttles? :) I sure don't. Granted most of the time one of my engines is shot out, but I know unintentionally I've snap rolled my 38G. It's probably more of a high speed stall where the wing drops and I ride the rudder to keep the roll going, but it's quick.
All Del was trying to figure out was if the move was gamey. When I came across the quote, it seemed to confirm it wasn't. Since he's gotten good with the dual throttle, why not use it?
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Its a method that was used by real pilots, a high speed stall. I would not consider it gamey, he remains in control the entire time. Just fire into the center and the problems solved.
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A way to get out of those devilish spins in the 38 is to simply press "x".
I didn't know about it until recently either.